Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Adding in light attacks between skills might be interesting for a short while, like a harmony within music. However if the harmony is constant then it gets old fast.

But your solution to the problem gets older even faster. Just no harmonies? Booooring. I'm sorry, but taking away the "arbitrary damage boost" doesn't create a more interesting combat design. What you need is a way to rework the entire combat system, which I guarantee you ZOS will not do anytime in the next 5+ years. It's the bedrock of the game. If you find it boring, then you need to find a new game.

Light attack weaving is a good way to separate the good players from the bad by forcing those who want to improve their skills to actually learn a mechanic that isn't required to clear 99% of the content. If you don't like LA weaving, that's fine, you can still play the game almost in its entirety. But if you want to be competitive, as with anything in life, you have to dedicate time and learn a skill, and light attack weaving (though simple once you get the hang of it) is something that almost no casual players do, and that creates the division between casuals and competitive players. It's as it should be, in my opinion.

It’s not going to change because few people don’t wanna do it to get better dps, and auto attacking would render LAs useless, the purpose they serve now is simply drawing the line between skilled people and mediocre people (not talking about those with issues such as carpal tunnel or arthritis). They are the reason why Nightblades are the hardest class to master in PvE. Also, I can’t even imagine doing a rotation without weaving, it would make skill animations much longer and very jerky when going from animation to animation.

Turelus wrote: »

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

If you find it boring, then you need to find a new game.

That's a terrible solution to the issue of some players not enjoying the combat changes. Sorry but no after investing four years into a game, still loving the content but having issues with some changes made in the last year the answer should not be to pack up and leave.

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO wrote: »

Light attack weaving is a good way to separate the good players from the bad by forcing those who want to improve their skills to actually learn a mechanic that isn't required to clear 99% of the content. If you don't like LA weaving, that's fine, you can still play the game almost in its entirety. But if you want to be competitive, as with anything in life, you have to dedicate time and learn a skill, and light attack weaving (though simple once you get the hang of it) is something that almost no casual players do, and that creates the division between casuals and competitive players. It's as it should be, in my opinion.

For players like myself the skill isn't the issue. I can parse well and do good enough DPS for most trials groups. The issue is at the end of the night and for the rest of the week I have a strained finger all week.
Not all of us are asking for LA weave to be removed or abolished, only that there be options and other viable means to compete without this one mechanic being the decider.

This wasn't an issue before Morrowind's major overhaul because the content wasn't balanced around it and skills were not as forced to work with it. Now they are and people are finding issues with that.

But the way that the game's combat is designed is set up in a way that there really isn't much that can be done. Making a light attack follow the global cooldown rule will mean that a very large population of players won't be able to complete higher-tier engame content, as they simply won't have the DPS numbers unless ZOS also nerfs trial bosses, which would require entire mechanical and technical overhauls. For the very small percentage of players who complain about having to weave light attacks, that amount of work simply isn't cost-effective for them to do.

As to the changes in the way that light attacks work in the game, I'll be honest - I don't see a tremendous difference since Morrowind. The point I remember everyone up in arms about was the changes to sustain through CP trees. If you'd care to enlighten me about the Morrowind changes to light attacks, maybe that will help me see where you're coming from.

But even recently in Summerset, even though light attacks got a buff (to better highlight that they are intended as damage-dealing mechanics) and heavy attacks got a nerf (to better highlight heavy attacks as sustain mechanics [which still do pretty decent damage, by the way]), it doesn't change the way people (most people anyway) play the game. People who light attack during their rotations still do it, just like they did before because that's always been the best way to maximize your DPS, not only because of animation cancelling, but because of the extra damage dealt in between each global cooldown. This has always been the way it is, and nobody has to light attack more because now they are slightly stronger than they were before.

As to skills being "forced to work with it [light attacking]," the only ones I can think of are the new Psijic skill elemental weapon, the change to empower affecting only light attacks instead of any ability, and NBs spectral bow, which as far as I know has always relied on light attacks to proc (if there are major ones that I am missing, please let me know - knowledge is power!). And then of course there are now sets in the game that give you buffs based on light attacks, but again, these types of sets have been in the game for a very long time (such as Molag Kena and Queen's Elegance sets). That isn't some dramatic shift towards a light-attack-only-spamming meta. It's a minor buff to an ability that casuals use in excess coming from games like Skyrim, and an ability that smart players capitalize on to increase their DPS in parses for endgame content.

I will admit, I know very little if anything at all about any kind of medical issues or injuries associated with repetitive actions using a keyboard and mouse, but from what I do know I would recommend talking to a doctor on that one. Most video games tend to be pretty heavy on hand and finger use, and while I definitely am not saying you should quit playing video games or manage your time better (because that would obviously be ridiculous and I don't know you), what I am saying is that options exist to cater to those with more specific needs without completely re-hauling the million-dollar infrastructure to an established billion-line code constituting the combat in a video game; options such as macros (which are allowed in the game for pretty much this exact reason), and/or custom keyboards and mice that are more ergonomically comfortable and suited to what you need.

jcm2606 wrote: »

While I don't necessarily agree with Zenimax's choice to buff light attacks while nerfing-but-still-slightly-buffing heavy attacks -- personally, I liked where light attacks were prior to Summerset, they did increase your DPS a good amount for a few reasons, but weren't completely necessary to pull good DPS -- I do prefer having light attack weaving be a thing.

Not only does it add a sense of depth to the combat system, something that you can always work on refining to pump your DPS up even further, but it also helps make the combat system "flow" better. The combat system is fast paced, but the clunky animations combined with the fairly "rigid" skill system make the combat system feel kind of sluggish, however weaving and animation cancelling both help to alleviate that for me, making it far more enjoyable.

If I had my way, light attacks would go back to the level of relevance that they had pre-Summerset -- just an avenue to help make good DPS even better. Keep the resource/damage scaling the same (keep it at 10.5/1, instead of the 40.5/1 that it was pre-Summerset), but revert the changes to Empower, give heavy attacks the same damage coefficients that light attacks use (during the last week or so of the Summerset PTS one of the damage coefficients for heavy attacks was reduced a bit, making them hit a bit weaker than they did at the start of the PTS), allow the Psijic Order spammable to work on the next heavy attack too, and change the new sets to work with heavy attacks too.

That way, if anybody doesn't like light attack builds, they can just switch to heavy attack builds, for a small hit to DPS, but a large improvement to sustain and comfort.

These are the kind of changes that would make me happy. I am not asking to remove LA weaving or make other options on par or better.
Simply that we have a system where those of us who have issues with constant light attacks can do enough DPS to complete the new content, but are not going to be breaking any leaderboard scores.

I never complained about weaving before ZOS started pushing it as a mandatory play requirement for DD roles.

Light attacking and heavy attacking doesn't make sense anyway.

Animation cancelling aside (I've made my stance on that very clear in other threads), heavy attacking shouldn't restore resources. You're literally doing a power attack, it should CONSUME resources but do more damage than regular skills. Light attacks should restore resources because they're easier to pull off than regular skills.

If they just buffed the damage on heavy attacks but added a resource cost, while causing light attacks to restore resources but do far less damage than they do now. Would nightblades have to be reworked, as well as empowered weapon? Sure, but it would be worth it, because the game would go towards actually making sense instead of the nonsense state we're in now.

Light attacking and heavy attacking should be a tactical choice, not mandatory depending on the situation. The fact that you're pretty much expected to light attack between every skill, while also cancelling your animations is beyond silly. It's adding complexity for the sake of complexity. That is bad game design, guys. Like, really bad game design.

Anyone good at animation cancelling / weaving light attacks isn't proving that they're good at anything but those two specific things. To call back to an earlier comment in the thread, nobody cares IRL if you're really good at patting your tummy and rubbing your head at the same time. It adds zero value to you as a person. I have yet to talk to a gaming friend IRL who thinks this is a good system. Most of them laugh and say that it's a reason they would never touch this game. I can't blame them.

qbit wrote: »

I find it difficult to weave light attacks in when I'm doing much other than my spammable. Anything outside the usual rotation just doesn't have the muscle memory and I can't weave efficiently. Like the old rub belly and pat head at same time test.. I know, I got to git gud andL2P. But my point is those players that can weave efficiently and consistently should be rewarded with higher DPS. It's a mechanic that is difficult to fully master, and it's interesting to most people.

I'll tell you what else is difficult for me to master... Not blowing my entire 42k magicka pool doing my spammable and LA weaving. It's a horrible part of how I've learned to play on trash mobs and bosses where I'm used to melting them. Then I start doing dungeons and get on a real boss and cause a bunch of damage and then have to run around like an idiot heavy attacking for 15 seconds. Surprised no one has yelled at me asking why I'm not attacking...

imho DPSing requires too much training to be really good at, making the gap between top and bottom dps too wide. The problem is for a guy like me, I dont have acceptable dps in the eyes of a trial group, I do not like how light attacks are the 1 deciding factor, I dont want to light attack so much. What is the point of my class abilities if they are only doing minor percentage of my overall damage.

Callous2208 wrote: »

Is this an "I can't animation cancel and want changes so my deeps is good also," thread disguised as a call for legitimate improvements? Because nothing brought forth so far makes a lick of sense. Op is literally stating to remove dynamics to make something more dynamic, and that somehow this dumbing down of the system will make it less boring. Throw in some useless numbers that don't support the point and an odd complaint about finger pain and I just don't know what's going on around here anymore.

I can do it. I still think it's bad and want alternatives. We complain because many of us really enjoy the game and want to play, but the mechanics changes and direction the last year has made it much harder to for us.

Many who hate the changes are fine with people who can do it having more DPS and being better than us, we simply want the ability to play the game again without being pigeon holed into light attack weaving.

As I said in my last post, none of us were complaining before it became a mechanic and everyone doing it was better than us. We just did content and were not as good at leaderboards etc.
However now we have skills and balance changes designed to make it a core gameplay mechanic, and eventually (if not already) content will be balanced around that moving the game even more toward LA weave or GTFO.

Callous2208 wrote: »

Is this an "I can't animation cancel and want changes so my deeps is good also," thread disguised as a call for legitimate improvements? Because nothing brought forth so far makes a lick of sense. Op is literally stating to remove dynamics to make something more dynamic, and that somehow this dumbing down of the system will make it less boring. Throw in some useless numbers that don't support the point and an odd complaint about finger pain and I just don't know what's going on around here anymore.

It appears you are confusing Static with dynamic. Pressing the same button/key constantly is static not dynamic. The button/keys other than your own light attacks are what is dynamic. Perhaps you should re-read and consider the meaning of the words.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Unknown_Redemption wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Light attacking through a rotation isn't fun or dynamic, its boring, repetitive, and causes finger pain for some if not many players.

I can understand the idea behind the introduction and use of light/medium/heavy attacks, however centralizing light attacks within the global CD such that the use of light attacks with skills is essential to performing well is poor game design. I got into ESO during PC beta but that was only made possible due to an invitation from a friend, she never played the game after the beta directly because of the light attacks. Her words were: "I wand-ed my way through WoW until they wised up and got rid of it I'm not doing it again."

I say get rid of light/medium/heavy attacks and just give me another skill slot.

I bound LA to my mouse wheel down. I then clicked off the wheel brake and let it spin.

It is not an issue of performing, I am perfectly capable of clicking the same button every second. It is literally boring, animation canceling means I don't even see my light attacks I only hear them. Might as well create a game where you need to press the "alt" key before any input in order to gain 17% more damage on the rest of your output.

Animation cancelling doesnt cancel the animation of the light attack, you cancel the animation of the skill so you should always see the light attack animation.

Not everyone likes it but you cannot please everyone anyway.
I think its a good mechanic to allow player skill to have more influence in dps numbers.
Clicking skills on cooldown sounds more boring if you ask me.

While I used a bit of hyperbole I assumed most would understand where it came from. I suggest you watch this video and consider how easy it is to see the light attacks versus how easy it is to see skills. Light attacks for all practical purposes disappear when animation canceled well, only certain skills practically disappear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVpyEPRnchw

Parrot1986 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Repetitive Strain Injury is the result of poor use in connection with constant repetition. The spacing of light attacks in an optimal rotation is not as infrequent as the spacing of spaces between words, this repetition opens the gate for injury if proper breaks and rests are not taken.

I believe this accounts for the occurrence of finger pain complaints in relation to PVE dps, I have had some pain with it and I have spoken to many others who have had the same experience. Only in relation to PVE dps within ESO have I seen this complaint arise. It isn't widespread from my interaction, and I would say it is probably less than 5-10%.

I can understand not liking the LA style of fighting, especially now it’s such a major factor to DPS but I cant figure out how having it there increases chances for RSI? If I remove LAs then I’ll just be casting my spammable more so surely then The risk is just as high as I’m still clicking a button a high number of times.

Personally I enjoy the combat in ESO compared to the other MMOs I’ve played mainly down to lack of tab targeting and combat feels to be more free flowing. LAs contribute to that and it’s such a core part of the game from resource management, ultimate regen and damage it’s not going to change. I much prefer this to after Morrowind when Heavy Attacks were more necessary for sustain and the damage boost they got.

Lets assume you have some sort of rotation, and you don't simply press the same skill with each light attack. Lets also assume that you under normal circumstances animation cancel every skill with a light attack by clicking your left mouse button with your right index finger. While you use skills from the key board with various fingers.

For a 30 second window you will have hit your left mouse button 30 times once a second every second. You will have hit various other buttons various numbers of times. If you are running any sort of normal rotation you aren't hitting a "spammable" more than 3-4 times in a row as you must keep dots and buffs going. Which means if you have 5 skills in your rotation and one is your spammable you will have hit your spammable around 15 times within that 30 seconds.

For the same 30 second window lets assume you do not have light weaving, but you still have your dots and spammable. You do not hit your left mouse button, and you hit our spammable the same 15 times. You saved 30 mouse clicks, and they were not exactly evenly spaced and constant. Of the skills you did hit individual skills had what would appear to be a less predictable spacing than once per second.

This is not difficult math, and if you cannot see the saved repetitions I do not know how to help you. There is not another game that I have played in recent memory that encourages such base repetition.

jcm2606 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

SammyFable wrote: »

This thread is comedy gold. To all those claiming their inability or disliking of weaving locks you out of the game, what are you trying to play? Who prevents you from doing so? This game is most likely 90%+ just questing. Want to do that? That's fine, no weaving necessary, just lay some dots and use a spammable. Do you want to pvp? Sure, do it without weaving. You might not be as successful as others but you can surely do it. Dungeons? Yep, you're fine. Trials? No problem. Mastering the hardest content the game has to offer with little to no effort, flawlessly? Well, there's always tanking.
@OP Tell me how it's more interesting to press one button a second than pressing two buttons a second. Or let me phrase it like this, is it more interesting to spam buttons 1-5 or timing the key strokes with a LMB press?
I can understand the point for consoles, the RT button doesn't seem to be a good choice for LAs, it should be remapable.
Another thing, did you ever play any single player TES games? In those Light and heavy attacks are all you have, doesn't even matter if you use a regular weapon or a spell. There are almost no other skills, just the shouts in skyrim and racial skills.

The thread in no way references or suggests being locked out of the game. I am able and have completed virtually all game content.

Light weaving is static, it is repetitive, both of these statements are easily proven and do not rely on opinions. In my opinion static repetition is boring game-play and an indicator of poor design. In my opinion this is not a good game design to move forward with.

Removing light attack weaving from a static rotation still leaves you with a static rotation, though? It's not like you slow yourself down or outright stop using skills to weave light attacks.

12131415161718191213141516171819
12345678912345678912345678912345

Both of the above are technically static but one has significantly more static repetition than the other. The first line engages the "1" key sixteen times, the second engages the 1 key four times. That is a 75% reduction in unnecessary repetitive static button presses. One is more dynamic by comparison to the other, and its quite a big difference.

jcm2606 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

SammyFable wrote: »

This thread is comedy gold. To all those claiming their inability or disliking of weaving locks you out of the game, what are you trying to play? Who prevents you from doing so? This game is most likely 90%+ just questing. Want to do that? That's fine, no weaving necessary, just lay some dots and use a spammable. Do you want to pvp? Sure, do it without weaving. You might not be as successful as others but you can surely do it. Dungeons? Yep, you're fine. Trials? No problem. Mastering the hardest content the game has to offer with little to no effort, flawlessly? Well, there's always tanking.
@OP Tell me how it's more interesting to press one button a second than pressing two buttons a second. Or let me phrase it like this, is it more interesting to spam buttons 1-5 or timing the key strokes with a LMB press?
I can understand the point for consoles, the RT button doesn't seem to be a good choice for LAs, it should be remapable.
Another thing, did you ever play any single player TES games? In those Light and heavy attacks are all you have, doesn't even matter if you use a regular weapon or a spell. There are almost no other skills, just the shouts in skyrim and racial skills.

The thread in no way references or suggests being locked out of the game. I am able and have completed virtually all game content.

Light weaving is static, it is repetitive, both of these statements are easily proven and do not rely on opinions. In my opinion static repetition is boring game-play and an indicator of poor design. In my opinion this is not a good game design to move forward with.

Removing light attack weaving from a static rotation still leaves you with a static rotation, though? It's not like you slow yourself down or outright stop using skills to weave light attacks.

12131415161718191213141516171819
12345678912345678912345678912345

Both of the above are technically static but one has significantly more static repetition than the other. The first line engages the "1" key sixteen times, the second engages the 1 key four times. That is a 75% reduction in unnecessary repetitive static button presses. One is more dynamic by comparison to the other, and its quite a big difference.

That is not dynamic, at all. That's just a static rotation with a different set of skills. You should look up what a dynamic rotation is and how it differs from a static rotation.

Now you are just arguing semantics. No-one actually has a purely static rotation I used one to show how light attack weaving was more static than not light attack weaving within a purely static rotation.

By definition dynamic:

"characterized by constant change, activity, or progress."

Just consider 123456789 versus 121314151, both have nine characters one has more repeated characters, one has no repeated characters. One is less subject to change and is there for less dynamic, while one is more subject to change and is therefore more dynamic.

If you have a close approximation of a static rotation you will have a significantly less aproximate static rotation albeit still somewhat static in appearance. If you had a very dynamic rotation, which is a bit of an oxymoron, it will be a close approximation to an actual dynamic rotation.


This is a complete aside from the analysis of statically clicking the exact same button/key every second. Everyone should want to play a game that does not encourage them to hit the EXACT same button/key every second.