Shields are OP in PvE, regardless of how certain people may try to defend it.

susmitds · September 2018

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

usmguy1234 · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

Yet this still doesn't address the real issue and that is Instagib mechanics in a pve are a lazy way to add difficulty to it.

Mister_DMC · September 2018

100% agree.

SickDuck · September 2018

I agree all of your points. Unfortunately the changes on PTS won’t really solve any of these concerns. On the other hand it will end up shields being horrible and painfully slow in a fast paced combat.

kathandira · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

This all collapses when you consider that a stam player can use a magicka shield as well. Just level up Light Armor, pick up Annulment, and use it when it is needed.

Only costs 4k magicka, and will protect you from 6k damage.

killimandrosb16_ESO · September 2018

I have done all of those on both stamina and magica builds. Lately on my stamplar, and I can not relate to you. On my stamplar I have the mirror of shields skillwise, PLUS I HAVE MORE THAN 17k HEALTH -.- . I dont say L2P, because I can see your issues as well, but at the same time I find both stamina and magica classes equally easy/hard (I am a casual PvE'er), actually arenas I find easier on stam classes. Am I doing something wrong?

susmitds · September 2018

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Yet this still doesn't address the real issue and that Instagib mechanics in a pve are a lazy way to add difficulty to it.

None of the insta-gib mechanics are unavoidable, are they? Every game, with action-RPG components has a fair share of them. Every single Dark Souls games have them. Most of the harder action-RPGs have them. The hardest ESO fights are nothing compared to the extra bosses in Kingdom Hearts 2FM, where nearly every single attack insta-kills you unless you know how to avoid the specific attack and it is a freaking Disney game.

susmitds · September 2018

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

I have done all of those on both stamina and magica builds. Lately on my stamplar, and I can not relate to you. On my stamplar I have the mirror of shields skillwise, PLUS I HAVE MORE THAN 17k HEALTH -.- . I dont say L2P, because I can see your issues as well, but at the same time I find both stamina and magica classes equally easy/hard (I am a casual PvE'er), actually arenas I find easier on stam classes. Am I doing something wrong?

I am saying 17k HP as a baseline. I personally won't attempt anything lesser than 20k on melee in any vet. trials.

susmitds · September 2018

SickDuck wrote: »

I agree all of your points. Unfortunately the changes on PTS won’t really solve any of these concerns. On the other hand it will end up shields being horrible and painfully slow in a fast paced combat.

As I said in the post, cast time won't fix the core issue and basically make combat less fun more than anything else. But, hey, this is ZOS we are speaking about.

Raammzzaa · September 2018

susmitds wrote: »

Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

How dare you?!?! Get out of here with your fancy logic! Haven’t you heard? Our shields are getting a 1 s cast time. We’re all unsubbing and quitting the game. So there!

susmitds · September 2018

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

I have done all of those on both stamina and magica builds. Lately on my stamplar, and I can not relate to you. On my stamplar I have the mirror of shields skillwise, PLUS I HAVE MORE THAN 17k HEALTH -.- . I dont say L2P, because I can see your issues as well, but at the same time I find both stamina and magica classes equally easy/hard (I am a casual PvE'er), actually arenas I find easier on stam classes. Am I doing something wrong?

Also, yes arenas are somewhat more fun and depending on perspective, maybe even easier with stamina due to the added mobility given that I know the fights. But to a first timer, the extra survival capability of ranged magicka builds makes no-brainer. Melee magicka builds will suffer from same issues as stamina though.

susmitds · September 2018

iCaliban wrote: »

Your entire post is ridiculous and shows such a blatant lack of knowledge that I assume your ignorance must be trolling. Your ideas are so bad that they should be laughed out of the building.

I have time for constructive debates, but not utterly useless comments like this. Please feel free to move on with your vast knowledge.

UrQuan · September 2018

Your argument falls down the second you start saying that the theoretical mechanic does exactly 20K of damage after mitigation.

Stamina players can and do mitigate more than magicka players (because of greater resistance values from medium over light, having a large enough stamina pool to block more frequently, and for anything that's considered AOE damage being able to get that 25% mitigation - also stamina players can dodge-roll to avoid having to mitigate at all). Magicka players can't mitigate as much, so their tool to survive what a stamina player can survive is a damage shield.

Note that I'm not necessarily saying that shields don't need a nerf in PVE, but your argument as to why is severely faulty. Aside from that, adding a cast time to shields might be the worst possible way to nerf them, as it will just mean that nobody ever uses those abilities, and they will struggle to find other ways of surviving. Nerfing an ability in a way that makes it something that nobody will slot is a very bad idea. There are plenty of other ways that shields could be nerfed that wouldn't completely eliminate their use.

Cronopoly · September 2018

Too bad that Stamplar has no Stamina to um Block while Vigor/Rally are ticking....too bad....

Kanar · September 2018

Agreed.

kathandira wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

This all collapses when you consider that a stam player can use a magicka shield as well. Just level up Light Armor, pick up Annulment, and use it when it is needed.

Only costs 4k magicka, and will protect you from 6k damage.

Are you seriously suggesting stam chars wear 5pcs of light armor just to get an inefficient shield? Of that made any sense at all, and people did it, all it would do is prove how OP shields are.

Everstorm · September 2018

kathandira wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

This all collapses when you consider that a stam player can use a magicka shield as well. Just level up Light Armor, pick up Annulment, and use it when it is needed.

Only costs 4k magicka, and will protect you from 6k damage.

You need to wear 5 light armor pieces in order to use annulment.

FrancisCrawford · September 2018

A magicka user can shield every time something looks dangerous, of course at the cost of DPS.
A stamina user can dodge or block every time something looks dangerous, of course at the cost of DPS.

So is your point that magicka users have it easier against unavoidable environmental damage than stamina users do?

DMuehlhausen · September 2018

usmguy1234 wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

Yet this still doesn't address the real issue and that is Instagib mechanics in a pve are a lazy way to add difficulty to it.

I agree with both you and the OP. Trials should maybe have some one shot mechanics. vet dungeons though DLC or original ones nothing should be a one shot mechanic.

VaranisArano · September 2018

kathandira wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

This all collapses when you consider that a stam player can use a magicka shield as well. Just level up Light Armor, pick up Annulment, and use it when it is needed.

Only costs 4k magicka, and will protect you from 6k damage.

Just curious. What stamina player is going to wear 5 pieces of light armor so they can slot annulment?

And would it really be worth the exchange of giving up 5 pieces of medium armor on a stamina build?

Unless I need to recalibarate my sarcasm detector, of course.

AcadianPaladin · September 2018

What I got out of the original post here was that stamplars should have access to a solid, instant shield. I agree.

robpr · September 2018

kathandira wrote: »

This all collapses when you consider that a stam player can use a magicka shield as well. Just level up Light Armor, pick up Annulment, and use it when it is needed.

Only costs 4k magicka, and will protect you from 6k damage.

Annulment need 5 pieces of light armor equipped.

Phreeki · September 2018

VCoA is a bad example. I can heal the last boss, standing in the lava, with 1 ability and its not even a class ability. Just spam healing spring and stack up, its that easy.

JobooAGS · September 2018

Cronopoly wrote: »

Too bad that Stamplar has no Stamina to um Block while Vigor/Rally are ticking....too bad....

Hmm, so rip dw? Because a stam dps will not give up bow for a hot in pve

susmitds · September 2018

UrQuan wrote: »

Your argument falls down the second you start saying that the theoretical mechanic does exactly 20K of damage after mitigation.

Stamina players can and do mitigate more than magicka players (because of greater resistance values from medium over light, having a large enough stamina pool to block more frequently, and for anything that's considered AOE damage being able to get that 25% mitigation - also stamina players can dodge-roll to avoid having to mitigate at all). Magicka players can't mitigate as much, so their tool to survive what a stamina player can survive is a damage shield.

Note that I'm not necessarily saying that shields don't need a nerf in PVE, but your argument as to why is severely faulty. Aside from that, adding a cast time to shields might be the worst possible way to nerf them, as it will just mean that nobody ever uses those abilities, and they will struggle to find other ways of surviving. Nerfing an ability in a way that makes it something that nobody will slot is a very bad idea. There are plenty of other ways that shields could be nerfed that wouldn't completely eliminate their use.

I am talking about an arbitary attack to equate the situation. Also the resistance difference of magicka and stamina DPS is around 4k with magicka DPS in 5/1/1 setup and stamina DPS in 0/7/0 setup. This is around 6% mitigation. Fair-enough, but won't save the stamina DPS, while also ignoring the fact that the magicka DPS has 4% more HP considering Undaunted passives. As for 25% AoE mitigation, it is counter-balanced by the fact that shield-users are usually always ranged magicka builds and being at range itself, is a major increase in survival chances.
I have more solid examples just below in the post. Also I am not showing that cast-time is necessarily a solution. It is just one in the long line of bandage fixes that ZOS seems to love.

Kadoin · September 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

I can understand the issues with adding a cast-time to shields affect the smoothness and general flow of the combat in a grossly negative way. But, at the same time, the very fact that people claim shields are not OP, especially certain PvErs, is ridiculous. Rather than going at it with useless biased perspective issues, I am going to state examples and logic.

Lets say we have 2 DPS - 1 Magicka Sorcerer and 1 Stamina Templar.
Consider that they both have 17k HP and similar DPS. In a boss fight, say, a certain attack does exactly 20k damage after mitigation, if the mechanic is failed. The Stamina Templar will die regardless of what he does, cause Vigor won't save him from an attack greater than his own HP. On the other hand, the Magicka Sorcerer will shield up pre-emptively and gain 15k virtual HP on top of 17k HP and thereby survive with 14k HP remaining.
Every single end-game PvE is filled with such mechanics, where pre-emptively shielding will save you from what was designed to kill you, because you failed the mechanic. I can easily state several of such occasions.
In the Argonian Stage of vMA, you will die from the DoT in 5 secs on a stamina build, even with Vigor rolling, unless you get it cleansed. Magicka builds on the other hand, depending on number of shields, can take over twice that time to get the DoT cleansed.
In vCoA, Valkyn Skoria fight, you can fight on fire with shields even after the platforms are long gone. Good luck, with that on a stamina build.
In vFH, Domihaus fight, you can ignore the Crystal phase with shields on a magicka build and go on DPSing, while stamina builds will die on failing the "walking back slowly" mechanic.
In vCoS, Velidreth fight, it is possible to survive her fall attack on a magicka build with shield-stacking, but non-shielders die on failing to roll.
Every single vet DLC Dungeon and trials are filled with mechanics like this. You can survive tons of things, that was supposed to kill you, with the fake HP shields give you. This allows incompetent players to cheese mechanics and face-tank things that would kill them without shields.
It is common knowledge that first-time clears of vMA are far easier on magicka sorcs and magicka NBs with shields.

Before anyone says that the content is designed with shields in mind, no, the content is designed to kill players that fail to clear the mechanics of the specific fights. Shields are a crutch that people got so used to over time, they are unable to face the mechanics without shields. Good players that can clear the required mechanics won't have an issue without shields. The bad ones will die as intended. I know, there are exceptions in certain vet. trials due to ridiculous amounts of incoming damage but increasing mitigation is always an option with sets, skills, ultimates, synergies, etc. Namely, adapt.

This all collapses when you consider that a stam player can use a magicka shield as well. Just level up Light Armor, pick up Annulment, and use it when it is needed.

Only costs 4k magicka, and will protect you from 6k damage.

Just curious. What stamina player is going to wear 5 pieces of light armor so they can slot annulment?

And would it really be worth the exchange of giving up 5 pieces of medium armor on a stamina build?

Unless I need to recalibarate my sarcasm detector, of course.

None; Only a hyrbid can do that without suffering too much...

WrathOfInnos · September 2018

If the poison spores in vMA were meant to kill they would simply be a one shot. The cleanse pools imply that it is intended you can survive the mechanic. So the real issue here is not that Magicka builds can spam shields (giving up all damage and spending a lot of Magicka) and make it to the pool to survive. The real issue is that Stamina builds have insufficient defensive tools to do the same. I can assure you that no Magicka builds can simply shrug off standing in these, and ignore cleansing because they have shields.

Some of your other examples are a little out there. Who slots multiple shields and stacks them to survive Velidreth’s “don’t move a muscle” attack? It’s highly telegraphed and easy to dodge roll for both Stamina and Magicka players.

For Valkyn Skoria, staying alive after the platforms are gone is entirely about staying on land, and keeping moving to avoid the constant AoEs that chase you. Sure this is easier on a ranged Magicka build because you don’t need to stand next to the boss to damage him, but it’s not really related to shields. Also stamina builds have the advantage of being able to dodge his knockdown ability and break free from his fossilize more frequently.

Troneon · September 2018

You mean using 60k shields is OP?

Dammit. ....

susmitds · September 2018

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

A magicka user can shield every time something looks dangerous, of course at the cost of DPS.
A stamina user can dodge or block every time something looks dangerous, of course at the cost of DPS.

So is your point that magicka users have it easier against unavoidable environmental damage than stamina users do?

Blocking and dodging are available to both magicka and stamina builds and having more stamina does not effect there overall effectiveness and are used by both stamina and magicka builds like in PvE. Blocking stops stamina generation, while dodging increases in cost with every dodge. Plus, various mechanics ignore both of these defenses. Before anyone suggests, stamina has access to more dodges and blocks, it needs to be considered that stamina is always the same pool that is used to DPS and you can't stack Stamina as high as Magicka. Virtual HP is more effective than any other defense in the game and no defense can match up to it to the same effect.

iiYuki · September 2018

How can something like shields be classed as "OP" in PvE? Surely everyone of your points are benefits to you and others in your group since the shielded player might not die, therefore outputs more DPS, takes pressure off the healer, can help with other mechanics if needed etc.
People also seem to be talking about these magical sets that replace shields, and I'll make two counter points to this; 1 is it light armour with magicka or spell damage/spell crit and 2 is it for a DPS, because if the answer is no to either what use are they, a DPS gimping themselves just to try staying alive through fights.
I also could understand if people were actively picking sorcerers over all other classes due to their shields but sorcerers are still second rate when it comes to Magicka DPS and are now falling further down the list since they will have NO self preservation ability.
I think the absolute kicker is they nerfed self healing too.

susmitds · September 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

If the poison spores in vMA were meant to kill they would simply be a one shot. The cleanse pools imply that it is intended you can survive the mechanic. So the real issue here is not that Magicka builds can spam shields (giving up all damage and spending a lot of Magicka) and make it to the pool to survive. The real issue is that Stamina builds have insufficient defensive tools to do the same. I can assure you that no Magicka builds can simply shrug off standing in these, and ignore cleansing because they have shields.

Some of your other examples are a little out there. Who slots multiple shields and stacks them to survive Velidreth’s “don’t move a muscle” attack? It’s highly telegraphed and easy to dodge roll for both Stamina and Magicka players.

For Valkyn Skoria, staying alive after the platforms are gone is entirely about staying on land, and keeping moving to avoid the constant AoEs that chase you. Sure this is easier on a ranged Magicka build because you don’t need to stand next to the boss to damage him, but it’s not really related to shields. Also stamina builds have the advantage of being able to dodge his knockdown ability and break free from his fossilize more frequently.

I was showing some of the underlying issues of balancing in the game. I just picked some random examples of possible scenarios.
Also, fun fact, in my last vCoS run with PUGs, a magicka sorcerer with 14k HP kept doing exactly this to avoid learning the real mechanics, his logic being he finds mechanics boring. Same DPS wouldn't value other mechanics either forcing the tank to pick the light. I don't blame him though, I blame ZOS for putting in a crutch, allowing him to come this far without bothering to learn the game the right way.

Reistr_the_Unbroken · September 2018

iiYuki wrote: »

How can something like shields be classed as "OP" in PvE? Surely everyone of your points are benefits to you and others in your group since the shielded player might not die, therefore outputs more DPS, takes pressure off the healer, can help with other mechanics if needed etc.
People also seem to be talking about these magical sets that replace shields, and I'll make two counter points to this; 1 is it light armour with magicka or spell damage/spell crit and 2 is it for a DPS, because if the answer is no to either what use are they, a DPS gimping themselves just to try staying alive through fights.
I also could understand if people were actively picking sorcerers over all other classes due to their shields but sorcerers are still second rate when it comes to Magicka DPS and are now falling further down the list since they will have NO self preservation ability.
I think the absolute kicker is they nerfed self healing too.

You get an insightful