PVE and PVP zones and why they're the same. Explain it to me as if I were five...

Geekgirl · September 2018

It seems to me that a great deal of the "issues" players are having with the "fixes" that are continuously introduced because balancing for PVE play is not the same thing as balancing for PVP play.

It seems to me that if you're trying to balance for PVP and make that a great experience for the PVP players, some of the mechanics and skills used in PVE don't work well or are unbalanced, and I can understand that -- it has to be super tricky trying to balance DPS output or mitigation when you have to consider what it looks like when five players are attacking a world boss vs when those same five players are attacking a single player.

It also seems to me that if you're trying to balance for PVE and make that a great experience for PVE players, some of the mechanics and skills used *cannot* be compatible for PVP as, again, the difference between trying to kill a world boss vs. Becky the Templar is a vastly different thing.

The variance in the gameplay, I get. The need for different skills/defense mechanics/etc. I get.

What I need explained to me is:

Why aren't there a different set of rules for PVP vs. PVE? As each section is instanced away from the others, why can't the rules work differently in the PVP areas vs. the PVE areas? Why can't certain things work slightly differently once you enter the PVP zones (or, conversely, the PVE zones)?

It is important to note that I am not asking for either experience to be removed. Nor do I want either experience made "less than" the other. I sincerely want to know why it cannot be coded so that it is optimal for both sets of players?

We understand that PVE does not equal PVP. It doesn't. It shouldn't.
Most PVPers do not want a PVE experience in their PVP (and vice versa).
So with this understood, why not create two similar, yet slightly different experiences?

Turelus · September 2018

The game launched with the mantra and understanding that PvP and PvE would be a seamless experience, players should be able to transition to either without having to understand new variations of skills or sets. If it does X in PvE it should do X in PvP.
The changes and balance would be handled via the Battle Spirit buff/debuff which is applied when you go to Cyrodiil.

Whilst there are large communities dedicated to PvP or PvE there are also large numbers who PvX switching between both types of gameplay with the same character. CP and some skill changes have already made this gameplay choice harder because one has to respec to switch.
Without a duel-spec system or account wide achievements (for those who want all achievements/titles on one character) splitting it too much would basically break the game in two.

ZOS has stated in the past (on ESO Live I believe) that when they balance things they do take both PvP and PvE into consideration, however both sides will always blame the other because it's the internet.

ol_BANK_lo · September 2018

Geekgirl wrote: »

It seems to me that a great deal of the "issues" players are having with the "fixes" that are continuously introduced because balancing for PVE play is not the same thing as balancing for PVP play.

It seems to me that if you're trying to balance for PVP and make that a great experience for the PVP players, some of the mechanics and skills used in PVE don't work well or are unbalanced, and I can understand that -- it has to be super tricky trying to balance DPS output or mitigation when you have to consider what it looks like when five players are attacking a world boss vs when those same five players are attacking a single player.

It also seems to me that if you're trying to balance for PVE and make that a great experience for PVE players, some of the mechanics and skills used *cannot* be compatible for PVP as, again, the difference between trying to kill a world boss vs. Becky the Templar is a vastly different thing.

The variance in the gameplay, I get. The need for different skills/defense mechanics/etc. I get.

What I need explained to me is:

Why aren't there a different set of rules for PVP vs. PVE? As each section is instanced away from the others, why can't the rules work differently in the PVP areas vs. the PVE areas? Why can't certain things work slightly differently once you enter the PVP zones (or, conversely, the PVE zones)?

It is important to note that I am not asking for either experience to be removed. Nor do I want either experience made "less than" the other. I sincerely want to know why it cannot be coded so that it is optimal for both sets of players?

We understand that PVE does not equal PVP. It doesn't. It shouldn't.
Most PVPers do not want a PVE experience in their PVP (and vice versa).
So with this understood, why not create two similar, yet slightly different experiences?

Turelus has it right, although it has been a major complaint for years. Clearly there are skills on the different classes that are better suited for either PVE or PVP, but not both. And no one is going to respec points each time the switch between the two realms, which creates a problem for some. You have to choose one or the other for each character. Some don't mind, but some don't want to make a bunch of toons to cover the different PVE and PVP possibilities.

As much as ZOS tries to balance for both, it will literally never happen, and it will continue to frustrate both sides. I personally enjoy both PVE and PVP, but I also fall into the boat mentioned by Turelus, which is I want my main to have as many of the achievements and titles as possible, but most of that is character bound. That creates a problem. I have always said they need to balance them separately, and there is no reason they can't, other than they don't want to. It wouldn't be that hard for people to figure that these skills work differently in one area than another.

So, alas, the frustration will never end...partially because I don't think ZOS knows how to balance just one aspect, let alone two. Plus, people have always found an OP part of the game and exploited until it's nerfed into the ground. Then the next pops up. It's never-ending.

LadyLethalla · September 2018

But... it doesn't work "seamlessly". Battlespirit, half value heals etc. Sure, I can take my Divines gear users into Cyro but they won't last long without a few pieces of impen and maybe even some CP into the right tree. I know; I've tried. Not to mention that the skill required for PVP is vastly different from PVE.
If the devs could make other skills work differently in PVP, and perhaps add in a QOL aspect such as an instant profile change (as in gear and CP) then that would indeed make it more seamless than it has been until now.

IMO they don't want to do it because that would take extra resources that are instead funnelled into we all know where.

greylox · September 2018

Not to mention the paucity of actual skills you can use (10+2ult), hardly gonna take much re learning.

El_Borracho · September 2018

The heartache comes from putting PVE quests and features into the singular large PVP area, then forcing PVE players to go to that area in order to get a skill or gear that helps in the larger PVE only area (i.e. Caltrops). PVP-focused players (rightfully) believe that if a zone is PVP, killing other players is fair game, all the time. PVE-focused players do not like having to deal with having quests ruined by other players.

If I am in the mood to kill others, then PVP is awesome. If I want to group up and kill bosses, then PVE is what I want. Sometimes PVE and PVP mix well, and its even fun to try to run some recon and other missions in Cyrodill to try to avoid other players, while killing them in the process. What I question is the thought process behind putting dolmens and other larger-scale PVE content in an area where players can freely kill others. Its just asking for griefers and complaining.

karekiz · September 2018

El_Borracho wrote: »

The heartache comes from putting PVE quests and features into the singular large PVP area, then forcing PVE players to go to that area in order to get a skill or gear that helps in the larger PVE only area (i.e. Caltrops). PVP-focused players (rightfully) believe that if a zone is PVP, killing other players is fair game, all the time. PVE-focused players do not like having to deal with having quests ruined by other players.

To be fair Mixing those isn't that big a deal. It is kind of meant to make someone experience both sides if they want it all, which is fine. A person for example queing for Battleground to get caltrops even though they don't like PvP is "content/playerbase" for others. Same thing with pledges and PvPers who want undaunted.

It still isn't seamless transition. Impen drops in PvE with no actual use in PvE and a PvP stat type. If they wanted it all to be kept seamless impen itself needs to be removed - same with those CP such as expert defender.

They already basically have PvP separations. Might as well balance some skills the same way imo.

DanteYoda · September 2018

Turelus wrote: »

The game launched with the mantra and understanding that PvP and PvE would be a seamless experience, players should be able to transition to either without having to understand new variations of skills or sets. If it does X in PvE it should do X in PvP.
The changes and balance would be handled via the Battle Spirit buff/debuff which is applied when you go to Cyrodiil.

Whilst there are large communities dedicated to PvP or PvE there are also large numbers who PvX switching between both types of gameplay with the same character. CP and some skill changes have already made this gameplay choice harder because one has to respec to switch.
Without a duel-spec system or account wide achievements (for those who want all achievements/titles on one character) splitting it too much would basically break the game in two.

ZOS has stated in the past (on ESO Live I believe) that when they balance things they do take both PvP and PvE into consideration, however both sides will always blame the other because it's the internet.

This latest patch doesn't consider pve at all.. If it did these changes would never have been added.. Now i don't play major dungeons but for the life of me how the hell would a 1min cooldown help in hardcore dungeons where twitch timing and coordination count..

It wont it will get people killed and ruin groups experiences.. Honestly if people like Alcast are doing videos on it, its pretty bad atm.. Zos did not consider pve at all..