Why we shouldn’t advocate for PvE nerfs

philfal1234 · September 2018

Because we’re on the same team, because everyone has every class (except wardens) and play-style available to them. I don’t want the groups I run with to be weaker so that my class or play style can stand out. That’s so counterintuitive. It’s also lazy for ZOS to just nerf survivability because they can’t come up with new and challenging fights for the players. It’s a very unfortunate route this game is on where so many are willing to criticize a class and play style for being too strong rather than advocating for their class to be brought to par. It’s also shocking that some are fine with ZOS’s lazy treatment of PvE mechanics only when it serves how they compare to another class, that’s not what a gaming community should be about.

MrGraves · September 2018

philfal1234 wrote: »

Because we’re on the same team, because everyone has every class (except wardens) and play-style available to them. I don’t want the groups I run with to be weaker so that my class or play style can stand out. That’s so counterintuitive. It’s also lazy for ZOS to just nerf survivability because they can’t come up with new and challenging fights for the players. It’s a very unfortunate route this game is on where so many are willing to criticize a class and play style for being too strong rather than advocating for their class to be brought to par. It’s also shocking that some are fine with ZOS’s lazy treatment of PvE mechanics only when it serves how they compare to another class, that’s not what a gaming community should be about.

ZoS seems to kinda like using the one shot abilities/gimmicks in PvE content which kills you no matter how durable you are though. unless x y and z mechanics happen that are specific to the dungeon/trial fight.

But yeah I agree. I kind of don't get why we don't just have pvp/pve separate in some ways with what abilities do. We already have sets that are specific to pvp/pve anyway. I dont think that means all nerfs should happen to pvp either but when both 'have' to have nerfs it just makes everything... Bad. The only problem I have with a class/playstyle being too strong is that when the dps get too strong all my support characters suffer for it.

runagate · September 2018

I think a better argument could be made that, since those who implement these changes do so based on "themes" such as "we got feedback that someone summarized as this class is losing it's unique identity" or "we imagine this class as not especially mobile but as one who stands their ground", more of their tweaks for "balance" result in catastrophe than in positive changes.

Because they don't play the game and know nothing about the implications of the changes. I refer primarily to skills and especially the itemization team. I'll never forget the "guild summit" audio recordings. The itemization people stood out as particular unaware of even the most basic aspect of playing this game. This remains the same today. What can you say after this last PTS patch?

It's hopeless. They've had enough time to take interest and pride in their own product, go home at night, and participate in this thing we all love and that their actions effect so deeply, and learn what any long term, weekend warrior, casual player of this game would know. Enough not to repeatedly make wild swings in the wrong direction.

VaranisArano · September 2018

A. You aren't all on the same team. Thanks to meta chasers who exclude classes who are less efficient at completing content, you are competing against each other for those 12 spots on the Trials team. This is the major complaint PVEers have - their class being unwanted in end game compared to other classes. ZOS hands out periodic nerfs and buffs so everyone gets their place in the sun.

B. Once you've got your team, you are competing against the devs and their content development. You can call them "lazy" for handing out nerfs if you want, but its how they've decided to keep old content relevant and not have to design stuff that newer players haven't a hope of touching.

Mister_DMC · September 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

A. You aren't all on the same team. Thanks to meta chasers who exclude classes who are less efficient at completing content, you are competing against each other for those 12 spots on the Trials team. This is the major complaint PVEers have - their class being unwanted in end game compared to other classes. ZOS hands out periodic nerfs and buffs so everyone gets their place in the sun.

B. Once you've got your team, you are competing against the devs and their content development. You can call them "lazy" for handing out nerfs if you want, but its how they've decided to keep old content relevant and not have to design stuff that newer players haven't a hope of touching.

Correct and to keep things interesting they have to make more difficult, mechanically interesting dungeons and trials which unfortunately seem impossible to the majority of the player base.

I've never played another MMO, is it common to have content that 98% of the player base won't be able to complete?

Starlock · September 2018

It isn’t really true that every playstyle is available to all players. Don’t own the dungeon DLC or don’t have the time (or inclination) to grind 1 hour dungeons repeatedly for their gear? Those play styles are not accessible to you. Have poorer internet? Forget about being a damge dealer. Heck, forget about being a damage dealer in general when the ‘elite’ can literally pull two or three times the dps as ‘regular’ players who genuinely try their best.

MehrunesFlagon · September 2018

philfal1234 wrote: »

Because we’re on the same team, because everyone has every class (except wardens) and play-style available to them. I don’t want the groups I run with to be weaker so that my class or play style can stand out. That’s so counterintuitive. It’s also lazy for ZOS to just nerf survivability because they can’t come up with new and challenging fights for the players. It’s a very unfortunate route this game is on where so many are willing to criticize a class and play style for being too strong rather than advocating for their class to be brought to par. It’s also shocking that some are fine with ZOS’s lazy treatment of PvE mechanics only when it serves how they compare to another class, that’s not what a gaming community should be about.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Emmagoldman · September 2018

I think the power creep is from cp and the lack of creativity along with creating more and more powerfull sets. Content is then made more difficult and then gear is made to fit the content. it goes on and on. Yet that is also part of the marketing to hype interest in new content. In the bust is a bunch of old sets. Flankng set....no thanks

I would like to see emphasis in new type of content, weapons, skill lines, ect instead of the same model and level off cp and work in the same framework.

Yet the powercreep model is effective because its a carrot on a stick.....must have new gear....... and fills the addictive nature of grabing rewards

Kiralyn2000 · September 2018

Mister_DMC wrote: »

I've never played another MMO, is it common to have content that 98% of the player base won't be able to complete?

Hmm, back in the early expansions, the top-most World of Warcraft raids were only done & completed by a single-digit % of the playerbase. They eventually tried to make raiding "more accessible", but I don't know where it is at this point.

Ydrisselle · September 2018

Mister_DMC wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A. You aren't all on the same team. Thanks to meta chasers who exclude classes who are less efficient at completing content, you are competing against each other for those 12 spots on the Trials team. This is the major complaint PVEers have - their class being unwanted in end game compared to other classes. ZOS hands out periodic nerfs and buffs so everyone gets their place in the sun.

B. Once you've got your team, you are competing against the devs and their content development. You can call them "lazy" for handing out nerfs if you want, but its how they've decided to keep old content relevant and not have to design stuff that newer players haven't a hope of touching.

Correct and to keep things interesting they have to make more difficult, mechanically interesting dungeons and trials which unfortunately seem impossible to the majority of the player base.

I've never played another MMO, is it common to have content that 98% of the player base won't be able to complete?

It was 10 years ago. Today it is seen as bad design.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Mister_DMC wrote: »

I've never played another MMO, is it common to have content that 98% of the player base won't be able to complete?

Hmm, back in the early expansions, the top-most World of Warcraft raids were only done & completed by a single-digit % of the playerbase. They eventually tried to make raiding "more accessible", but I don't know where it is at this point.

Now everybody can go to raid in a very easy difficulty setting, almost after reaching the lvl cap. You can get the gear for it from world quests and dungeons.

FlyingSwan · September 2018

Mister_DMC wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A. You aren't all on the same team. Thanks to meta chasers who exclude classes who are less efficient at completing content, you are competing against each other for those 12 spots on the Trials team. This is the major complaint PVEers have - their class being unwanted in end game compared to other classes. ZOS hands out periodic nerfs and buffs so everyone gets their place in the sun.

B. Once you've got your team, you are competing against the devs and their content development. You can call them "lazy" for handing out nerfs if you want, but its how they've decided to keep old content relevant and not have to design stuff that newer players haven't a hope of touching.

Correct and to keep things interesting they have to make more difficult, mechanically interesting dungeons and trials which unfortunately seem impossible to the majority of the player base.

I've never played another MMO, is it common to have content that 98% of the player base won't be able to complete?

Yes, most MMOs have some elite content that will challenge and reward only the very best and most committed players, even if that's only hard modes of readily available content. The vast bulk of the content will be casual friendly, but all developers should be aware that if they don't provide some content that challenges even the very best of the best, their game will be seen as an also-ran n00bfest, and also, we all want to aim for the sky, even if we may not get there (myself included, as I am decidedly casual).

ESO has very basic mechanics and what you'll see the devs do for 'hard' content, is simply buff the boss' HP and put in a load of one-shots. That's not tricky mechanics, that's a boring slog, you may wipe a couple of times but once you've assessed what took you down, you simply avoid it by rote next time. A more imaginitive developer would create top-tier content that possesses technically complex mechanics. As MMOs go, ESO is a pretty typical theme park game, but it has the Elder Scrolls name, so gets away with a lot of laziness that would kill off any other game.

I'm a total casual, but I've yet to discover anything of challenge in ESO, but I will say I've not completed all the trials in hard-mode. But certainly none of the vet dungeons possess anything particularly challenging to a reasonable team. We wiped a couple of times to the poison boss in Scalecaller Vet today, but once I'd explained the poison mech to the tank, it was a cakewalk.

I am max CP but the non-vet modes of all dungeons and trials are easy.

Gorgoneus · September 2018

Few more nerfs, and most players can forget about maelstrom arena vet mode. Well done, ZoS, well done.

Oakmontowls_ESO · September 2018

All content has an easy normal mode for people that can't complete vet. The only exception that I can think of is nHoF is still pretty challenging.