Shields are OP in PvE, regardless of how certain people may try to defend it.

Reistr_the_Unbroken · September 2018

OP’s post is just dumb at its finest, and the OP is too stubborn and closed-minded.

D0PAMINE · September 2018

They really need to add some sustain to make all classes usable as a start, then work out what is overtuned or needs buffing. A lot of players are showing how annoyed they are with current state reguardless of the class and resource they use, in addition to:

The resource drain bug

The sprint in combat bug

The Heavy Attack animation freeze bug (which is really hitting me frequently)

Im getting these with what is showing as normal latency. I now have to disconnect all devices from WiFi, and ESO is the only program that I have internet issues with.

Edit: sorry for hijacking your thread OP

susmitds · September 2018

jaws343 wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

iiYuki wrote: »

How can something like shields be classed as "OP" in PvE? Surely everyone of your points are benefits to you and others in your group since the shielded player might not die, therefore outputs more DPS, takes pressure off the healer, can help with other mechanics if needed etc.
People also seem to be talking about these magical sets that replace shields, and I'll make two counter points to this; 1 is it light armour with magicka or spell damage/spell crit and 2 is it for a DPS, because if the answer is no to either what use are they, a DPS gimping themselves just to try staying alive through fights.
I also could understand if people were actively picking sorcerers over all other classes due to their shields but sorcerers are still second rate when it comes to Magicka DPS and are now falling further down the list since they will have NO self preservation ability.
I think the absolute kicker is they nerfed self healing too.

Same reason people complain when some other class other than theirs is getting more DPS. After all, that DPS is helping you too. Also what you said is exactly proves my point. The very fact, people could steamroll through hard content, without investing in any kind of defense is what brought us to this point. This is exactly the attitude that started this mess. Changes to shields will force players to change their builds to allow more surivival. Yes, you are gimping your DPS, but it is not exactly cutting your DPS in half. At best, any set gives you around 3-5k more DPS, so that's a hard choice that you will now have to make. It will make many of the defensive strats more viable in PvE.

But you are completely wrong here...

Giving up a skill slot and investing 72 CP into Bastion is investing into defense. Especially on a class like Mag sorc that needs all the bar space it can get. Shields in live take full damage. So on punishing mechanics, they do not last long and end up being a resource drain if you are spamming them.

Stamina players have that 72 extra CP to invest in nodes for damage that kills them. Plus they can block longer, have stam regen, can roll dodge more effectively due to a larger stam pool and passives, have more resistance, deal way more damage, can effectively self heal without losing damage....

Remaining stamina during lengthy boss fights of almost all stam builds, especially non-redguard ones dance between 0-25% pretty much the whole time, so blocking and dodging is not as effective on stamina builds as you seem to think. Plus nothing is really stopping magicka builds to from blocking and dodging. Also, you cant DPS while blocking on stamina builds due to zero stamina regen.
72 points can also placed elsewhere on Magicka builds. Red CPs are all defensive and are accessible to every build. So you are not really building to defense. Stamina DDs also spend one/two skills for survival. Apart from tanks, no one really builds for defense in the current meta in PvE. You need to look to PvP, to realize what is meant by building for defense, where every other person is running in heavy armor with all Impen.

Stamina build can also heavy attack to regain stamina. And they have stam regen. Ignore the blocking part. A stamina build will always be able to dodge and physically defend more than a mag build. And with the bolded statement, you really are just playing dumb here. Putting 72 points into Bastion is building defensively.

Honestly, with everything you have said in here, I have a hard time believing you have ever played a magicka build in serious content. Because clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Red CPs can be only used in one way and that is for defensive purposes. It is your choice, how you do it. By your definition of investing in defense, every max CP glass-cannon has invested heavily into defense, just by spending 260 red CP.
I have two magicka Dromathra Destroyers (sorc and NB), before max CP hit 600, just saying

.

susmitds · September 2018

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

OP’s post is just dumb at its finest, and the OP is too stubborn and closed-minded.

Go right ahead, ask vet trial lead to clear any DLC vet Trial with all stamina, except the healer. Let's see whose point is proven.

Salvas_Aren · September 2018

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

OP’s post is just dumb at its finest, and the OP is too stubborn and closed-minded.

regardless of how certain people may try to defend it.

I wonder how you concluded that.

Izaki · September 2018

kathandira wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

This all collapses when you consider that a stam player can use a magicka shield as well. Just level up Light Armor, pick up Annulment, and use it when it is needed.

Only costs 4k magicka, and will protect you from 6k damage.

Umm but you have to wear light armor to use it. Stamina builds don't use light armor.

AuraNebula · September 2018

[Fhdhdh

susmitds wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

With this logic you're saying stamnia players are basically dead the whole time and not able to do any damage. Stamina have a higher single target dps than magicka classes period. In the group I run vet dlc hms with the other dps is a stamdk. We have completed multiple no deaths on just about every dungeon. With our healer he usually does not even need vigor slotted.

If I took off my shield and tried to mitigate damage by just blocking and roll dodging, I would be dead constantly. Shields take damage too. I cannot just stand in the red and expect myself to survive. It does not work that way.

If he doesn't need Vigor to survive, you do not need Shields either with the same healer. The fact that Stamina does higher Single-Target DPS is balanced by the fact Magicka does significantly more AoE DPS, while having close enough ST DPS. Blocking and dodging is equally effective on both stamina and magicka. Stamina builds have a higher stamina pool but that pool is already depleted by DPS skills alone. So, the playing field is not that different.

No if he doesn't need vigor to survive then I don't need to use power surge. My self heal. He still needs to block and roll dodge. However he has a much bigger stamina pool to pull from. I can maybe roll dodge and block once or twice before I am out of stam.

Power Surge is a buff, with self healing thrown in. Like say, Siphoning Attacks on NBs or a similar equivalent on Warden. It is not a proper HoT as per say, you need to stay offensive to make use of it.
He has a higher stam-pool but in any real boss fight, DPS rotation which is also coming from stamina will keep the remaining stamina drained to the point that it is not higher than that of any magicka build. From that matter, any non-redguard stam DPS hardly has enough stamina to maintain a proper rotation after a while, let alone block or dodge.
But, for the sake of debate, I will break down all three defense mechanics.
Blocking - Cuts off stamina regeration. Protects from only certain Direct Damage attacks. You still take 50% damage. Various attacks ignore block. Does not protect from DoTs. DPSing through block not a option for stamina DPS, thanks to disabled stamina regen. Can not be permanently sustained even with proper sustain.
Dodging - Only protects from Single-Target Direct Damage for the duration of the animation which is 1.2sec. Various ignore dodge. Does not protect from DoTs. DPSing while rolling is not possible but you can DPS between dodges. Cannot be permanently sustained with due to stacking costs and no DPS done as a perma-roller.
Shielding - Protects from all kinds of damage. Nothing in PvE ignores shields. Protects from DoTs. DPSing through shields is a common practice. Can be permanently sustained with a proper build. Can protect you from attacks with greater values than your HP itself.

It is clear as day, which is the superior option.

Have you ever used a shield? It does not protect you endlessly from aoes. You can not withstand every single mechanic with a shield. We also have to roll dodge and block if we want to survive. It is literally laughable that you think shields will just magically make you able to withstand all damage. Even in vAA during the stone boss we have to block and shield or we are dead if we just block alone because we so not have the same resistances.

If you dont move out of them, even if you keep shielding you are dead. If shields were that op then magicka characters would never need to roll dodge or block, that is not the case. We do not have the same medium armor passives that give us.

Dexterity (3 Ranks) – Increases your chance to score a critical strike by 1% for every piece of medium armor equipped.
Wind Walker (2 Ranks) – your stamina regeneration is increased by 2% for every piece of medium armor equipped.
Fortress (2 Ranks) – Decreases the detection radius of enemies while you’re in stealth by 3% and decreases your sneak stamina cost by 4% for each piece of medium armor you have equipped.
Agility (2 Ranks) – Your attack speed is increased by 5% if you wear 5 or more pieces of medium armor.
Battlefield Mobility (2 Ranks) – Your sprint speed is increased by 2% and stamina cost for dodging attacks is decreased by 2% for every piece of medium armor you wear.

We cannot regain the same amount of stam that stam players can. Our stam recovery is very slow.

Medium armor in 7/0/0 has 4k more resistances than Light Armor in 5/1/1. That is just 6% damage mitigation more. Medium and Light armor resistances are not that different
Shields doesn't save you from damage that goes above the Shield value+HP. It can save you from everything else. What I am trying to say it is a fake HP, on top of your real HP and you can shield while blocking. Show me a single defense in the game, that can parallel shields.
Apart from the occassional CC break, your 11k Stamina Pool is virtually totally available for Dodging and Blocking. You can not say the same about Stamina DD who often end up with less than 3k remaining stamina. Also you can block and Shield up. Stamina DDs can't do anything other hold block and pray that the healer does his job well.

You have no idea what you are talking about. 6% damage mitigation is a lot. Which are not available to magicka characters.Our shields get damaged and they run out very quickly when taking high amounts of damage, so we recast at the cost of our magicka and dps to stay alive.. You cannot roll dodge 3 times in a row, you cannot hold block for extended periods of time. You also can not hold block and cast a shield. You drop block, then cast your shield, then block again. Stam however can hold block and spam vigor lmao.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

I actually disagree with a lot of this. Ill push back on a few points.

First, most true one shots will kill you with or without a shield. Also, 95% of them are in the form of a big expanding AOE, which a stam toon can avoid much easier with their mobility

Second, you mention VMA. VMA is admittedly a touch harder on stam the first time around, but honestly, I find it easier once you get the hang of it. You might not last as long with a stam build being poisoned, but you also move about twice as fast if you are built well. My stam players almost never get the poison buff in the first place, and if they do, they are significantly quicker to the healing pool.

Third, Never met a group of stam players that needed more than 2 pads to nuke VS on HM. If you are shield spamming in the lava, you have DPS issues, and stam certainly pumps out more DPS.

Fourth, a shield spam hinders DPS. It is faster to just roll high DPS stamina toons and nuke the crystals as needed.

Fifth, Velidreth's ceiling attack is a simple mechanic. You press one button to get through it. Staminas nuke ability to burn through the phases and their mobility in the backroom makes that fight perfectly doable.

Is ranged magic easier to play? Sure. But acting like stamina has it so bad is just nonsense. There are only two pieces of content that stamina is at a disadvantage in this game. VAS +2 and VCR +3. It has nothing to do with shields. It has to do with the fact that these encounters are in huge rooms and there is a constant need to put out ranged damage, so magic is superior. In every other trial, as many stamina DPS as possible is preferable (usually 5+). Even in the recent trials, people are already starting to stack stam where they can, because the damage is so much better.

Also, my concern is not PVE with this change. Most end game DPS dont even run shields for 90% of content, as they dont need them. They are capable of walking two steps outside of a red circle when the time arises, and they would rather use the bar slot for minor force. Three areas will be negatively impacted by this. First Time VMA's, Pug Groupfinder, and Trial Progression groups. I am sorry, but I dont think any of those categories need nerfed.

My concern is that this change is going to take magic sorc back to the drawing board in PVP. Their main defense is getting a cast time. It is akin to a cast time on Cloak, Dragon blood, Breath of life, Shimmering shield, etc. It is a horrible decision to put delayed skills into a PVP environment where constant lag is already the norm. I will simply play another class, but if you dont see how this is detrimental to one of the five classes, you are either biased or have a poor understanding of combat in this game.

Houshiki · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

With this logic you're saying stamnia players are basically dead the whole time and not able to do any damage. Stamina have a higher single target dps than magicka classes period. In the group I run vet dlc hms with the other dps is a stamdk. We have completed multiple no deaths on just about every dungeon. With our healer he usually does not even need vigor slotted.

If I took off my shield and tried to mitigate damage by just blocking and roll dodging, I would be dead constantly. Shields take damage too. I cannot just stand in the red and expect myself to survive. It does not work that way.

If he doesn't need Vigor to survive, you do not need Shields either with the same healer. The fact that Stamina does higher Single-Target DPS is balanced by the fact Magicka does significantly more AoE DPS, while having close enough ST DPS. Blocking and dodging is equally effective on both stamina and magicka. Stamina builds have a higher stamina pool but that pool is already depleted by DPS skills alone. So, the playing field is not that different.

No if he doesn't need vigor to survive then I don't need to use power surge. My self heal. He still needs to block and roll dodge. However he has a much bigger stamina pool to pull from. I can maybe roll dodge and block once or twice before I am out of stam.

Power Surge is a buff, with self healing thrown in. Like say, Siphoning Attacks on NBs or a similar equivalent on Warden. It is not a proper HoT as per say, you need to stay offensive to make use of it.
He has a higher stam-pool but in any real boss fight, DPS rotation which is also coming from stamina will keep the remaining stamina drained to the point that it is not higher than that of any magicka build. From that matter, any non-redguard stam DPS hardly has enough stamina to maintain a proper rotation after a while, let alone block or dodge.
But, for the sake of debate, I will break down all three defense mechanics.
Blocking - Cuts off stamina regeration. Protects from only certain Direct Damage attacks. You still take 50% damage. Various attacks ignore block. Does not protect from DoTs. DPSing through block not a option for stamina DPS, thanks to disabled stamina regen. Can not be permanently sustained even with proper sustain.
Dodging - Only protects from Single-Target Direct Damage for the duration of the animation which is 1.2sec. Various ignore dodge. Does not protect from DoTs. DPSing while rolling is not possible but you can DPS between dodges. Cannot be permanently sustained with due to stacking costs and no DPS done as a perma-roller.
Shielding - Protects from all kinds of damage. Nothing in PvE ignores shields. Protects from DoTs. DPSing through shields is a common practice. Can be permanently sustained with a proper build. Can protect you from attacks with greater values than your HP itself.

It is clear as day, which is the superior option.

Uhh... what?

Yes, Power Surge is a buff, one that's primarily for self-healing. If I didn't need the self-healing I'd slot something else that's more useful and use spell power pots. It is also very different from NBs' Siphoning Attacks, in that the latter is primarily for sustain purposes.

As for a stam dps' stam-pool being as long as a mag dps' stam-pool for I'm guessing the majority of the fight, that is called poor resource management. Does your stam dps not have any sustain tools? Pots? Stam regen? Is your healing not shooting out shards or orbs? Can your stam dps not simply heavy attack?
For blocking, yes it stops stam regen, but its not like you're blocking 90% of the fight. So you don't need to dps through blocking, nor does blocking need to be permanently sustained, unless you're the tank. Sure you'll lose dps if you block, but that's picking defense and survival over damage.

For dodging, true you can't dodge everything, but you can dodge a many things. Sure there's the animations duration, but again, that's choosing defense and survival over damage. As for DoTs, well dodging CAN protect you from most DoTs in that you don't get hit with it in the first place. And trying to dps in between dodge rolls or trying to be a perma-dodge roll dps in pve... what? As far as I am aware, most bosses don't spam 1-shots back to back that would require a dodge roll to avoid. This is pve, a single occasional dodge roll for the odd 1-shot that targets you is plenty enough.

For shields, true it can protect from most damage in pve, but like the above, casting a shield is still a dps loss. Defense and survival over damage. How? well, it is still an ability which needs to be cast and therefore will still consume the usual GCD. And yes, shields can protect from DoTs if the caster wasn't able to dodge for whatever reason. As for being permanently sustaining shields, well, if you just mean keeping shields up for their full duration then sure, easy enough. If you can shield spamming through damage, well, maybe by draining significant amounts of mag, or using a build that's just about regen.

Lastly, to makes things clear, mechanics/attacks that would be 1-shots to anyone but the tank or even the tank, will be a 1-shot regardless of whether or not you're shielded.

Sigtric · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Your argument falls down the second you start saying that the theoretical mechanic does exactly 20K of damage after mitigation.

Stamina players can and do mitigate more than magicka players (because of greater resistance values from medium over light, having a large enough stamina pool to block more frequently, and for anything that's considered AOE damage being able to get that 25% mitigation - also stamina players can dodge-roll to avoid having to mitigate at all). Magicka players can't mitigate as much, so their tool to survive what a stamina player can survive is a damage shield.

Note that I'm not necessarily saying that shields don't need a nerf in PVE, but your argument as to why is severely faulty. Aside from that, adding a cast time to shields might be the worst possible way to nerf them, as it will just mean that nobody ever uses those abilities, and they will struggle to find other ways of surviving. Nerfing an ability in a way that makes it something that nobody will slot is a very bad idea. There are plenty of other ways that shields could be nerfed that wouldn't completely eliminate their use.

I am talking about an arbitary attack to equate the situation. Also the resistance difference of magicka and stamina DPS is around 4k with magicka DPS in 5/1/1 setup and stamina DPS in 0/7/0 setup. This is around 6% mitigation. Fair-enough, but won't save the stamina DPS, while also ignoring the fact that the magicka DPS has 4% more HP considering Undaunted passives. As for 25% AoE mitigation, it is counter-balanced by the fact that shield-users are usually always ranged magicka builds and being at range itself, is a major increase in survival chances.
I have more solid examples just below in the post. Also I am not showing that cast-time is necessarily a solution. It is just one in the long line of bandage fixes that ZOS seems to love.

So what about the melee ranged mag users? Just chop liver? The cast time to annulment is indirect nerfs to both my mDK and magplar. I can easily switch the magplar to range but my main is screwed.

Vahrokh · September 2018

@Sigtric

1) Many magsorcs have to use Zaan these days just to pretend to be competitive.
Tell me in the picture below how much more range do I have vs the melee.

(Before you complain about DPS: I was on purge duty as the skilbar shows)

In this case, this boss won't 1 shot you if he turns but most do. A shield is not going to save me. Actually, if I am low on magicka I have all of about 1 dodge before I die, while the guy next to me can roll away to the other side of the room.

2) At the next boss I was on "upper room duty". Since you claim you have done all the content (I have done it too, and several trials on hard mode too), you have to know that the time to finish the "minigame" is limited and then there's instant - trial group wipe. I have tried (for testing sake) doing it without a shield.
- I waste time to avoid the lightning on the ground. A stam character dodge rolls over it. I cannot for more than 1 of these "splashes" then I am dead.
- If I get "the ray", I die very fast while I am still positioning behind the add to kill. And then we all wipe.
- And no, a whole 11 people don't have time to wipe because I have to perform "poop" motions and wait for a shield to come up.
- I do "above" with 3 stamina buddies, none of them EVER dies. I do if I forget to shield up while I get the ray.

3) Stam and magblades deal so MUCH more DPS than magsorcs. You want a pure DPS class (sorc) to suck at DPS and ALSO have less defense than a stam DPS or a magblade? How's that fair?

Or perhaps, some other braindead "suggestion" I have read these days, where an already vastly underperforming, pure DPS class should backbar an heal staff and do 25k DPS while everyone else are doing 50-70k?

XxCaLxX · September 2018

My biggest issue with the shield nerf is this: dlc dungeon no death achievements will be near impossible( I know you don’t have to have a shield to do them but not everyone has an elite group to run with and not all healers and tanks are great. Another reason is doing pledges or randoms with group finder. 90% of the time when I’m on stamblade or any other stam toon that does ungodly amounts of damage I still can’t hold Aggro on boss until ppl Rez each other or to do what ever but I can jump on my magsorc and carry 3 level 5’s through vet falkreath or whatever. Now I know that’s not the way it’s suppose to be but who wants to wast a day finding a group to run a pledge? Until they can separate pve and pve abilities then there will always be a big problem. Who cares if something is OP in pve? Aren’t we all on the same team in pve?

greylox · September 2018

randomkeyhits wrote: »

I just don't get the mind set

in PvE you are competing with your group, not against your group.

So surely anything that will strengthen the group is a good thing right?

I main stamblade but if a magsorc wants to shield up, stay alive and keep the damage up I have absolutely zero issues with it.

Agreed, nothing can be OP in a PvE setting (without being silly), I just want to work as a group and get content done. Plenty of times shields have kept me alive enough to res people, or finish off the last bit of health on a boss, who can moan at that.

It seems PvP is the issue. I don't really do it myself so don't exactly know what will work, but instead of making stuff worse give stam toons something shield based based off stam pool, also it'd be so easy to stop stacking by making any similar shield (health pool based, magicka pool based etc) override themselves.

Kikke · September 2018

So, your example is; Let's have the stamina eat the dmg raw, while we have the magica do a form of defence.

And now we conclude that since stamina died while the magica survived, shields must be OP.

Then let me swap this around:

One shot projectile that must be dodged. You send 3 of them in a short interval. Since stamina had enough stam they survive, meanwhile the magica had just enough for 2 dodge rolls and is now on the floor dead.

Is stamina OP because they can dodge roll more? is dodge roll a OP defence as it can negate far higher dmg values than shiels ever could?

Well, No? Defence is defence. You need it to survive! A defensive ability that does not save you is useless, and that's where magica shields are heading with this 1sec cast time.

zaria · September 2018

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

With this logic you're saying stamnia players are basically dead the whole time and not able to do any damage. Stamina have a higher single target dps than magicka classes period. In the group I run vet dlc hms with the other dps is a stamdk. We have completed multiple no deaths on just about every dungeon. With our healer he usually does not even need vigor slotted.

If I took off my shield and tried to mitigate damage by just blocking and roll dodging, I would be dead constantly. Shields take damage too. I cannot just stand in the red and expect myself to survive. It does not work that way.

This stamina build is far more sturdy, they can also block and dodge more. Note that on an fight like direfrost you can not block as an magic build as breaking free take most of your stamina, same in fights who require dodge.
And shields take damage first, if you block you take less damage and healer heals you.
No wait the healer died while casting shield.

El_Borracho · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

This all collapses when you consider that a stam player can use a magicka shield as well. Just level up Light Armor, pick up Annulment, and use it when it is needed.

Only costs 4k magicka, and will protect you from 6k damage.

Umm, what? Why would a stam player go with 5 pieces of light armor? You would not get the stamina recovery if you were a stamplar and get utterly worked if you were a stam melee DD.

Namarkas · September 2018

Pretty much everything has already been said, and OP clearly has their opinion, so I just wanted to add this:

It is funny that you compare stamplar and magsorc. Because in that scenario, the stamplar easily survives if they slot the instant sun shield instead of vigor. With the recent changes to shields/resistances, rune focus, minor protection on said shield activation, (major even if they choose to run a war machine build with the new ulti),.....we have now the following.
A stamplar that survived with 7k hp bc he has a 10k instant shield (6k base + res/protection).
And a dead magsorc who got killed mid-cast

Sincerely
Somebody who plays stamplar and magsorc pve.

VaranisArano · September 2018

In PVE, you aren't completing against your group.

You are, however, competing.

For one, you are competing against other classes for who is the most efficient at clearing content. This is ZOS' fault for balancing PVE like its a game of King of the Hill, but this isnt likely to change unless ZOS changes their balancing philosophy or players stop insisting on meta builds. So ZOS likes to change up which class gets to be king of the hill and thus the most in demand for end game content.

Competition against other classes is easy to see, typically shown in "Trials are dominated by [magicka/stamina]" or "Nobody wants my [insert class here],in end game content!" Or "this class is useless in PVE!" type complaining posts.

Second, you are competing against the content designers. If PVEers are completing ZOS's hardest content too easily, well, the devs are going to look at what is letting players overperform. Now, ZOS generally doesn't just straight nerf DPS. In the past, ZOS has nerfed sustain or certain sets, skills, passives, and armor weights. The Morrowind Sustain Nerfs were because of this. Now, ZOS is nerfing survivability in the form of damage shields and passive dodge chance.

This type of competition is harder to spot on the forums, because it typically happens when players are doing too well by the devs' standards, which usually makes players feel good! These show up as "This content is too easy!" or "This class has amazing DPS!" Or a certain set, skill, or build coming to dominate the end game meta. Usually there aren't complaints, because Molag Kena isn't going to come to the forums and the devs probably won't come right out and say "Players, you are too darned efficient and its easier to nerf you than design harder content that new players haven't a hope and a prayer of touching."

So from that perspective, there's reason to look at damage shields.

1. Were sorc wards and annulment allowing magicka builds to overperform in end game content relative to other classes? (ZOS appears to think so)

2. Were sorc wards and annulment and passive dodge chances allowing PVEers to complete end game content too easily? (ZOS appears to think so.)

BigBadVolk · September 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

In PVE, you aren't completing against your group.

You are, however, competing.

For one, you are competing against other classes for who is the most efficient at clearing content. This is ZOS' fault for balancing PVE like its a game of King of the Hill, but this isnt likely to change unless ZOS changes their balancing philosophy or players stop insisting on meta builds. So ZOS likes to change up which class gets to be king of the hill and thus the most in demand for end game content.

Competition against other classes is easy to see, typically shown in "Trials are dominated by [magicka/stamina]" or "Nobody wants my [insert class here],in end game content!" Or "this class is useless in PVE!" type complaining posts.

Second, you are competing against the content designers. If PVEers are completing ZOS's hardest content too easily, well, the devs are going to look at what is letting players overperform. Now, ZOS generally doesn't just straight nerf DPS. In the past, ZOS has nerfed sustain or certain sets, skills, passives, and armor weights. The Morrowind Sustain Nerfs were because of this. Now, ZOS is nerfing survivability in the form of damage shields and passive dodge chance.

This type of competition is harder to spot on the forums, because it typically happens when players are doing too well by the devs' standards, which usually makes players feel good! These show up as "This content is too easy!" or "This class has amazing DPS!" Or a certain set, skill, or build coming to dominate the end game meta. Usually there aren't complaints, because Molag Kena isn't going to come to the forums and the devs probably won't come right out and say "Players, you are too darned efficient and its easier to nerf you than design harder content that new players haven't a hope and a prayer of touching."

So from that perspective, there's reason to look at damage shields.

1. Were sorc wards and annulment allowing magicka builds to overperform in end game content relative to other classes? (ZOS appears to think so)

2. Were sorc wards and annulment and passive dodge chances allowing PVEers to complete end game content too easily? (ZOS appears to think so.)

tbh the only thing that overperforms is damage, and the best solution to that is raising the cap of the End Game content from 300 CP to 600 or 800 but ZoS will never do that, because unlike WoW ESO is more casual, so ZoS will stick with nerfing survival instead of raising the difficulty

Cronopoly · September 2018

JobooAGS wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

Too bad that Stamplar has no Stamina to um Block while Vigor/Rally are ticking....too bad....

Hmm, so rip dw? Because a stam dps will not give up bow for a hot in pve

I was being highly sarcastic lol

waitwhat · September 2018

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

With this logic you're saying stamnia players are basically dead the whole time and not able to do any damage. Stamina have a higher single target dps than magicka classes period. In the group I run vet dlc hms with the other dps is a stamdk. We have completed multiple no deaths on just about every dungeon. With our healer he usually does not even need vigor slotted.

If I took off my shield and tried to mitigate damage by just blocking and roll dodging, I would be dead constantly. Shields take damage too. I cannot just stand in the red and expect myself to survive. It does not work that way.

@Princessrhaenyra
That may be, but you have a healer with that stam DPS. The whole point of shields is to be able to run three DPS with a shield and no healer. The fact that you even have a healer is nuking your group's total DPS, even if that stamDK pulls higher individual numbers than a mag DPS.

The point of nerfing shields is to make healers relevant in vet DLC content.

Edit: Put another way, if you were three mag DPS on live, you wouldn't need a healer to complete a vet DLC dungeon hardmode. Most groups see it as much easier to bring three DPS rather than a healer, because total damage output makes the fight take less time, reducing the importance of mechanics by limiting the number of times those mechanics come into play.
If all the DPS have shields, no one needs a healer, unless you want to further nerf tanks so that they need one.

usmguy1234 · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Yet this still doesn't address the real issue and that Instagib mechanics in a pve are a lazy way to add difficulty to it.

None of the insta-gib mechanics are unavoidable, are they? Every game, with action-RPG components has a fair share of them. Every single Dark Souls games have them. Most of the harder action-RPGs have them. The hardest ESO fights are nothing compared to the extra bosses in Kingdom Hearts 2FM, where nearly every single attack insta-kills you unless you know how to avoid the specific attack and it is a freaking Disney game.

And if eso ran half as well as any of those games you might have a compelling point... but those type mechanics are still imo lazy.

Kayotic · September 2018

End game is focused on skipping mechanics and burning (dpsing) thru phases. Not a shields fault for that /thread

Ozazz · September 2018

my head is going to explode

DanteYoda · September 2018

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

In PVE more or less all damage are completely dodgeable/blockabe except few instances.
L2P , rather than posting garbage. What a rubbish post.

In a low ping environment i agree, high ping less so.

AuraNebula · September 2018

waitwhat wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

With this logic you're saying stamnia players are basically dead the whole time and not able to do any damage. Stamina have a higher single target dps than magicka classes period. In the group I run vet dlc hms with the other dps is a stamdk. We have completed multiple no deaths on just about every dungeon. With our healer he usually does not even need vigor slotted.

If I took off my shield and tried to mitigate damage by just blocking and roll dodging, I would be dead constantly. Shields take damage too. I cannot just stand in the red and expect myself to survive. It does not work that way.

@Princessrhaenyra
That may be, but you have a healer with that stam DPS. The whole point of shields is to be able to run three DPS with a shield and no healer. The fact that you even have a healer is nuking your group's total DPS, even if that stamDK pulls higher individual numbers than a mag DPS.

The point of nerfing shields is to make healers relevant in vet DLC content.

Edit: Put another way, if you were three mag DPS on live, you wouldn't need a healer to complete a vet DLC dungeon hardmode. Most groups see it as much easier to bring three DPS rather than a healer, because total damage output makes the fight take less time, reducing the importance of mechanics by limiting the number of times those mechanics come into play.
If all the DPS have shields, no one needs a healer, unless you want to further nerf tanks so that they need one.

I'm not talking about regular vet dungeons. I'm talking about vet dlc no death and hm runs. Yeah regular vet dungeons we will usually run 3 dps. Plus it doesn't matter if your stam or magicka you can run any regular vet dungeon without a healer. Shoot in most regular vet dungeons you can swap the tank out for 3 dps and one healer. They're just easy. Even with 3 stam DPS will burn through vet dungeons.

Stam has vigor which has an instant cast. I can't heal myself using only a shield. I also need to run crit surge.
Shields are not the issues in dungeons, it is all the one shot mechanics that are making them not viable. If shields are the problem, then so is blocking, and self healing. Lets nerf all those things becausing healing is too easy.

Try running a vet trial with no healers and see how far you get. Healers are viable, shields are not the issue here.

Jeremy · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

You may not realize this - but your thread pretty much shreds the entire basis for the shield nerf.

In your OP - you suggest shields are OP because they provide a crutch for magicka-based players to mess up on mechanics and still survive, instead of dying like they are meant to.

So how is this change going to make healers more useful in dungeons if it just means players are going to end up dying instead?

If anything - and according to your argument - shields would make healers more useful because players may actually have some health left over to heal after making a mistake.

Jeremy · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

iiYuki wrote: »

How can something like shields be classed as "OP" in PvE? Surely everyone of your points are benefits to you and others in your group since the shielded player might not die, therefore outputs more DPS, takes pressure off the healer, can help with other mechanics if needed etc.
People also seem to be talking about these magical sets that replace shields, and I'll make two counter points to this; 1 is it light armour with magicka or spell damage/spell crit and 2 is it for a DPS, because if the answer is no to either what use are they, a DPS gimping themselves just to try staying alive through fights.
I also could understand if people were actively picking sorcerers over all other classes due to their shields but sorcerers are still second rate when it comes to Magicka DPS and are now falling further down the list since they will have NO self preservation ability.
I think the absolute kicker is they nerfed self healing too.

Same reason people complain when some other class other than theirs is getting more DPS. After all, that DPS is helping you too. Also what you said is exactly proves my point. The very fact, people could steamroll through hard content, without investing in any kind of defense is what brought us to this point. This is exactly the attitude that started this mess. Changes to shields will force players to change their builds to allow more surivival. Yes, you are gimping your DPS, but it is not exactly cutting your DPS in half. At best, any set gives you around 3-5k more DPS, so that's a hard choice that you will now have to make. It will make many of the defensive strats more viable in PvE.

Maybe. But I'm skeptical considering even my tanks are getting one shotted constantly these days. So I'm not sure if defense is even a realistic option at this point considering the damage is so ridiculous. It seems you either have to block or dodge to stay alive these days.

Also: I should point out the reason damage-dealers focus so heavily on damage at the expense of their defenses isn't necessarily just because they want to steamroll through hard content. It's because harder content on this game requires ridiculous amounts of damage. So I would agree with your sentiment if not for that.

TheInfernalRage · September 2018

waitwhat wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

With this logic you're saying stamnia players are basically dead the whole time and not able to do any damage. Stamina have a higher single target dps than magicka classes period. In the group I run vet dlc hms with the other dps is a stamdk. We have completed multiple no deaths on just about every dungeon. With our healer he usually does not even need vigor slotted.

If I took off my shield and tried to mitigate damage by just blocking and roll dodging, I would be dead constantly. Shields take damage too. I cannot just stand in the red and expect myself to survive. It does not work that way.

@Princessrhaenyra
That may be, but you have a healer with that stam DPS. The whole point of shields is to be able to run three DPS with a shield and no healer. The fact that you even have a healer is nuking your group's total DPS, even if that stamDK pulls higher individual numbers than a mag DPS.

The point of nerfing shields is to make healers relevant in vet DLC content.

Edit: Put another way, if you were three mag DPS on live, you wouldn't need a healer to complete a vet DLC dungeon hardmode. Most groups see it as much easier to bring three DPS rather than a healer, because total damage output makes the fight take less time, reducing the importance of mechanics by limiting the number of times those mechanics come into play.
If all the DPS have shields, no one needs a healer, unless you want to further nerf tanks so that they need one.

Wait, whut?

Jeremy wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

You may not realize this - but your thread pretty much shreds the entire basis for the shield nerf.

In your OP - you suggest shields are OP because they provide a crutch for magicka-based players to mess up on mechanics and still survive, instead of dying like they are meant to.

So how is this change going to make healers more useful in dungeons if it just means players are going to end up dying instead?

If anything - and according to your argument - shields would make healers more useful because players may actually have some health left over to heal after making a mistake.

There. See?

Armatesz · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

Content is made to make you utilize what you can to get through it. You try to do what is fairly and justly to achieve this goal of completing the content and by whatever extra means you are aiming for it if you are able to achieve it through these means it will be a boon. Try not to be one of those people that try to glitch a situation to complete it... use actual tactics. Shields can be used for getting yourself ready for an attack that might happen as it adds a sort of temporary cushion of sorts or even those like the resto staff where it gives you an emergency moment.