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I'll shut up about the shield changes when...
Oreyn_Bearclaw
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ZOS can demonstrate to me that it is reasonably possible to complete their hardest PVE content with the changes on the PTS. Many perhaps saw my first post, which had a modest attempt at humor regarding a serious issue, but it was closed for calling out a dev specifically and not being constructive. It was not nor has it ever been my intention to violate forum rules. For that I apologize.
I have not mentioned anyone by name this time around. The constructiveness of my posts stems from the fact that the combat team at ZOS is proposing radical changes to the combat system, which many players have suggested (myself included) is going to seriously lower the floor for PVE content. It has been a stated objective of ZOS for some time that they are aware that the gap between the ceiling and the floor continues to widen each patch, and that they are making efforts to close it. What many of us have pointed out is that these changes arent going to hurt the best of the best players; it will simply lower the floor. In PVE, the best players dont need shields. In PVP, to be candid, most play stam so its not an issue (almost none play mSorc at this point).
My request is that they demonstrate in some way that these changes wont have the negative impact that a lot of us are predicting. I therefore humbly request that the development team demonstrate this to us by showing video of average players (could be the devs, could be some class reps, it just cant be a group from the likes of Hodor, MC, etc.) clearing some of the harder content with these changes. VMOS HM and VCR HM would be a good place to start. I would very much like to watch that live stream, but I have serious doubts it will happen. Ill leave the hilarious meme out of it this time around.
I have not mentioned anyone by name this time around. The constructiveness of my posts stems from the fact that the combat team at ZOS is proposing radical changes to the combat system, which many players have suggested (myself included) is going to seriously lower the floor for PVE content. It has been a stated objective of ZOS for some time that they are aware that the gap between the ceiling and the floor continues to widen each patch, and that they are making efforts to close it. What many of us have pointed out is that these changes arent going to hurt the best of the best players; it will simply lower the floor. In PVE, the best players dont need shields. In PVP, to be candid, most play stam so its not an issue (almost none play mSorc at this point).
My request is that they demonstrate in some way that these changes wont have the negative impact that a lot of us are predicting. I therefore humbly request that the development team demonstrate this to us by showing video of average players (could be the devs, could be some class reps, it just cant be a group from the likes of Hodor, MC, etc.) clearing some of the harder content with these changes. VMOS HM and VCR HM would be a good place to start. I would very much like to watch that live stream, but I have serious doubts it will happen. Ill leave the hilarious meme out of it this time around.
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Krayl✭✭✭✭✭so we are gonna base what works and doesn't work based on some random smattering of players and then we are going to feed their gameplay to the wolves so we can have 38 more forum posts trash-talking their group setup, gear choice, ability, etc. . . and that is going to help...how?
It's nonsense.5 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭so we are gonna base what works and doesn't work based on some random smattering of players and then we are going to feed their gameplay to the wolves so we can have 38 more forum posts trash-talking their group setup, gear choice, ability, etc. . . and that is going to help...how?
It's nonsense.
As suggested by a recent forum poll, a dev live stream would be a reasonable place to start. It would demonstrate that they have actually thought through the changes and that they work in the game they have created. Many people are suggesting that they do not and will not. I dont believe we will ever see such a thing, but It would certainly be nice.4 -
Numerikuu✭✭✭✭✭
✭Considering they already struggle with their own DLC content, it's safe to assume what the outcome will be lol.
But yes... The distance between floor and ceiling will widen immensely if this goes live. My friend with disabilities already struggles like hell in vMA. Adding a 1 2+ second cast time to shields on top of the damn stave heavy attack bug is just...oooooh......icing on the cake.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »so we are gonna base what works and doesn't work based on some random smattering of players and then we are going to feed their gameplay to the wolves so we can have 38 more forum posts trash-talking their group setup, gear choice, ability, etc. . . and that is going to help...how?
It's nonsense.
As suggested by a recent forum poll, a dev live stream would be a reasonable place to start. It would demonstrate that they have actually thought through the changes and that they work in the game they have created. Many people are suggesting that they do not and will not. I dont believe we will ever see such a thing, but It would certainly be nice.
Yeah because four people represent the entire population of the game.Edited by kargen27 on September 20, 2018 9:20PMand then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Zos cannot clear the most challenging content as it is. Not even close. They’re nice people but have a clear disconnect from their game.5 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »so we are gonna base what works and doesn't work based on some random smattering of players and then we are going to feed their gameplay to the wolves so we can have 38 more forum posts trash-talking their group setup, gear choice, ability, etc. . . and that is going to help...how?
It's nonsense.
As suggested by a recent forum poll, a dev live stream would be a reasonable place to start. It would demonstrate that they have actually thought through the changes and that they work in the game they have created. Many people are suggesting that they do not and will not. I dont believe we will ever see such a thing, but It would certainly be nice.
Yeah because four people represent the entire population of the game.
I never said they do. I do believe however that people balancing combat skills should have the ability to demonstrate that their ideas work reasonably well within the parameters of the game they themselves have created. I dont think it's an unreasonable request to essentially say, prove it. In other words, show us that your changes work and will be effective in promoting balanced and fair game play. Absolutely 4 people, whether its Liko, LZH, Alcast, etc. or 4 people that picked up the game last week certainly do not represent the entire playerbase; however, the devs should be able to reasonably represent the game they themselves have created.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on September 20, 2018 9:29PM7 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »ZOS can demonstrate to me that it is reasonably possible to complete their hardest PVE content with the changes on the PTS. Many perhaps saw my first post, which had a modest attempt at humor regarding a serious issue, but it was closed for calling out a dev specifically and not being constructive. It was not nor has it ever been my intention to violate forum rules. For that I apologize.
I
I think the issue that ZOS mentioned was regarding dropping healers for shielders.
Problem is, that when only that type of group that's skirting the way the fight is to be done mechanically is successful they aren't getting good balance or feedback on those fights on pts.
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Wing✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the devs have streamed them clearing content before (I believe they all did stormcaller peak ?)
that said im in love with the shield change so whatever. I especially loved the sorcs confused saying things like "how do we stay alive now" forgetting that things like resistances, heals, regens, protection buffs, etc. exist.
when I read such pure L2P crutch like comments where all they were doing was simply spamming bubbles and they don't know how to do anything else it just makes me shake my head.
that being said, 95% of sorcs are not going to know what to do.ESO player since beta.
game got too disappointing.3 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »ZOS can demonstrate to me that it is reasonably possible to complete their hardest PVE content with the changes on the PTS. Many perhaps saw my first post, which had a modest attempt at humor regarding a serious issue, but it was closed for calling out a dev specifically and not being constructive. It was not nor has it ever been my intention to violate forum rules. For that I apologize.
I
I think the issue that ZOS mentioned was regarding dropping healers for shielders.
Problem is, that when only that type of group that's skirting the way the fight is to be done mechanically is successful they aren't getting good balance or feedback on those fights on pts.
They say that, but they miss the point that it's their own content design that is the problem. I rarely run a shield in 4 man, and use a healer even less. You just dont need a shield for 95% of four man content. Any damage that can kill you is a one shot that needs to be avoided, not healed through, and it's almost all in the forum of an expanding red circle. I can't think of more than a handful of heal checks in any 4 man content.
In trials, every group brings two healers, so it really isnt an issue. Now of course, in speed runs, one of those healers is typical a sorc for the buffs, but if you look at the rest of the group, it is not a bunch of shield stackers. It's 4-5 stam nightblades, and 3-4 magic night blades running ele weapon, twisting path, and trap or CA where their shield should be on their back bar.
The first 5 trials are very doable without a shield for good trial groups. In VCR, its the same problem as a lot of four man stuff. Almost anything that will kill you is a one shot anyway. Healers are needed, but its more to follow mechanics for the rest of the group (kiting, etc). Nothing is going to drastically change for the best groups. Their addons will let them know when to shield, and they will press it a second earlier. Newer groups (and those poor souls on console) are going to feel it, and not in a good way.
They only real heal check in this game is VCR as there is a lot of ambient damage, much of which is oblivion. Well, again, all groups run 2 healers. The mechanic that forces the backroom requires a tank and 2 DPS at a minimum to go downstairs, and frankly, its not practical to expect a healer to go down as well as you would need to more for the group. Funny thing is that you know what is completely worthless downstairs in VCR? A freaking shield as it's all oblivion damage. One thing I have never heard anyone say is lets try to 10 man DPS VCR.
Shields do not make healer useless. They have identified a potential issue, but they have completely missed the root cause because they refuse to acknowledge that it stems from their own content.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on September 20, 2018 9:45PM1 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »ZOS can demonstrate to me that it is reasonably possible to complete their hardest PVE content with the changes on the PTS. Many perhaps saw my first post, which had a modest attempt at humor regarding a serious issue, but it was closed for calling out a dev specifically and not being constructive. It was not nor has it ever been my intention to violate forum rules. For that I apologize.
I
I think the issue that ZOS mentioned was regarding dropping healers for shielders.
Problem is, that when only that type of group that's skirting the way the fight is to be done mechanically is successful they aren't getting good balance or feedback on those fights on pts.
They say that, but they miss the point that it's their own content design that is the problem. I rarely run a shield in 4 man, and use a healer even less. You just dont need a shield for 95% of four man content. Any damage that can kill you is a one shot that needs to be avoided, not healed through, and it's almost all in the forum of an expanding red circle. I can't think of more than a handful of heal checks in any 4 man content.
In trials, every group brings two healers, so it really isnt an issue. Now of course, in speed runs, one of those healers is typical a sorc for the buffs, but if you look at the rest of the group, it is not a bunch of shield stackers. It's 4-5 stam nightblades, and 3-4 magic night blades running ele weapon, twisting path, and trap or CA where their shield should be on their back bar.
The first 5 trials are very doable without a shield for good trial groups. In VCR, its the same problem as a lot of four man stuff. Almost anything that will kill you is a one shot anyway. Healers are needed, but its more to follow mechanics for the rest of the group (kiting, etc). Nothing is going to drastically change for the best groups. Their addons will let them know when to shield, and they will press it a second earlier. Newer groups (and those poor souls on console) are going to feel it, and not in a good way.
They only real heal check in this game is VCR as there is a lot of ambient damage, much of which is oblivion. Well, again, all groups run 2 healers. The mechanic that forces the backroom requires a tank and 2 DPS at a minimum to go downstairs, and frankly, its not practical to expect a healer to go down as well as you would need to more for the group. Funny thing is that you know what is completely worthless downstairs in VCR? A freaking shield as it's all oblivion damage. One thing I have never heard anyone say is lets try to 10 man DPS VCR.
Shields do not make healer useless. They have identified a potential issue, but they have completely missed the root cause because they refuse to acknowledge that it stems from their own content.
I was just pointing out what they said.
I haven't raided since AA and Hellra were the raids of the day and Serpent was new, so I've no clue on pve content.0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I’m not convinced that the devs actually struggle with the content as much as their live streams imply. Maybe they just don’t want to reveal all the best strategies and allow players to develop their own methods of clearing the newest challenges. I bet that Gilliam is capable of clearing vMoS HM, despite what I’ve heard about their live attempt (didn’t catch it myself).
That being said, I fully support the idea of a live demo to show that the changes to shields and Nightblade off-healing do not break end game PvE and PvP. I suspect that even the best players in the game will be unable to clear vCR+3 with these changes, and vAS+2 would be a struggle that is more RNG based. Even if it is not officially organized, a group like MC or Hodor streaming their attempts at the hardest trials on PTS, with drop-blocking delayed shields and heavily nerfed path and funnel, would be a pretty good statement. Maybe they actually do pull it off, either way it would be entertaining and enlightening.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the devs have streamed them clearing content before (I believe they all did stormcaller peak ?)
that said im in love with the shield change so whatever. I especially loved the sorcs confused saying things like "how do we stay alive now" forgetting that things like resistances, heals, regens, protection buffs, etc. exist.
when I read such pure L2P crutch like comments where all they were doing was simply spamming bubbles and they don't know how to do anything else it just makes me shake my head.
that being said, 95% of sorcs are not going to know what to do.
Well part of the problem is that most really good players have abandoned the class already anyway. And I agree, 95% of the sorcs that are left are not going to know what to do. As to sorcs staying alive, please list the class specific protection buffs they get and all these heals you are talking about. Sorcs have power surge, a weak hot, twlight, a strong heal but tied to double barring and potentially a cast time if it dies, and dark conversion, a heal with a cast time that drains stamina.
Lets look at the buffs that effect defense and healing.
Major ward and Resolve: Sorcs have it, but you know who else does? EVERYONE
Minor Ward and Resolve: Sorcs, NBs and DKs have it.
Major Fortitude: DKs have it
Minor Fortitude: Templars have it
Major Vitality: Sorcs and NBs have it, Sorcs are tied to a skill that usually wont make your bars, and NBs get in an ulti.
Minor Vitality: Templar, NB, DK
Major Mending: Warden and DK
Minor Mending: Templar and NB
Major Protection: NB and Warden
Minor Protection: Templar, NB, Warden
Major Evasion: NB
Minor Evasion: Warden
Minor Toughness: Warden
Lets look at relevant Debuffs that effect the same (not as many) :
Major Maim: templar and warden
Minor Maim: NB and DK
Am I missing any?
NBs: 8 total, 1 unique
DKs: 5 total, 1 unique
Templars:6 total, 1 unique
Wardens:7 total, 2 unique
Sorcs: 3, 0 unique
And people wonder why sorcs rely on shield stacking and NBs are broken OP...
Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on September 20, 2018 10:19PM4 -
BalticBlues✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm more interested to see a dev in PVP, doing a Twitch duel : LA Sorc dev vs. NB Youtuber.Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »ZOS can demonstrate to me that it is reasonably possible to complete their hardest PVE content.
Playing in LA, the moment shields are gone, a Sorc is dead in PvP.
Moreover, the moment a Sorc tries re-casting a shield, the new animation says:
"I am just taking a sh*t casting my shield", I really can't do anything else, kill me *now*.
As 95% of devs obviously are not knowing what they do.95% of sorcs are not going to know what to do.
The upcoming patch is not balancing, it is crippling a class.
Crippling 3rd Bar, crippling Shields and crippling DarkConversion to a point where
entire builds and playstyles are not viable anymore.
People put months or even years of their life into building their Sorc.
This patch feels like betrayal, like an official kick in the guts.
What is balancing? For competent developers, it means fine-tuning skills, not breaking skills.
Edited by BalticBlues on September 20, 2018 10:14PM3