Shields are OP in PvE, regardless of how certain people may try to defend it.

Jameliel · September 2018

Stop kidding yourself....the nerfs suck and are coming from the minds of people who obviously don't play the game. You wrote out a long convoluted rant about something you have to actively force yourself into agreeing with.

susmitds · September 2018

iiYuki wrote: »

How can something like shields be classed as "OP" in PvE? Surely everyone of your points are benefits to you and others in your group since the shielded player might not die, therefore outputs more DPS, takes pressure off the healer, can help with other mechanics if needed etc.
People also seem to be talking about these magical sets that replace shields, and I'll make two counter points to this; 1 is it light armour with magicka or spell damage/spell crit and 2 is it for a DPS, because if the answer is no to either what use are they, a DPS gimping themselves just to try staying alive through fights.
I also could understand if people were actively picking sorcerers over all other classes due to their shields but sorcerers are still second rate when it comes to Magicka DPS and are now falling further down the list since they will have NO self preservation ability.
I think the absolute kicker is they nerfed self healing too.

Same reason people complain when some other class other than theirs is getting more DPS. After all, that DPS is helping you too. Also what you said is exactly proves my point. The very fact, people could steamroll through hard content, without investing in any kind of defense is what brought us to this point. This is exactly the attitude that started this mess. Changes to shields will force players to change their builds to allow more surivival. Yes, you are gimping your DPS, but it is not exactly cutting your DPS in half. At best, any set gives you around 3-5k more DPS, so that's a hard choice that you will now have to make. It will make many of the defensive strats more viable in PvE.

Juju_beans · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

I was showing some of the underlying issues of balancing in the game. I just picked some random examples of possible scenarios.
Also, fun fact, in my last vCoS run with PUGs, a magicka sorcerer with 14k HP kept doing exactly this to avoid learning the real mechanics, his logic being he finds mechanics boring. Same DPS wouldn't value other mechanics either forcing the tank to pick the light. I don't blame him though, I blame ZOS for putting in a crutch, allowing him to come this far without bothering to learn the game the right way.

There are players that are all about focus and dps down the boss; mechanics just get in the way.
And it's not just limited to ESO either..I've seen that in other games.

UrQuan · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Your argument falls down the second you start saying that the theoretical mechanic does exactly 20K of damage after mitigation.

Stamina players can and do mitigate more than magicka players (because of greater resistance values from medium over light, having a large enough stamina pool to block more frequently, and for anything that's considered AOE damage being able to get that 25% mitigation - also stamina players can dodge-roll to avoid having to mitigate at all). Magicka players can't mitigate as much, so their tool to survive what a stamina player can survive is a damage shield.

Note that I'm not necessarily saying that shields don't need a nerf in PVE, but your argument as to why is severely faulty. Aside from that, adding a cast time to shields might be the worst possible way to nerf them, as it will just mean that nobody ever uses those abilities, and they will struggle to find other ways of surviving. Nerfing an ability in a way that makes it something that nobody will slot is a very bad idea. There are plenty of other ways that shields could be nerfed that wouldn't completely eliminate their use.

I am talking about an arbitary attack to equate the situation.

You can't do that, though, because it doesn't work. There are too many differences between the survival tools of stamina characters and the survival tools of magicka characters to look at it that way.

susmitds wrote: »

Also the resistance difference of magicka and stamina DPS is around 4k with magicka DPS in 5/1/1 setup and stamina DPS in 0/7/0 setup. This is around 6% mitigation. Fair-enough, but won't save the stamina DPS, while also ignoring the fact that the magicka DPS has 4% more HP considering Undaunted passives.

The extra resistance is effective when combined with blocking and/or dodge-rolling that is impractical for magicka users to rely on.

susmitds wrote: »

As for 25% AoE mitigation, it is counter-balanced by the fact that shield-users are usually always ranged magicka builds and being at range itself, is a major increase in survival chances.

Depending on the specific mechanic that either is or isn't relevant. For many mechanics, yes that's totally relevant. For others the mechanic applies to everyone regardless of whether they're in melee range or not. The former is certainly more common than the latter, though.

susmitds wrote: »

I have more solid examples just below in the post.

True, and I'm not arguing against your basic premise. I'm just pointing out that the argument based on a theoretical mechanic that does the same damage to both a magicka user and a stamina user after mitigation is inherently flawed. In other words: don't base things on that particular argument. Base them on other examples and other arguments.

susmitds wrote: »

Also I am not showing that cast-time is necessarily a solution. It is just one in the long line of bandage fixes that ZOS seems to love.

Oh I know you weren't actually saying that a cast time is the right solution - that part of my post wasn't meant as a counter-argument to anything you were saying (although I wasn't very clear about that). I was just adding in my own thoughts on the solution ZOS came up with.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · September 2018

I certainly agree that there is a noticeable gap in survivability, but I don't think it's as crazy as you're making it out to be.

And the cast time was probably the worst way to address that gap.

If anything, I think stamina survivability should have been buffed instead. That would allow them to perform at the same level as Magicka in trials, instead of this 1s cast nonsense where we'll just end up with everyone struggling.

MartiniDaniels · September 2018

Clever ZOS gave sorcs increased block on bound aegis.. so in such situations they just should block, this ability is insta-cast.

susmitds · September 2018

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

If anything, I think stamina survivability should have been buffed instead. That would allow them to perform at the same level as Magicka in trials, instead of this 1s cast nonsense where we'll just end up with everyone struggling.

Buffing stamina survivability will make them OP in PvP, which in turn will get some of their offensive arsenal nerfed, as that's what people see in Death Recaps. There are already several builds running around in PvP, that takes the full force of more than one player to kill, while also having respectable offensive capabilities.

Reistr_the_Unbroken · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

If anything, I think stamina survivability should have been buffed instead. That would allow them to perform at the same level as Magicka in trials, instead of this 1s cast nonsense where we'll just end up with everyone struggling.

Buffing stamina survivability will make them OP in PvP, which in turn will get some of their offensive arsenal nerfed, as that's what people see in Death Recaps. There are already several builds running around in PvP, that takes the full force of more than one player to kill, while also having respectable offensive capabilities.

So nerf shields in PvE and ruin it for the players that like it and are rightfully upset, yet you’re for buffing shields to make them OP in PvP? What kind of dumb logic is that?

I have to agree with others that this post is ridiculous and nerfing things will not make the game better, so stop suggesting more crap “lets nerf this!” Threads.

susmitds · September 2018

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

If anything, I think stamina survivability should have been buffed instead. That would allow them to perform at the same level as Magicka in trials, instead of this 1s cast nonsense where we'll just end up with everyone struggling.

Buffing stamina survivability will make them OP in PvP, which in turn will get some of their offensive arsenal nerfed, as that's what people see in Death Recaps. There are already several builds running around in PvP, that takes the full force of more than one player to kill, while also having respectable offensive capabilities.

So nerf shields in PvE and ruin it for the players that like it and are rightfully upset, yet you’re for buffing shields to make them OP in PvP? What kind of dumb logic is that?

I have to agree with others that this post is ridiculous and nerfing things will not make the game better, so stop suggesting more crap “lets nerf this!” Threads.

Who said anything about buffing shields in PvP? *facepalm* Sorry, man but L2Read.

Imperial_Voice · September 2018

iCaliban wrote: »

Your entire post is ridiculous and shows such a blatant lack of knowledge that I assume your ignorance must be trolling. Your ideas are so bad that they should be laughed out of the building.

What a useless comment. Its almost as useless as my comment calling it useless. Shame on the both of us.

AuraNebula · September 2018

With this logic you're saying stamnia players are basically dead the whole time and not able to do any damage. Stamina have a higher single target dps than magicka classes period. In the group I run vet dlc hms with the other dps is a stamdk. We have completed multiple no deaths on just about every dungeon. With our healer he usually does not even need vigor slotted.

If I took off my shield and tried to mitigate damage by just blocking and roll dodging, I would be dead constantly. Shields take damage too. I cannot just stand in the red and expect myself to survive. It does not work that way.

Kuramas9tails · September 2018

kathandira wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

This all collapses when you consider that a stam player can use a magicka shield as well. Just level up Light Armor, pick up Annulment, and use it when it is needed.

Only costs 4k magicka, and will protect you from 6k damage.

@kathandira If you are a stam character wearing 5 pieces of light armor for Annulment, you are playing a stam character wrong.

susmitds · September 2018

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

With this logic you're saying stamnia players are basically dead the whole time and not able to do any damage. Stamina have a higher single target dps than magicka classes period. In the group I run vet dlc hms with the other dps is a stamdk. We have completed multiple no deaths on just about every dungeon. With our healer he usually does not even need vigor slotted.

If I took off my shield and tried to mitigate damage by just blocking and roll dodging, I would be dead constantly. Shields take damage too. I cannot just stand in the red and expect myself to survive. It does not work that way.

If he doesn't need Vigor to survive, you do not need Shields either with the same healer. The fact that Stamina does higher Single-Target DPS is balanced by the fact Magicka does significantly more AoE DPS, while having close enough ST DPS. Blocking and dodging is equally effective on both stamina and magicka. Stamina builds have a higher stamina pool but that pool is already depleted by DPS skills alone. So, the playing field is not that different.

AuraNebula · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

With this logic you're saying stamnia players are basically dead the whole time and not able to do any damage. Stamina have a higher single target dps than magicka classes period. In the group I run vet dlc hms with the other dps is a stamdk. We have completed multiple no deaths on just about every dungeon. With our healer he usually does not even need vigor slotted.

If I took off my shield and tried to mitigate damage by just blocking and roll dodging, I would be dead constantly. Shields take damage too. I cannot just stand in the red and expect myself to survive. It does not work that way.

If he doesn't need Vigor to survive, you do not need Shields either with the same healer. The fact that Stamina does higher Single-Target DPS is balanced by the fact Magicka does significantly more AoE DPS, while having close enough ST DPS. Blocking and dodging is equally effective on both stamina and magicka. Stamina builds have a higher stamina pool but that pool is already depleted by DPS skills alone. So, the playing field is not that different.

No if he doesn't need vigor to survive then I don't need to use power surge. My self heal. He still needs to block and roll dodge. However he has a much bigger stamina pool to pull from. I can maybe roll dodge and block once or twice before I am out of stam.

While I'm using my shield I'm using magicka and pulling from my dps pool as well lol.

Yes magicka has more aoes but in main boss fights that doesn't matter as much as there are very few adds to deal with anyways.

Mister_DMC · September 2018

kathandira wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

This all collapses when you consider that a stam player can use a magicka shield as well. Just level up Light Armor, pick up Annulment, and use it when it is needed.

Only costs 4k magicka, and will protect you from 6k damage.

So you want a Stam player to use 5 light armor which will give them zero benefit from the passives? This is a poor suggestion.

susmitds · September 2018

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

With this logic you're saying stamnia players are basically dead the whole time and not able to do any damage. Stamina have a higher single target dps than magicka classes period. In the group I run vet dlc hms with the other dps is a stamdk. We have completed multiple no deaths on just about every dungeon. With our healer he usually does not even need vigor slotted.

If I took off my shield and tried to mitigate damage by just blocking and roll dodging, I would be dead constantly. Shields take damage too. I cannot just stand in the red and expect myself to survive. It does not work that way.

If he doesn't need Vigor to survive, you do not need Shields either with the same healer. The fact that Stamina does higher Single-Target DPS is balanced by the fact Magicka does significantly more AoE DPS, while having close enough ST DPS. Blocking and dodging is equally effective on both stamina and magicka. Stamina builds have a higher stamina pool but that pool is already depleted by DPS skills alone. So, the playing field is not that different.

No if he doesn't need vigor to survive then I don't need to use power surge. My self heal. He still needs to block and roll dodge. However he has a much bigger stamina pool to pull from. I can maybe roll dodge and block once or twice before I am out of stam.

Power Surge is a buff, with self healing thrown in. Like say, Siphoning Attacks on NBs or a similar equivalent on Warden. It is not a proper HoT as per say, you need to stay offensive to make use of it.
He has a higher stam-pool but in any real boss fight, DPS rotation which is also coming from stamina will keep the remaining stamina drained to the point that it is not higher than that of any magicka build. From that matter, any non-redguard stam DPS hardly has enough stamina to maintain a proper rotation after a while, let alone block or dodge.
But, for the sake of debate, I will break down all three defense mechanics.
Blocking - Cuts off stamina regeration. Protects from only certain Direct Damage attacks. You still take 50% damage. Various attacks ignore block. Does not protect from DoTs. DPSing through block not a option for stamina DPS, thanks to disabled stamina regen. Can not be permanently sustained even with proper sustain.
Dodging - Only protects from Single-Target Direct Damage for the duration of the animation which is 1.2sec. Various ignore dodge. Does not protect from DoTs. DPSing while rolling is not possible but you can DPS between dodges. Cannot be permanently sustained with due to stacking costs and no DPS done as a perma-roller.
Shielding - Protects from all kinds of damage. Nothing in PvE ignores shields. Protects from DoTs. DPSing through shields is a common practice. Can be permanently sustained with a proper build. Can protect you from attacks with greater values than your HP itself.

It is clear as day, which is the superior option.

Priyasekarssk · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

In PVE more or less all damage are completely dodgeable/blockabe except few instances. Shields only help in one shot direct attacks , most of the time dodge-ding/blocking is more quick than casting shields.
L2P , rather than posting garbage. What a rubbish post.

jaws343 · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

iiYuki wrote: »

How can something like shields be classed as "OP" in PvE? Surely everyone of your points are benefits to you and others in your group since the shielded player might not die, therefore outputs more DPS, takes pressure off the healer, can help with other mechanics if needed etc.
People also seem to be talking about these magical sets that replace shields, and I'll make two counter points to this; 1 is it light armour with magicka or spell damage/spell crit and 2 is it for a DPS, because if the answer is no to either what use are they, a DPS gimping themselves just to try staying alive through fights.
I also could understand if people were actively picking sorcerers over all other classes due to their shields but sorcerers are still second rate when it comes to Magicka DPS and are now falling further down the list since they will have NO self preservation ability.
I think the absolute kicker is they nerfed self healing too.

Same reason people complain when some other class other than theirs is getting more DPS. After all, that DPS is helping you too. Also what you said is exactly proves my point. The very fact, people could steamroll through hard content, without investing in any kind of defense is what brought us to this point. This is exactly the attitude that started this mess. Changes to shields will force players to change their builds to allow more surivival. Yes, you are gimping your DPS, but it is not exactly cutting your DPS in half. At best, any set gives you around 3-5k more DPS, so that's a hard choice that you will now have to make. It will make many of the defensive strats more viable in PvE.

But you are completely wrong here...

Giving up a skill slot and investing 72 CP into Bastion is investing into defense. Especially on a class like Mag sorc that needs all the bar space it can get. Shields in live take full damage. So on punishing mechanics, they do not last long and end up being a resource drain if you are spamming them.

Stamina players have that 72 extra CP to invest in nodes for damage that kills them. Plus they can block longer, have stam regen, can roll dodge more effectively due to a larger stam pool and passives, have more resistance, deal way more damage, can effectively self heal without losing damage....

Splattercat_83 · September 2018

Mister_DMC wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

This all collapses when you consider that a stam player can use a magicka shield as well. Just level up Light Armor, pick up Annulment, and use it when it is needed.

Only costs 4k magicka, and will protect you from 6k damage.

So you want a Stam player to use 5 light armor which will give them zero benefit from the passives? This is a poor suggestion.

People are suggesting that magic classes use defensive sets that dont help their resource pools or damage either. It's the same thing.

susmitds · September 2018

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

In PVE more or less all damage are completely dodgeable/blockabe except few instances. Heavy armor can block with resistance.
L2P , rather than posting garbage.

@Priyasekarssk asekarssk
Most mechanic-related damage cannot dodged or blocked. Even when blocked, they can deal huge amounts of damage. And unlike Shields, they don't protect you from DoTs.
And if blocking and dodging are so great, mag DPS can do the same. So there,

I have finished every single PvE content on vet, both trials and dungeons, but learning has no end, so I will be sure to L2P. And, given your crying and whining about Nightblades in PvP, I advise to do the same.
Sincerely,
A Nightblade main for PvP

karekiz · September 2018

Or they could make those abilities just do 999999 dmg if ignored. Would be a nice benefit to clearly mark "Do this or die" mechanic.

That too...

The whole VCoShadows thing - Was that HM or no? I am quite sure in Hard mode ignoring the spikes tends to kill most anyone. At least in every group I have been in where someone doesn't know to dodge the drop one. I could be wrong. I always dodged them because ya know. its not that hard.

*Edit:

BTW read PTS forums. People agree shield spamming is an issue. Hell VIGOUR is an issue if you count Healers and role need. The issue is the cast time. Its clunky. Doesn't actually fix anything. Doesn't flow with combat. Most are fine with shields increasing in cost as you "spam" them or having some sort of penalty. A cast time though? Seriously....Seriously.

Kuramas9tails · September 2018

Magic character stamina pools are low as is. Avoiding damage as a magic character is harder than a stamina character if we exclude shields. And, correct me on this please but, don't light armor wearers get hit harder than someone in medium armor?

For an average ESO player, shields are needed for their magic character. ZOS has to think of not only the players who can make content look like a piece of cake but also the players who struggle but want to enjoy the game as well. How many people have successfully completed VMA? It took me over 2 months my first time WITH two shields. Now I can zoom through most of it with only one shield.

Balancing ESO is the equivalent of achieving world peace because every player is different.

The best thing to think of is the average, casual ESO player running around and what content they are doing? Your suggestion, I can see it being something for the high end, end game players but defiantly NOT for the new and casual players. ZOS had to entice and keep new players as well as entertain old and experienced.

susmitds · September 2018

jaws343 wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

iiYuki wrote: »

How can something like shields be classed as "OP" in PvE? Surely everyone of your points are benefits to you and others in your group since the shielded player might not die, therefore outputs more DPS, takes pressure off the healer, can help with other mechanics if needed etc.
People also seem to be talking about these magical sets that replace shields, and I'll make two counter points to this; 1 is it light armour with magicka or spell damage/spell crit and 2 is it for a DPS, because if the answer is no to either what use are they, a DPS gimping themselves just to try staying alive through fights.
I also could understand if people were actively picking sorcerers over all other classes due to their shields but sorcerers are still second rate when it comes to Magicka DPS and are now falling further down the list since they will have NO self preservation ability.
I think the absolute kicker is they nerfed self healing too.

Same reason people complain when some other class other than theirs is getting more DPS. After all, that DPS is helping you too. Also what you said is exactly proves my point. The very fact, people could steamroll through hard content, without investing in any kind of defense is what brought us to this point. This is exactly the attitude that started this mess. Changes to shields will force players to change their builds to allow more surivival. Yes, you are gimping your DPS, but it is not exactly cutting your DPS in half. At best, any set gives you around 3-5k more DPS, so that's a hard choice that you will now have to make. It will make many of the defensive strats more viable in PvE.

But you are completely wrong here...

Giving up a skill slot and investing 72 CP into Bastion is investing into defense. Especially on a class like Mag sorc that needs all the bar space it can get. Shields in live take full damage. So on punishing mechanics, they do not last long and end up being a resource drain if you are spamming them.

Stamina players have that 72 extra CP to invest in nodes for damage that kills them. Plus they can block longer, have stam regen, can roll dodge more effectively due to a larger stam pool and passives, have more resistance, deal way more damage, can effectively self heal without losing damage....

Remaining stamina during lengthy boss fights of almost all stam builds, especially non-redguard ones dance between 0-25% pretty much the whole time, so blocking and dodging is not as effective on stamina builds as you seem to think. Plus nothing is really stopping magicka builds to from blocking and dodging. Also, you cant DPS while blocking on stamina builds due to zero stamina regen.
72 points can also placed elsewhere on Magicka builds. Red CPs are all defensive and are accessible to every build. So you are not really building to defense. Stamina DDs also spend one/two skills for survival. Apart from tanks, no one really builds for defense in the current meta in PvE. You need to look to PvP, to realize what is meant by building for defense, where every other person is running in heavy armor with all Impen.

AuraNebula · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

With this logic you're saying stamnia players are basically dead the whole time and not able to do any damage. Stamina have a higher single target dps than magicka classes period. In the group I run vet dlc hms with the other dps is a stamdk. We have completed multiple no deaths on just about every dungeon. With our healer he usually does not even need vigor slotted.

If I took off my shield and tried to mitigate damage by just blocking and roll dodging, I would be dead constantly. Shields take damage too. I cannot just stand in the red and expect myself to survive. It does not work that way.

If he doesn't need Vigor to survive, you do not need Shields either with the same healer. The fact that Stamina does higher Single-Target DPS is balanced by the fact Magicka does significantly more AoE DPS, while having close enough ST DPS. Blocking and dodging is equally effective on both stamina and magicka. Stamina builds have a higher stamina pool but that pool is already depleted by DPS skills alone. So, the playing field is not that different.

No if he doesn't need vigor to survive then I don't need to use power surge. My self heal. He still needs to block and roll dodge. However he has a much bigger stamina pool to pull from. I can maybe roll dodge and block once or twice before I am out of stam.

Power Surge is a buff, with self healing thrown in. Like say, Siphoning Attacks on NBs or a similar equivalent on Warden. It is not a proper HoT as per say, you need to stay offensive to make use of it.
He has a higher stam-pool but in any real boss fight, DPS rotation which is also coming from stamina will keep the remaining stamina drained to the point that it is not higher than that of any magicka build. From that matter, any non-redguard stam DPS hardly has enough stamina to maintain a proper rotation after a while, let alone block or dodge.
But, for the sake of debate, I will break down all three defense mechanics.
Blocking - Cuts off stamina regeration. Protects from only certain Direct Damage attacks. You still take 50% damage. Various attacks ignore block. Does not protect from DoTs. DPSing through block not a option for stamina DPS, thanks to disabled stamina regen. Can not be permanently sustained even with proper sustain.
Dodging - Only protects from Single-Target Direct Damage for the duration of the animation which is 1.2sec. Various ignore dodge. Does not protect from DoTs. DPSing while rolling is not possible but you can DPS between dodges. Cannot be permanently sustained with due to stacking costs and no DPS done as a perma-roller.
Shielding - Protects from all kinds of damage. Nothing in PvE ignores shields. Protects from DoTs. DPSing through shields is a common practice. Can be permanently sustained with a proper build. Can protect you from attacks with greater values than your HP itself.

It is clear as day, which is the superior option.

Power surge is our most valued heal. No magicka character uses it just for the buff. Thats what spell power pots are for and no magicka character uses crit surge. THIS is our self heal.

Have you ever used a shield? It does not protect you endlessly from aoes. You can not withstand every single mechanic with a shield. We also have to roll dodge and block if we want to survive. It is literally laughable that you think shields will just magically make you able to withstand all damage. Even in vAA during the stone boss we have to block and shield or we are dead if we just block alone because we so not have the same resistances.

If you dont move out of them, even if you keep shielding you are dead. If shields were that op then magicka characters would never need to roll dodge or block, that is not the case. We do not have the same medium armor passives that give us.

Dexterity (3 Ranks) – Increases your chance to score a critical strike by 1% for every piece of medium armor equipped.
Wind Walker (2 Ranks) – your stamina regeneration is increased by 2% for every piece of medium armor equipped.
Fortress (2 Ranks) – Decreases the detection radius of enemies while you’re in stealth by 3% and decreases your sneak stamina cost by 4% for each piece of medium armor you have equipped.
Agility (2 Ranks) – Your attack speed is increased by 5% if you wear 5 or more pieces of medium armor.
Battlefield Mobility (2 Ranks) – Your sprint speed is increased by 2% and stamina cost for dodging attacks is decreased by 2% for every piece of medium armor you wear.

We cannot regain the same amount of stam that stam players can. Our stam recovery is very slow.

randomkeyhits · September 2018

I just don't get the mind set

in PvE you are competing with your group, not against your group.

So surely anything that will strengthen the group is a good thing right?

I main stamblade but if a magsorc wants to shield up, stay alive and keep the damage up I have absolutely zero issues with it.

ihazzit · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

You must take into account playability considerations for the average player base since playability for the average gamer is crucial for the success, or lack thereof, for any game. In this case, shields are not a "crutch", they are purposely implemented in the game to allow for goal achievability balance. However, discussing usability and playability concerning game design theory is beyond the scope of this forum, but it's worth stating that many people a lot smarter than we are put many months to maybe years of effort into those things and out of that they included shields. That means the content actually is designed with shields in mind (in part) so that some measurable amount of success can be achieved even through failed mechanics.

@Kuramas9tails stated it very well OP, especially that your ideas are "...something for the high end, end game players..." I am of the same opinion but I also believe the proposed shield nerfs are not moving in the proper direction for magicka users and telling them simply to "adapt" by "increasing mitigation" through other options besides the purposely designed shields in ESO is not the right answer.

Salvas_Aren · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

iiYuki wrote: »

How can something like shields be classed as "OP" in PvE? Surely everyone of your points are benefits to you and others in your group since the shielded player might not die, therefore outputs more DPS, takes pressure off the healer, can help with other mechanics if needed etc.
People also seem to be talking about these magical sets that replace shields, and I'll make two counter points to this; 1 is it light armour with magicka or spell damage/spell crit and 2 is it for a DPS, because if the answer is no to either what use are they, a DPS gimping themselves just to try staying alive through fights.
I also could understand if people were actively picking sorcerers over all other classes due to their shields but sorcerers are still second rate when it comes to Magicka DPS and are now falling further down the list since they will have NO self preservation ability.
I think the absolute kicker is they nerfed self healing too.

Same reason people complain when some other class other than theirs is getting more DPS. After all, that DPS is helping you too. Also what you said is exactly proves my point. The very fact, people could steamroll through hard content, without investing in any kind of defense is what brought us to this point. This is exactly the attitude that started this mess. Changes to shields will force players to change their builds to allow more surivival. Yes, you are gimping your DPS, but it is not exactly cutting your DPS in half. At best, any set gives you around 3-5k more DPS, so that's a hard choice that you will now have to make. It will make many of the defensive strats more viable in PvE.

But you are completely wrong here...

Giving up a skill slot and investing 72 CP into Bastion is investing into defense. Especially on a class like Mag sorc that needs all the bar space it can get. Shields in live take full damage. So on punishing mechanics, they do not last long and end up being a resource drain if you are spamming them.

Stamina players have that 72 extra CP to invest in nodes for damage that kills them. Plus they can block longer, have stam regen, can roll dodge more effectively due to a larger stam pool and passives, have more resistance, deal way more damage, can effectively self heal without losing damage....

Remaining stamina during lengthy boss fights of almost all stam builds, especially non-redguard ones dance between 0-25% pretty much the whole time, so blocking and dodging is not as effective on stamina builds as you seem to think. Plus nothing is really stopping magicka builds to from blocking and dodging. Also, you cant DPS while blocking on stamina builds due to zero stamina regen.
72 points can also placed elsewhere on Magicka builds. Red CPs are all defensive and are accessible to every build. So you are not really building to defense. Stamina DDs also spend one/two skills for survival. Apart from tanks, no one really builds for defense in the current meta in PvE. You need to look to PvP, to realize what is meant by building for defense, where every other person is running in heavy armor with all Impen.

Thx for this insight, I will throw half of my 64 points or more into stamina on my next magicka build to make your argument valid.

Really? How are healers supposed to dodgeroll while keeping others alive?

susmitds · September 2018

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Princessrhaenyra wrote: »

With this logic you're saying stamnia players are basically dead the whole time and not able to do any damage. Stamina have a higher single target dps than magicka classes period. In the group I run vet dlc hms with the other dps is a stamdk. We have completed multiple no deaths on just about every dungeon. With our healer he usually does not even need vigor slotted.

If I took off my shield and tried to mitigate damage by just blocking and roll dodging, I would be dead constantly. Shields take damage too. I cannot just stand in the red and expect myself to survive. It does not work that way.

If he doesn't need Vigor to survive, you do not need Shields either with the same healer. The fact that Stamina does higher Single-Target DPS is balanced by the fact Magicka does significantly more AoE DPS, while having close enough ST DPS. Blocking and dodging is equally effective on both stamina and magicka. Stamina builds have a higher stamina pool but that pool is already depleted by DPS skills alone. So, the playing field is not that different.

No if he doesn't need vigor to survive then I don't need to use power surge. My self heal. He still needs to block and roll dodge. However he has a much bigger stamina pool to pull from. I can maybe roll dodge and block once or twice before I am out of stam.

Power Surge is a buff, with self healing thrown in. Like say, Siphoning Attacks on NBs or a similar equivalent on Warden. It is not a proper HoT as per say, you need to stay offensive to make use of it.
He has a higher stam-pool but in any real boss fight, DPS rotation which is also coming from stamina will keep the remaining stamina drained to the point that it is not higher than that of any magicka build. From that matter, any non-redguard stam DPS hardly has enough stamina to maintain a proper rotation after a while, let alone block or dodge.
But, for the sake of debate, I will break down all three defense mechanics.
Blocking - Cuts off stamina regeration. Protects from only certain Direct Damage attacks. You still take 50% damage. Various attacks ignore block. Does not protect from DoTs. DPSing through block not a option for stamina DPS, thanks to disabled stamina regen. Can not be permanently sustained even with proper sustain.
Dodging - Only protects from Single-Target Direct Damage for the duration of the animation which is 1.2sec. Various ignore dodge. Does not protect from DoTs. DPSing while rolling is not possible but you can DPS between dodges. Cannot be permanently sustained with due to stacking costs and no DPS done as a perma-roller.
Shielding - Protects from all kinds of damage. Nothing in PvE ignores shields. Protects from DoTs. DPSing through shields is a common practice. Can be permanently sustained with a proper build. Can protect you from attacks with greater values than your HP itself.

It is clear as day, which is the superior option.

Have you ever used a shield? It does not protect you endlessly from aoes. You can not withstand every single mechanic with a shield. We also have to roll dodge and block if we want to survive. It is literally laughable that you think shields will just magically make you able to withstand all damage. Even in vAA during the stone boss we have to block and shield or we are dead if we just block alone because we so not have the same resistances.

If you dont move out of them, even if you keep shielding you are dead. If shields were that op then magicka characters would never need to roll dodge or block, that is not the case. We do not have the same medium armor passives that give us.

Dexterity (3 Ranks) – Increases your chance to score a critical strike by 1% for every piece of medium armor equipped.
Wind Walker (2 Ranks) – your stamina regeneration is increased by 2% for every piece of medium armor equipped.
Fortress (2 Ranks) – Decreases the detection radius of enemies while you’re in stealth by 3% and decreases your sneak stamina cost by 4% for each piece of medium armor you have equipped.
Agility (2 Ranks) – Your attack speed is increased by 5% if you wear 5 or more pieces of medium armor.
Battlefield Mobility (2 Ranks) – Your sprint speed is increased by 2% and stamina cost for dodging attacks is decreased by 2% for every piece of medium armor you wear.

We cannot regain the same amount of stam that stam players can. Our stam recovery is very slow.

Medium armor in 7/0/0 has 4k more resistances than Light Armor in 5/1/1. That is just 6% damage mitigation more. Medium and Light armor resistances are not that different
Shields doesn't save you from damage that goes above the Shield value+HP. It can save you from everything else. What I am trying to say it is a fake HP, on top of your real HP and you can shield while blocking. Show me a single defense in the game, that can parallel shields.
Apart from the occassional CC break, your 11k Stamina Pool is virtually totally available for Dodging and Blocking. You can not say the same about Stamina DD who often end up with less than 3k remaining stamina. Also you can block and Shield up. Stamina DDs can't do anything other hold block and pray that the healer does his job well.

jaws343 · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

iiYuki wrote: »

How can something like shields be classed as "OP" in PvE? Surely everyone of your points are benefits to you and others in your group since the shielded player might not die, therefore outputs more DPS, takes pressure off the healer, can help with other mechanics if needed etc.
People also seem to be talking about these magical sets that replace shields, and I'll make two counter points to this; 1 is it light armour with magicka or spell damage/spell crit and 2 is it for a DPS, because if the answer is no to either what use are they, a DPS gimping themselves just to try staying alive through fights.
I also could understand if people were actively picking sorcerers over all other classes due to their shields but sorcerers are still second rate when it comes to Magicka DPS and are now falling further down the list since they will have NO self preservation ability.
I think the absolute kicker is they nerfed self healing too.

Same reason people complain when some other class other than theirs is getting more DPS. After all, that DPS is helping you too. Also what you said is exactly proves my point. The very fact, people could steamroll through hard content, without investing in any kind of defense is what brought us to this point. This is exactly the attitude that started this mess. Changes to shields will force players to change their builds to allow more surivival. Yes, you are gimping your DPS, but it is not exactly cutting your DPS in half. At best, any set gives you around 3-5k more DPS, so that's a hard choice that you will now have to make. It will make many of the defensive strats more viable in PvE.

But you are completely wrong here...

Giving up a skill slot and investing 72 CP into Bastion is investing into defense. Especially on a class like Mag sorc that needs all the bar space it can get. Shields in live take full damage. So on punishing mechanics, they do not last long and end up being a resource drain if you are spamming them.

Stamina players have that 72 extra CP to invest in nodes for damage that kills them. Plus they can block longer, have stam regen, can roll dodge more effectively due to a larger stam pool and passives, have more resistance, deal way more damage, can effectively self heal without losing damage....

Remaining stamina during lengthy boss fights of almost all stam builds, especially non-redguard ones dance between 0-25% pretty much the whole time, so blocking and dodging is not as effective on stamina builds as you seem to think. Plus nothing is really stopping magicka builds to from blocking and dodging. Also, you cant DPS while blocking on stamina builds due to zero stamina regen.
72 points can also placed elsewhere on Magicka builds. Red CPs are all defensive and are accessible to every build. So you are not really building to defense. Stamina DDs also spend one/two skills for survival. Apart from tanks, no one really builds for defense in the current meta in PvE. You need to look to PvP, to realize what is meant by building for defense, where every other person is running in heavy armor with all Impen.

Stamina build can also heavy attack to regain stamina. And they have stam regen. Ignore the blocking part. A stamina build will always be able to dodge and physically defend more than a mag build. And with the bolded statement, you really are just playing dumb here. Putting 72 points into Bastion is building defensively.

Honestly, with everything you have said in here, I have a hard time believing you have ever played a magicka build in serious content. Because clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about.

susmitds · September 2018

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

iiYuki wrote: »

How can something like shields be classed as "OP" in PvE? Surely everyone of your points are benefits to you and others in your group since the shielded player might not die, therefore outputs more DPS, takes pressure off the healer, can help with other mechanics if needed etc.
People also seem to be talking about these magical sets that replace shields, and I'll make two counter points to this; 1 is it light armour with magicka or spell damage/spell crit and 2 is it for a DPS, because if the answer is no to either what use are they, a DPS gimping themselves just to try staying alive through fights.
I also could understand if people were actively picking sorcerers over all other classes due to their shields but sorcerers are still second rate when it comes to Magicka DPS and are now falling further down the list since they will have NO self preservation ability.
I think the absolute kicker is they nerfed self healing too.

Same reason people complain when some other class other than theirs is getting more DPS. After all, that DPS is helping you too. Also what you said is exactly proves my point. The very fact, people could steamroll through hard content, without investing in any kind of defense is what brought us to this point. This is exactly the attitude that started this mess. Changes to shields will force players to change their builds to allow more surivival. Yes, you are gimping your DPS, but it is not exactly cutting your DPS in half. At best, any set gives you around 3-5k more DPS, so that's a hard choice that you will now have to make. It will make many of the defensive strats more viable in PvE.

But you are completely wrong here...

Giving up a skill slot and investing 72 CP into Bastion is investing into defense. Especially on a class like Mag sorc that needs all the bar space it can get. Shields in live take full damage. So on punishing mechanics, they do not last long and end up being a resource drain if you are spamming them.

Stamina players have that 72 extra CP to invest in nodes for damage that kills them. Plus they can block longer, have stam regen, can roll dodge more effectively due to a larger stam pool and passives, have more resistance, deal way more damage, can effectively self heal without losing damage....

Remaining stamina during lengthy boss fights of almost all stam builds, especially non-redguard ones dance between 0-25% pretty much the whole time, so blocking and dodging is not as effective on stamina builds as you seem to think. Plus nothing is really stopping magicka builds to from blocking and dodging. Also, you cant DPS while blocking on stamina builds due to zero stamina regen.
72 points can also placed elsewhere on Magicka builds. Red CPs are all defensive and are accessible to every build. So you are not really building to defense. Stamina DDs also spend one/two skills for survival. Apart from tanks, no one really builds for defense in the current meta in PvE. You need to look to PvP, to realize what is meant by building for defense, where every other person is running in heavy armor with all Impen.

Thx for this insight, I will throw half of my 64 points or more into stamina on my next magicka build to make your argument valid.

Really? How are healers supposed to dodgeroll while keeping others alive?

I was talking about DPS roles, but you drag healers in the mix, Block-casting Heals is far a better option than dodging, unless required by mechanics.