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Lack of Dev Vision Statement or Communication leads to community unrest.
Grimm13
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ESO suffers GREATLY from a lack of clear communication from the DEV's. A yearly vision statement with quarterly updates is needed spelling out the state of the game, how they view balance and where they are headed.
The issue of balance really needs to be addressed. A community has to know what is the standard that the Dev Team looks to for balance. With no clear communication as to what it is, everyone in the community then thinks their idea is what the standard is, these many be so many different ones that no one can agree if things are right. This has led us to what appears to be the squeaky wheeler nerfs as no one can make sense to them how things are justified on changes. The quarterly updates can let us know if you think you are on track or if you think that you have to adjust your standard to establish a new baseline from learned experiences.
Please stop having us feel like we are being treated like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed natural fertilizer. (avoiding censor) This has what you have made your community to feel about you. It is confused and neglected. Your forum should be the base of all communications, twitch, tweets, FB and all are secondary as not all can or do those. The forum is run on your server the others are hosted by 3rd parties so it is logical to look to your site for the base information. Want to use a video for the statements, fine but put a direct link on the forum to it so
@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
The issue of balance really needs to be addressed. A community has to know what is the standard that the Dev Team looks to for balance. With no clear communication as to what it is, everyone in the community then thinks their idea is what the standard is, these many be so many different ones that no one can agree if things are right. This has led us to what appears to be the squeaky wheeler nerfs as no one can make sense to them how things are justified on changes. The quarterly updates can let us know if you think you are on track or if you think that you have to adjust your standard to establish a new baseline from learned experiences.
Please stop having us feel like we are being treated like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed natural fertilizer. (avoiding censor) This has what you have made your community to feel about you. It is confused and neglected. Your forum should be the base of all communications, twitch, tweets, FB and all are secondary as not all can or do those. The forum is run on your server the others are hosted by 3rd parties so it is logical to look to your site for the base information. Want to use a video for the statements, fine but put a direct link on the forum to it so
@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
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Maryal✭✭✭✭✭
✭"the natives are restless" .... hmmm... sounds like something from an old black-and-white 1950/1960's Tarzan movie. Very cliché.1 -
ExcaliburESO✭✭✭✭Current balance changes happened cuz zenimax finnaly listened to the community! Everyone was waiting for it except our GODS(former) Sorcerers7
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Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I think zos does a great job of explaining themselves, if you read the patch notes, every one of the big changes have a "developer comment" section explaining why they did what they did. You may not agree with it but they do explain things.6 -
Avnr✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »I think zos does a great job of explaining themselves, if you read the patch notes, every one of the big changes have a "developer comment" section explaining why they did what they did. You may not agree with it but they do explain things.
I remember Sload also hade "developer comment"
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Grimm13✭✭✭✭✭
✭ExcaliburESO wrote: »Current balance changes happened cuz zenimax finnaly listened to the community! Everyone was waiting for it except our GODS(former) Sorcerers
Can you say with accuracy what the standard baseline is for balance in ESO? Reviewing the nerf threads in the community you have so many conflicting directions of classes being over or under nerfed. This confusion leads to more posts and threads of wider speculations. Bad input leads to bad output.
Give us a clear statement of what is the baseline class, the type of play style even. Then all these posts can at least be productive in posting how changes should or should not be done against that baseline.
I've seen posts of that DEV's all play NB's cause they are favored or not nerfed. I think that might be the baseline class but we don't know as the DEV do not make it clear from whence they derive their reasoning's.2 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »I think zos does a great job of explaining themselves, if you read the patch notes, every one of the big changes have a "developer comment" section explaining why they did what they did. You may not agree with it but they do explain things.
I remember Sload also hade "developer comment"
Again, the last part of my comment applys, you may not like what they are saying but they are saying it.
Also, I can't find the developer comment you are talking about? Is that your point?0 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ExcaliburESO wrote: »Current balance changes happened cuz zenimax finnaly listened to the community! Everyone was waiting for it except our GODS(former) Sorcerers
Did the community want shields to have a cast time?
Did the community want Major Evasion to be completely replaced with AOE reduction, making Shuffle basically useless?
Did the community want Power Lash to lose its stun, and to have a cost associated with it?
Did the community want Dark Exchange to become an inferior version of Netch?
Did the community want NB's sustain to be gutted, rather than sustain globally rebalanced to make the game less monotonous?7 -
themaddaedra✭✭✭✭✭
✭ExcaliburESO wrote: »Current balance changes happened cuz zenimax finnaly listened to the community! Everyone was waiting for it except our GODS(former) Sorcerers
Did the community want shields to have a cast time?
Did the community want Major Evasion to be completely replaced with AOE reduction, making Shuffle basically useless?
Did the community want Power Lash to lose its stun, and to have a cost associated with it?
Did the community want Dark Exchange to become an inferior version of Netch?
Did the community want NB's sustain to be gutted, rather than sustain globally rebalanced to make the game less monotonous?
Yes, community wanted all of the above except shield cast time. And it was like 24/7 full of people crying for shield nerfs, ZoS just hit too hard. And i'm certain that it will not survive PTS cycle. That's what PTS is for.PC|EU4 -
Jameliel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »I think zos does a great job of explaining themselves, if you read the patch notes, every one of the big changes have a "developer comment" section explaining why they did what they did. You may not agree with it but they do explain things.
You win the award for best sarcasm. You are being sarcastic right?2 -
amir412✭✭✭✭✭
✭ExcaliburESO wrote: »Current balance changes happened cuz zenimax finnaly listened to the community! Everyone was waiting for it except our GODS(former) Sorcerers
No they didnt, they totally ignored the "Class Rep", which raised some serious good points about balance.
The class rep was a spin off to redirect the anger of the commnuity.Edited by amir412 on September 18, 2018 10:14AM5 -
Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ExcaliburESO wrote: »Current balance changes happened cuz zenimax finnaly listened to the community! Everyone was waiting for it except our GODS(former) Sorcerers
Did the community want shields to have a cast time?
Did the community want Major Evasion to be completely replaced with AOE reduction, making Shuffle basically useless?
Did the community want Power Lash to lose its stun, and to have a cost associated with it?
Did the community want Dark Exchange to become an inferior version of Netch?
Did the community want NB's sustain to be gutted, rather than sustain globally rebalanced to make the game less monotonous?
I wanted none of that. I want the damn champion system destroyed. it makes shields stronger. nerf that. Champion system power creep ruins skills.6 -
MaleAmazon✭✭✭✭✭
✭And it was like 24/7 full of people crying for shield nerfs, ZoS just hit too hard. And i'm certain that it will not survive PTS cycle. That's what PTS is for.
Yup. Also shields werent strictly nerfed so much as changed. If armor reduces damage before it hits shield it could even improve a shield build. Cast time, yeah, but then you also get longer duration.
And no offense to shield users, but forgive me for not QQing that you cannot stand still and eat my constant werewolf LA + howl by going recast shield recast shield recast shield anymore. Remember back when the whining was that reducing shield duration would destroy magicka classes? Well that didnt happen. Then the bound armor change would destroy sorcs. Yada yada.
ZOS explained why they changed things the way they did. And it made sense though I might disagree with some changes. They have stated why they do what they do pretty clearly.
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Ngh✭✭MaleAmazon wrote: »ZOS explained why they changed things the way they did. And it made sense though I might disagree with some changes. They have stated why they do what they do pretty clearly.
I believe the OP is saying that ZOS has not given an indication of the "Bar" for the balance. Without a described bar of standards every post calling for changes is uninformed as no one has any idea how ZOS makes these full decisions. Clearly the OP is asking that ZOS have a concise post to inform all how they measure balance so that all can then work from the same process of thought on how balance is viewed from a base point.
It is not a hard concept that an informed person then can understand the process and make informed comments on those basis. Without the knowledge it is all a shot in the dark of opinions.4 -
MaleAmazon✭✭✭✭✭
✭I believe the OP is saying that ZOS has not given an indication of the "Bar" for the balance. Without a described bar of standards every post calling for changes is uninformed as no one has any idea how ZOS makes these full decisions.
Fair enough, but it seems clear to me that there is no gold standard for this, and there can't really be. How do you measure balance between a class that has an emergency escape spell (sorc) and those that don't?
It seems fairly obvious also that there hasn't been any overarching idea here historically. Just look at the major changes; staff attacks scaling off spell damage and not weapon damage, CP tree changed radically, stam morphs for class skills, ice staff suddenly turning into a tanking weapon...
However if you read dev comments there is at the moment a general direction they want players to go in, such as heavy attack resource restore, weaving, being able to tank with all classes etc.
Also, TBH most 'balance suggestions' could best be described as 'biased insanity'. If you have a balance problem, make an informed, well-reasoned post and maybe someone listens.Edited by MaleAmazon on September 18, 2018 11:00AM0 -
efster✭✭✭✭✭A vision statement would require a vision. I don't think it exists, at least not anywhere beyond a vague, nonspecific "let's make a gr8 game guys".
They were pushing the "play as you like" for years before it quietly got pushed somewhere into the background never to be heard from again, because of course you cannot play as you like; the game, particularly the endgame, is not built to be played ~as you like~. You need to play as the devs like.
Animation cancelling was first an unintended mechanic they didn't anticipate that is now being designed around. They talk about every class being able to do every role, then refuse to do anything about the fact that some classes are just better suited to perform certain roles.
The one thing they know for sure is that players will keep buying fluff from the crown store, so maybe that's the vision, but it would sound pretty terrible if they admitted it.Edited by efster on September 18, 2018 11:06AMAD is the best looking faction. I don't make the rules, I just enforce them.3 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I was kind of hoping the old combat team threads we were getting would become something more like a combat focused dev blog.
We do need something which we get monthly or weekly updates on what ZOS wants from the game and where they're taking it.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."2 -
Grimm13✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Patriarch wrote: »OP, you assume ZOS has a long-term vision to communicate.
Like everyone in the game, we hope they have one. A Vision Statement would be their chance to prove it. Even if it is a class in theory and not any of the four actual classes, they still have to have set a base.0 -
TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭...we are being treated like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed natural fertilizer...
This is the most poetic and accurate metaphor for how ZOS treats its playerbase I've ever heard.PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭ESO suffers GREATLY from a lack of clear communication from the DEV's. A yearly vision statement with quarterly updates is needed spelling out the state of the game, how they view balance and where they are headed.
The issue of balance really needs to be addressed. A community has to know what is the standard that the Dev Team looks to for balance. With no clear communication as to what it is, everyone in the community then thinks their idea is what the standard is, these many be so many different ones that no one can agree if things are right. This has led us to what appears to be the squeaky wheeler nerfs as no one can make sense to them how things are justified on changes. The quarterly updates can let us know if you think you are on track or if you think that you have to adjust your standard to establish a new baseline from learned experiences.
Please stop having us feel like we are being treated like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed natural fertilizer. (avoiding censor) This has what you have made your community to feel about you. It is confused and neglected. Your forum should be the base of all communications, twitch, tweets, FB and all are secondary as not all can or do those. The forum is run on your server the others are hosted by 3rd parties so it is logical to look to your site for the base information. Want to use a video for the statements, fine but put a direct link on the forum to it so
@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
ZOS has always made the mistake of balancing the game of PVP , and they do it as if the game was rock vs paper vs scissors. Unfortunately they and when they do a PVE balance its done of a DPS meta.un fotunately this game will continue its path towards a single player RPG with online options because that is the vision of matt frior and he is the boss. If you read their service agreement it clearly gives you the attitude they take towards their community and from that perspective they don't owe you squat. this game caters to one type of player, the churn player . and they market their game specifically at whales in that population. pretty soon all the classes will end up like the DK in the nerf process and have all the strengths flattened to it having no individuality and focused on a dps meta.0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The patch notes always explain what's been done and why, the fact that not everyone most affected (a small minority of players being mainly the min-maxers) agree with them only goes to show why it would be pointless ZOS setting out their thoughts in greater detail in advance - those players would still disagree and threaten to quit if they were implemented etc.
Use your class reps, use the PTS forum, and ultimately decide whether you enjoy the game enough to adapt when changes are made or just want to pack it in as soon as something is changed in a way that you don't like. Meanwhile we know that it's mostly hot air judging by the number who were going to quit several times before but who are still here threatening to quit now.3 -
MaleAmazon✭✭✭✭✭
✭the fact that not everyone most affected (a small minority of players being mainly the min-maxers) agree with them only goes to show why it would be pointless ZOS setting out their thoughts in greater detail in advance - those players would still disagree and threaten to quit if they were implemented etc.
This is true and also they´re damned if they do, damned if they don´t:
When they make classes capable of all roles they are "destroying the game no uniqueness to my class bye I quit".
When they make classes specialised it´s "they promised it´s play as you want they lied this isn´t TES they only care about money I quit".
"Sorcs destroy PvP" "Sorcs are useless in PvP RIP sorcs" "Stamina >>> magicka it´s not even funny u win standing on your head with computer turned off" "Magicka rules all I have no stam instaheal I quit".
God bless them for at least trying. If I´d been lead dev on this game I would have renamed the general forum "The cesspool" and forbidden the devs from going there.3 -
SenorCrouch✭✭✭MaleAmazon wrote: »"Sorcs destroy PvP" "Sorcs are useless in PvP RIP sorcs" "Stamina >>> magicka it´s not even funny u win standing on your head with computer turned off" "Magicka rules all I have no stam instaheal I quit".
Shame that devs always cater more heavily towards PvP and never really ask nor seem to care about the opinions of PvE. Cause as long as PvP and PvE remains linked anything changed for PvP purposes will always have a direct effect on us PvEers. And yet PvPers get the luxury of having their word have more weight on Devs' ears than PvEers.
"What's the cross roads of Alessia Castle? I am trying to get pizza delivered."1 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭MaleAmazon wrote: »the fact that not everyone most affected (a small minority of players being mainly the min-maxers) agree with them only goes to show why it would be pointless ZOS setting out their thoughts in greater detail in advance - those players would still disagree and threaten to quit if they were implemented etc.
This is true and also they´re damned if they do, damned if they don´t:
When they make classes capable of all roles they are "destroying the game no uniqueness to my class bye I quit".
When they make classes specialised it´s "they promised it´s play as you want they lied this isn´t TES they only care about money I quit".
"Sorcs destroy PvP" "Sorcs are useless in PvP RIP sorcs" "Stamina >>> magicka it´s not even funny u win standing on your head with computer turned off" "Magicka rules all I have no stam instaheal I quit".
God bless them for at least trying. If I´d been lead dev on this game I would have renamed the general forum "The cesspool" and forbidden the devs from going there.
well the stam issue has been a thing since launch not many realize the problems orignated from light armor and passives being overpowered with certain builds. instead for 18 months zos began nerfing the classes instead of just fixing the armor passives and reworking the foundation. they started with the DK and gutted the class and moved on from there. By far NB stam was the worst class in game for many many months. then they added the CP system ont an already worbly foundation.I think the frustration on this matter is justified at this point and some of the problem requires a very drastic decision and rebuild CP system rework tam 1 and balance PVP of group dynamics instead of indvidual performance. the other issue is they have fired and hired so much they never finish a vision and build upon broken unfinished ideas0 -
Grimm13✭✭✭✭✭
✭The patch notes always explain what's been done and why, the fact that not everyone most affected (a small minority of players being mainly the min-maxers) agree with them only goes to show why it would be pointless ZOS setting out their thoughts in greater detail in advance - those players would still disagree and threaten to quit if they were implemented etc.
Use your class reps, use the PTS forum, and ultimately decide whether you enjoy the game enough to adapt when changes are made or just want to pack it in as soon as something is changed in a way that you don't like. Meanwhile we know that it's mostly hot air judging by the number who were going to quit several times before but who are still here threatening to quit now.
The Dev Comments in the patch notes do not explain the baseline that they are using when viewing the classes for balance. You totally miss this point.
In baseball you have the stats set out so that you can compare different players and make informed opinions as to how they measure up against each other. Here we have no set baseline in which to compare how to changes that should or should not be made. If you think the baseline should be mDK and another thinks it's mSorc, yet another sNB but the Devs are thinking sTemp, then all calls for changes are every which way.
We establish baselines to aid in communication of ideas. We are exchanging opinions on this because we have an established basis in English. I am just asking that they do this say with how they think and tell us what that baseline is. Clearly communicate this with the community so the community can communicate back their opinions clearly.0 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@ZoS ~ STOP trying to balance PvP & PvE!
All you are doing is repeatedly damaging your community for your refusal to conform.
Just. Stop. It.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/263015/please-stop-using-zos-to-tag-it-doesnt-work/p1Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
ScruffyWhiskers✭✭✭✭✭Community? You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
It's like the socialism activist who thinks that come the revolution in the name of the "community", they will be the ones deciding who gets what taken from whom and given to whom.0 -
Grimm13✭✭✭✭✭
✭ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »Community? You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
It's like the socialism activist who thinks that come the revolution in the name of the "community", they will be the ones deciding who gets what taken from whom and given to whom.
fellowship with others, as a result of sharing common attitudes, interests, and goals.
We as players in ESO are a community, we are sharing our attitudes, interests and goals we have in ESO. I know what it means and how I have used it. It is not on me if you want to read more into that.0 -
Drakkdjinn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »ExcaliburESO wrote: »Current balance changes happened cuz zenimax finnaly listened to the community! Everyone was waiting for it except our GODS(former) Sorcerers
Did the community want shields to have a cast time?
Did the community want Major Evasion to be completely replaced with AOE reduction, making Shuffle basically useless?
Did the community want Power Lash to lose its stun, and to have a cost associated with it?
Did the community want Dark Exchange to become an inferior version of Netch?
Did the community want NB's sustain to be gutted, rather than sustain globally rebalanced to make the game less monotonous?
I wanted none of that. I want the damn champion system destroyed. it makes shields stronger. nerf that. Champion system power creep ruins skills.
Word dawg.0