I've Learned to Loathe BGs

ol_BANK_lo · September 2018

When BGs first came out, I really like the idea. My friends and I prefer small scale. It was a big part of why we like the sewers. But I can't just queue solo and get some good games in on the one toon I want to play on. At least one of the teams is guaranteed to be an organized premade with 3-4 stam all timing Dawnbreakers and spin-to-win. Literally every real group is the same thing. I usually prefer to solo queue in between doing other things, but even when I do team up with friends, steam-rolling through people gets old....but that doesn't seem to be the case for some groups that seem to endlessly want to steamroll people. It's those groups that have likely made less experienced people leave. I am not inexperienced, nor am I bad. But solo on a Mag DK is tough when the groups are heavily mismatched. It causes me not to want to play. I really am only playing at this point for a few achievements, but even then I am thinking it isn't worth the effort. Trying to find a fair game is tedious and miserable. Nighttime is the worst for premades, but even playing at 7:00 a.m., I am finding the same thing. These types of game modes in games that are more stock car-like (i.e. Call of Duty) make more sense. In there, I can hold my own in many cases. Everyone has the same weapons. Everyone dies the same way. ESO is really is best suited for premade or solo, but not both...as a general rule.

That's just my experience after spending a bit of time in there in the past year. It just isn't fun. It is literally Dawnbreakers and spin-to-win, a few sorcs who just spam execute or tanky people who just sit on flags and take 4 people to kill them. This type of game just doesn't lend itself well to Battlegrounds. Maybe other MMOs have faired better....not sure.

ralphylauren · September 2018

Yes I agree OP, everything everyone and their mother is spinning to win. BG matches look like ballerina pageants now 😐

lucky_dutch · September 2018

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

When BGs first came out, I really like the idea. My friends and I prefer small scale. It was a big part of why we like the sewers. But I can't just queue solo and get some good games in on the one toon I want to play on. At least one of the teams is guaranteed to be an organized premade with 3-4 stam all timing Dawnbreakers and spin-to-win. Literally every real group is the same thing. I usually prefer to solo queue in between doing other things, but even when I do team up with friends, steam-rolling through people gets old....but that doesn't seem to be the case for some groups that seem to endlessly want to steamroll people. It's those groups that have likely made less experienced people leave. I am not inexperienced, nor am I bad. But solo on a Mag DK is tough when the groups are heavily mismatched. It causes me not to want to play. I really am only playing at this point for a few achievements, but even then I am thinking it isn't worth the effort. Trying to find a fair game is tedious and miserable. Nighttime is the worst for premades, but even playing at 7:00 a.m., I am finding the same thing. These types of game modes in games that are more stock car-like (i.e. Call of Duty) make more sense. In there, I can hold my own in many cases. Everyone has the same weapons. Everyone dies the same way. ESO is really is best suited for premade or solo, but not both...as a general rule.

That's just my experience after spending a bit of time in there in the past year. It just isn't fun. It is literally Dawnbreakers and spin-to-win, a few sorcs who just spam execute or tanky people who just sit on flags and take 4 people to kill them. This type of game just doesn't lend itself well to Battlegrounds. Maybe other MMOs have faired better....not sure.

The issue is horrible, horrible no-CP balancing.

Pre-50 BGs is the best BG content in any MMO right now. Go make an alt, deck it out in a nice blue crafted set of your choice and enjoy. Don't bother with lvl 50 no-CP BGs, they're broken.

Doomblaze · September 2018

Maybe get a team to play with?

The soloQ issue is present in every single competitive game, MOBAs alone gather the most toxic communities. It's understandable there is MMR and ZOS aren't applying it properly on queues but even if it gets applied there are high MMR players who can sometimes still be as bad as low ones.

you can't control how players behave and blame it on the game, it just happens. Either get a decent team to play with or just try your luck in soloQ.

Dalsinthus · September 2018

I’ve noticed this recently as well. So many teams of all stam - most often sorcs and wardens - that are just bursting people down with dawn breakers, spin to win and either shalks or hurricane. It’s effective and I can’t really blame them but it is not the kind of thing I’m looking for. I am not really sure how things could be changed to avoid this.

Someone suggested using a similar build and making a team. Sure that works but it’s not really what I’m looking for. It’s honestly kind of boring to play that way. I usually play bg when I have an hour or so to play and just want some quick and fun pvp. When I run into teams like this for a match or two I usually just call it a day and do something else. If this is the trend going forward for bg i’ll probably stop playing them.

Sylosi · September 2018

Doomblaze wrote: »

The soloQ issue is present in every single competitive game

There is no comparison between competitive games that have millions of players to matchmake from and the car crash that are MMORPGs.

Doomblaze · September 2018

Sylosi wrote: »

Doomblaze wrote: »

The soloQ issue is present in every single competitive game

There is no comparison between competitive games that have millions of players to matchmake from and the car crash that are MMORPGs.

So are you implying that the people who play competitive pvp games are different from the ones who play competitive pvp in MMOs? Because I'm pretty sure if there are millions of them then there must be at least a large portion who play MMOs as well.

ol_BANK_lo · September 2018

Doomblaze wrote: »

Maybe get a team to play with?

The soloQ issue is present in every single competitive game, MOBAs alone gather the most toxic communities. It's understandable there is MMR and ZOS aren't applying it properly on queues but even if it gets applied there are high MMR players who can sometimes still be as bad as low ones.

you can't control how players behave and blame it on the game, it just happens. Either get a decent team to play with or just try your luck in soloQ.

I do sometimes, but it's something I like the idea of being able to jump solo. I don't always want to organize a group.

ol_BANK_lo · September 2018

Dalsinthus wrote: »

I’ve noticed this recently as well. So many teams of all stam - most often sorcs and wardens - that are just bursting people down with dawn breakers, spin to win and either shalks or hurricane. It’s effective and I can’t really blame them but it is not the kind of thing I’m looking for. I am not really sure how things could be changed to avoid this.

Someone suggested using a similar build and making a team. Sure that works but it’s not really what I’m looking for. It’s honestly kind of boring to play that way. I usually play bg when I have an hour or so to play and just want some quick and fun pvp. When I run into teams like this for a match or two I usually just call it a day and do something else. If this is the trend going forward for bg i’ll probably stop playing them.

Yep, shalks, 4 dawnbreakers and spin-to-win. I'm not even asking for a nerf or change, because I don't really have an answer. And I'm not a "nerf everything because it killed me" kind of person. Just throwing it out there in case someone has a thought.

brandonv516 · September 2018

I'm not going to sit here and tell you how to play because I know you are a capable pvper.

I will say for me I have found these things imperative against coordinated teams as a solo magicka player:

Swift jewelry
High sustain
Good self heals
Reliable way to remove snares
Healthy stamina pool
Attention to surroundings
Understanding of player traps

I play NB, Templar, DK, Warden magicka builds with everything above in mind before I commit to gear.

I do not want to be slowed down, locked down, or lured in. They will get their kill every time if this happens.

Sometimes I get teammates who are very capable and we give premades a run for their money.

Sometimes I play with friends and we might play another premade and butt heads the entire match. Or we might stomp randoms (which is boring for everyone).

Sometimes I get terrible teammates and I just try to get whatever points possible while learning from past mistakes.

I still play BGs for the moments when a comeback happens or a surprise ending takes place. They don't happen a lot but when they do, there's really nothing that I find sweeter.

Anethum · September 2018

solution is to separate premade bgs and random grouped bgs.
idk when they will do this, but hope in a nearest future
there are no competition, for both premades and randoms, mmr made this even more stupid, when 4 even more stronger randoms fight vs less experienced healing balls.
Current possible burst in 1 seconds from 4 people into u without healbot in your group is not viable.
If u live after - it means that group is really bad, it's very easy, too easy
Too big roof with increased light attacks and delayed breeakfree

ChunkyCat · September 2018

3x swift on gold jewels or gtfo.

Can’t use those extra resources if you’re dead.

Solariken · September 2018

Solo queue needs to be separated from premades, that's all there is to it. Make it so that you either queue solo or you fill a group with 4 and play premade vs premade. Groups of 2-3 shouldn't even be able to queue. We've been saying it forever, it's the only way.

Sylosi · September 2018

Doomblaze wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Doomblaze wrote: »

The soloQ issue is present in every single competitive game

There is no comparison between competitive games that have millions of players to matchmake from and the car crash that are MMORPGs.

So are you implying that the people who play competitive pvp games are different from the ones who play competitive pvp in MMOs? Because I'm pretty sure if there are millions of them then there must be at least a large portion who play MMOs as well.

I'm implying that the problem the OP mentions - a team of solo players being matched against a pre-made is not a common issue in most games that have tens of millions of players because they have the populations to provide much better matchmaking.

E.g - when I play Overwatch, if I queue as a duo and our team is made up of my duo + solo players, then the vast majority of time not only is that mirrored on the opposing team (1 duo + solos), but everyone is also within a reasonable MMR range of each other.

But then Overwatch has 30m+ players, all queuing for the various PvP modes, where as ESO has about 2.5m the majority of which don't even play BG, let alone queue at the same time, which makes matchmaking in a game like this a car crash.

ccmedaddy · September 2018

I feel you. I used to be super into BGs, regularly making top 10 on the leaderboards (which BTW is NOT an indication of a player's skill level--it's simply about how often they play), etc etc but at some point I got tired of getting into a match and knowing immediately how it will go down based on who are premades v. who are pugs before the match even began.

Nowadays I only play BGs when I have a group and even then it's not that fun to just roflstomp every match.

PickleRick · September 2018

These are the possible outcomes of a BG match.

Solo Queue
1. Get relatively evenly matched groups and have an awesome match
2. One or Two groups are noticeably better or worse than the other group(s) if two groups are good you will probably have fun as part of them, if only 1 group is good nobody has fun

Group Queue
1. Casual 4 man gets into a match with a min/max premade(or two). Can be fun, usually isn’t unless there’s enough skill disparity to mitigate the advantages of non/maxing a group
2. Min/Max 4 man gets into a match with 2 other Min/Max groups. This is the perfect scenario, everyone has all the needed tools to win and the match will be deciddd by who makes the right plays at the right time. Most fun available in BGs
3. Min/Max groups gets into match with 2 groups with bad group comp. Can sometimes be fun for the Min/Max group but usually isn’t for the other two, particularly if one or both of them are 3 man groups that pulled a 4th from group finder.

The issue is that the most fun scenarios are also the least common

jediodyn_ESO · September 2018

It makes no sense that solo que teams get put against group teams. With teams having only 4 players, even a good designed to work together duo wrecks any hope of balance.

Separate solo que please!!!

brandonv516 · September 2018

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

It makes no sense that solo que teams get put against group teams. With teams having only 4 players, even a good designed to work together duo wrecks any hope of balance.

Separate solo que please!!!

Sometimes you don't even get 4. Try facing a premade when you only have 2. Your lucky if the other 2 join the match before it's halfway over with.

ol_BANK_lo · September 2018

Besides splitting solo and teams, which we may not have the numbers to do that, here's another option.

One of my favorite 4v4 games was Call of Duty: Black Ops II (League Play). One of the things I really liked about it, and caused me to play more than the Public matches, is that the devs listened to the players about what they disliked most about PUB matches, and removed them when you entered League Play.

Perhaps that would help some of the cancer. For example, I am running against a team in Crazy King with Earthgore and Time Stop spamming. It's really annoying. The team just sits on flags and never dies, and spams Time Stop with a pocket healer.

I still believe something needs to be done about spamming skills in general like Steel Tornado and Cloak, etc. The 4 person meta often times involves one stam warden, at least 2 stam sorcs and either a healer or stamplar all timing shalks, dawnbreaker and steel tornado...over and over and over. But, that aside, not allowing certain sets/skills into BGs at all could help. Again, Earthgore, Time Stop, maybe Blazing Shield, etc. I know there are tons of sets and skills to consider in an MMO, but this could be one of the solutions to frustrating BGs.

Finviuswe · September 2018

If you're not doing that well, I mean, you can try and group up.

I'm not concerned with going against a premade of a bunch of lowbies

StamWhipCultist · September 2018

ralphylauren wrote: »

Yes I agree OP, everything everyone and their mother is spinning to win. BG matches look like ballerina pageants now 😐

deadly ballerina dance, in their blood soaked tutu, spinning like kids in 1st grade trying to become dizzy and vomit on their friends.

Finviuswe · September 2018

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

ralphylauren wrote: »

Yes I agree OP, everything everyone and their mother is spinning to win. BG matches look like ballerina pageants now 😐

deadly ballerina dance, in their blood soaked tutu, spinning like kids in 1st grade trying to become dizzy and vomit on their friends.

I mean it's called spin2win for a reason.

Plus, it's the meta. It's a very well performing skill

moosegod · September 2018

Everyone here complaining about high AoE damage from shalks, tornados, and dawnbreakers. If only zos would introduce some sort of mechanic to reduce AoE damage that could be accessible to almost everyone... Kinda like minor and major protection but specifically for AoE. Surely that would be a welcome change based on the complaints in this thread.

ol_BANK_lo · September 2018

ESO_GOD wrote: »

If you're not doing that well, I mean, you can try and group up.

I'm not concerned with going against a premade of a bunch of lowbies

You really haven't read my posts then.

Finviuswe · September 2018

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

ESO_GOD wrote: »

If you're not doing that well, I mean, you can try and group up.

I'm not concerned with going against a premade of a bunch of lowbies

You really haven't read my posts then.

I just went back and reread every post of yours in the thread.

Solo as a mag DK in BGs is rough. Very rough, because mobility is one of the strongest factors in BGs. BGs differs from Cyro in that mobility and burst are, by far the most important factors. You don't have to worry about sustain as much. You still need to be survivable, but you do not have to worry about survivability as much either (for the most part).

I'd argue that for Cyrodiil (especially CP) tankiness and survivability are the most important factors.

The fact is premades are mixed in with solo and duo queues, which due to the small population of BGs, is unlikely to change.

CatchMeTrolling · September 2018

I slowed down playing bgs because it’s stale. People either stack heals or go spin to win. Winning doesn’t even feel satisfying, throughout the match at least twice I’m like “this is why I barely play”

ol_BANK_lo · September 2018

ESO_GOD wrote: »

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

ESO_GOD wrote: »

If you're not doing that well, I mean, you can try and group up.

I'm not concerned with going against a premade of a bunch of lowbies

You really haven't read my posts then.

I just went back and reread every post of yours in the thread.

Solo as a mag DK in BGs is rough. Very rough, because mobility is one of the strongest factors in BGs. BGs differs from Cyro in that mobility and burst are, by far the most important factors. You don't have to worry about sustain as much. You still need to be survivable, but you do not have to worry about survivability as much either (for the most part).

I'd argue that for Cyrodiil (especially CP) tankiness and survivability are the most important factors.

The fact is premades are mixed in with solo and duo queues, which due to the small population of BGs, is unlikely to change.

Agreed

Hotdog_23 · September 2018

Solo on Magdk is painful in BG's. If I get at least one other decent player I can general do well and have fun. But I don't how many times I have had the 1st or 2nd damage out of the 12 players and still finish last in BG's.

DK's really need some sort of way to get speed outside of swift jewelry or chains.

awesomedave55 · September 2018

I agree with this 100%, my Gf and I play Bgs alot or used to, now its endless unbreakable CC and everyones running drain RSS poisons making impossible to do anything bewteen laying on the ground and trying to CC break with no stam or magicka left. Your alive for 5 seconds max an its disheartening. Sub CP Bgs are fun, you kill, you die its feels fair. But once you hit 50, the fun is gone and its RIP.

Anethum · September 2018

awesomedave55 wrote: »

running drain RSS poisons making impossible to do anything bewteen

cost poisons got nerfed to the ground in next patch - it wil be 10% instead ridiculous *** 30%.
it's very preasant thing i'm waiting for

Cage_Lizardman · September 2018

I've never liked them in the first place. I do them for the style pages and an achievement or two.

Even matches are very rare, it's usually one group, or even one player, completely stomping the other two groups. Either I end up in that group and kill the same three people five times each, or I end up getting killed five times in a row by the same guy (or more likely abandon group and go do something else).

I assume the matchmaking isn't actually designed to create competitive teams.