PvP Stamina Sorc compared to other classes (long one)

gpiolettipreeb18_ESO
gpiolettipreeb18_ESO
Soul Shriven
Hi all, it's long time i want to make this post.
I've been into this game since beta and StamSorc it's my main since 3 years, i agree with last changes and nerf to Dark Deal and Overload 3rd bar but after those changes a redesign of this class is mandatory because we are going to have even less buffs and chances to survive.

I'm writing all this text because i hope it will help to improve this game, i've appreciated many changes made by ZOS and i'm pretty sure you'll think also to sorc...if you finally nerfed shields after 4 years, we can always hope!
I'm sorry if i made some mistakes, please tell me.

I made 4 tables to compare all stamina classes:
Into those tables i've put all Stamina relevant passives, stamina morph of skills and some magicka skills which you don't need to spam and you can sustain on a stamina char, tha's why you'll se Crit Surge and not Streak or Toppling Charge.

I'll draw my own conclusion first so those who don't want to read the wall of text are free to stop here, at the end you'll find all the 4 tables with the name of the skills taken in account.
Table 1 – Buffs
Warden and Nightblade both shine here, they got 10 official buffs and keep being buffed every patch.
Dragonknight and Templars follow with half the buffes, luckly Templars got buffed this patch.
Sorcerer is the last one and, apart from generic buffs like Major Ward and Major Resolve, we only get Minor Expedition...nothing compared to classes who got Mending, Berserk or Protection.

Table 2 – Debuffs
Again Warden and Nightblade to the very top with all the best debuffs into the game.
Dragonknight and Templars follow with minor things.
Sorcerer got nothing.

Table 3 – Generic Boons
Here things changes a bit.
Templars and Dragonknight are the best with bonus to nearly everything.
Sorcerers are finally average with some regen and reduce costs, but again nothing important like buffs to defences or healing, and a buff to damage which is useless since we need to use only weapon skill on our main damage bar and can't slot more than one or two class skills.
Warden and Nightblade are at the end, but not that much.

Table 4 – Class Skills
This table is different because you can usually have only one buff, a second of the same will overwrite, while you can have multiple skills with the same effect.
Here Wardens are at the top of the food chain (and of course of the fun), they have everything: ultimate, spammable skills, CCs endless regen.
Dragonknight and Nightblade follow very close with full of utilities, even if Dks still lack of a true spammable attack but at least got many Dots, powerfull ulties and lot of regen and defences.
Templars are behind and i repeat luckly they got buffed last patch.
Last AND Least Sorcerers with just Hurricane and Implosion to shine, no defences, no healing or sustain apart Dark Deal which is cast time and interruptable nothing compared to Bully Netch or whatever.

So after this comparison don't be surprised when you see many stamblade and stamwarden around, to be honest i dont want to change.
I mean i have every stam class maxed and i could start playing stamden, but I LIKE my stamsorc, i dont want to cast flowers and trees, i like hurricanes and thunders!
What i dont like is to be pushed to play something i dislike only because it's 200% more powerfull, please i bought your game, Morrowind and Summerset aswell...i dont want nobody to be nerfed, only that you make justice of a huge difference that even a blind man would see.

Thank you.

Follow tables

Table 1 – Buffs
Warden
Buffs (10): Major Mending, Major Endurance, Minor Toughness, Major Ward, Major Resolve, Minor Evasion, Major Expedition, Major Heroism, Minor Berserk, Minor Protection
Skills: Falcon’s Swiftness (active), Green Lotus (active), Accelerated Growth (passive), Ice Fortress (active), Shimmering Shield (active), Maturation (passive).
Nightblade
Buffs (10): Major Brutality, Minor Endurance, Major Ward, Major Resolve, Major Evasion, Major Expedition, Major Berserk, Minor Berserk, Minor Savagery, Minor Protection
Skills: Reaper’s Mark (active), Relentless Focus (active), Power Extraction (active), Hemorrhage (passive), Shadow Barrier (passive), Dark Cloak (active), Double take (active).
Templar
Buffs (6): Minor Mending, Major Ward, Major Resolve, Major Savagery, Major Protection, Minor Protection
Skills: Biting Jabs (active), Sacred Ground (passive), Restoring Focus (active), Empowering Sweep (ultimate).
Dragonknight
Buffs (5): Major Brutality, Minor Brutality, Major Mending, Major Ward, Major Resolve
Skills: Hardened Armor (active), Igneous Weapons (active), Mountain’s Blessing (Passive), Fragmented Shield (active).
Sorcerer
Buffs (4): Major Brutality, Major Ward, Major Resolve, Minor Expetition
Skills: Critical Surge (active), Hurricane (active).


Table 2 – Debuffs
Nightblade
Debuffs (3): Major Fracture, Major Defile, Minor Maim.
Skills: Reaper’s Mark (active), Surprise attack (active), Mass Hysteria (active), Incapacitating Strike (ultimate).
Warden
Debuffs (2): Major Fracture, Minor Lifesteal.
Skills: Subterranean Assault (active), Leeching Vines (active).
Dragonknight
Debuffs (1): Major Fracture.
Skills: Noxious Breath (active).
Templar
Debuffs (1): Minor Fracture.
Skills: Power of the Light (active).
Sorcerer
Debuffs (0): .

Table 3 – Generic Boons
Templar
Bonus (11): Health regen, Stamina regen, Magika regen, Ulti. regen, Ulti. reduce cost, Stamina reduce cost, Magika reduce cost, Bonus to critical, Bonus to damage, Bonus to healing, Bonus to resistances.
Skills: Piercing Spear (Passive), Balanced Warrior (passive), Prism (Passive), Restoring Spirit (Passive), Mending (passive), Repentance (active).
Dragonknight
Bonus (8): Max Stats, Health regen, Stamina regen, Ulti. regen, Stamina reduce cost, Bonus to damage, Bonus to healing, Bonus to resistances.
Skills: Searing Heat (passive), World in Ruin (passive), Burning Hearth (passive), Scaled Armor (passive), Elder Dragon (passive), Elder Dragon (passive), Mountain’s Blessing (Passive).
Sorcerer
Bonus (8): Max Stats, Health regen, Stamina regen, Magika regen, Ulti. reduce cost, Stamina reduce cost, Magika reduce cost, Bonus to damage.
Skills: Daedric protection (passive), Bound armaments (active), Energized (passive), Expert Mage (passive) irrelevant since Stam.Sorc. needs to use weapon skill on his main dmg bar), Power Stone (passive), Unholy Knowledge (passive).
Warden
Bonus (6): Stamina regen, Magika regen, Ulti. regen, Bonus to damage, Bonus to healing, Bonus to resistances.
Skills: Savage Beast (Passive), Flourish (Passive), Advanced Species (Passive), Emerald Moss (passive), Frozen Armor (passive).
Nightblade
Bonus (5): Max Stats, Health regen, Stamina regen, Magika regen, Ulti. regen.
Skills: Master Assassin (passive), Pressure Point (passive), Hemorrhage (passive), Refreshing Shadows (passive), Transfer (passive).

Table 4 – Class Skills
Warden: 14
Nightblade: 12
Dragonknight: 11
Templar: 9
Sorcerer: 6

Main Spammable
Warden: Cutting Dive (active), Subterranean Assault (active).
Nightblade: Surprise attack (active).
Templar: Biting Jabs (active).
Sorcerer: No
Dragonknight: No

Gapcloser
Nightblade: Ambush (active).
Templar: No
Sorcerer: No
Dragonknight: No
Warden: No

Dot
Dragonknight: Venomous Claw (active), Noxious Breath (active).
Sorcerer: Hurricane (active).
Templar: Power of the Light (active).
Nightblade: No
Warden: No

Regen Skill
Dragonknight: Combustion (passive), Battle Roar (passive), Helping Hands (passive).
Nightblade: Executioner (passive), Leeching Strikes (active), Catalyst (passive).
Warden: Bull Netch (active), Nature’s Gift (passive).
Sorcerer: Dark Deal (active), Capacitor (passive).
Templar: Restoring Focus (active).

Snares and CCs
Dragonknight: Take Flight (ultimate), Warmth (passive).
Nightblade: Incapacitating Strike (ultimate), Mass Hysteria (active).
Templar: Binding Javelin (active), Sacred Ground (passive).
Warden: Permafrost (ultimate), Glacial Presence (passive).
Sorcerer: No

Defense and Heals
Warden: Shooting Spores (active), Leeching Vines (active), Shimmering Shield (active), Green Lotus (active), Icy Aura (passive).
Nightblade: Double take (active), Dark Cloak (active), Shadow Image (actrive)
Dragonknight: Iron Skin (passive), Fragmented Shield (active).
Templar: Extended Ritual (active), Repentance (active).
Sorcerer: Critical Surge (active), Dark Deal (active).

Ultimate
Warden: Wild Guardian, Permafrost, Healing Thicket.
Dragonknight: Take Flight, Corrosive Armor.
Nightblade: Incapacitating Strike
Templar: Empowering Sweep
Sorcerer: No

Execute
Sorcerer: Implosion (passive).
Nightblade: Killer’s Blade (active).
Templar: Burning Light (Passive).
Dragonknight: No
Warden: No
  • PickleRick
    PickleRick
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    Ok, but you understand on live that stam sorc is top 3 strongest specs in PVP, right?
    Come on, flip the pickle, Morty, you're not gonna regret it. The payoff is huge. I turned myself into a pickle, Morty! Boom! Big reveal! I'm a pickle! What do you think about that? I turned myself into a pickle! W-w-what are you just staring at me for, bro, I turned myself into a pickle, Morty.
  • BlackLabel
    BlackLabel
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    PickleRick wrote: »
    Ok, but you understand on live that stam sorc is top 3 strongest specs in PVP, right?
    Not true
  • PickleRick
    PickleRick
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    BlackLabel wrote: »
    PickleRick wrote: »
    Ok, but you understand on live that stam sorc is top 3 strongest specs in PVP, right?
    Not true

    Stamblade
    Stam Warden
    Stam Sorc


    Stam Sorc has the most mobility and the best sustain of any spec in the game. You can run 3x damage sets and hit 7k+ WD while also having better healing than everything but Stam DK. You have a passive execute that has perfect synergy with your offensive mechanics. You have an AoE stun that doubles as a way to reposition.
    Edited by PickleRick on September 22, 2018 4:04AM
    Come on, flip the pickle, Morty, you're not gonna regret it. The payoff is huge. I turned myself into a pickle, Morty! Boom! Big reveal! I'm a pickle! What do you think about that? I turned myself into a pickle! W-w-what are you just staring at me for, bro, I turned myself into a pickle, Morty.
  • gpiolettipreeb18_ESO
    gpiolettipreeb18_ESO
    Soul Shriven
    PickleRick wrote: »
    BlackLabel wrote: »
    PickleRick wrote: »
    Ok, but you understand on live that stam sorc is top 3 strongest specs in PVP, right?
    Not true

    Stamblade
    Stam Warden
    Stam Sorc


    Stam Sorc has the most mobility and the best sustain of any spec in the game. You can run 3x damage sets and hit 7k+ WD while also having better healing than everything but Stam DK. You have a passive execute that has perfect synergy with your offensive mechanics. You have an AoE stun that doubles as a way to reposition.

    I respect anyone's opinion, but your statements aren't supported by solid proofs...you show just feelings.
    You clearly never played a Stam Sorc, or with 3 Damage set, you are just a zergling carried by healers.
    This thread by the way want to show with solid arguments the status of the class, his aim isn't to be home for trolls.
  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    PickleRick wrote: »
    BlackLabel wrote: »
    PickleRick wrote: »
    Ok, but you understand on live that stam sorc is top 3 strongest specs in PVP, right?
    Not true

    Stamblade
    Stam Warden
    Stam Sorc


    Stam Sorc has the most mobility and the best sustain of any spec in the game. You can run 3x damage sets and hit 7k+ WD while also having better healing than everything but Stam DK. You have a passive execute that has perfect synergy with your offensive mechanics. You have an AoE stun that doubles as a way to reposition.

    I respect anyone's opinion, but your statements aren't supported by solid proofs...you show just feelings.
    You clearly never played a Stam Sorc, or with 3 Damage set, you are just a zergling carried by healers.
    This thread by the way want to show with solid arguments the status of the class, his aim isn't to be home for trolls.

    No, he's pretty much correct...Those three stam users are currently the best three, and they're pretty much top in terms of classes (those Magicka Sorc and NB are up there also)

  • Mojomonkeyman
    Mojomonkeyman
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    1) Your buff-debuff lists are incomplete.
    2) Your lists are biased because you imply every stamina setup wouldve access to all respective class native buffs/debuffs - which makes Stamsorc look way worse than it is (Sorc has indeed the lowest number of class native buffs/debuffs, but in the end only 2/5 stam versions of the classes are even able to incorporate more than 2-3 into their builds).
    3) You fail to recognize how well certain weapon-/alliance-/world skills complete the Stamsorc toolset

    I've mained Stamsorc for 3 years since open beta, have two of them fully developed on AR35+ with 2-3k combined BG matches. Stamsorc is one of the most potent stamina setups for a quite a while now and I cannot see any reason why that would change in the coming patch. Yes, outshined by Wardens and NBs in some areas, but Stamsorc is equally outperforming them in other areas.
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy
  • Luckylancer
    Luckylancer
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    Snares and CCs
    Warden: Permafrost (ultimate), Glacial Presence (passive).
    Sorcerer: No

    Warden's snares are so bad, warden is forced to use weapons for snare. Ult is high cost, passive is useless. You look at half side of your cup and full side of others. With this mentality, it is normal to see everthing more grim than it seems. And why you dont meantion streak? If a skill is used on stam chracter, thet is the only requirement for mentioning it. Mag cost or anything else dont matter.

    But stam sorc is a generic skill class that have surge, streak and hurricane. ZoS burry a class to ground with nerfs but dont give any buffs to compansate.

    Rip your sorc
  • cpuScientist
    cpuScientist
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    PickleRick wrote: »
    BlackLabel wrote: »
    PickleRick wrote: »
    Ok, but you understand on live that stam sorc is top 3 strongest specs in PVP, right?
    Not true

    Stamblade
    Stam Warden
    Stam Sorc


    Stam Sorc has the most mobility and the best sustain of any spec in the game. You can run 3x damage sets and hit 7k+ WD while also having better healing than everything but Stam DK. You have a passive execute that has perfect synergy with your offensive mechanics. You have an AoE stun that doubles as a way to reposition.

    This 3 damage set thing is kinda hilarious when brought up. Seeing as every Stam already uses fury Sevenths and they all either use blood spawn or troll king.

    And many stamSorcs have learned that you can't rely on that dark deal as is to sustain you, then when this patch drops woooo even less.

    This is why a very popular build has been fury bone.

    StamSorc is fully outclassed by stamDen there is nothing at all a stamDen doesn't do better.

    Furthermore this myth of better mobility. Maybe in years pass. But Swifty is a thing. And you can get off one streak with the pitiful mag, especially if you are as you say 3 damage sets you gonna be spamming that alot boi.

    StamSorc is basically the rebel pick for those that don't want to ppay stamDen or haven't bought it yet. Also stamSorc healing is good if you have critsurge and the criteria to get good use out of it. And no one bashes you during your dark deal spam.

    And with the proposed changes LOL no 3rd bar whew dark deal nerfed to the ground yet still with a cast time WHEW.

    StamSorcs will at least be good mat farmers. Well actually nah cause hurricane pulls mobs.

    Will people adapt yes, but they will be adapting to just using a demonstrativly worst class cause it's been their main. A class that will now finally as ZOS has wanted for so long have truly nothing going for it. The poor forgotten Stam toon.
  • cpuScientist
    cpuScientist
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    1) Your buff-debuff lists are incomplete.
    2) Your lists are biased because you imply every stamina setup wouldve access to all respective class native buffs/debuffs - which makes Stamsorc look way worse than it is (Sorc has indeed the lowest number of class native buffs/debuffs, but in the end only 2/5 stam versions of the classes are even able to incorporate more than 2-3 into their builds).
    3) You fail to recognize how well certain weapon-/alliance-/world skills complete the Stamsorc toolset

    I've mained Stamsorc for 3 years since open beta, have two of them fully developed on AR35+ with 2-3k combined BG matches. Stamsorc is one of the most potent stamina setups for a quite a while now and I cannot see any reason why that would change in the coming patch. Yes, outshined by Wardens and NBs in some areas, but Stamsorc is equally outperforming them in other areas.

    Which areas are stamSorcs out performing them?
  • Crixus8000
    Crixus8000
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    Stamsorc is seen as good because of the 10% speed (even though it's a small buff, doesn't make us super fast) the rng execute that everyone hates and dark deal.

    Dark deal is getting nerfed. Everyone can use swift and the execute is rng. Stamsorc is lacking, simple as that. Just because most stamsorcs get carried by bleeds and spin2win doesn't make the class amazing.

    I think stamsorc would be much better off if they just removed implosion and nerfed hurricane speed. Then the class could maybe get some buffs, more usable passives and maybe get an identity.
  • BlackLabel
    BlackLabel
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    PickleRick wrote: »
    BlackLabel wrote: »
    PickleRick wrote: »
    Ok, but you understand on live that stam sorc is top 3 strongest specs in PVP, right?
    Not true

    Stamblade
    Stam Warden
    Stam Sorc


    Stam Sorc has the most mobility and the best sustain of any spec in the game. You can run 3x damage sets and hit 7k+ WD while also having better healing than everything but Stam DK. You have a passive execute that has perfect synergy with your offensive mechanics. You have an AoE stun that doubles as a way to reposition.

    That all sounds good on paper but when you play a Stam Sorc you quickly realize it not as strong as you would think. Doesn’t have access to majority of buffs, No purge, no spammable, weak healing , etc..Perhaps look at all the things it is lacking compared to other classes and you will understand.
  • gpiolettipreeb18_ESO
    gpiolettipreeb18_ESO
    Soul Shriven
    Xsorus wrote: »
    No, he's pretty much correct...Those three stam users are currently the best three, and they're pretty much top in terms of classes (those Magicka Sorc and NB are up there also)

    If we are talking in general then i totally disagree, togheter with Stamden and Stamblade there are Magplar and Magblade and i think that next patch Stamplar will shine and it's well deserved...moreover i'm pretty sure Magsorc will still be a very powerfull class even without shields.

    If we are talking only about stamina classes, which is the aim of this post and i'd like we don't move from my original intent, i already said that Stamden and Stamblade are first and it's not important who you will place on 3rd place even if it's Stamplar and his new buff the true is that the other 3 classes are far away from the top.
    1) Your buff-debuff lists are incomplete.
    2) Your lists are biased because you imply every stamina setup wouldve access to all respective class native buffs/debuffs - which makes Stamsorc look way worse than it is (Sorc has indeed the lowest number of class native buffs/debuffs, but in the end only 2/5 stam versions of the classes are even able to incorporate more than 2-3 into their builds).
    3) You fail to recognize how well certain weapon-/alliance-/world skills complete the Stamsorc toolset

    I've mained Stamsorc for 3 years since open beta, have two of them fully developed on AR35+ with 2-3k combined BG matches. Stamsorc is one of the most potent stamina setups for a quite a while now and I cannot see any reason why that would change in the coming patch. Yes, outshined by Wardens and NBs in some areas, but Stamsorc is equally outperforming them in other areas.

    1) Say where and how if you want to be helpfull, stay out if you want to be toxic.
    2) I don't really get what's your point here.
    3) As i said on the very beginning I'm only considering CLASS skills, no matter of weapons or other buffs, read carefully before answer.
    You said right, you used to play Stamsorc, now things are different.
    Snares and CCs
    Warden: Permafrost (ultimate), Glacial Presence (passive).
    Sorcerer: No

    Warden's snares are so bad, warden is forced to use weapons for snare. Ult is high cost, passive is useless. You look at half side of your cup and full side of others. With this mentality, it is normal to see everthing more grim than it seems. And why you dont meantion streak? If a skill is used on stam chracter, thet is the only requirement for mentioning it. Mag cost or anything else dont matter.

    But stam sorc is a generic skill class that have surge, streak and hurricane. ZoS burry a class to ground with nerfs but dont give any buffs to compansate.

    Rip your sorc

    Sorry i will edit my title and my post to be more clear, I'm just comparing classes and what they have just to understand how some classes shine and others not. You may not like your class CCs, but you got some. And tbh i've seen Permafrost CC working very well.
    I already said why i don't consider Streak or Rune prison, they need too much magicka and you can run it only if carried by a group.
    You hardly see a solo Stamsorc using those skills because they will need magicka to sustain, there are some exception like build which don't use Dark Deal but in general in that slot you better put Bound Armament or something else.
    Crixus8000 wrote: »
    Stamsorc is seen as good because of the 10% speed (even though it's a small buff, doesn't make us super fast) the rng execute that everyone hates and dark deal.

    Dark deal is getting nerfed. Everyone can use swift and the execute is rng. Stamsorc is lacking, simple as that. Just because most stamsorcs get carried by bleeds and spin2win doesn't make the class amazing.

    I think stamsorc would be much better off if they just removed implosion and nerfed hurricane speed. Then the class could maybe get some buffs, more usable passives and maybe get an identity.

    100% agree i'd rather make Implosion work like Burning light, remove Dark Deal from the game it's useless anyway and bargain Minor expedition with any other minor buff.

    Thank you all for the answer i'll put some of those on the main post to clarify the subject.
    Edited by gpiolettipreeb18_ESO on September 22, 2018 1:43PM
  • PickleRick
    PickleRick
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    @cpuScientist last I checked Stam Sorc has Major+Minor expedition with basically 100% uptime. This means if the run 2x swift they’re as fast as any other stam class can be since they’ll have +60% movement speed and major expedition+3x swift is only +60%.

    This means that not only are you able to be more mobile than every other stam spec you also get to do it with on 2x swift and get a third “free” jewelry trait.

    I wasn’t even counting streak as mobility because it’s best used for control not mobility.

    Claiming I don’t play the class is ridiculous, it’s 2018 man, everyone has played everything in PvP.
    Edited by PickleRick on September 23, 2018 1:49AM
    Come on, flip the pickle, Morty, you're not gonna regret it. The payoff is huge. I turned myself into a pickle, Morty! Boom! Big reveal! I'm a pickle! What do you think about that? I turned myself into a pickle! W-w-what are you just staring at me for, bro, I turned myself into a pickle, Morty.
  • cpuScientist
    cpuScientist
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    PickleRick wrote: »
    @cpuScientist last I checked Stam Sorc has Major+Minor expedition with basically 100% uptime. This means if the run 2x swift they’re as fast as any other stam class can be since they’ll have +60% movement speed and major expedition+3x swift is only +60%.

    This means that not only are you able to be more mobile than every other stam spec you also get to do it with on 2x swift and get a third “free” jewelry trait.

    I wasn’t even counting streak as mobility because it’s best used for control not mobility.

    Claiming I don’t play the class is ridiculous, it’s 2018 man, everyone has played everything in PvP.

    I never said you don't play the class? Also from what I've seen and heard. The speed calculation is

    Sprint 40%
    Major Expedition 30%
    Minor expedition 10%
    Medium armor 4% per piece if Sprint
    CP 2% for Sprint
    Swifty 10% per
    Orc 10% Sprint

    So to get to cap while Sprinting is easy. Just wear 5 medium have expedition (which is there from many sources very prevelent is pots) so that is 40+20+30 and either one Swifty be an ORC or have minor expedition.

    All Stam can hit cap.

    Those classes give up a little dps to be fast, stamSorc gives up everything they have no real good offense kit nothing just cause they have minor expedition. Like WTF. It's a very weak set up. Just popular because people loathe stamDen and stamBlade the 2 Apex. StamSorcs StamDK stamPlar are all a distant 3rd. Who exactly is 3rd 4th 5th doesn't matter as it's basit preference. StanPlar will jump to a strong 3rd next patch with sustain changes. And it's stamDK and stamSorc left at the bottom. Cool stamPlar deserves this.

    But stamSorc has no native burst ability. Except overload I guess. But all the classes have this they have something from their Magicka counterparts. StamSorc and VERY BIGLY magSorc need a redo. But to impky stamSorc is truly there neck and neck with stamDen and stamBlade is nah. That amazing stamSorc player would be that much better on those classes if he learned them.
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
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    I'm always amazed how people think a minor buff and a rng execute pushes a class in the top 3 (out of 5 - but they say it as if it's some achievement to be mediocre) when everything else comes from open skill lines.

    "But what about the rest of the class?" You might say. Then I can only answer you "there is no rest after the patch". Dark deal lost all appeal with the upcoming nerf & meditate is already great. And ol is mag and lost it's 3rd bar.

    So, how does anyone justifies putting stamsorcs above any other stam spec after murkmire?

    E: before anyone brings up streak: you can run faster than I can streak. I can streak a max of 3 times with 15k mag and gap closers are a thing.
    Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on September 23, 2018 2:41PM
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