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Mathematical proof that nightblades are over-performing (How to increase your DPS)

troomar
troomar
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Lately, I've had some discussions about how to increase my DPS. People have been telling me - try to squeeze more skills in your rotation (specifically your spammable) or try to count your light attack (LA) ratio and improve it. Well, I tried and failed. My DPS didn't increase. When I thought about it more, I called it BS and here is a proof why.

Who am I? A woodelf stamSorc with 2100 base stamina regeneration parsing 62k (party) DPS. And a redguard stamSorc with 900 base stamina regeneration parsing 62k (party) DPS. My goal is 65k DPS. Nice to meet you.


Please note that all calculations are valid for both static or dynamic rotations. It does *NOT* apply to rotations with proc skills, specifically to nightblades. I will explain the reason later.

1) Let's define some skills:

S_dot - A skill with or without initial damage which main component is damage over time
S_spam - A skill with or without damage over time which main component is direct damage, aka your spammable
LA - Light attack
HA - Heavy attack

Let's say our rotation is a static one and assume that we use LA between each skill:

S_dot > S_dot > S_dot > (swap) > S_dot > S_dot > S_spam > ... > S_spam > (swap)

There is no point to overcast your S_dot abilities, because you won't get any more DPS from it (except the initial damage it does, but for the cost it will always be a DPS loss). So as long as we keep uptime of our S_dot abilities at 100%, we can get more DPS only by including more S_spam abilities in our rotation.

Let's define some more abbreviations:
DMG - Our overall damage within 1 cycle of our rotation
DMG_spam - Our overall damage within 1 cycle of our rotation for S_spam abilities
DMG_dot - Our overall damage within 1 cycle of our rotation for S_dot abilities

It's obvious that
DMG = DMG_dot + DMG_spam.

Because S_dot abilities have 100% uptime, we can say that
DMG_dot = const.

It means you can't increase your DPS by spamming S_dot abilities or casting them faster or more often.

This all leads to an easy conclusion that
DMG = DMG_spam + const

And people will pragmatically tell me that the more S_spam abilities I cast, the better DPS_spam I get, and thus I get better DMG. Is it really true? No, it isn't, because this applies only to 1 cycle of your rotation! For the whole fight, there are more variables, so let's define them:

R_regen - Our main pool regeneration. It includes our base regeneration, skills (redguard), external resource gain (orbs and other synergies), and other mechanics in the game (regeneration areas)
R_drain - Our main pool drain. It includes our base drain (skills), external resource drain (block, roll dodge), and other mechanics in the game (degeneration areas)
DEG = R_drain - R_regen - Our overall main pool degeneration
DEG_dot - Our overall main pool degeneration for S_dot abilities
DEG_spam - Our overall main pool degeneration for S_spam abilities

I intentionally call it degeneration, because you want R_regen < R_drain, so the formula DEG = R_drain - R_regen gives positives numbers. We will work with it soon, and working with positive numbers is easier.

Now, when we do our rotation, we spend our pool resource. Because DMG_dot = const, DEG_dot is const too, therefore
DMG_dot + DEG_dot = const

So we can work just with DMG_spam and DEG_spam. The point is that the more S_spam we put into our rotation, the greater DEG_spam is (and also your DMG_spam). Due to R_regen < R_drain, we will definitely reach a point where we're out of our main pool, so we have to start doing HA, which means slowing down our rotation. For the whole fight, our overall DMG is combination of our DMG per rotation and our degeneration, thus
DMG_fight = N * DMG + N * DEG, where
N is number of rotations during the whole fight.

The greater N is, the greater impact our DEG has. Simply said, the less bursty combat, the more DEG impacts us (we don't need regeneration for a short burst).

Let's explode our formula:
DMG_fight = N * DMG + N * DEG = N * (DMG + DEG) = N * (DMG_spam + DEG_spam) + const

We said that DMG is inversely proportional to DEG, so for N -> inf., DMG is balanced by DEG.
So we can say:
Hypothesis 1:
For reasonably long fight, our DPS will remain the same no matter how many spammable abilities we squeeze into our rotation.

Mathematically:
DMG_fight(n) = sum(1..n) {DMG(n) + DEG(n)} = const,
for n -> inf., DEG > 0

It has some limitations and conditions, but I will explain them later.

2) There is another conclusion to the first point which is a matter of discussion often. The question is simple: how much regeneration should I have?

Well, let's see. We said we expect our characters have DEG > 0. With higher regeneration, our offensive stats drop. So lets define these variables:

OFF - Sum of our offensive abilities, including spell / weapon damage, max resource pool, crit rate, and external buffs
DEF - sum of our defensive abilities, including spell / physical resistance, max health pool, health regeneration, and external buffs
R_regen - (see above)

Because the number of points we can put into these stats is limited, we can say:
OFF + DEF + R_regen = const

For most players running trials, Def stat is defined pretty precisely and we can expect that most of the players have similar defenses, like 17k Health. So we can't reasonably lower our defense to increase our offense. Thus we can presume:
DEF = const.

While I know we can work around it a bit, the effect is small and in a group of end game players, there won't be any difference in Def stats anyway.

That means we can say:
OFF + R_regen = const.

Which is obvious, the more OFF stats you put your points in, the less regeneration you have and vice versa. But how does it apply to our DMG_fight, aka your overall damage?

In part 1 we said it doesn't matter how many S_spam you put into your rotation. But the truth is that this is limited by your DEG. So with lower DEG (higher regeneration) we have our OFF lower, but it also means we can put more skills into our rotation, because DEG allows us to do it. And, of course, the higher DEG we have (lower regeneration), the fewer skills we can cast. You can easily see that it equalizes itself, thus:
Hypothesis 2:
For reasonably long fight, our DPS will remain the same no matter how much regeneration we have.

Mathematically:
DMG_fight(n) = sum(1..n) {OFF(n) + DEG(n)} = const, for n -> inf., DEG > 0


Now it raises some questions:
1) Why META builds recommend low regeneration then?
It has generally two reasons:
A - Burst damage. Burst damage is very important in some trials to deal with mechanics. See the first hypothesis again:
DMG_fight(n) = sum(1..n) {DMG(n) + DEG(n)} = const, for n -> inf., DEG > 0

But for burst it does not work, because n -> 1, so it's rather DMG_fight(n) = sum(1..1) {DMG(n)}, diminishing the DEG part, because we don't care about our DEG, wejust need to burn fast.

From the second hypothesis
DMG_fight(n) = sum(1..n) {OFF(n) + DEG(n)} = const, for n -> inf., DEG > 0

Again, for n -> 1, the formula is rather DMG_fight(n) = sum(1..1) {OFF(n)}

Which means DMG = OFF for DEG -> inf.
High DEG (low regeneration) means we can invest more in OFF and thus has better burst.

B - Better control of our DPS and a better potential DPS overall.

Being able to deplete our resource pool is sometimes useful (apart from burst damage), it's again connected to mechanics. Imagine the boss gets a huge shield every 30 seconds for 10 seconds. For these 10 seconds we have to perform another mechanics which does not need much of our resource pool. The best strategy is to deplete our whole resource during these 30 seconds, so we can regenerate it back during the next 10 seconds. We just try to utilize our DPS to the max. If our pool is at its maximum, all the regeneration is wasted. The more regeneration we waste, the more DPS loss. Therefore the lower regeneration, the lower overall DPS the loss is. Both hypotheses still work, but with connection to mechanics, higher DEG (lower regeneration) is usually better.

Note. This does not apply generally, sometimes the mechanics favor higher regeneration over higher damage (Hel Ra upper boss), but it's quite scarce.
Note 2. This is also a reason why nerfing Dark Deal for Sorcerers is such a big deal even in PvE (although it's not used much).

2) What about Bloodthirsty traits?

Well, both hypotheses still apply, we just need to apply them separately for 100% - 25% HP of the boss and for the last 25%.

Ideally, if we want the best DPS, we have to start with full resource pool and end with 0 in our resource pool. It's obvious from both formulas. But for bloodthirsty, we get extra DPS boost for the last 25%, so we actually want to be at 100% of our resource pool on 25% of the boss HP, so we can utilize our DEG to the max.

3) So how do I increase my DPS?

A - Be nightblade. No, really, it works and it's quite obvious from my hypotheses. Look at the first hypothesis again:
DMG_fight(n) = sum(1..n) {DMG(n) + DEG(n)} = const, for n -> inf., DEG > 0

Can you see the condition DEG > 0? If your DEG <= 0, then the formula does not work and the hypothesis does not apply. Nightblades have a proc skill that doesn't cost any resources. Then of course the more such skills you cast, the better DPS you have, effectively overcoming the limitation. With DEG <= 0, you can squeeze more S_spam without any punishment. Therefore the mentioned Light attack ratio actually matters!

Can it be done for other classes? Well, technically yes, but if you look at the second hypothesis - DMG_fight(n) = sum(1..n) {OFF(n) + DEG(n)} = const - our OFF will be so low, that our overall DPS will be lower then with DEG > 0. And over regenerating means loss of DPS.

As a bonus, this is a proof that nightblades are over-performing :)

B - Practice your rotation. What I didn't explicitly point out are secondary contributors to the DPS. It does not contradict my hypotheses, but it's included in the DMG part, actually in both S_dot and S_spam. And it's the mysterious light attack weaving. To get the best possible DPS, we have to light attack weave at 100%. 1 LA per 1 skill. 100% uptime of DOTs. External OFF and DEF buffs. External resource regeneration (healer's job). This is where you get your DPS.

C - Use proc sets. Aha! Here are our loved / hated proc sets. PvPers hate it, PvEers love it. Now you understand why it is like that - it's the same mechanism that works for nightblades - it's DMG without the DEG part! Moreover, some sets require player's skill to utilize them, for example Arms of Relequen. In hands of good players, it's a set that overshadows all other sets. In hands of bad players, it's a bad set.

Yes, you understand it - add resource cost to proc sets and they will stop over-performing. :tired_face:

I will stop here as it's already quite a long post. What do you thing about it?


EDIT: Clarification of DPS parse as it's meant as a parse in a trial party with trial setup.
Edited by troomar on September 27, 2018 3:03PM
Yes.
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    I just want to know the scenarios for your 62k parses...
    Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on September 25, 2018 8:29PM
  • db0ssman
    db0ssman
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    NEEEEEERRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDDD J/K

    If the 0 cost proc you're talking about is the bound bow, rest easy because it is getting a cost in the murkmire patch. It is going from a free use to 1/2 the base cost. Plus they are removing the healing to Refreshing path, which means they might just switch to twisting path and getting a slight dps increase in the rotation from that. Though I don't know how many min/maxers actually use that ability. Also assasination & morphs are getting a 30% increase in cost, which based on your formula of hitting your pools to 0 means that it effectively is getting a 30% nerf due to resource drain.

    I think you are preaching to the choir with ZOS if you say they are overperforming.
    Starfire Protocol lvl 50 NB Redmage healer - Main + Master Crafter
    Gives Good Heed lvl 50 Warden Super Buff Healer
    Crafty Smyth lvl 50 Stamblade Poison Assassin - Farmer
    Everyon's Pal Adin lvl 44 Templar Splash Healer
    Stands Against Danger lvl 16 DK Tank -ex mule
    Matriarch Tamer lvl 18 Baby Sorc Healer
  • troomar
    troomar
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    I just want to know the scenarios for your 62k parses...

    The number is not interesting. What is interesting is that I achieve it with two completely different setups proving my hypotheses :smile:
    Yes.
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    troomar wrote: »
    I just want to know the scenarios for your 62k parses...

    The number is not interesting. What is interesting is that I achieve it with two completely different setups proving my hypotheses :smile:

    I actually do find the scenarios interesting. You are making a math claim about stam DPS. You start by saying a redguard sorc and bosmer NB pull the same DPS. That goes against everything I know about this game, so naturally, I would like to know the variables in those parses, especially considering your conclusion is that one is mathematically better than the other. As it stands now, it appears that your own testing contradicts your calculated results, otherwise you would have pulled more with the NB. Now certainly, i dont think its going to be tough to convince anyone that stamblade is OP, but by your own stated DPS, its actually not...
  • Oakmontowls_ESO
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    Sounds like the stam sorc is over preforming
  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
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    This is actually a brilliant write up.
    0331
    0602
  • SirDopey
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    I'll believe the bosmer parse when you post it.

    What your little maths exercise fails to take into account is skill in applying rotation. While NB's on live (def not pts) have the best potential DPS they're also require the most skill to successfully achieve those numbers. The amount of new & casual NBs I run into everyday that fail to get over 10k dps far, far faar faaaaaaaaar outweighs the number of players I meet that can even hit 30k, let alone >50

    That's not the definition of Overperforming
    NA PC | AD
    xx Doc Holliday xx
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    It really doesn't take all this math to figure out that if you invest enough in to sustain it will beat simply heavy attacking with more DMG stats like blue food vs purple drink.

    On a 6mil test dummy, an optimal parse will see you use at most 1-3 heavy attacks to top yourself up. If you need to do it once every rotation, you've built yourself wrong.

    Ending a 6mil parse with 50% of your pool remaining means you could of used less regen and heavy attack opting for more DMG elsewhere in your build.

    Furthermore. In real fights you have synergys and spots where you aren't spamming your rotation.

    If you got 62k DPS with a wood elf with THAT much recovery vs a redguard... Somethings off. What dummy did you fight? Is this in a group? The MOST amount of DPS I can get with a Stam sorc.. on pts where med armor is buffed is 46k and I used only 3 heavy attacks, could of made it with 2. No group support.

    I just find it hard to believe your wood elf matched redguard.

    Edit: If your final point is that proc sets need to take away from your resource pool, I disagree, they don't crit and proc sets are often worse in PvE besides relequen, currently OP but at least requires a longer fight to get full benefit.

    Also nightblades have some of their costs increased on pts, this post will be a bit out-dated if your pointing at them being op. Their sustain is still great but it's definitely taken a hit. They also require a better deal of skill to pull off those high parses you see compared to a Stam sorc rotation.

    If you check out all the timers for the dots, they don't properly line up. If you actually want 100 % uptime. You need to use a dynamic rotation which doesn't seem worth it for the stress. Rending slashes has a 9 sec timer. Endless hail lasts 10 seconds of dmg, but has about 1.5 sec timer before the DMG starts, reason you want 100 % uptime on endless hail instead of rending slashes is because the DMG increases the longer it's on the floor with a VMA bow, razor caltops is 12 sec. So things don't like up meaning you will almost never have 100 % uptime on dots meaning your equation is a bit off.

    If you have a dynamic rotation where you can manage to keep every dot up 100 % I'd love to see the parse because that is where you will see a DPS increase but rather minimal and not worth it.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on September 26, 2018 6:08AM
    @MashmalloMan - PC NA

    PC Beta - 2400+ CP
  • SienneYviete
    SienneYviete
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    troomar wrote: »
    Who am I? A woodelf stamSorc with 2100 base stamina regeneration parsing 62k DPS. And a redguard stamSorc with 900 base stamina regeneration parsing 62k DPS. My goal is 65k DPS. Nice to meet you.

    You lost me here, without any parses there's far too many variables to support your claims. Also as others have said skill in applying your rotation is the most important factor.
    Delta
    Valheru's
  • Massacre_Wurm
    Massacre_Wurm
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    troomar wrote: »
    Who am I? A woodelf stamSorc with 2100 base stamina regeneration parsing 62k DPS. And a redguard stamSorc with 900 base stamina regeneration parsing 62k DPS. My goal is 65k DPS. Nice to meet you.

    You lost me here, without any parses there's far too many variables to support your claims. Also as others have said skill in applying your rotation is the most important factor.

    Its not. You can have all skill in the world but there is limitations set by game mechanic.

    Anyway we need no proofs. Everybody knows what magblades are over-performing.
  • MashmalloMan
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    troomar wrote: »
    Who am I? A woodelf stamSorc with 2100 base stamina regeneration parsing 62k DPS. And a redguard stamSorc with 900 base stamina regeneration parsing 62k DPS. My goal is 65k DPS. Nice to meet you.

    You lost me here, without any parses there's far too many variables to support your claims. Also as others have said skill in applying your rotation is the most important factor.

    Its not. You can have all skill in the world but there is limitations set by game mechanic.

    Anyway we need no proofs. Everybody knows what magblades are over-performing.

    Yes. Blades are over performing but they are also behind a skill wall. The problem I have is that there isn't an opportunity for other classes to reach the same DMG potential. Why isn't there a difficult option that outputs more DPS for other classes.

    Skill ceiling for other classes needs to raise.

    Also.. proof is required because he made a claim that his 2200 Regen wood elf parsed the same DPS as a redguard with 900 Regen, both at 62k.

    Something smells fishy. The only difference between the 2 races is 11% Regen, redguards have better sustain and max Stam, therefore more DPS, he either got lucky with a parse or he's inflating numbers. 62k DPS on what?? A boss fight?
    @MashmalloMan - PC NA

    PC Beta - 2400+ CP
  • UrbanMonk
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    If only I new that much math and could figure out what you said in the Post...

    To me it seems like a troll as you haven’t clearly given your parameters so that other can test your theory and thus it’s all utter garbage.
    Urban.Monk

    -Monk I- Magden- ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
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  • hakan
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    troomar wrote: »
    Who am I? A woodelf stamSorc with 2100 base stamina regeneration parsing 62k DPS. And a redguard stamSorc with 900 base stamina regeneration parsing 62k DPS. My goal is 65k DPS. Nice to meet you.

    You lost me here, without any parses there's far too many variables to support your claims. Also as others have said skill in applying your rotation is the most important factor.

    Its not. You can have all skill in the world but there is limitations set by game mechanic.

    Anyway we need no proofs. Everybody knows what magblades are over-performing.

    Yes. Blades are over performing but they are also behind a skill wall. The problem I have is that there isn't an opportunity for other classes to reach the same DMG potential. Why isn't there a difficult option that outputs more DPS for other classes.

    Skill ceiling for other classes needs to raise.

    Also.. proof is required because he made a claim that his 2200 Regen wood elf parsed the same DPS as a redguard with 900 Regen, both at 62k.

    Something smells fishy. The only difference between the 2 races is 11% Regen, redguards have better sustain and max Stam, therefore more DPS, he either got lucky with a parse or he's inflating numbers. 62k DPS on what?? A boss fight?

    because that "skill difference" isnt set by zos. they just made the character, but it were the playerbase that unleashed the class' real potential.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    You don't have 2100 base regen on your wood elf. You have 2100 at the end of all your percentage amps. Probably before 20% from pots. And 10% from the minor buff. As other people have stated, evidence is needed. Parses. I follow the thesis, I think, but you lack evidence.
  • Jaimeh
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    If I'm getting this right, NBs are more efficient because their drain<=regen, thus rendering hypothesis 1 invalid, and so by having better LA weaves, they can do more dps? How do siphinoning attacks play into this, being presumably an internal DEF skill? Also, does this mean we will stop being the exception to hypothesis 1 in the next patch when the merciless proc will have a cost?
  • Sparr0w
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    I mean woodelf and redguard aren't that much different, since infused/bloodthirsty are bis traits then the 4% stamina barely counts for anything.

    Also I'd love to see a parse, I'm stuck at 55k and can't seem to get any higher :sweat:

    Ps. :trollface: ?
    @Sparr0w so I get the notification
    Xbox (EU) - l Sparrow x | CP 810+
    DD: All Mag + Stam
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    Tank: NB | DK | Warden
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    Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH + GS
  • Turelus
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    SirDopey wrote: »
    I'll believe the bosmer parse when you post it.

    What your little maths exercise fails to take into account is skill in applying rotation. While NB's on live (def not pts) have the best potential DPS they're also require the most skill to successfully achieve those numbers. The amount of new & casual NBs I run into everyday that fail to get over 10k dps far, far faar faaaaaaaaar outweighs the number of players I meet that can even hit 30k, let alone >50

    That's not the definition of Overperforming
    Confirming that even with four years as a Nightblade my best parses are 40k, I average 25-30k.
    You have to be damn good at rotations and weaving to get the numbers people claim every player is getting.

    This is why it will frustrate me if the balance changes when they come don't focus on that every high end but are a blanket on all players. The new costs will already be a strain on those who can't perfectly sustain via siphoning strikes.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    Sparr0w wrote: »
    I mean woodelf and redguard aren't that much different, since infused/bloodthirsty are bis traits then the 4% stamina barely counts for anything.

    Also I'd love to see a parse, I'm stuck at 55k and can't seem to get any higher :sweat:

    Ps. :trollface: ?

    redguard vs wood elf sustain, the the difference between 792 every 5 seconds on melee vs 21% regen is huge. for the wood elf to beat the the redguard with just that passive(not taking into consideration the other 9% passive regen that redguards have) you would need to have higher then BASE 1509 stamina regen, no dps has that. base regen is 514, then add dubious, 319, that is 809. add in 129 from stormfist, that is 938. then for kicks let's add the serpent mundus, with full gold divines, 363, you get 1301. this is still 200 base regen short.
  • Sparr0w
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    Sparr0w wrote: »
    I mean woodelf and redguard aren't that much different, since infused/bloodthirsty are bis traits then the 4% stamina barely counts for anything.

    Also I'd love to see a parse, I'm stuck at 55k and can't seem to get any higher :sweat:

    Ps. :trollface: ?

    redguard vs wood elf sustain, the the difference between 792 every 5 seconds on melee vs 21% regen is huge. for the wood elf to beat the the redguard with just that passive(not taking into consideration the other 9% passive regen that redguards have) you would need to have higher then BASE 1509 stamina regen, no dps has that. base regen is 514, then add dubious, 319, that is 809. add in 129 from stormfist, that is 938. then for kicks let's add the serpent mundus, with full gold divines, 363, you get 1301. this is still 200 base regen short.

    I meant dps wise, regen yeah redguard beats it but the 4% max stam will equate to less dps difference this patch compared to last patch since stamina pools are generally lower.
    @Sparr0w so I get the notification
    Xbox (EU) - l Sparrow x | CP 810+
    DD: All Mag + Stam
    Heal: Templar | Sorc | NB | Warden | Necro
    Tank: NB | DK | Warden
    Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH
    PC (EU) - Sparrxw | CP 810+
    DD: All Mag + Stam
    Heal: Templar | Sorc
    Tank: DK | NB
    Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH + GS
  • Donnasnowheart_ESO
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    Why do ppl keep saying NB rotation is hard? They get rewarded for weaving which every class should be doing anyway yet other classes have nothing that provides a massive damage spike for doing the same thing on top of NBs currently having access to the best sustain? It really bugs me still to see stuff like "NB deserve high numbers because its rotation is harder". If anything NBs have an advantage over others by being rewarded for something every class should do to obtain optimal dps.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    Sparr0w wrote: »
    Sparr0w wrote: »
    I mean woodelf and redguard aren't that much different, since infused/bloodthirsty are bis traits then the 4% stamina barely counts for anything.

    Also I'd love to see a parse, I'm stuck at 55k and can't seem to get any higher :sweat:

    Ps. :trollface: ?

    redguard vs wood elf sustain, the the difference between 792 every 5 seconds on melee vs 21% regen is huge. for the wood elf to beat the the redguard with just that passive(not taking into consideration the other 9% passive regen that redguards have) you would need to have higher then BASE 1509 stamina regen, no dps has that. base regen is 514, then add dubious, 319, that is 809. add in 129 from stormfist, that is 938. then for kicks let's add the serpent mundus, with full gold divines, 363, you get 1301. this is still 200 base regen short.

    I meant dps wise, regen yeah redguard beats it but the 4% max stam will equate to less dps difference this patch compared to last patch since stamina pools are generally lower.

    Sustain=DPS. The OP shows this.
  • Sparr0w
    Sparr0w
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    Sparr0w wrote: »
    Sparr0w wrote: »
    I mean woodelf and redguard aren't that much different, since infused/bloodthirsty are bis traits then the 4% stamina barely counts for anything.

    Also I'd love to see a parse, I'm stuck at 55k and can't seem to get any higher :sweat:

    Ps. :trollface: ?

    redguard vs wood elf sustain, the the difference between 792 every 5 seconds on melee vs 21% regen is huge. for the wood elf to beat the the redguard with just that passive(not taking into consideration the other 9% passive regen that redguards have) you would need to have higher then BASE 1509 stamina regen, no dps has that. base regen is 514, then add dubious, 319, that is 809. add in 129 from stormfist, that is 938. then for kicks let's add the serpent mundus, with full gold divines, 363, you get 1301. this is still 200 base regen short.

    I meant dps wise, regen yeah redguard beats it but the 4% max stam will equate to less dps difference this patch compared to last patch since stamina pools are generally lower.

    Sustain=DPS. The OP shows this.

    Too much maths for me personally, I just always run dubious/witchmothers and a steal glyph (mag or stam) so sustain is always a bit much no matter the class. My woodelf stamblade has 1650 recovery (with the regen from a stamina pot), then add an infused stam steal glyph 460 on proc & potion popping & siphoning it's rare to drop below 50% stamina.
    @Sparr0w so I get the notification
    Xbox (EU) - l Sparrow x | CP 810+
    DD: All Mag + Stam
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    PC (EU) - Sparrxw | CP 810+
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    Tank: DK | NB
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  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    While your mathematical model is pretty well spot on, it also assumes perfection.

    While this is the sort of thing ZoS should be running classes, skills, and sets through via brute force to see what the max potential of a given combo is and then using that as some kind of baseline for adjustments, I'm pretty sure they don't.

    In theory, it would all start with perfect parses. In practice, they could make adjustments for ceiling and floor based on live data. Sadly, pretty sure they don't do this either.

    Ideally, you spec the maximum amount of damage possible and be at exactly zero resources at fight's end. Since there are other variables: lag, timing differences, HP, therefore length of fight, other mechanics interrupting flow, these things vary considerably.

    ZoS should be using the data available to them, automated testing scenarios, and live confirmation to make adjustments. Until they use what's in front of them intelligently, your theory is solid, but the game-wide results won't change.

    ZoS could also use this to build in trainers to analyze and help people improve their DPS.

    The other thing not factored in is the damage vs cost ratio of a given skill. Higher would obviously be better, but then you have to factor in cast time (DPS equivalent) and other potential synergies a skill may offer or take advantage of.

    In the grand scheme, it's why most builds ultimately gravitate towards what ends up being Meta.

    I think the advice being offered is probably more directed at slight increases in rotation, either resulting in a shorter overall rotation time (assuming you don't hit GCD's perfectly, so your rotation is technically a bit long) to come as close to achieving that perfect rotation cycle.

    The baseline premise is solid, but clearly there is a difference between player results, given the exact same build.

    If you're truly hitting 62k x 2, and it's not just a number for theory's sake, I'm not sure I'd be to worried about it one way or the other.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
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  • Aragorn79
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    I have also been playing NB since I started playing about more than a year ago and am amazed that ppl think NB are OP. I also play other classes by the way but NB as a main. I know I still need to learn to play and practice more, but I find it difficult to increase DPS or even do much damage. NB don't have a nice DoT like sorc or templar, so when I am facing a group of enemies it takes longer to kill. Now that they are nerfing Path of Darkness, which was one of my main side skills as DoT, it will do no damage anymore. What I am trying to say is that the players that are really good can probably squeeze a lot of damage from NB, but for perhaps the majority it takes a lot of skill and practice to even go beyond 18k DPS. Before you trash me, consider that I am not a superb skilled player but also not a total idiot. So as Turelos, comm. ambassador is saying, these changes affect all the NB player base, perhaps because of some OP very skilled players squeezing 1-2K more DPS at times.I will certainly get better in time, but NB has been more difficult to play than other classes, which in my opinion is fine, because I want every class to have a distinct feel and identity to it, no use having all classes harmonizing and doing the same. So I am all out for keeping classes unique. As for NB being OP, it's a matter of perspective and depends on how skilled you are and also how and why you play your game.
    PC EU
    DC D'aryn, Breton Magblade
    DC T'agwyr, Redguard Stamblade
    EP B'eryth, Nord Magsorc
    EP K'ewan, Nord Magplar
    AD L'adaryel, High Elf MagDK
    AD S'eladiel, Wood Elf StamWarden
    DC D'evyn Imperial StamDK
    DC G'avyn Breton MagNecromancer
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    . NB don't have a nice DoT like sorc or templar,

    What does this mean? If you mean mag and you don't count path, then cripple is the other class dot for nbs. Temps have sunfire and shards. Sorcs have liquid lightning and the scamp. Non pet sorcs have hauntinf curse as well. All classes have at least 2 mag dots.
  • db0ssman
    db0ssman
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    Aragorn79 wrote: »
    I have also been playing NB since I started playing about more than a year ago and am amazed that ppl think NB are OP. I also play other classes by the way but NB as a main. I know I still need to learn to play and practice more, but I find it difficult to increase DPS or even do much damage. NB don't have a nice DoT like sorc or templar, so when I am facing a group of enemies it takes longer to kill. Now that they are nerfing Path of Darkness, which was one of my main side skills as DoT, it will do no damage anymore. What I am trying to say is that the players that are really good can probably squeeze a lot of damage from NB, but for perhaps the majority it takes a lot of skill and practice to even go beyond 18k DPS. Before you trash me, consider that I am not a superb skilled player but also not a total idiot. So as Turelos, comm. ambassador is saying, these changes affect all the NB player base, perhaps because of some OP very skilled players squeezing 1-2K more DPS at times.I will certainly get better in time, but NB has been more difficult to play than other classes, which in my opinion is fine, because I want every class to have a distinct feel and identity to it, no use having all classes harmonizing and doing the same. So I am all out for keeping classes unique. As for NB being OP, it's a matter of perspective and depends on how skilled you are and also how and why you play your game.

    This is true on pretty much all forums where the top 1% of the game come to talk about it and that echo chamber produces a pretty skewed view of what the game is like for the average player. I spend my time in game mostly crafting and healing, so I'm more of an average player dps vs a min maxer. I'm pretty happy if I squeeze 20k damage and don't fight again until I come across a mob standing next to a columbine. For that kind of player just dinking around in the world, something like a templar or DK are actually easier to play than a nightblade because they have relatively strong spamable abilities. You can go running around with spears on a templar poking things, use nothing but that abilitiy and basically clear the whole regular game. It's not really until endgame that you start trying to get high dps and factor in weaving, animation canceling, heavy resource management, etc etc. At that point relatively subtle abilities like siphoning strikes becomes really important and the tables flip from templar just being easy button to being left in the dust.

    I think instead of saying there is a higher skill ceiling, it is probably more accurate to say there is a higher skill baseline to use the class and so people who gravitate toward rotations, weaving, min-maxing probably enjoy using NB more and those who want easy button stay away which makes it seem like there is a wider gap than there actually is.
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  • Aragorn79
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    . NB don't have a nice DoT like sorc or templar,

    What does this mean? If you mean mag and you don't count path, then cripple is the other class dot for nbs. Temps have sunfire and shards. Sorcs have liquid lightning and the scamp. Non pet sorcs have hauntinf curse as well. All classes have at least 2 mag dots.

    It means, as you state, that with a NB I don't have a ground casting ability like liquid lightning, which is really helpful if you are soloing a delve or public dungeon. You cannot compare cripple, which is more of a single target ability (at least not like a ground ability), to liquid or shards. So you have a totally different gameplay and need to play accordingly. That's what I meant, because liquid or shard are really helpful, that's why I use Path of Darkness, which is a pity they are getting rid of the damage, 'cause it was the only thing somewhat comparable to liquid or shard.
    Edited by Aragorn79 on September 26, 2018 4:04PM
    PC EU
    DC D'aryn, Breton Magblade
    DC T'agwyr, Redguard Stamblade
    EP B'eryth, Nord Magsorc
    EP K'ewan, Nord Magplar
    AD L'adaryel, High Elf MagDK
    AD S'eladiel, Wood Elf StamWarden
    DC D'evyn Imperial StamDK
    DC G'avyn Breton MagNecromancer
  • BooPerScOOper
    BooPerScOOper
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    Yeah I'm gonna need video proof that a WE StamSorc withe 2100k regen can hit 62K on a 6mil. solo. Not in a raid. SOLO
    Edited by BooPerScOOper on September 26, 2018 4:35PM
  • troomar
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    db0ssman wrote: »
    Also assasination & morphs are getting a 30% increase in cost, which based on your formula of hitting your pools to 0 means that it effectively is getting a 30% nerf due to resource drain.

    It's 30% nerf for the skill itself, but the skill is just a small fraction of your whole DPS (or in this case your DEG), so your overall nerf will be < 30%. I can't say the exact number, because I don't have a formula for the whole rotation, but if I had, I could say exact (theoretical) nerf in %.
    You are making a math claim about stam DPS. You start by saying a redguard sorc and bosmer NB pull the same DPS.

    I'm sorry, but you read it wrong. I'm saying that WoodElf stamSorc with high stamina regeneration is pulling the same DPS as Redguard stamSorc with low stamina regeneration. There is no nightblade involved.
    SirDopey wrote: »
    What your little maths exercise fails to take into account is skill in applying rotation.

    Because this is a theoretical model, I assume perfect rotation. There is no reason why I should include flaws into a theoretical model. Of course, in a practical test, there will be differences in numbers, according to everyone's own perfection.

    The only reasonable addition to the formula about flaws would be how much these functions (both DMG(n) and DEG(n)) are influenced by own player's flaws. Honestly, I can't say for now. For me personally higher regeneration is more forgiving, that's why I'm running high regeneration builds, but you can think about it :)
    If you got 62k DPS with a wood elf with THAT much recovery vs a redguard... Somethings off.

    It's not, this whole post (and the whole hypothesis 2) is about the fact that it doesn't matter.
    If your final point is that proc sets need to take away from your resource pool, I disagree, they don't crit

    This is a valid point. I didn't add the non-crit property into account for the claim that proc sets are over-performing. But the claim they don't fall in line with other damaging sources (including NB proc skills) still applies.
    If you check out all the timers for the dots, they don't properly line up. If you actually want 100 % uptime. You need to use a dynamic rotation which doesn't seem worth it for the stress. Rending slashes has a 9 sec timer. Endless hail lasts 10 seconds of dmg, but has about 1.5 sec timer before the DMG starts, reason you want 100 % uptime on endless hail instead of rending slashes is because the DMG increases the longer it's on the floor with a VMA bow, razor caltops is 12 sec. So things don't like up meaning you will almost never have 100 % uptime on dots meaning your equation is a bit off.

    100% uptime doesn't say anything about 100% possible DMG output from 100% uptime. It's practically impossible. But you're right that you don't actually want 100% uptime, you want 100% possible DMG output. And it can be achieved by less than 100% uptime. But my point was about increasing P_spam damage output, and it remains the same regardless the uptime.
    ToxicPAWS wrote: »
    To me it seems like a troll as you haven’t clearly given your parameters so that other can test your theory and thus it’s all utter garbage.

    You don't need any parameters, the hypothesis says the result is a constant. For me it's 62k, for someone else it's higher or lower. But it's a constant. This post isn't about concrete numbers.
    You don't have 2100 base regen on your wood elf. You have 2100 at the end of all your percentage amps. Probably before 20% from pots. And 10% from the minor buff. As other people have stated, evidence is needed. Parses. I follow the thesis, I think, but you lack evidence.

    You're right about the base regen. What I meant by base regen was my own regeneration, including class passives, CP distribution etc., basically what you see in the character window. I use this "base ragen" terminology in my whole post, so please ignore the terminology discrepancy :)
    Jaimeh wrote: »
    If I'm getting this right, NBs are more efficient because their drain<=regen, thus rendering hypothesis 1 invalid, and so by having better LA weaves, they can do more dps?

    This is exactly what I claim. But it's because of the proc skill without any cost benefiting from light attacks, not the LA weaving itself.
    Jaimeh wrote: »
    How do siphinoning attacks play into this, being presumably an internal DEF skill?

    The skill follows the same mechanics as other skills and thus are not exception to hypothesis 1. It gives you resources via light attacks, so it's basically a cost reduction skill. The cost reduction is just tied to your light attack weaving (aka player's skill), and not just passivelly as on other classes. This skill is OK.
    Jaimeh wrote: »
    Also, does this mean we will stop being the exception to hypothesis 1 in the next patch when the merciless proc will have a cost?

    That's a hard question I'm not able to fully answer. This is a grey area, because so far I've been recognizing only active skills, not the skills that rely on procs (note that sorcerers have also 1 such skill). Hovever, in my theory, the answer is yes.
    Sparr0w wrote: »
    Ps. :trollface: ?

    No. But I admit the name of this topic is a clickbait ;)


    While I don't want this topic be about my DPS and parses, here is my parse from my WoodElf.

    Please note:
    - The parse was done before a trial on Live server. Trial setup, no cheese (except ulitimate ability being ready for first rotation), no shenenigans.
    - It's a party parse, with all party buffs and all debuffs and everything that belongs to it. It's "check" before trials if everything is all right. Solo parses are pointless for this hypotheses, I won't post any solo parses here.
    - As you can see, I didn't even had gold armor, I had blue ring (if my trial party knew that... :D), not capped penetration ... all a lot of other minor details that could have been improved.
    xOZGPwr.png
    IsJl8RI.jpg





    Yes.
  • SickDuck
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    Interesting effort with so many theoretical mistakes on the “formulas”.

    And for the record nb bow proc is not necessary controbuting to dps because it’s free. It does because it replaces a spam with a higher damage potential hit. Nb sustain may or may not help to sustained dps but that needs to be compared to the so called average “drain” of typical rotations on other classes.

    This lengthy hipothesys is full of weird and incorrect assumptions that do not translate to practical usage.
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