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Mathematical proof that nightblades are over-performing (How to increase your DPS)
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db0ssman✭✭✭I meant 30% nerf to that ability, not to overall dps. Sorry that wasn't clear.Starfire Protocol lvl 50 NB Redmage healer - Main + Master Crafter
Gives Good Heed lvl 50 Warden Super Buff Healer
Crafty Smyth lvl 50 Stamblade Poison Assassin - Farmer
Everyon's Pal Adin lvl 44 Templar Splash Healer
Stands Against Danger lvl 16 DK Tank -ex mule
Matriarch Tamer lvl 18 Baby Sorc Healer0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: ». NB don't have a nice DoT like sorc or templar,
What does this mean? If you mean mag and you don't count path, then cripple is the other class dot for nbs. Temps have sunfire and shards. Sorcs have liquid lightning and the scamp. Non pet sorcs have hauntinf curse as well. All classes have at least 2 mag dots.
It means, as you state, that with a NB I don't have a ground casting ability like liquid lightning, which is really helpful if you are soloing a delve or public dungeon. You cannot compare cripple, which is more of a single target ability (at least not like a ground ability), to liquid or shards. So you have a totally different gameplay and need to play accordingly. That's what I meant, because liquid or shard are really helpful, that's why I use Path of Darkness, which is a pity they are getting rid of the damage, 'cause it was the only thing somewhat comparable to liquid or shard.
you are aware there are morphs to path of darkness, right? one that adds damage, like you are rambling about, that is Twisting Path and the other adds healing, Refreshing Path. now if you are using Refreshing Path right you get damage and healing, something that the other ground based aoes do not have. next patch, you will have to choose between damage or healing.
and for overland content, yes, crippling grash is more then enough, when i am soloing for skyshard pr when i was grinding the psijic skill line, i barely ever swapped bars, my front bar is inner light, crippling grasp, Merciless Resolve, Impale, swallow soul and ulti is the fire destro. this is more then enough dps to make all overland content trivial, if you know have to get out of red.
on topic, thank you @troomarfor the detailed response. but this-Solo parses are pointless for this hypotheses, I won't post any solo parses here.
when people ask for a "parse", it is the common parlance of the game that this is self buffed, no group. with full group backing, of course you can hit those numbers. right now a nightblade can hit those without a group. or close to it.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on September 26, 2018 4:59PM1 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I mean your math looks good and mathy... But 62k as a wood elf seems a little not accurate. I'm also going to assume you went for maximum cheese seeing as these numbers are unrealistic without trying hard to cheese it.Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info0 -
troomar✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »when people ask for a "parse", it is the common parlance of the game that this is self buffed, no group. with full group backing, of course you can hit those numbers. right now a nightblade can hit those without a group
Solo parses are pointless because every class have different access to buffs, debuffs and regeneration. It's even more pointless to compare two solo parses of different classes.
If someone says that nightblades are over-performing and this argument is based on solo parses, then I have nothing to say
Yes.2 -
Leocaran✭✭✭
There's a correct word here: his math 'looks' good. Because it's nonsense. It started ok, until he got to this:I mean your math looks good and mathy...
and especially thisNow, when we do our rotation, we spend our pool resource. Because DMG_dot = const, DEG_dot is const too, thereforeDMG_dot + DEG_dot = const
which is a complete and utter nonsense because he adds damage per second to resource drain per second, these are different quantities, they have different units, their sum means nothing, you can't add them. You can say though that damage per second is proportional to abilities' cost per second, but you still can't add them. And so all his further findings based on that 'math' are baseless and probably completely wrong. I won't spend my time on them.For the whole fight, our overall DMG is combination of our DMG per rotation and our degeneration, thusDMG_fight = N * DMG + N * DEG, whereEdited by Leocaran on September 26, 2018 6:18PM6 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »I just want to know the scenarios for your 62k parses...
The number is not interesting. What is interesting is that I achieve it with two completely different setups proving my hypotheses
The number is absolutely essential to all subsequent calculations!
Classes with an execute will achieve higher parses on lower health targets (and vice-versa) because the target enters execute more quickly, dramatically and exponentially increasing damage output in a shorter amount of time.Edited by waitwhat on September 26, 2018 6:32PMPS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."1 -
troomar✭✭✭✭which is a complete and utter nonsense because he adds damage per second to resource drain per second, these are different quantities, they have different units, their sum means nothing, you can't add them. You can say though that damage per second is proportional to abilities' cost per second, but you still can't add them. And so all his further findings based on that 'math' are baseless and probably completely wrong. I won't spend my time on them.
DMG is not damage per second, it's your damage per 1 cycle of your rotation.
DEG is your degeneration of your main pool per 1 cycle of your rotation.
What you fail to understand is that the sing "+" is not algebraic. I don't add these functions together to a number, they are still apart in my final sum.Yes.0 -
troomar✭✭✭✭The number is absolutely essential to all subsequent calculations!
Well, these are my hypotheses, so find your own numbers and prove me wrong
You have all numbers you need in my first post:
WoodElf stamSorc, 2100 regen
Redguard stamSorc, 900 regen
Both setups result in 62k (For me at least. For you it can be different number, but it should be the same for both setups).
EDIT: Well, theoretically, Redguard should be better, because DEG_Redguard < DEG_WoodElf, so if you want to be especially precise, use these numbers:
WoodElf stamSorc, 2100 regen
WoodElf stamSorc, 900 regenEdited by troomar on September 26, 2018 7:43PMYes.0 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If I'm getting this right, NBs are more efficient because their drain<=regen, thus rendering hypothesis 1 invalid, and so by having better LA weaves, they can do more dps?
This is exactly what I claim. But it's because of the proc skill without any cost benefiting from light attacks, not the LA weaving itself.How do siphinoning attacks play into this, being presumably an internal DEF skill?
The skill follows the same mechanics as other skills and thus are not exception to hypothesis 1. It gives you resources via light attacks, so it's basically a cost reduction skill. The cost reduction is just tied to your light attack weaving (aka player's skill), and not just passivelly as on other classes. This skill is OK.Also, does this mean we will stop being the exception to hypothesis 1 in the next patch when the merciless proc will have a cost?
That's a hard question I'm not able to fully answer. This is a grey area, because so far I've been recognizing only active skills, not the skills that rely on procs (note that sorcerers have also 1 such skill). Hovever, in my theory, the answer is yes.
Thank you for replying, it will be interesting to see how much of an effect the merciless proc cost will have--I, for one, hope your premise will still be valid.0 -
SirDopey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Donnasnowheart_ESO wrote: »Why do ppl keep saying NB rotation is hard? They get rewarded for weaving which every class should be doing anyway yet other classes have nothing that provides a massive damage spike for doing the same thing on top of NBs currently having access to the best sustain? It really bugs me still to see stuff like "NB deserve high numbers because its rotation is harder". If anything NBs have an advantage over others by being rewarded for something every class should do to obtain optimal dps.
If you play a NB like the other classes, where you have can have a set rotation memorized in your head (or macro'd) you won't get close to hitting the high numbers NBs can get and you'll be sitting either even or below what you can do with other classes. NB's require a fluid rotation that proc's assassin's will everytime it's up, as soon as its up, to achieve those huge numbers which can't be done with a x,y,z,z rinse and repeat rotation.
I feel like if you were really competent at a NB you would already know this, so either you're playing it wrong or you don't play one at allEdited by SirDopey on September 26, 2018 9:50PMNA PC | AD
xx Doc Holliday xx0 -
SirDopey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: ». NB don't have a nice DoT like sorc or templar,
What does this mean? If you mean mag and you don't count path, then cripple is the other class dot for nbs. Temps have sunfire and shards. Sorcs have liquid lightning and the scamp. Non pet sorcs have hauntinf curse as well. All classes have at least 2 mag dots.
It means, as you state, that with a NB I don't have a ground casting ability like liquid lightning, which is really helpful if you are soloing a delve or public dungeon. You cannot compare cripple, which is more of a single target ability (at least not like a ground ability), to liquid or shards. So you have a totally different gameplay and need to play accordingly. That's what I meant, because liquid or shard are really helpful, that's why I use Path of Darkness, which is a pity they are getting rid of the damage, 'cause it was the only thing somewhat comparable to liquid or shard.
you are aware there are morphs to path of darkness, right? one that adds damage, like you are rambling about, that is Twisting Path and the other adds healing, Refreshing Path. now if you are using Refreshing Path right you get damage and healing, something that the other ground based aoes do not have. next patch, you will have to choose between damage or healing.
and for overland content, yes, crippling grash is more then enough, when i am soloing for skyshard pr when i was grinding the psijic skill line, i barely ever swapped bars, my front bar is inner light, crippling grasp, Merciless Resolve, Impale, swallow soul and ulti is the fire destro. this is more then enough dps to make all overland content trivial, if you know have to get out of red.
on topic, thank you @troomarfor the detailed response. but this-Solo parses are pointless for this hypotheses, I won't post any solo parses here.
when people ask for a "parse", it is the common parlance of the game that this is self buffed, no group. with full group backing, of course you can hit those numbers. right now a nightblade can hit those without a group. or close to it.
Right. Cause Templar's don't have that ground AOE that heals, damages AND offers a purge synergy?
While the change brings Path into line with DK's Ash Cloud, I feel if ZOS is being authentic about having ground based aoe's consistent in either doing damage or healing then Ritual needs to be Nerfed as well.NA PC | AD
xx Doc Holliday xx0 -
SirDopey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »when people ask for a "parse", it is the common parlance of the game that this is self buffed, no group. with full group backing, of course you can hit those numbers. right now a nightblade can hit those without a group
Solo parses are pointless because every class have different access to buffs, debuffs and regeneration. It's even more pointless to compare two solo parses of different classes.
If someone says that nightblades are over-performing and this argument is based on solo parses, then I have nothing to say
I feel like you should update your original post then to state that you do 62k Group DPS. People might actually take you a little bit more seriously then...
But I agree with solo parses not being a true reflection of a class' ability.NA PC | AD
xx Doc Holliday xx1 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: ». NB don't have a nice DoT like sorc or templar,
What does this mean? If you mean mag and you don't count path, then cripple is the other class dot for nbs. Temps have sunfire and shards. Sorcs have liquid lightning and the scamp. Non pet sorcs have hauntinf curse as well. All classes have at least 2 mag dots.
It means, as you state, that with a NB I don't have a ground casting ability like liquid lightning, which is really helpful if you are soloing a delve or public dungeon. You cannot compare cripple, which is more of a single target ability (at least not like a ground ability), to liquid or shards. So you have a totally different gameplay and need to play accordingly. That's what I meant, because liquid or shard are really helpful, that's why I use Path of Darkness, which is a pity they are getting rid of the damage, 'cause it was the only thing somewhat comparable to liquid or shard.
you are aware there are morphs to path of darkness, right? one that adds damage, like you are rambling about, that is Twisting Path and the other adds healing, Refreshing Path. now if you are using Refreshing Path right you get damage and healing, something that the other ground based aoes do not have. next patch, you will have to choose between damage or healing.
and for overland content, yes, crippling grash is more then enough, when i am soloing for skyshard pr when i was grinding the psijic skill line, i barely ever swapped bars, my front bar is inner light, crippling grasp, Merciless Resolve, Impale, swallow soul and ulti is the fire destro. this is more then enough dps to make all overland content trivial, if you know have to get out of red.
on topic, thank you @troomarfor the detailed response. but this-Solo parses are pointless for this hypotheses, I won't post any solo parses here.
when people ask for a "parse", it is the common parlance of the game that this is self buffed, no group. with full group backing, of course you can hit those numbers. right now a nightblade can hit those without a group. or close to it.
Right. Cause Templar's don't have that ground AOE that heals, damages AND offers a purge synergy?
While the change brings Path into line with DK's Ash Cloud, I feel if ZOS is being authentic about having ground based aoe's consistent in either doing damage or healing then Ritual needs to be Nerfed as well.
Ritual of retribution is not a dps viable tool. It ticks every 2 seconds and lasts for 12. Meaning that the standard 8 second rotation does not work with it, considering its high cost. Look at any recent magplar DPS builds. They do not have that skill on the bar. Every magblade had refreshing path, if they knew what they were doing.0 -
SirDopey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: ». NB don't have a nice DoT like sorc or templar,
What does this mean? If you mean mag and you don't count path, then cripple is the other class dot for nbs. Temps have sunfire and shards. Sorcs have liquid lightning and the scamp. Non pet sorcs have hauntinf curse as well. All classes have at least 2 mag dots.
It means, as you state, that with a NB I don't have a ground casting ability like liquid lightning, which is really helpful if you are soloing a delve or public dungeon. You cannot compare cripple, which is more of a single target ability (at least not like a ground ability), to liquid or shards. So you have a totally different gameplay and need to play accordingly. That's what I meant, because liquid or shard are really helpful, that's why I use Path of Darkness, which is a pity they are getting rid of the damage, 'cause it was the only thing somewhat comparable to liquid or shard.
you are aware there are morphs to path of darkness, right? one that adds damage, like you are rambling about, that is Twisting Path and the other adds healing, Refreshing Path. now if you are using Refreshing Path right you get damage and healing, something that the other ground based aoes do not have. next patch, you will have to choose between damage or healing.
and for overland content, yes, crippling grash is more then enough, when i am soloing for skyshard pr when i was grinding the psijic skill line, i barely ever swapped bars, my front bar is inner light, crippling grasp, Merciless Resolve, Impale, swallow soul and ulti is the fire destro. this is more then enough dps to make all overland content trivial, if you know have to get out of red.
on topic, thank you @troomarfor the detailed response. but this-Solo parses are pointless for this hypotheses, I won't post any solo parses here.
when people ask for a "parse", it is the common parlance of the game that this is self buffed, no group. with full group backing, of course you can hit those numbers. right now a nightblade can hit those without a group. or close to it.
Right. Cause Templar's don't have that ground AOE that heals, damages AND offers a purge synergy?
While the change brings Path into line with DK's Ash Cloud, I feel if ZOS is being authentic about having ground based aoe's consistent in either doing damage or healing then Ritual needs to be Nerfed as well.
Ritual of retribution is not a dps viable tool. It ticks every 2 seconds and lasts for 12. Meaning that the standard 8 second rotation does not work with it, considering its high cost. Look at any recent magplar DPS builds. They do not have that skill on the bar. Every magblade had refreshing path, if they knew what they were doing.
Oh right, so it only matters how well it fits into a rotation when considering how consistent something is with other class' abilities???NA PC | AD
xx Doc Holliday xx0 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭The number is absolutely essential to all subsequent calculations!
Well, these are my hypotheses, so find your own numbers and prove me wrong
You have all numbers you need in my first post:
WoodElf stamSorc, 2100 regen
Redguard stamSorc, 900 regen
Both setups result in 62k (For me at least. For you it can be different number, but it should be the same for both setups).
EDIT: Well, theoretically, Redguard should be better, because DEG_Redguard < DEG_WoodElf, so if you want to be especially precise, use these numbers:
WoodElf stamSorc, 2100 regen
WoodElf stamSorc, 900 regen
@troomar
You're wrong. There's no other way to say it.
I don't have all the numbers I need. Everything you post is mathematically meaningless in evaluating your theoretical parses without the starting value of the target.
And frankly: post videos or these parses didn't happen.PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."1 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno This is a troll thread. Please close it.PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."2 -
clv✭✭✭
in what world does 12% extra stam regen on a wood elf turn into 1200 more regen lmao
burden of proof's on you to produce the numbers, it's your hypothesis therefore the onus is on you to show more than a single parse and some weird napkin math calculations
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Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭My hypotheses is that you got clam dipped or the tea bag society after a nb put you down ~
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troomar✭✭✭✭I'm sorry I'm answering some posts a bit later, but I didn't have much time and I rather spent the time in the gameMerlin13KAGL wrote: »While your mathematical model is pretty well spot on, it also assumes perfection.
That is one point I'm aware of. There will always be a difference between a model and a practical test. Something can work on a paper with perfect conditions, but will fail miserably in a practical test or in a production. How much it affects my conclusions is remaining hiddenMerlin13KAGL wrote: »While this is the sort of thing ZoS should be running classes, skills, and sets through via brute force to see what the max potential of a given combo is and then using that as some kind of baseline for adjustments, I'm pretty sure they don't.
I'm pretty sure they have such data and they actively use them. I actually believe they make decisions based on such data. My theory is about the fact that there are other (hidden) mechanics that affect class balance. Maybe I'm naive, but I hope nerfs and buffs are not randomly distributed.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »Ideally, you spec the maximum amount of damage possible and be at exactly zero resources at fight's end. Since there are other variables: lag, timing differences, HP, therefore length of fight, other mechanics interrupting flow, these things vary considerably.
It's still the difference between a theoretical model and a practical test. I'm not sure if it's a good idea to include these variables in the model, because its length would probably exceed reasonable length for this forum and most people would probably wouldn't be able to interpret them anyway.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »The other thing not factored in is the damage vs cost ratio of a given skill. Higher would obviously be better, but then you have to factor in cast time (DPS equivalent) and other potential synergies a skill may offer or take advantage of.
I was honestly surprised nobody but you questioned this aspect, because it's a crucial question. I claim that DMG + DEG = const., but I provided only 2 sets of values to test it and only 1 class. There are 2 possible results:
1) I'm right and it's approx. constant
2) I'm wrong and the function is a bit convex or concave, or something between.
On the other hand, if I'm wrong, META stamina sustain for DPS is also wrong (it doesn't apply to bursts, just to parses).I feel like you should update your original post then to state that you do 62k Group DPS. People might actually take you a little bit more seriously then...
Fair point, I will update my original post.I don't have all the numbers I need.
What numbers are you missing? You can see my build, I posted it earlier in this thread.in what world does 12% extra stam regen on a wood elf turn into 1200 more regen lmao
I didn't say anything like that, you are probably imagining things. You should read my whole original post first. OFF will be lower for 2100 regen, and of course higher for 900 regen.
Yes.1