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Shields are OP in PvE, regardless of how certain people may try to defend it.
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Sigtric✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Sigtric
1) Many magsorcs have to use Zaan these days just to pretend to be competitive.
Tell me in the picture below how much more range do I have vs the melee.
(Before you complain about DPS: I was on purge duty as the skilbar shows)
In this case, this boss won't 1 shot you if he turns but most do. A shield is not going to save me. Actually, if I am low on magicka I have all of about 1 dodge before I die, while the guy next to me can roll away to the other side of the room.
2) At the next boss I was on "upper room duty". Since you claim you have done all the content (I have done it too, and several trials on hard mode too), you have to know that the time to finish the "minigame" is limited and then there's instant - trial group wipe. I have tried (for testing sake) doing it without a shield.
- I waste time to avoid the lightning on the ground. A stam character dodge rolls over it. I cannot for more than 1 of these "splashes" then I am dead.
- If I get "the ray", I die very fast while I am still positioning behind the add to kill. And then we all wipe.
- And no, a whole 11 people don't have time to wipe because I have to perform "poop" motions and wait for a shield to come up.
- I do "above" with 3 stamina buddies, none of them EVER dies. I do if I forget to shield up while I get the ray.
3) Stam and magblades deal so MUCH more DPS than magsorcs. You want a pure DPS class (sorc) to suck at DPS and ALSO have less defense than a stam DPS or a magblade? How's that fair?
Or perhaps, some other braindead "suggestion" I have read these days, where an already vastly underperforming, pure DPS class should backbar an heal staff and do 25k DPS while everyone else are doing 50-70k?
You're barking up the wrong tree. No where have I mentioned what sorcs should or shouldn't be capable of, what nerfs or buffs they deserve or anything regarding any of your pissing you tagged me in.
Stormproof: Vibeke - 50 EP mDragonknight | Savi Dreloth - 50 EP Magsorc | Sadi Dreloth - 50 EP Magblade | Sigtric Stormaxe - 50 EP Stamsorc | Valora Dreloth - 50 EP Magplar | Sigtric the Unbearable 50 EP Stam Warden
Scrub: Chews-on-Beavers - 50 EP DK Tank | Vera the Wild - 50 EP magicka Warden | Sigtric the Axe - 50 EP Dragonknight Crafter | Sigtric the Blade - 50 EP Lost Nightblade | Sigtric the Savage - 50 EP magicka Templar | Vibeka Shadowblade - 50 Ep Stealthy Ganky Nightblade |
Show Me Your Dunmer
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Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »In PVE, you aren't completing against your group.
You are, however, competing.
For one, you are competing against other classes for who is the most efficient at clearing content. This is ZOS' fault for balancing PVE like its a game of King of the Hill, but this isnt likely to change unless ZOS changes their balancing philosophy or players stop insisting on meta builds. So ZOS likes to change up which class gets to be king of the hill and thus the most in demand for end game content.
Competition against other classes is easy to see, typically shown in "Trials are dominated by [magicka/stamina]" or "Nobody wants my [insert class here],in end game content!" Or "this class is useless in PVE!" type complaining posts.
Second, you are competing against the content designers. If PVEers are completing ZOS's hardest content too easily, well, the devs are going to look at what is letting players overperform. Now, ZOS generally doesn't just straight nerf DPS. In the past, ZOS has nerfed sustain or certain sets, skills, passives, and armor weights. The Morrowind Sustain Nerfs were because of this. Now, ZOS is nerfing survivability in the form of damage shields and passive dodge chance.
This type of competition is harder to spot on the forums, because it typically happens when players are doing too well by the devs' standards, which usually makes players feel good! These show up as "This content is too easy!" or "This class has amazing DPS!" Or a certain set, skill, or build coming to dominate the end game meta. Usually there aren't complaints, because Molag Kena isn't going to come to the forums and the devs probably won't come right out and say "Players, you are too darned efficient and its easier to nerf you than design harder content that new players haven't a hope and a prayer of touching."
So from that perspective, there's reason to look at damage shields.
1. Were sorc wards and annulment allowing magicka builds to overperform in end game content relative to other classes? (ZOS appears to think so)
2. Were sorc wards and annulment and passive dodge chances allowing PVEers to complete end game content too easily? (ZOS appears to think so.)
How can sorcs "overperform" when at progression trials 7 magblades are invited and 1 healer magsorc, only for Alkosh buff?
How can a 45k DPS magsorc be the problem and not the 7 x 55k DPS magblades who cut the content kill time by half?Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO2 -
philfal1234✭✭This whole post assumes that stamina dps and magicka dps are on equal footing in every way except survivability. But they aren’t, stamina dps have a higher potential dps than every magicka dps(besides magblades). The play styles are totally different as well stam dps can be mobile and slippery with damage magicka is slow and doesn’t have the stamina to dodge roll much more than twice so magicka is given a ward to shield damage. In pve perhaps that has made them more survivable than stamina but if the channel time goes through all light armor builds will be at a supreme disadvantage in every aspect to Stam dps. Which fine if one dps style has every advantage that’s up to ZOS, but why do we have to nerf survivability for magicka dps why can’t stamina dps just get a buff? There’s already passives that increase hp pool temporarily why not just make that available to Stam? Why does ZOS respond to popular playstyles with a nerf?2 -
drkfrontiers✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nothing can ever be op in PVE that does not affect another player. In a trial or dungeon I very much appreciate my team members able to stay alive. Why would anyone ever want that to change other than out of vanity."One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star."
~ Friedrich Nietzsche6 -
DanteYoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Its always these pvpers ruining content, doesn't matter what game it is its always the same in every mmorpg.4 -
RavenSworn✭✭✭✭✭Just want to add something to this conversation.
- not all shields have the cast times.
- other class shields are instant.
- gear based shield are instant as well.
- evasion buff will be changed to aoe mitigation, passive dodging is taken off from the game while still maintaining the name.
I will agree though, that the cast time is too long, and it should have been a half second cast, rather than a full second.
There are already players changing out their gear, tweaking their builds to suit this change.
Not saying its a good change, but the amount of non testing in the pts is too low to even justify the feedback they are getting.Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.
Of Wolf and Raven
Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Its always these pvpers ruining content, doesn't matter what game it is its always the same in every mmorpg.
You need to review the devs' comments in the last class rep meeting notes and the comment here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5469409#Comment_5469409
Wherein its made clear there are PVP and PVE reasons for the damage shield nerfs.
Specifically: "First I'd like to talk about our motivation with the change. We believe choices between damage output and survivability make combat more interesting. There are a number of areas within our system that could better adhere to this philosophy, but these self-cast damage shield abilities stood out as being particularly out of line. It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation. This applied to both PvE and PvP scenarios."
But by all means, continue complaining about those darned PVPers ruining your PVE content. (Or I need my sarcasm detector recalibrated, again.)Edited by VaranisArano on September 23, 2018 12:58AM1 -
Itzmichi✭✭✭✭✭The first constructive thread someone posted after pts patch notes. Chapeau, sir!
I agree with you, this was actually one of many reasons why I switched to stamina.Here, have a chill pill 💊!0 -
ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You have to think the backup plan if u dont cast shield.
At least block at the omg moment
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Perwulf✭✭✭✭✭kathandira wrote: »This all collapses when you consider that a stam player can use a magicka shield as well. Just level up Light Armor, pick up Annulment, and use it when it is needed.
Only costs 4k magicka, and will protect you from 6k damage.
Great in theory but not in paper. Who in the right mind would pick damage shield over cleansing a stack of negative buffs? Cleansing abilities already costs magicka and stamina players only have around 10k magicka or fewer. Even if you can cast both shield and cleanse, you won't be able to keep up with the negative effects being thrown at you. Your magicka regen can't keep up with that. Even more so, the sacrificing of 5 pcs medium armor.
Edited by Perwulf on September 23, 2018 5:38AM"Monsters doesn't exist, we create them"0 -
f047ys3v3n✭✭✭✭✭
✭You mention vMA. I've done that on a variety of classes and builds. It is far easier on a stam sorc than anything else I have tried. Shields seem like a bigger advantage than they really are. The innate resistance advantage that stam toons have is, conversely, underrated.
I am currently worried for the future of ESO. Population seems like it is in free fall and the cancellation of the North America in-person gathering feels very much like pulling the plug. Kudos on fixing the in-game economy though. Clearly whatever gold shenanigans were happening the last couple years are fixed.0 -
ResTandRespeC✭✭✭✭I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.
Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.
Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.
I honestly don't think they were designed with either in mind. How could they possibly design the content around either when they themselves can't clear the content? That being said I think the shield nerfs are stupid af, as there are several area's in the game that can't be cleared by a bunch of tanks running around and therefore need light and medium armor builds to clear them, yet with this 1s shield bs it will just make the mechanics impossible. In vAS+2 for example I have no idea how anyone is going to survive getting the defile cone while needing to kite lightning. You get defiled, so self healing doesn't do jack. You can't block (how poison cone is supposed to normally be dealt with) since lightning will kill you since you are too slow. And now you can't shield because you'll be too slowed down by the animation to survive the lightning. And your healers and tanks can't do much for you when there on opposite ends of the map. All that coupled with console lag, It's ridiculous. So basically if it happens you have to just take the L and be rezzed.... but wait? There are achievements for "no death" runs? So your supposed to be able to do it without dying with enough skill.
Honestly I could care less about the stam/mag meta etc etc. I'll play whatever's needed. Shield nerfing isn't the way to go about that at the moment though. ZoS just hastily implements new nerfs and buff without ever thinking how they influence other things in the game, and then take forever to fix whatever they brake and its getting old.2 -
ResTandRespeC✭✭✭✭DMuehlhausen wrote: »usmguy1234 wrote: »I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.
Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.
Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.
Yet this still doesn't address the real issue and that is Instagib mechanics in a pve are a lazy way to add difficulty to it.
I agree with both you and the OP. Trials should maybe have some one shot mechanics. vet dungeons though DLC or original ones nothing should be a one shot mechanic.
Why?0 -
LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭kathandira wrote: »This all collapses when you consider that a stam player can use a magicka shield as well. Just level up Light Armor, pick up Annulment, and use it when it is needed.
Only costs 4k magicka, and will protect you from 6k damage.
Great in theory but not in paper. Who in the right mind would pick damage shield over cleansing a stack of negative buffs? Cleansing abilities already costs magicka and stamina players only have around 10k magicka or fewer. Even if you can cast both shield and cleanse, you won't be able to keep up with the negative effects being thrown at you. Your magicka regen can't keep up with that. Even more so, the sacrificing of 5 pcs medium armor.
Prisoners rags set might help0 -
Emmagoldman✭✭✭✭✭
✭There are plenty of skills that over perform, such as vigor whoch can be put in a rotation and pretty much keep you up the fight. Being able to have stam to break free or roll dodge is also very important. I personally feel stam is better for vet fanglair then a mag toon
Annulment shouldnt be touched or crittable. for light armor builds, besides sorcs, this is the one shield they have access to. Yes there is the restro shield as well, however it targets the lowest health target or class skills that are very costly In pve, restro isnt really used.
if the concern is harden ward on sorc, then make an adjustment. Yet the class is best played and the most enjoyable when you can kite. In return, they should also increase streaks distance, even if by 2m, lower the cost and stun. or gives sorcs stun on frags at the current low dmg
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Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The OP is correct, but the change to shields is the way ZOS should have handled the issue.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.0 -
jwarren68✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »The OP is correct, but the change to shields is the way ZOS should have handled the issue.
Exsqueeze me?1 -
I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.
Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.
Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.
You totally miss the point for the necessity of shields in PVE:
Magicka based characters have a lot less resistances compared to stamina and therefore take a lot more damage. Also stamina characters have other instant cast defensive abilities such as blade cloak. Also stamina DDs have a lot larger stamina pool to dodge roll and block one shot mechanics compared to magicka.
Also in trials stamina characters are stacked on the boss and constantly focused by healers. Magicka are ranged and get a lot less healing. Just force all stamina DDs to swap positions with magicka DDs and they will be most certainly dead.
These are the main reasons on why we are trying ZOS to change their minds for the shield cast times.
Because do you know what will happen for raid groups that are not part of the elite 10 leaderboards: magicka DDs will just run a backbar restored staff for instance cast shields. Although their damage will get a bit lower because of that, the healers will be completely removed from most trial configurations and replaced with a bunch of magicka DDs with resto staffs.
That is not a good change both for magicka DDs and for healers.Edited by rosendoichinoveb17_ESO on September 23, 2018 2:43PM1