Should DPS be nerfed across the board in PVE?

ResTandRespeC · September 2018

No

Glurin wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

If top end dps is too high, the ceiling can be lowered without destroying players that are still progressing or more casual. Not everyone has 50k+ dummy parses. An across the board nerf would decimate those still struggling to hit 20k.

Specific targetted changes that chip away at the top end without impacting the lower end would be preferable, if nerfs are needed at all, which I don't agree with currently anyway.

I'm in agreement here. You have to be careful if you're trying to nerf top end DPS because that could easily negatively impact everyone who isn't trying to min/max and run DLC dungeons in less than a minute. The problem is that the gap between min/max and non-meta is, well, huge. You basically have next to no hope of doing vet DLC dungeons or trials if you don't min/max.

Personally, I think a major source of this problem is the fact that damage is so heavily dependent on how high your max magicka or stamina is. If we could separate damage from those stat pools, or at the very least mitigate it's impact, that would go a long way toward fixing the problem as well as open up a whole slew of possible builds.

There is plenty hope clearing them without min/maxing. With average gear and an average rotation you can reach 30k+ on most classes.

Mr_Walker · September 2018

coop500 wrote: »

Of course keep it as is in PVP, put it in battle spirit or something but in PVE, should all DPS be nerfed across the board so there's less 4 DPS dungeon runs?

Absolutely. I want every trash mob on trip across overland to feel like soloing a dolmen at a minimum!

FilteredRiddle · September 2018

No

It would be nice to see ZOS do something to decrease the DPS gap between lower range and higher range DPS, i.e. make changes which make it 'easier' for someone to achieve 20-25k DPS. This would allow a broader portion of the playerbase to complete a larger portion of content. However, someone hitting 40-60k DPS in a PVE scenario doesn't effect other players in any way, shape, or form. It merely allows those higher DPS players to enjoy and complete content within their own social group. Why should that be nerfed?

The Uninvited · September 2018

No

The problem is the powercreep of the CP system. If anything, the CP system should be toned down a bit INSTEAD of nerfing skills.

Glurin · September 2018

Other

ResTandRespeC wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

If top end dps is too high, the ceiling can be lowered without destroying players that are still progressing or more casual. Not everyone has 50k+ dummy parses. An across the board nerf would decimate those still struggling to hit 20k.

Specific targetted changes that chip away at the top end without impacting the lower end would be preferable, if nerfs are needed at all, which I don't agree with currently anyway.

I'm in agreement here. You have to be careful if you're trying to nerf top end DPS because that could easily negatively impact everyone who isn't trying to min/max and run DLC dungeons in less than a minute. The problem is that the gap between min/max and non-meta is, well, huge. You basically have next to no hope of doing vet DLC dungeons or trials if you don't min/max.

Personally, I think a major source of this problem is the fact that damage is so heavily dependent on how high your max magicka or stamina is. If we could separate damage from those stat pools, or at the very least mitigate it's impact, that would go a long way toward fixing the problem as well as open up a whole slew of possible builds.

There is plenty hope clearing them without min/maxing. With average gear and an average rotation you can reach 30k+ on most classes.

I certainly hope that by "average gear and an average rotation" you don't mean "meta build with some purple quality gear", because that doesn't cut it. Average, to me, would mean good but probably off meta sets and a rotation that would have some but not exactly optimal synergy between skills. No way you're getting 30k from that without help. (And frankly speaking, I'm pretty sure that most people who say they are doing 30k+ are lying about it in one form or another anyway.)

That's not to say I think someone with a random assortment of dropped gear and a smattering of whatever skills ended up on the bar as he put points in them should be able to clear vet DLC dungeons as well as the meta players. Far from it. It's just that the differences between "average" and "min/maxed" can be a little too staggering, if you catch my meaning.

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

It would be nice to see ZOS do something to decrease the DPS gap between lower range and higher range DPS, i.e. make changes which make it 'easier' for someone to achieve 20-25k DPS. This would allow a broader portion of the playerbase to complete a larger portion of content.

^This is coming from the same general idea that I'm getting at. The gap is just a little too wide and needs to be narrowed up one way or another. And not by doing something silly like introducing yet another set to be a kind of meta "in between" set. The problem is in the combat system itself. Not the available gear.

Guppet · September 2018

Maybe

It all depends on how they do it. I do think they need to make the game less dps centric.

The difference in dps from casual player to skilled player is far too large.

The reason for this is that there are too many layers of optimisation in this game.

I’m the game you can optimise-
Number of CP points
Distribution of CP points
Mundus stone
Food buff
Potion buff
Attributive distribution
Enchants
Armor weighting’s
Armor traits
Item quality
Set bonus 1
Set bonus 2
Monster set bonus
Class passives
Race passives
Armor passives
Weapon passives
Generic passives
Animation cancelling
Skills used
Rotation used
Tightness of rotation
Understanding of game mechanics

It’s a huge list, far too long.

It allows situations where someone that knows very little can put out 5k (heck that’s optimistic) while someone that’s really skilled can put out over 50k. That’s ten times.

Problem being some people like that level of complexity. They will defend it kicking and screaming. But this is the root of the games issues.

It is like anything else in life though, when you learn all this stuff, you don’t think about it anymore, you just do it.

Banana · September 2018

No

The good players will always find a way.

Glurin · September 2018

Other

Banana wrote: »

The good players will always find a way.

Well I don't think anyone is disputing that fact. People are just concerned about the level of difference between "good" and "casual".

Sergykid · September 2018

Maybe

they should make it easier to reach 30k, or close the gap between 20 to 40 k

malicia · September 2018

No

Why does it even matter than many groups do 4 DD dungeon runs, or 1 tank 3 DD runs?

In my casual guild (300+) players, we get to see a very broad spectrum of player skill and build quality. We have people hitting 50 self-buffed, we have people struggling to get 20k on magblades (CP 800+), and we have people who's idea of DPS is to bash something over the head until it dies. CMX, what's that?

Because it is possible to do 4 player dungeons in almost any configuration, we get so many cases where the LFG is: "LF2M, 1 DD, 1 heal, or 2 DD will also be fine". The players gets to play the dungeons without searching for a healer or a tank. Faster, simpler and thus a better user experience.

Trials, though, is a different matter. We often find ourselves lacking tanks or healers, to the extend where some of our best DDs log onto tanks or healers just to provide the roles to the group. They don't get to play what they prefer, but sacrifice some of their enjoyment for the group's sake.

ESO is currently providing the really casual gameplay of coming in any configuration, as you want in 4 player dungeons (though some of the DLC's will be interesting without a tank and healer), as well as the more structured group requirements that you see in trials. Healers and tanks are not redundant, and in our guild at least a good healer or good tank is highly valued.

Lazarus37 · September 2018

No

Other things, lag/load times, need fixing more than PVE DPS.

Jeremy · September 2018

coop500 wrote: »

Of course keep it as is in PVP, put it in battle spirit or something but in PVE, should all DPS be nerfed across the board so there's less 4 DPS dungeon runs?

The only reason it seems like damage needs a nerf in PvE is probably because you are referring to high level characters who out-level and out-gear the lower tier dungeons. In the newer veteran content damage isn't nearly so OP.

So if they were to nerf damage across the board it would make the new veteran DLC content way too difficult.

A better solution would be just to scale the lower tier vet dungeons up some that way you can't slice through them so easily.

eliisra · September 2018

No

How is nerfing damage suppose to prevent people from running without healer or tank(or both)?

Could have the oppose effect. Groups make even more dps oriented setups, to make up for lack of dmg and the run being slower.

Hard hitting bosses or mobs is why you need tank. Continuous moderate to high damage is why you need a healer.

Dungeons today are very mechanic oriented, that's why some of them works well with 3-4 dps. You either get oneshot or you barely take any dmg, enough for dps to out-heal it themselves.

Than ofc you have elite premade PvE groups that burn down any boss, before it even gets a chance to hurt anyone. But they're still a population minority. If you nerf overall dps because of the top 5%, you'll make content hell for everyone else.

BretonMage · September 2018

malicia wrote: »

Trials, though, is a different matter. We often find ourselves lacking tanks or healers, to the extend where some of our best DDs log onto tanks or healers just to provide the roles to the group. They don't get to play what they prefer, but sacrifice some of their enjoyment for the group's sake.

But isn't it a failing in a game if players have to sacrifice their enjoyment to play a rigidly dictated configuration? I don't see how this can be a positive thing.
(This is not a criticism of malicia's post, btw, which I recognise as generally supporting flexibility.)

Glurin · September 2018

Other

BretonMage wrote: »

malicia wrote: »

Trials, though, is a different matter. We often find ourselves lacking tanks or healers, to the extend where some of our best DDs log onto tanks or healers just to provide the roles to the group. They don't get to play what they prefer, but sacrifice some of their enjoyment for the group's sake.

But isn't it a failing in a game if players have to sacrifice their enjoyment to play a rigidly dictated configuration? I don't see how this can be a positive thing.
(This is not a criticism of malicia's post, btw, which I recognise as generally supporting flexibility.)

I would have to say yes, and that it goes beyond mere group composition. Think about how much flexibility you actually have in your builds. How many top DPS are using the same or very similar setups? How many frost staff tanks do you actually see, or tanks that use anything other than sword and board as their primary weapons? People are feeling pigeonholed into specific makeups and for good reason.

It's not necessarily straight up nerfs that are needed. Just a less, how should I put it.....exponential progression in how effective certain builds can be.

OrphanHelgen · September 2018

Other

It's a design fault that is gone out of control.
High dps and constant progress feeling isn't a problem, but they way it have been done so far, isn't good.
Nerfing something because lack of creativity, is a poor solution.

robpr · September 2018

Fix the weaving, so everybody is gonna be equal

FlyingSwan · September 2018

No

4 man content, including vet, is not meant to be challenging. People can clear it however they want, it's non-competitive and ought not to matter to anyone else how others clear 4 man stuff.

If it's desired to make 4 man content challenging then the mechanics need to be made more complex. It's not a DPS matter, it's a game design matter.

Yusuf · September 2018

No

Hell no.
Playerskill should be rewarded.
If a group is good enough to run a vet-dungeon with 4 DPS, no Tank, no Healer they friggin' earned it.

eso_nya · September 2018

I dont understand the question.

ppl run dungeons with 3 or 4 dds, because they otherwise fail the dps checks when bringing tank and healer.
hows is nerfing dps gonna help there?

sekou_trayvond · September 2018

Did I miss the collective dungeon bosses of ESO banding together into a union to voice their concerns over first, shield spamming and now TOO MUCH DEEPS!

I don't want to live in a Tamriel where Molag Kena, Gamyne Bandu, Nerieneth, Valkyn Skoria et al have a larger voice than I, the ordinary adventurer.

ezio45 · September 2018

Other

only if shields nerf doesnt get reversed, if shields are useless all the stam can burn with me

Juhasow · September 2018

Kadoin wrote: »

4 DPS will continue to happen as long as the game is a DPS race. They need more punishing mechanics for DPS, and in more places. Reflecting damage, eclipsing whoever does the most DPS, etc. Right now there simply isn't enough punishment for DPS. The guards in no-CP Cyrodil are more threatening than most of the PvE bosses.

Game is a DPS race because things like 4 DPS can happen. If 4 DDs at their full potential wouldnt be able to burst through mechanics they would have to change tactics. Current power of players even average ones is more then enough to burn through many mechanics. Many veteran dungeons and trials requires 3-4 times less DPS to complete it then numbers people are able to achieve. Mechanics punishing for too high DPS would just hurt those who are really good at it so what would that even solve ? You want to punish people because they got good at something ? Guards in Cyrodill are threatening because in Cyrodill Your numbers are actually cut in half.

In reality game needs either lowering everyones DPS or increasing health bars for many bosses in dungoens and trials with mechanics tweaks here and there.

BigBadVolk · September 2018

Other

or they could just simply increase the difficulty or raise the CP cap of Dungeons and Trials like SotH dungeons and vMol to 400 vHOf to 500 and so on with dungeons and trials so the newer ones wouldnt be completed on PTS first day by experienced players

Malthorne · September 2018

Other

Nerf everything

Kolache · September 2018

Maybe

This is a complicated question to me...

I know the game ceases to be entirely "play it your way" when you have to get serious about performing roles in vet DLC+ dungeons or somewhere around there, but I think it's currently too extreme in this department. Meaning I'm not sure how much class even matters if most of your DPS is just coming from barrage, relequen, caltrops, trap, crushing weapon, etc.

I guess I'd rather all class DPS abilities compete with the abilities mentioned above... but if you did that without nerfing something then it'd probably result in an overall DPS boost which I don't think we need.

I don't know what the solution is, I just don't think it's fun to be expected to use the same abilities/sets across all classes to pull your weight in harder content. If nerfing DPS in some way could fix that I'd probably vote for it.

SickDuck · September 2018

Maybe

There are some stupid aspects of the game that could be adjusted to decrease overall DPS. For example we are way beyond any reason to have a huge damage increase for legendary v16... i mean cp160 weapons.

ZOS should focus on adding more mechanics to boss fight, maybe for some of the old dungeons too. More importantly the current 2-way split of normal and veteran dungeons should be reviewed. We need to have more difficulty options and the dungeon standardised more for the same difficulty.

ESO is designed in a way that all DPS can do some (self)healing and withstand some damage. 4 DD runs are the result of this and the fact there are some easy dungeons. None of this should change. Easy dungeons are needed for newbies as a stepladder. ZOS should focus to create a consistent level of harder instances where you need diversity of roles - and not just for the new DLC ones.

RexyCat · September 2018

Phage wrote: »

No.

How about instead of blanket nerfing and ruining everyone's game, ZOS instead stops making DLC dungeons with oneshots on oneshots on oneshots? It's a crutch for not putting the effort into making more intricate damage mechanics.

More intricate damage mechanism would be very bad for game play when there is delay in visual information (lag) and how servers over time have become less responsive. NPC that can self heal, do ones shot (as long not everybody dies) create a en environment where a group is more likely to kill boss (or bosses) compared to a single player solo it. One reason is when solo player get killed they reset and as long as someone attacking boss is alive that boss or bosses will still have their health pool reduced.where

In my opinion the real problem is bosses you get stunned to death, your HP (or your main stat) are being drained (and you can't use break free yourself or interrupt). All this is to forece people into grouping up, but then damage become something else in a group.

Aisle9 · September 2018

Other

No, but I wouldn't mind if they didn't increase the CP cap every update...

We're getting close to a point where you don't even need to decide where to put points anymore, just put 56 everywhere...

Sparr0w · September 2018

No

Dont... they might add cast times to all skills...