The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Maintenance for the week of April 29:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 29

An Essay (Seriously, No Joke) on Possible Light/Medium/Heavy Balance to Desired Roles

Soundinfinite
Soundinfinite
✭✭✭
Hello there to all. I am writing this to try and give my 2 cents, if you will, on balancing Light/Heavy/Medium Armor. My hope is to perhaps create conversations and or ideas on how to move ESO into a direction that appeases both the developers and players of a more even playing experience and implement functional sustainable changes to the game. I am not trying to step on any toes or say this MUST be how it is done, and it is coming from my understanding of how the game is built to operate combined with the experience I have gained in playing over the past 2 years. (Yes, I have not been here since BETA). For background purposes, I have leveled multiple characters in all 3 roles (Tanking/DPS/Healing) as well created Magicka and Stamina focused toons, and lastly, I am pushing 1000 CP rank during the course of my time here in ESO. I am also both a PVE and PVP player spending nearly equal amounts of gameplay in both arenas. My hope is to not be taken so lightly as “nerf this/buff that”, or “I don’t like this” without an argument and reasoning behind why I think this or that should be done. As such, this will be a decently in-depth analysis with reasoning behind the changes I am suggesting. A class representative stated that there is a meeting in a few days, (Today is 9/18/18), so now is the time to get complaints, suggestions, or issues out on the table so they can be spoken about. This is my attempt to do just that.

So, if you are still with me through that introduction, lets get started, shall we?

Roles and Armor: Balancing Stamina, Magicka, and Health Focused Builds
To understand what roles exist and how the armor is designed for each weight and role I have constructed the following chart for an easy visual aid.
Table_1.png
Note: Proc Attribute/Buff also includes De-Buffs and is meant to cover all non-specific attributes such as when sets grant Buffs (Major Expedition, Minor Savagery, etc.), De-Buffs (Minor Maim, Major Defile, etc.) or Specific Stat and Damage Procs (1000 Magicka Regen for 20 sec, Call a comet that does X amount of damage to target, etc.).

Character BUILDS have 12 pieces at play through the combination of armor, jewelry, weaponry to create one’s stats. Sets of an Armor type run in 5-piece combinations meaning that a BUILD can utilize 2 complete 5-piece sets if they so choose. However, physical armor is only 7 pieces of that 12-piece build meaning only 1 armor weight (Light, Medium, or Heavy) can be main-ed by a character since the set will take 5-pieces to complete.

As one can easily see from the chart Heavy Armors Primary Attributes are intended as complete opposites to their Medium and Light counterparts. Even more, Heavy has the added mitigation and resistance built in to their base numbers through being metal in material.

So how do we fix this and make Light, Medium, desired in their intended roles of play?

Well it’s complicated but I’m going to propose 3 main ideas to try and bring the different armor lines into a stronger alignment with their roles.

Point # 1: Set Creation and Revisiting Sets in Game
When designing new 5-piece sets, and when reevaluating currently in-game 5-piece sets, a series of questions should be entertained on if it is viable for the purposes of game balance.

Does this set have at least ONE Primary Attribute of the set’s weights (Light, Medium, Heavy) as part of its first 3 set bonuses? As in, does this set lend itself to bolster how the armor is intended to be used? If not, what is the purpose of adding the set to the game and how will it affect the balance of sets to armor? If an exception is designed then one must also be designed of alternate armor types to ensure armor balancing.

Why, I feel these questions should be asked, and the rule of ONE PRIMARY ATTRIBUTE from the chart above per armor weight be used in the first 3 set bonuses of a 5 p-piece set, is because many Heavy Armor sets are not designed in this fashion, while most Light and Medium sets do already follow this rule. This causes many Heavy Armor sets that seem guised as Damage Dealing in heavy plating instead of actual stats that bolster survivability and tanking.
Table_2.png
All Weight sets as well as Craft-able sets do not need to follow the rules of Role and Armor type due to them being available in all.

Currently there are 3 Light Armor, 1 Medium Armor, and a whopping 10 Heavy Armor sets that do not meet this guideline.

For arguments sake lets take one of the new sets that will be added in Murkmire because it does NOT pass the series of questions I have proposed.
Table_3.png
How does this set effect armor balance? How does it promote wearing Medium armor OVER Heavy? How does it bolster the role of Tanking and Survivability as Heavy Armor is intended?

This isn’t to say that a tank should be flapping in the wind only able to take damage and never able to deal it. However, as previously stated a Heavy Armor build can run a 5-Piece Heavy Build and then run either light or medium armor on their un-main-ed 5-piece (jewelry/weapon) set giving them stats and damage. Thus, where is the need to have a DPS only 5-piece Heavy armor set?

Answer goes to the 5th trait attribute of building Ultimate which can be useful for a PVE Tank for Warhorn, or PVP for generating a Tanks main damage dealing skill, their Ultimate. Yet, Heavy Armor already has the Akiviri Dragonguard set which does bolster survivability in its first 3 traits and reduces Ultimate by 15%. There is also already Shalk’s Exoskeleton which also grants Minor Heroism of 1 Ultimate every 1.5 sec while meeting the guidelines of a Primary Attribute in its first 3 set attributes with a dose of Max Health.

Yes, there are those 2 sets already, (You Argue) but besides the Ultimate benefits, and having Health Survivability as their focus in attributes, the other attributes are Magicka focused and not Stamina focused, while Champion of the Hist is Stamina focused.

Yes, but it is TOTALLY Stamina focused with NO focus on the main purpose of Heavy Armor and thus not equal to its Magicka focused counterpart sets. Even more, Stamina has a set in Hide of the Werewolf which IS Stamina focused and generates 5 ultimate every 5 sec when being attacked (more than Minor Heroism) and ironically focuses on survivability with its first attribute being Max Health. As a Heavy Armor user, meaning the focus of damage and tanking, Hide of the Werewolf (Medium)functions much better as a Tanking Heavy armor set than Champion of the Hist (Heavy).

Moreover, lets look at building a Damage Dealing build over survivability, with this new set, while keeping the 5-piece Heavy Armor Benefits.

Champion of the Hist + Hide of Werewolf + Bloodspawn (Monster Set)

Now we have a build that has:
3,288 Max Stamina
129 Stamina Regen
258 Weapon Damage
1,206 Max Health

And 3 Ultimate Bonuses of Minor Heroism, 5 Ultimate while taking damage every five seconds, and 6% chance of 14 Ultimate every 6 seconds. Meaning that every 6 seconds you can, in theory, generate 23 Ultimate outside of your normal Ultimate gain.

Also, an additional 6% chance of 6450 spell and physical resistance for 6 seconds when damaged.

All while wearing 5-pieces of Heavy Armor and not yet touching on the Heavy Armor Skill line passives. This grants Tank-Like Resistances while creating a strong and deadly Stamina Focused Damage Dealing build. It is further exacerbated and made even deadlier if the player is a Werewolf or a Dragonknight.

So why even bother with wearing the 5-pieces of Medium in your build? The sets themselves make it not needed, and puts Heavy in a winning state over its Medium and Light counterparts.

Point #2: Armor skill lines inability to counter the attributes given through sets

Currently the Passive Skills of all Armor Lines are as follows (Murkmire Proposed)
Table_4.png
The proposed changes in Murkmire are HIGHLY WELCOMED to boost the effectiveness of Light and Medium Armor Passives. However, the new passives are not going to make the gap wide enough to get players to ditch their Heavy Armor Builds, and when compounded with additional proposed game changes (Evasion/Shields) it may push more players INTO Heavy Armor.

Might you ask why?

It falls again with the combination of 5-Piece sets mentioned in Point #1 combined with the passives available to Heavy Armor in its skill line.

Since so many Heavy Armor sets focus on Damage Dealing and Non-Health Survivable stats, you can build a strong Damage output build, as shown above, while taking the Heavy Armor Line Passives of Sustain and Health to bridge the gap of dropping your Medium and Light Armor passives. Lastly, Heavy Armor passives give builds exactly what Medium and Light Armors are starved for: defense mitigation, more health, max stat regeneration, and better self-healing.

This becomes of even more concern with the current proposed changes to Light Armor Shields and Medium Armor Evasion Mitigation. However, I will only bring this up for arguments sake, and have a separate post prepared for the Shield/Evasion concerns, as this is a product of trying to make Healers more important in PVE group content and not balancing Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor as noted by the Developers.

Let’s do a quick breakdown to see the why and how of what I am stating.

Light Armor:
If you place 1 sec cast time on Shields making them interruptible, bar freezing, and lag prone it will require Light Armor builds to more reliably rely on Armor Spell and Weapon Resistances as defense, and that is something Light Armor plainly doesn’t supply. As such, most people will now ACTIVELY be forced out of their Light Armor builds and into Heavy Armor ones.

To manage this, Craft-able sets like Seducers and Shacklebreaker will be used in Heavy weight and paired with non-5 -piece main-ed Litch, and the new Murkmire Magicka set Bright Throat’s Boast (again non-5-piece main-ed) and the like. Though none give strong damage stats, they all give sustain in large doses giving max stats and regeneration. This will overcome the lack of not having the 4% and 2% Light Armor passives of Magicka Regeneration and Reduction. They will then be able to take advantage of Heavy Armor’s Passives of regenerating 930 Magicka and Stamina every 8 seconds (an equivalent of 232 spell and stamina regeneration) as well as rotating in regular heavy attacks to take advantage of the 25% additional resource restore passive. By doing this, players will all but bridge the divide in sustain between Light and Heavy Armor while also getting an additional 10% of Max Health, 8% additional Healing Received, the mitigation of Heavy Armor with its bonus 1,810 spell and physical defense passive.

Though this will highly limit build variations, it will ensure, as a Magicka user, that you will have a chance at survival in various settings and especially PVP where Critical Strikes are not as useful due to Impenetrable Armor Trait and high Critical Resistance leaving the Spell Critical Light Armor Passive a moot point of contention.

Penetration is VERY useful in PVE where bosses are maxed at 18,200 resistance, but in PVP a Templar, Dragonknight, or Breton passively negates most of the added Penetration of the Light Armor Passive. A Breton Templar or Dragonknight Combo fully negates it and still has Spell Resistance to spare. Also, spell resistance is the easiest resistance in the game to build for, with many players reaching 50% mitigation without actually focusing for it making Penetration a stronger attribute in PVE than PVP. Though this Penetration is ALWAYS helpful, it does not make or break a set and can be overcome with Raw Power, Elemental Drain, The Lover Mundus Stone, and Sharpened Weapons, (Medium Armor Lives without out it just fine) thus negating the final Passive of Light Armor

Medium Armor:
I will not spend much time here as a 3% buff to Damage will not pull any Heavy Armor users back to Medium. The Sets available overcome the sustain gap with Heavy passives, Critical isn’t as important in Non-PVE settings, Sneak can be reduced with Legerdemain passive and eliminated with Vampire. Taking Evasion from medium will just further reinforce the defense of the Heavy Armor PVP Meta and the 3% is basically just a BUFF to PVE Stamina DPS which is already stronger than Magicka.

So then, what would lure players back to their rightful armor and out of Heavy. Well, if Point 1 is addressed, it’s a start. And now I propose this 2nd point.
Table_5.png
These recommendations are based on keeping current Murkmire proposed changes but adding:

Both Magicka and Stamina Sustain Changes:
This change is made to help guarantee that sustain will be maximized while wearing appropriate armor weight. In the past, the Champion Point System allowed you to take an additional 16% off cost reduction. Which meant between Medium and Light armor passives and the Champion System you could have a whopping 26% reduction of Spell or Stamina Cost. By increasing the values from 2% to 3% it would give back a portion (5%) of that 16% lost, but only if in Light or Medium Armor, and would make a gap (no-matter what sets used) that couldn’t be closed between main-ing a 5-Piece Heavy Armor build. This would also help game wide sustain issues which are a current focus of the development team.

Other Light Armor Passive Adjustments:
Magic Damage was added to the last passive trait of Light Armor to give an incentive for builds to stay away from Heavy. As Dark Elves and High Elves boost Elemental damage, I didn’t want to compound their already strong racial passives, and since only Warden’s can boost their Magic Damage (An underperforming class) leaving all other classes unable to boost this stat, it felt like a good place to use it. This also makes Light Armor give a stat that does not have a 1-1 mitigation. As Spell Penetration is directly mitigated by Spell Resistance. Magic Damage, like Medium’s 15% Weapon Damage Boost, is not directly mitigated but instead depends on the skills and build in use for effectiveness.

Note: Magicka Nightblades run off Magic Damage and are already BIS in the game for Magicka DPS and thus a 5% nerf to all Magic Damage done by the class is in order. This way Nightblades will remain just as powerful as NOW, but ONLY when wearing a 5-piece Light Armor build, while all other classes will become a bit stronger helping to close the DPS gap between them.

The addition of Physical Resistance to the 3rd passive of Light Armor is to give a resistant incentive to stay in the lowest valued armor. Even with this added, Light Armor doesn’t meet Medium or come close to Heavy Armor in build mitigation. Also, there is 1, yes ONLY 1 Light Armor 5-Piece Set out of 80 that gives Physical Resistance and this stat is key in a PVP environment where Stamina DPS is KING.

As for 204 Health when Hit every 8 seconds, this is based off of the 186 Magicka and Stamina Heavy armor gives but reversed and the 10% extra of all Health stats added to get the 204 number. While this, out of all the changes, is the one I’m most shaky about, and probably least likely to get implemented-if any of these ideas are, it is directly to, again, give hope-of-survivability to a paper armor class, especially if the 1 second cast time to shields makes it to LIVE. This gives a tiny bit of health when attacked, but every bit helps.

Other Medium Armor Passive Adjustments:
The 4% Reduction to Break Free becomes a KEY, if not THE KEY, in moving Heavy Armor users back to the Medium Armor fold. As the Reduction to sneak was a throw-away, managed by many other means in game from sets to other skill lines, ONLY medium armor will give you this unique and VERY IMPORTANT sustain improvement. It becomes even more important with the proposed change that is about to come in the final point of this write up. The 4% Roll dodge Reduction and 8% Break Free Reduction will be the passives that make players say “I’m staying Medium.”

Weapon Critical has been raised to meet its Magicka counterpart. Though a 7-piece build is nerfed, (Down from 2,296 Critical) a 5-piece build is buffed, (Up from 1,640 Critical) allowing Medium armor to take advantage of the intended 5-1-1 build ratio without a loss of Critical Power…yes, I see you Kahjits, and yes congratulations!

Finally, the rearrangement of how you earn medium armor passives is to move it in line with how you level all other Armor Passive skills. Just as Light and Heavy are designed, the first 3 passives are available for all to use with the last 2, and argumentatively strongest, passives reserved for the 5-piece requirement. Also, it better aligns cost reduction while leveling a character, as the first 3 traits improve sustainability while the last 2 improve power.

Point #3: Starving for Stamina, the ESO game punisher! (The Longest Shot of a Change)

Okay all, so it has taken a lot to get here, and hopefully some of you, fingers crossed at least 1 Class rep, has made it here with me. But we are finally at the end…and well, it’s a “BIGin” of a last point.

Stamina is the key in ESO. When I started, 2 years ago, Stamina builds already dominated PVP but Magicka dominated PVE. However, during my time, this has changed, as now Stamina rules the roost in BOTH PVE and PVP. Stamina DPS outperforms Magicka on all builds, and the only reason in PVE to carry Magicka DPS is because of the ranged requirement of certain boss’s mechanics. And even then, it is preferred to have 1 specific Magicka DPS class, the Nightblade due to it being able to come closest at replicated the DPS numbers of a Stamina player. I understand it took Stamina players a long road to get where they are today, and that in the beginning Magicka dominated everything. However, in a fantasy game, it does seem a bit disheartening that a player with a dagger can overcome those that wield the elements, (A sword wielding Sorcerer is stronger than a stave wielding Sorcerer, come on it’s a Sorc, the use of magic is literally in its definition see Oxford Dictionary), but it is how it is.

In PVE, this comes down to Class and Skill Balancing, and that is something I don’t want to get into here, as it layers on top of the foundations we are covering in balancing basic armor vs role performance.

But in PVP, there are distinct base game mechanics that limit the strength of Magicka characters, and that is what I want to address here as we come to the end of balancing Stamina, Magicka, and Health with their Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor counterparts.

ESO has a unique game mechanic in that Running costs resources. This affects all builds in their mobility. But even more so, Stamina is the resource behind interrupting, bashing, breaking-free, roll-dodging, and sneaking on-top of running. This means this resource is imperative to a build no matter if its Tanking, Damage Dealing, or Healing and thus all Armor Weight Builds are starved of this resource. This is one, if not THE reason stamina has become the dominant build in all gameplay, because it gives you the largest amount of the most useful resource and even more, becomes the ipso facto winning force in PVP.
Table_6.png
Cloaking is limited to a specific class leaving the above moves available for all to use.

6 of the 9 Defensive Moves of Light Armor Require Stamina
8-9 Defensive Moves of Medium Armor Require Stamina (9 if your Stun is Stamina Based)
7-9 Defensive Moves of Heavy Armor Require Stamina (8 if your Stun or Healing is Stamina based, 9 if both are Stamina Based)

With this Stamina focused design, and the need for all Armor Weights and Roles to use Stamina, Shouldn’t BASE GAME STAMINA MECHANICS work differently than Skill and Abilities. Roll-Dodging, Blocking, Running, etc are basic non-slot-able moves given to all characters regardless of level, main stat, or armor worn and thus should also affect each Build type Equally.

While Medium Armor should have the Advantage of more speed (the faster you run the shorter time you have to do it and thus the less Stamina is consumed), roll-dodging, breaking free etc as a benefit to its build by design. This Benefit should not come at the cost of PUNISHING Non-Stamina and Non-Medium Armor builds. This is what has happened in game play, with so much mitigation attached to role-dodging, PVE and PVP becoming snare/stun fests requiring the constant use of break-free, Battlegrounds requiring Bashing as a design to keep enemies from taking relics and chaos balls, interrupting attacks to mitigate damage, on and on it goes to the point that unless you are built with large pools of stamina you are quickly run-down, depleted, turned into a sitting duck, and killed.

For example, at current design and cost, Roll-Dodge has a base cost of 4040 Stamina per use.
Let’s Theorize how much different builds can use this ability in PVE and PVP based on this cost.
Table_8.png
This shows that Stamina can do 6x the amount compared to its Magicka Counterpart and gives this bonus no matter what armor you are wearing, as Heavy Armor with large Stamina pools loses little compared to a Medium Armor with large Stamina pools. One use of the skill will swallow nearly 40% of the Stamina pool on a Magicka Light Armor build when you still have other movements that need this same Stamina pool. As such, Stamina builds don’t just have an advantage, they play in a completely different league to their counterparts.

Due to this inherent imbalance to Base Game mechanics, I offer the following change: (DEEP BREATH, you can already hear the snickering.)

Stamina based game mechanic movements should become a REVISED Base + % of Stamina Pool cost equation instead of the set costs currently used. This will differentiate these mechanics from Stamina Class and Skill Line abilities and bring all Armor and Stat builds to a BALANCED gameplay footing.
Table_7.png
These values were based on a 40,000 Max Stamina build, and using the current base cost of mechanic movement. This was done to guarantee NO CHANGE in current PVE Stamina play to alleviate any PVE vs PVP balance complaints. That is, for example, the current 4040 Stamina cost is for all intended purposes equal to the equation 2020+(5.05%)40,000=4040 since current non-ability Stamina costs are currently balanced for Stamina builds already.

If this system was implemented, Stamina builds would, AGAIN, see NO CHANGE in their current roles performance in both PVE and PVP save for the addition of my proposed Break Free Cost reduction from Point #2 of this write up when they use the Medium Armor Skill Passives. All movements and skills will effectively function as they currently do. HOWEVER, Light and Heavy armor builds would get a significant boost to their base game play mechanics finding their lower Stamina pools lasting longer when performing basic moves and having longevity in fights.

This is where the Medium Armor skill line will truly shine versus its counterpart’s skill passives.
As the current cost model dictates, the more stamina you have the more of these moves you can perform, making Heavy Armor Builds with large Stamina pools viable for Stamina DPS game play. With this new model, the only way for your physicality to out-perform a Heavy or Light build is to have the medium armor skill line passives which effectively reduce Roll-Dodge and Interrupt/Break-free by 20%-30% depending on the number of pieces you equip, as well as adding 15% increase to speed while also boosting your regeneration, lowering cost consumption, and finally giving large boosts to raw power and critical strikes.
Table_9.png
As you can see the number of Roll-Dodges for Medium Stamina Armor did not change nor the % of the Cost to Stamina pool ratio of 8%. This, ONE MORE TIME, is to show that Current Stamina Characters will function as they always have.

HOWEVER, Light Armor Magicka users have now DOUBLED their number of Roll-Dodges and closed the gap between stamina to 3x more from 6x more. Also, the Large Stamina Pooled Heavy Armor has no to little change as well, but the Magicka Focused Heavy Armor also received a boost to their Stamina use like Light Armor Magicka, again closing the distance of Stamina focused builds comparatively to Magicka counterparts.

With this Design, it will keep Stamina users with the ADVANTAGE of their builds design, in speed, skills, and use of base mechanics, as well as keep them operating as normal. However, the PUNISHMENT for NOT being Stamina based has lessened considerably and allows for a more even playing field.

When you then throw on my Point #2 Proposals to the Medium Armor Line, further giving Stamina toons more reduction of base mechanics (Break-Free) while improving their skill reduction costs, and it makes the desire to be in Medium Armor much stronger over its Heavy Armor counterpart.

In closing, I know there was a lot here, and maybe you made it to the end just because you refused to give up once you got half-way through, and possibly you don’t agree with my 3 proposals, but as I said it’s my 2 cents on the subject, and these are changes I would like to see implemented and do feel it promotes a more balanced gameplay and strengthens the rewards of Role/Armor matching.
@Alcast
@Checkmath
@FeaR Turbo
@GandTheImpaler
@Hexys
@Joy_Division
@NightbladeMechanics
@Liofa
@Masel92
@Quantum_V
@stileanima
@Tasear
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    You put a lot of thought into this and it's clear you have a solid grasp of the mechanics.

    It sounds like to me you want roles/archetypes to wear their intended armor, but that isn't something ZOS wants to do, which is why a disproportionate amount of heavy armors violate your rule #1. That being said, if there is a serious heavy armor PVE DPS or Healer, I'd be surprised. While I'm sure people do it, it's not something that the mechanics encourage at all. So heavy armor is for two purposes: PvE tanking and PvP creativity. Because of the latter, certain heavy armor will and should buck the norms and not follow perceived intents.

    I do agree with you that heavy armor is too attractive for PvP stamina builds. I think this is more to do with certain sets like Fury and 7th Legion having stronger damage 5th bonus than pretty much anything that can be found in the game. The extra healing, sustain, and resistance are all gravy, and with the option to get Evasion onto heavy with duel wield, there isn't any drawback. Though as I said this might be mostly because of those powerful sets; I am not so sure so many people would go for heavy without them.

    You're probably going to get people who disagree with you about stamina being dominant and you will definitely get people insisting that having to draw from their damage pool to break free, dodge, block, etc. is a disadvantage. I do think there is a reason why all the top PvE guilds want as many stam (NBs) DPS they can get and why most of the experienced open world, small scale players opt for stamina.

    As for encouraging more stamina to wear medium, I think it's main issue is suriviabilty. I do think 25% AoE reduction in a vacuum would be enough to at least test. But as long as Forward Momentum, Swift, Jewelry Crafting , Blade Cloak, and those powerful damage oriented heavy sets exist, stamina players will still go there even with the resource benefits you are proposing.

    Regarding Light Armor, with cast-time shields it's pretty much RIP, although DKs and Templars can do without them since their class gives them survival options. Because light armor must invest in stamina management or they are RIP, the cost reduction to spells you suggest would help. But the big issue with light armor is that it gets rekt by high weapon damage burst builds, and that's something that the small physical resist and health return on hit won't help much. I'd rather have a healing bonus. I think the original designers intended magicka players to use their skills to help them survive (for example Blinding Flashes), but these have been over-nerfed or outright remove, that is what has put light armor in a bad spot. I don't think Light armor should be tanky at all; instead it ought to enable characters to use their spells to help them survive.

    As for your last point about dodge rolling, I see what you are trying to do, but I'm not sure I'd go for it. First of all, ESO has this unsustainable two different game modes with no CP and CP, which means your formulas and thinking isn;t going to be consistent. In no CP, I'd be all for the stamina reductions because using stamina to do anything in no CP is *far* too cost prohibitive. But in CP play, your formulas would allow a magicka player to get away with disregarding their stamina pool, and I think that encourages bad game-play. The issue here is not so much magicka doesn;t have enough stamina to block and doge roll, rather magicka players no longer have very many legit unnerfed spells to enable them to defend themselves so they don't have to block and dodge-roll.

    In short,
    • The issue with heavy is I think mostly do to some specific sets having very strong damage bonuses. That they can easily get what is supposed to be medium's thing with snare removal (forward momentum) and evasion cinch the deal.
    • Medium needed survival and they're getting that this patch
    • Light is RIP without shields and needs spells to properly defend itself
  • olsborg
    olsborg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Its the heavy armor sets that are very overtuned imo. Seventh legion, fury etc are 2 examples.

    Medium armor needs better snare and root resistance. Shuffle provides too short duration per cast at ~4k stam per cast

    PC EU
    PvP only
  • Soundinfinite
    Soundinfinite
    ✭✭✭
    @Joy_Division

    Thank you kindly for you feedback, and you have most definitely given me some thoughts to chew on. ( I was worried the write up wouldn't be given the time of day.) Your points of contention with many topics have warrant, and I wanted to give a little feedback to why I went the route I did on some choices.

    Light and Medium Armor do not compare favorably to Heavy Armor (mostly in PvP: it’s easier to get good damage, sustain, and mitigation from heavy) -Class Rep Notes

    This line is what finally gave me the push to write up things that had been rummaging around in my head as I played ESO. You responded that many of the issues with Heavy are simply the over-tuned sets that you can wear, but that Heavy has 2 roles, PVE TANKING, and PVP Survive-ability. But the notes seemed to suggest, that ESO doesn't want it that way. Or, that they at least want Light, and Medium to have a chance against the Heavy counterpart. It is also why they re-visited Light and Medium skill line passives to try and make more of a "LOSS" from dropping your intended armor line in order to run Heavy.

    This was my goal in this write-up; to set Light and Medium Armor, at least, on a path towards reaching this equilibrium.

    I do agree many Heavy Armor sets are flat out too powerful (7th Legion the easy off-the-top go to), and oddly ALL of them are given to Stamina builds. Magicka builds cannot reach the same degree of effectiveness as Stamina builds when using Heavy Armor. I brought up the New Heavy Murkmire set as an example as to why, because it hasn't come into play and become a part of any players build make-up. This seems to be geared directly towards Werewolf and Stamina Dragonknight DPS players, but then the Developers say that UPDATE 20 has a goal of making Light and Medium more favorable against Heavy Armor in a PVP setting. The set contradicts this ideal in all forms. I tried a subtle approach of making a simple rule and asking a small set of questions before releasing a set, and maybe going back to older sets and seeing also where they fall in an attempt to highlight this.

    With the mix and matching now available in all builds having 12-slots, I still contend there really isn't a reason for Heavy Armor to have any sets that strictly promote damage dealing, no-matter if being used for Non-Tanking purposes. A player, can choose to mix a damage set form Light or Medium with a defensive or Tanking set from Heavy if they want the added Mitigation and Health Heavy offers to their build. But it comes at a loss of sustain. Which is a trade-off. The problem is that Heavy does offer Damage focused and sustainability sets without the need to even look at other weights- For Medium at least that is...Magicka is a little different.

    Your other points on Heavy Armor are spot-on and I haven't an answer on how to deal with skills available to players while still wearing Heavy armor. But that is again a Class and Non-Armor Skill line balancing issue, which I was trying to stay away from and instead focus solely on what can be done with the Armor and Armor lines themselves.

    The Armor Passive lines are a way to draw players back to the other Armor types, and they made some changes to try and do so, but they aren't enough. They don't make moving to an all Heavy build punishing enough, and they don't reach the goal that the Developers published they were trying to do. This is why I tried beefing up the skill lines, adding mitigation to Light ( I still contend its outrageous that the weakest armor has ONLY 1 set out of 80 that gives them Physical Resistance), as well as giving more damage to both, stronger sustain to both, and, in-the-case of Medium, giving a reduction that can greatly enhance a medium builds PVP experience with the reduction of Break-Free since more Medium players than Light opt for Heavy armor in PVP.

    This is, yes, probably still not enough but its at least a stronger step in the direction of pulling Light and Medium into a stronger position against their Heavy counterpart.

    My last point I knew would be a hard sell, and it took me the longest to write because I wanted to put in so many comparisons, and where I was getting my numbers, and deeper explanations, but everything was already far to long to begin with and so I kept whittling it down.

    As to your main point of CP vs Non-CP making the change a poor idea as Magicka could, get away with murder, in a CP reduced environment, ignoring Stamina in their builds and being fine...it was one of the parts I cut, because CP is available to ALL Armor weights and Stamina/Magicka/Health focused builds allowing them to reduce or buff what they need most. Non-CP values seemed to matter more because one can't control where and how much a person chooses to place their CP Points.

    But to show its effectiveness I will include one of my comparables.

    The Magicka Build has nothing at all invested into Stamina save for the 6% boost from the Undaunted Skill Line while wearing a 5-1-1 Build.

    The Stamina Build is a Medium Armor 5-1-1 build. (Stamina builds outside of Medium Armor would have lower reduction figures)

    For the example BOTH the Magicka and Stamina builds have invested 56 CP points into Tumbling to receive a 20% reduction.

    CP_Table_1.png

    As you can see the new method holds up as it still rewards HIGHER stamina pools. It maintains Medium Armor Stamina Builds as the King of physical movement and changes nothing about their status-quo. And it still punishes builds that choose not to invest in the Stamina resource. It just lessons the severity of the GAP between large stamina pools and small stamina pools.

    My average Magicka toon carries around 16k stamina in their build for PVP, some have a little more, some have a little less. With the current system in a CP Environment and a 5-1-1 build, the cost of Roll-Dodge is the 3070 figure. That means at best I can get out 5 roll-dodges. With the new system 16k of stamina in a CP Environment 5-1-1 costs (2020+(.0505)16,000).76 = 2,149 stamina. Which means I improve to 7 Roll-Dodges from 5. Because there is a flat value mixed to a % value that GROWS comparable to your Stamina Pool, it keeps the equation in check and doesn't allow builds to abuse it.

    Again, I want to thank you for your response, and taking the time to read my write-up and provide me with feedback. It helps me digest what I'm not seeing in my designs, and allows me to think of other perspectives. I am truly grateful.
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don’t like such strict approach, game builds are already similar and have a half of skills as a must. Any armor should have ability to perform any role, i.e. medium for stamtank, heal, dps, light for magicka tank, heal, dps, heavy for health tank/heal/dps, then there will be variety.
  • Elsterchen
    Elsterchen
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Soundinfinite I really think your approach is interesting, i need to chew through it at least once more to say more about the changes, but there is nothing I would disregard on first sight. Ty for writing this up and putting it on the table for discussion!

    One thing bothers me, tho. I play a redguard, I play medium armor, I do have my attribute points spend in stamina (expt for 6 that go to health), I use the 5-1-1 undaunted bonus and sets that promote max stamina (evenso not primarily I admit), I use max-stamina glyphs and food that's buffing stamina ... all in all i would consider my char to be a quite "normal" stam DD build in medium armor: and I really wish I had a stam-pool of 40k ! Even with hulking and bone pirate I am stuck at below 40k max stam... (adding to it DPS isn't really good when pairing these 2 sets).
    I believe assuming a max of 35 k stam is reflecting the max ressource pool of stamina users more adequate, and yes, I suppose there are builds that get more (however always at a loss of weapon damage (which is supposed to be the main reason to go medium armor in the first place).

    Not sure if changing numbers will change much in your argument, I even doubt it. I just find it a little disturbing.
  • VeiledCriticism
    VeiledCriticism
    ✭✭✭
    @Soundinfinite , it's a very well thought write up and you really pinpoint some of the major issues with role/armor currently present in game.

    I don’t like such strict approach, game builds are already similar and have a half of skills as a must. Any armor should have ability to perform any role, i.e. medium for stamtank, heal, dps, light for magicka tank, heal, dps, heavy for health tank/heal/dps, then there will be variety.

    I disagree, your role should be a major factor when choosing to use an armor type over the other. But yes, every class should be able to perform any role at some extent.
  • Bakkagami
    Bakkagami
    ✭✭✭
    Definitely agree with OP here. The problem with heavy, like @Joy_Division pointed out, is that it is in part designed to be useful for "hybrid" setups leading it to have more flexibility with those rules than the other two types. I don't think that's a bad thing in and of itself but the issue is, in a number of cases, those "flexible" sets are vastly overtuned for damage. Even in PvE situations, the reason these overtuned heavy sets aren't used for dd only due to the medium passives being scaled really well for dd over heavy. Proof of this is the recent interest in ravagers for pve dd since jewelry crafting became available. They get the overturned DD boost from ravager while keeping medium passives.

    Been mentioning this for a while but passives are pretty good and balanced imo. It's the sets that need a serious looking at for light/medium/heavy balance to really happen. I'm not sure a huge overhaul is necessary but toning down heavy damage sets so that medium and light sets clearly outperform heavy for raw damage dealing is definitely necessary. There should never be a situation where a heavy set gives better damage boosts than dd oriented medium or light sets.
  • Bakkagami
    Bakkagami
    ✭✭✭
    That being said, i have to defend fury a bit. of the sets that are arguably overtuned, its the one that i have the least problems with because the set requires a tank/berserker like playstyle to use. Removing the max stam and weapon damage for phys/spell resist or just toning down the procs to 20 (loses 150 wp potential) would be the most i'd do for it.
  • Soundinfinite
    Soundinfinite
    ✭✭✭
    @Elsterchen

    Thank you for your response and taking the time to read my post! Your feedback is greatly appreciated!

    As to why I chose the 40,000 Max Stamina as the base of my figures:

    40,000 "feels" like the goal number of any build regardless of Armor weight or main stat. A Tank 40k Max Health, a Magicka Damage/Healer 40k Max Magicka, Stamina Damage/Healer 40k Max Stamina. It also seems to be the point where tooltip damage reaches its maximized point. Though it will continue to grow when you go above this, the improvements "seem" smaller compared to below this number. While all roles can MOST DEFINITELY be done with lower values and yes, many builds also employ even higher vales especially in Magicka builds, 40k is a reachable level no matter what stat you are using. There is a "false" belief that Stamina can't be built like Magicka, and though this "Technically" is true, in reality it is not.

    For Example:

    Using the Sorcerer as the model since it is the class that can most Maximize main stats in BOTH Magicka and Stamina.

    Stamina Build: Magicka Build:
    Race - Redguard Race - High Elf (Altmer)
    Mundus - The Tower (Max Stamina) Mundus - The Mage (Max Magicka)
    Attribute Points - 64 in Stamina Attribute Points - 64 in Magicka
    Sets - 1- Piece Spawn of Mephala (Heavy) Sets - 1 - Piece Ilambris (Heavy)
    1- Piece Domihaus (Light) 1 - Piece Domihaus (Medium)
    5- Piece Bone Pirate's Tatters (Medium) 5 - Piece Necropotence (Light)
    5- Piece Hulking Draugr (Jewerly/Weapon) 5 - Piece Destruction Mastery (Jewelry/Weapons)
    Traits - All Infused on Armor Traits - All Infused on Armor
    All Robust on Jewelry All Arcane on Jewelry
    Front Bar Nirnhoned/Back Bar Infused on Weapons Front Bar Nirnhoned/Back Bar Infused on Weapons
    Glyph - All Stamina on Armor Glyph - All Magicka on Armor
    All Increase Physical Harm on Jewelry All Increase Spell Harm
    Weapon Damage Front Bar/ Poison Back Bar Weapon Damage Front Bar/Shock Back Bar
    Food - Spring-Loaded Infusion (A Tri-Stat Drink) Food- Tomato Garlic Chutney (35 Min Magicka Only Food)
    Required Passives - Undaunted Mettle (Undaunted) Required Passives - Undaunted Mettle (Undaunted)
    Conditioning (Racial) Gift of Magnus (Racial)
    Required Skills - Bound Armaments (Daedric Summoning) Magicka Controller (Mage's Guild)
    CP Allotment - Doesn't Matter as long as you just slot the Required Skills - Bound Aegis (Daedric Summoning)
    minimum boost stat requirement in any of the Green Tree. 1 - Pet of your choice from Daedric Line
    Inner Light (Mage's Guild)
    Any other 2 skills from Mages Guild
    Ultimate - Comet (Mage's Guild)
    CP Allotment - Doesn't Matter as long as you just slot the
    minimum boost stat requirement in any of the Blue Tree

    Total Max Stamina = 58,422 Total Max Magicka = 67,091

    So yes, you can get MORE Max Magicka but it requires you to basically have your entire Active Bar Mandated and use as much of a Particular skill line (Mage's Guild) as possible to accomplish it. Also you use a food that is entirely impracticable on all counts. The Max Stamina character, however, is able to still completely choose their skills and also uses a food with more function, so it is a trade off. Also the Stamina build can be used on ALL CLASSES as there are NO Restrictions on the sets in use, only loss of the 8% boost from the Sorcerer Bound Armaments. This is not the case with the Magicka Build which can only be done on Sorcerers and Wardens because of Necropotence. Also Magicka Healers can not use Destruction Mastery in a practical way. While neither of these builds are truly feasible for use in live gameplay and are just to show what figures you can reach if you truly are JUST stacking max stats. ( I believe there is no possible way to currently have more of either stat in a build). These builds can, however, be easily manipulated to become useful and reach strong enough DPS numbers to run Vet content, though not BIS by any means and easily out DPSed by true BIS builds.

    On Both Change the Mundus to their damage counterpart (Warrior and Apprentice). Make small-slot armor Divines. Change both foods: Stamina to Dubious Cameron Throne, Magicka to Clockwork Citrus Filet. Change the 2 rings to Infused and the necklace to Bloodthirsty on both builds. Make a complete Monster-Set. Use Stormfist for the Stamina build and Ilambris for the magicka build. The magicka build has to also drop skills of the Mages line in favor of their own skills.

    You now have builds that have high weapon/spell damage, strong regeneration, reasonable Critical strike 40% Stam (could use work), 50% Sorc, and stonger health pools while giving both an additional PROC DAMAGE through monster helms, and still your max stats are:

    Stamina = 47,077 Magicka = 51,622

    As you can see the Magicka build was hit much harder with the changes than the stamina and the gap between them has become quite small.

    You still have a 7k buff before you drop below 40k of Max stamina to work with. That means you could drop Bone Pirate's entirely and replace it with a damage set such as Arms of Relequen's (Perfected) and now you are dealing with BIS set-ups.

    With this, you still have 43,512 Max Stamina, 2058 Stamina Recovery, and are up to almost 50% Weapon Critical with 4,572 Weapon Damage, and now have 2 Proc damage sets, one stack-able.

    So, reaching 40k Stamina is entirely feasible and a decent point of balance.

    See how long this post would have kept becoming if I didn't CUT all this explanation out. It was ALL ORIGINALLY in there...ahahhaha....it just keeps going and going and going.

    But this very much an issue I was worried someone would bring up or have issues with, and thank you for thinking about it and forcing me to further justify my ideas. The more I think about them, the better they have the chance of becoming!
  • Soundinfinite
    Soundinfinite
    ✭✭✭
    Sorry, the above post was formatted differently but when it went live it SMASHED the Magicka and Stamina builds together, sorry, makes it kinda hard to read at that point.
  • evoniee
    evoniee
    ✭✭✭✭
    what make heavy more desirable in pvp is mostly the 5th piece bonus is unique
  • mojomood
    mojomood
    ✭✭✭
    @Soundinfinite, Thank you for your time and effort in this. I definitely agree that more sets won't fix a mechanics issue. To ZOS's credit, they have tried to change the game enough to keep it interesting. Often, that comes at the expense of a class or archetype. I like the reduced movement mechanics cost. My first thought on every magic opponent in No CP is to pressure there stam pool.

    @Joy_Division also made some great points.


    1. CP vs No CP. I mainly play No CP and love it. I enjoy playing both magicka and stam characters, but I have no magicka characters that have less that 12k stam in no CP. Either tri-food or Shackle is a requirement to me. That is boring.

    But CP defensive scaling is far stronger than offensive scaling because of the increased effective returns with every percent mitigated. My request is to move the entire crit damage passives from CP to Light and Medium armor, 4% per piece. Crit damage is burst damage. Medium and Light should have drastically better burst damage and heals than heavy in PvP. Heavy in PvP should able to wear someone down, but not have the beat burst. Replace those trees with a single target skill effectiveness and an AoE skill effectiveness (an anti-evasion)

    2. Mobility is the best mitigation. You'll never see it on a stat, but mobility is the best mitigation. It takes skill to use but whether its LoS or positioning out of the opponents attack come, mobility is king. That is why 1vXers survive. The moment they are locked down, they're dead. Stamina users have the only access to snare immunity. Whether through medium armor or Forward Momentum,they can completely ignore that mechanic. They also have access to speed/primary resource potions. So 100% uptime on speed and completely ignoring immobilizations/snares means they can constantly position themselves outside a magic users targeting.

    Unless ZOS is willing to rebuild protection through spells like Joy mentioned, magic users need the same access to mobility. Speed/magic/spell power potions should exist. Rework a mages guild skill to provide snare immunity for 8 seconds like Forward Momentum.
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Elsterchen

    Thank you for your response and taking the time to read my post! Your feedback is greatly appreciated!

    As to why I chose the 40,000 Max Stamina as the base of my figures:

    40,000 "feels" like the goal number of any build regardless of Armor weight or main stat. A Tank 40k Max Health, a Magicka Damage/Healer 40k Max Magicka, Stamina Damage/Healer 40k Max Stamina. It also seems to be the point where tooltip damage reaches its maximized point. Though it will continue to grow when you go above this, the improvements "seem" smaller compared to below this number. While all roles can MOST DEFINITELY be done with lower values and yes, many builds also employ even higher vales especially in Magicka builds, 40k is a reachable level no matter what stat you are using. There is a "false" belief that Stamina can't be built like Magicka, and though this "Technically" is true, in reality it is not.

    For Example:

    Using the Sorcerer as the model since it is the class that can most Maximize main stats in BOTH Magicka and Stamina.

    Stamina Build: Magicka Build:
    Race - Redguard Race - High Elf (Altmer)
    Mundus - The Tower (Max Stamina) Mundus - The Mage (Max Magicka)
    Attribute Points - 64 in Stamina Attribute Points - 64 in Magicka
    Sets - 1- Piece Spawn of Mephala (Heavy) Sets - 1 - Piece Ilambris (Heavy)
    1- Piece Domihaus (Light) 1 - Piece Domihaus (Medium)
    5- Piece Bone Pirate's Tatters (Medium) 5 - Piece Necropotence (Light)
    5- Piece Hulking Draugr (Jewerly/Weapon) 5 - Piece Destruction Mastery (Jewelry/Weapons)
    Traits - All Infused on Armor Traits - All Infused on Armor
    All Robust on Jewelry All Arcane on Jewelry
    Front Bar Nirnhoned/Back Bar Infused on Weapons Front Bar Nirnhoned/Back Bar Infused on Weapons
    Glyph - All Stamina on Armor Glyph - All Magicka on Armor
    All Increase Physical Harm on Jewelry All Increase Spell Harm
    Weapon Damage Front Bar/ Poison Back Bar Weapon Damage Front Bar/Shock Back Bar
    Food - Spring-Loaded Infusion (A Tri-Stat Drink) Food- Tomato Garlic Chutney (35 Min Magicka Only Food)
    Required Passives - Undaunted Mettle (Undaunted) Required Passives - Undaunted Mettle (Undaunted)
    Conditioning (Racial) Gift of Magnus (Racial)
    Required Skills - Bound Armaments (Daedric Summoning) Magicka Controller (Mage's Guild)
    CP Allotment - Doesn't Matter as long as you just slot the Required Skills - Bound Aegis (Daedric Summoning)
    minimum boost stat requirement in any of the Green Tree. 1 - Pet of your choice from Daedric Line
    Inner Light (Mage's Guild)
    Any other 2 skills from Mages Guild
    Ultimate - Comet (Mage's Guild)
    CP Allotment - Doesn't Matter as long as you just slot the
    minimum boost stat requirement in any of the Blue Tree

    Total Max Stamina = 58,422 Total Max Magicka = 67,091

    So yes, you can get MORE Max Magicka but it requires you to basically have your entire Active Bar Mandated and use as much of a Particular skill line (Mage's Guild) as possible to accomplish it. Also you use a food that is entirely impracticable on all counts. The Max Stamina character, however, is able to still completely choose their skills and also uses a food with more function, so it is a trade off. Also the Stamina build can be used on ALL CLASSES as there are NO Restrictions on the sets in use, only loss of the 8% boost from the Sorcerer Bound Armaments. This is not the case with the Magicka Build which can only be done on Sorcerers and Wardens because of Necropotence. Also Magicka Healers can not use Destruction Mastery in a practical way. While neither of these builds are truly feasible for use in live gameplay and are just to show what figures you can reach if you truly are JUST stacking max stats. ( I believe there is no possible way to currently have more of either stat in a build). These builds can, however, be easily manipulated to become useful and reach strong enough DPS numbers to run Vet content, though not BIS by any means and easily out DPSed by true BIS builds.

    On Both Change the Mundus to their damage counterpart (Warrior and Apprentice). Make small-slot armor Divines. Change both foods: Stamina to Dubious Cameron Throne, Magicka to Clockwork Citrus Filet. Change the 2 rings to Infused and the necklace to Bloodthirsty on both builds. Make a complete Monster-Set. Use Stormfist for the Stamina build and Ilambris for the magicka build. The magicka build has to also drop skills of the Mages line in favor of their own skills.

    You now have builds that have high weapon/spell damage, strong regeneration, reasonable Critical strike 40% Stam (could use work), 50% Sorc, and stonger health pools while giving both an additional PROC DAMAGE through monster helms, and still your max stats are:

    Stamina = 47,077 Magicka = 51,622

    As you can see the Magicka build was hit much harder with the changes than the stamina and the gap between them has become quite small.

    You still have a 7k buff before you drop below 40k of Max stamina to work with. That means you could drop Bone Pirate's entirely and replace it with a damage set such as Arms of Relequen's (Perfected) and now you are dealing with BIS set-ups.

    With this, you still have 43,512 Max Stamina, 2058 Stamina Recovery, and are up to almost 50% Weapon Critical with 4,572 Weapon Damage, and now have 2 Proc damage sets, one stack-able.

    So, reaching 40k Stamina is entirely feasible and a decent point of balance.

    See how long this post would have kept becoming if I didn't CUT all this explanation out. It was ALL ORIGINALLY in there...ahahhaha....it just keeps going and going and going.

    But this very much an issue I was worried someone would bring up or have issues with, and thank you for thinking about it and forcing me to further justify my ideas. The more I think about them, the better they have the chance of becoming!

    I am at 41.3k Stamina with the build you state, where you state it should be 43.5k. This is with Bound Armaments, 5-1-1 with Undaunted Passives, and redguard passives, 900+ CP, and Infused on big pieces.

    Recovery is at 1491 without Red Guard passive, with it it will approach 1950 ish with it accounted for. With this setup Hulk or Relequin has to be single barred, Relequin is useless single bar so I drop to 35.9k on back bar.

    Without Bound Armaments which is 4 out of 5 classes I'm at 38.6k on main bar, 33k on back bar. 40k doesn't seem reasonable for anyone other than Stam Sorc with Bound Armaments. Beyond the fact that I need to run Hulk main bar and be Red Guard to get any decent use out of it. Two of the other very popular stam races Bosmer and Khajit will not reach those numbers.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • olsborg
    olsborg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I do agree with you that heavy armor is too attractive for PvP stamina builds. I think this is more to do with certain sets like Fury and 7th Legion having stronger damage 5th bonus than pretty much anything that can be found in the game. The extra healing, sustain, and resistance are all gravy, and with the option to get Evasion onto heavy with duel wield, there isn't any drawback. Though as I said this might be mostly because of those powerful sets; I am not so sure so many people would go for heavy without them.

    This is a very, very good point and what most ppl seem to agree on.

    PC EU
    PvP only
  • Soundinfinite
    Soundinfinite
    ✭✭✭
    @mojomood

    Hey there, thank you for taking the time to comment and give me feedback. I want to say your idea is most interesting. I do concur that Critical Damage should possibly walled into Light/Medium Armor. I do remember in a previous Rep meeting this being brought up. (I forget which one) It was proposed that possibly the % be moved to another skill tree etc. as they were too easy to obtain, no matter what armor you were wearing.

    Your idea of walling them into the Armor lines would make this quite effective; however, this also might make them still too easily attainable. They have nerf-ed the % which means you now get less from these CP Passives, but not enough that it will affect any Heavy Build make-ups. But it would mean that just wearing your armor would give you 20% boost to critical damage. (I do think it should be a flat number or % for wearing 5-pieces and NOT a per-piece component. Builds getting 28% critical from wearing 7 pieces is FAR too strong as just stated 20% is already seriously pushing it). Currently it is something you have to work towards, I.e. a reward for leveling your CP, and takes a NEW player time to amass enough CP points to have these passives. IF we put it into armor, it is almost like, here ya go, DAMAGE! Thus negating rewards from CP and the need to further fill-out your character.

    I do think though, your idea has some strong warrant, and is something to think about. I wonder if there is another way to "gate" critical behind just medium and light armor builds. Possibly a re-arrangement of the CP system so that investing in the qualities that would earn you this % is counter-intuitive to Heavy armor builds. Another possible way is to simply make the % have a qualifier. As in: Gives you 9% Critical Strike chance when wearing 5 piece light/medium armor.....

    Again, thank you for joining in the conversation!!!!
  • Soundinfinite
    Soundinfinite
    ✭✭✭
    @Toc de Malsvi

    Hello and thank you for joining in the conversation.

    I wanted to respond to your concerns on the build I put in previous response to another poster.

    1) The reason I chose Sorcerer for the example:

    As I stated in the initial response, I chose the Sorcerer because it is the ONLY class that gives equal buff to Max Magicka AND Max Stamina. I did state it was the ONLY class that could give you the Max Stats of the initial build. This example was purely to illustrate how HIGH both Magicka and Stamina could go on a build. I then stated that the initial MAx Stat builds were not truly feasible in a live game play build and thus brought those max stats to a level that would actually be useful, but again stated not BIS for a build, though some BIS sets are employed.

    Just as you cannot get this same amount of Max Stamina on all builds because of the Sorcerer class passives, you ALSO cannot get this same Max Magicka on all builds because of the Necropotence and Destructive Mastery set requirements as well as class passives. As also stated in the original post, Healer's cannot practically use Destructive Mastery in any way due to it requiring a Destructive Stave to be equipped. (Note; Healers likely single bar a Destructive Stave, but this defeats the purpose of the max stat bonus while healing, and thus much more viable sets are available). Also, ONLY Sorcerers and Wardens can utilize Necropotence due to it requiring Active Pets to function. Likewise, though other classes DO have an equal in Bound Aegis for Magicka Max stat boost, the Templar and Dragonknight do not. As such, BOTH builds the Magicka and Stamina would have VERY different values, and require very different make-ups when removing them from the Sorcerer class.

    2) The reason I chose a Redguard:

    Again, this leads back to the initial point that I was trying to illustrate how high a Max Stamina build can go. As such when building a Max Stat build, it is counter-intuitive to choose a Race (Khajit/Wood Elf) that does not offer any boost to said Max Stat when there are plenty of other options to choose from that do.

    With 10 races in the game, 6 of them are entirely Stamina focused, with an additional 2 (Dark Elf/Argonian) that are equal in building for Stamina or Magicka. Balancing the Max Stamina equation based on the two classes out of the bunch (Khajit/Wood Elf) that do not boost Max Stamina, (Argonian doesn't as well), because they are a preferred class choice, is not the way to balance. (I cannot comment on if Khajit/Wood Elf are truly more desired as I do not have numbers for or against this. As many top performers recommend the Redguard for most stamina roles, the Nightblade a possible exception). As with all things in ESO it is a gain/loss system. By choosing Khajit, for example, you gain a huge Health Regeneration buff and Critical Strike chance, but at the cost of Max Stamina. And ESO allows you the freedom of this choice when building a character.

    3) Issues with Arms of Relequen (Perfected) + Hulking Draugr + Stormfist 5-1-1 build Stats:

    I am not sure on some of the statements you made about issues with the stats from this build make-up.

    A) Why would Relequen be single barred?
    This confounds me as all builds are now allowed 12 slots no matter when choosing your weapons. Relequen takes 5, Hulking takes 5, and Stormfist 2. Thus equaling 12 slots. There is no single barring any of the sets in the build. They all fully function on both bars.

    B) I have run the numbers 3 additional times as for the Max Stamina with the build and again keep reaching 43,408 Max Stamina.
    I did round up and say 43.5k but that was because it was less than 100 away . I am sorry for that rounding. I am not sure as to why you are getting 2k less with your design, however. It possibly could be the single barring from point A, because I don't understand why, again, that is needed, and maybe if you rework the build where the sets function fully on both bars you will hit the 43,408 number. Note: All glyphs, armor pieces, and jewelry are Golden on said build, I don't believe I stated that initially. While the difference from Purple to Gold is minimal, it will give you lower max stat scores. This is further compounded in that 3 of the 5 pieces of Hulking is jewelry and most of the max stamina is coming from that set.

    C) All stats given were when fully self-buffed.
    I did not use Warhorn which would give both builds more max-stats because DPS doesn't normally run this Ultimate, it is run on a tank or healer thus not self-buffed. But All the builds will have higher max stats when this is used.

    The Stamina Regen in question though, does include all SELF-BUFFED stats. Drinking a Stamina Potion, Using 2-handed Battle Rush passive, as well as the Sorcerer Passive that gives 10% regeneration boost to stamina, and finally the Redguard passive of 9% boost are all included in that number. Also, there are 100 CP in Mooncalf giving an additional 15% boost. Possibly with all those activated you will reach the same 2058 number.

    However, no matter which way the build falls in the end, (your numbers or mine), the fact remains that 40k Max Stamina was reached as your build was already at 41k and change. Thus proving that 40k builds are reachable and feasible to use as a bases.

    3) Back to the point at hand and the 40k max stat number as a base. As previously mentioned 40k seems to be the "Goal" of a build. Tanks attempt to reach 40k Max Health, Magicka users 40k Max Magicka, and so also 40 Max Stamina for stamina users. Again, as previously stated, many builds employ LESS than this number, and many builds-especially Magicka, emply more. Depending on your chosen Race, Class, Role, and main Attribute focus, (Crit Build, Max Stat Build, Penetration Build, Raw Power build etc) depends on which stat you will be putting the most of your resources into. However for Balancing purposes the 40k number is an even round reachable number for use that parallels all Max Stat counterparts.

    Also, for performance requirements, the numbers given aren't restricted to a build that had 40k Max Stamina. As in now on live.

    With the current system you can have anywhere from 38,784 to 41,207 Max Stamina in a 5-1-1 Medium build with 56 CP in Tumbling, and you will theoretically hit 16 roll-dodges. Its a range, not a set number.

    As with my base + % equation structure, the same is true, and in-fact a larger range 37,650-42,480 Max Stamina will still net you a theoretical 16 roll-dodge count.

    Again the equation HELPS Lower Stamina pools while keeping the existing Stamina status-quo. So stamina builds between 37,650 to 38,784 are actually buoyed with an additional 1 roll-dodge.

    Thus, a Khajit with lower Max stamina on a character is actually helped and not hindered by the change.

    Last note on the subject, just for arguments sake I dropped a Sorcerer and put the same sets on a Templar. As a Stamina Templar is considered Stamina strained with little help in reduction of stamina costs, and no max stat boost, I wanted to see if 40k was still possible on a build that could run VET content. Again not a BIS build, but a feasible strong build.

    With the Arms of Relequen (Perfected) + Hulking Draugr + Stormfist Medium 5-1-1 all Gold build with the current CP of 780 allotted, a Redguard (Recommended for Stamina Templars by most end-game players) Templar still hits 40k at 40,608 Max Stamina. Meaning that 40k is a reachable number on any Stamina Class.

    I hope, this helps clear some things up on the build and why 40k is the base chosen in my system. Again, thank you for reading the post and comments of this thread, and taking the time to add to the discussion.



  • StamWhipCultist
    StamWhipCultist
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    eb8.gif
  • Elsterchen
    Elsterchen
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Soundinfinite I see where you are comming from and viewed from a perpective with PVE endconntent in mind you are probably right.

    BUT
    Try your suggested setups in cyro-PVP, or MA (yes, just for fun skip the veteran part), or PUG pledges (again: just skip the veteran part) or PUG battlegrounds...

    Imo the examples you provide are off margins for alot of content/ builds ( I understood this was the main argument of @Toc de Malsvi) players participate in, to allow assumtions on numbers affecting all content and builds.

    Again: Your argument is fine and really appriciated, but the complexity of the problem (or changes, if you like) is not well reflected in that part of numbers I can personally relate to.

    I can not judge your assumtions for magica numbers given, i don't play magica, so I don't know about it, but i would never ever even dream of taking you suggested max stam setup to anything else then trial-runs with my guildies. ... and even there I usually trade either survivabilty or weapon damage for some stamina stats, to maximize overall effectiveness of my non-progress guild-effort (Needless to say: You will not see me wandering into vet trials, unless I am dragged in unaware and totally drunk :D ).

    That said, I still feel that with the upcomming patch the changes to defence mechanisms shift more to an active and pro-active response. While this part is mostly liked by the playerbase, I (agree) think that active and pro-active defence mechanism need to be sustainable. Light armor as well as medium armor offer imo too little to compete with what heavy armor offers, in terms of survivability in combination with damage and ressource regeneration (I understood @Joy_Division pointing towards this aspect). Unfortunatelly we probably will only be able to get a better view on this once patch 20 goes live and the changes are tested in all content, nevertheless its good to think about and discuss this complex matter.

  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    I am not going to say I read everything, that is a lot to go through but this-
    . A) Why would Relequen be single barred?
    This confounds me as all builds are now allowed 12 slots no matter when choosing your weapons. Relequen takes 5, Hulking takes 5, and Stormfist 2. Thus equaling 12 slots. There is no single barring any of the sets in the build. They all fully function on both bars.

    The reason it matters is because of the vMA bow and vMA destro staff. No single items will raise DPS by as much as these for Stam/mag. You simply need to run one of these if you are a dps to get the top end DPS.
Sign In or Register to comment.