Can we eliminate the 1 class PvE dps domination for several patch ideology?

templesus · September 2018

This ideology has been a theme since launch and I am not sure why ZOS still subscribeds to it. It is blatantly obvious that you want 1 class to dominate for a few patches then change it up because you’ve had numerous chances to change that and haven’t...and for whatever reason people on these forums are too selfish pushing their own class to see the actual problem. Someone on the recent sorc thread actually said mag sorc dps is so low they only get in trials as a healer for their synergy...as if Templar isn’t in the same boat, Dk isn’t in the same boat, and Warden isn’t in the same boat. It’s literally all Nightblade dps because they pull so much more dps then every other spec.

This is going to be speaking from a strictly magicka standpoint;

Classes without utility should undoubtedly do more dps then classes with utility, however the difference should not be as great as it is. Sustain is also a big factor and classes need to be buffed to be on par with Nightblade who are literally able to parse on a 3m with bistat food. Realistically, the DPS differentials should look like this: Nb=Warden(only real utility is Master Architect, don’t count aoe major breach as real utility or minor savagery as speaking strictly magicka groups) and they should be pulling a solid 1k> Dk who’s only real utility is Fiery breath which is used by tanks, and should pull=Templar who’s utility is minor sorcery which is provided by healers, and this they should pull about 1k>Sorc who has a unique synergy as well as minor prophecy and major berserk. Having the lowest single target dps is compensated by having the best aoe dps of all mag classes.

ZOS please stop pushing agenda of 1 class at a time. It is toxic to the game and forces a lot of people out of playing their main class.

Onefrkncrzypope · September 2018

Well it's honestly it's just meta humping. All dps is really close to one another. Some please link the fear turbo thingy. One problem that keeps the meta is burst and execute>> sustained dps. So nightblades are ran over other classes

ll_Rev · September 2018

Let’s not forget nb dps tests are inflated from minor berserk.

idk · September 2018

Those of ur that have been around MMORPGs for awhile understand that as games make adjustments in search of that mythical balance there will always be one class that shines. Which class that is changes over time. For the most part eso is not as bad as OP makes it out to be.

jypcy · September 2018

Also, if you’re being forced out of playing your main class, maybe find other people to run with. I know the meta is scripture to a lot of the end game community, but if you can show that you know what you’re doing and you’re friends with the people you play with, I’ve found no problem running what I want. E.g., NB is and has been meta dps for a while, but I used magplar for vAS hm and magwarden for vMoS hm, just for some examples of non-meta endgame dps.

Edit: and more specifically to your point, I don’t think zos intentionally has such an ideology, but I think that their in-house testers don’t have the same skill as community members. So they might test the classes and get similar or “balanced” results, but put those same classes in the hands of a top-tier raider in the community and greater disparities emerge. So I think the class rep program will really help zos understand what the classes are capable of at a higher skill level that does better stress testing of dps capabilities at their higher limits.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

ll_Rev wrote: »

Let’s not forget nb dps tests are inflated from minor berserk.

On another hand, I also see a lot of people who tend to overestimate the value of minor berserk. It's useful to remember that it does not give raw 8% damage increase - in reality, it will give much smaller increase because bonuses are additive, not multiplicative.

Everstorm · September 2018

idk wrote: »

Those of ur that have been around MMORPGs for awhile understand that as games make adjustments in search of that mythical balance there will always be one class that shines. Which class that is changes over time. For the most part eso is not as bad as OP makes it out to be.

There is no realistic way to achieve balance in a class based system which is further complicated by a wide variety of gear, traits, enchantments en mundus stones. What they should really strive for is to make each class enjoyable. In the end that is way more important.

Sigtric · September 2018

As long as there are different classes and builds there will always be one that stands on top when the minmaxing community figures out which is top performer after any changes.

The only way to keep this from happening is to make all DPS identical. No thanks

Pops_ND_Irish · September 2018

Hehe

Pops_ND_Irish · September 2018

templesus wrote: »

This ideology has been a theme since launch and I am not sure why ZOS still subscribeds to it. It is blatantly obvious that you want 1 class to dominate for a few patches then change it up because you’ve had numerous chances to change that and haven’t...and for whatever reason people on these forums are too selfish pushing their own class to see the actual problem. Someone on the recent sorc thread actually said mag sorc dps is so low they only get in trials as a healer for their synergy...as if Templar isn’t in the same boat, Dk isn’t in the same boat, and Warden isn’t in the same boat. It’s literally all Nightblade dps because they pull so much more dps then every other spec.

This is going to be speaking from a strictly magicka standpoint;

Classes without utility should undoubtedly do more dps then classes with utility, however the difference should not be as great as it is. Sustain is also a big factor and classes need to be buffed to be on par with Nightblade who are literally able to parse on a 3m with bistat food. Realistically, the DPS differentials should look like this: Nb=Warden(only real utility is Master Architect, don’t count aoe major breach as real utility or minor savagery as speaking strictly magicka groups) and they should be pulling a solid 1k> Dk who’s only real utility is Fiery breath which is used by tanks, and should pull=Templar who’s utility is minor sorcery which is provided by healers, and this they should pull about 1k>Sorc who has a unique synergy as well as minor prophecy and major berserk. Having the lowest single target dps is compensated by having the best aoe dps of all mag classes.

ZOS please stop pushing agenda of 1 class at a time. It is toxic to the game and forces a lot of people out of playing their main class.

I dont have any problem playing my main !

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2018

Unless you are in 1 of about 5-6 raid groups, what you are describing is not really all that accurate or much of an issue. That said, in those 5-6 raid groups, they are going to run whatever class gives them the most damage, even if it is only fractionally better. With 5 classes, you will never get perfect balance unless you homogenize the classes, which most people dont want. If mWarden started pulling 1-2% more DPS than the rest, those 5-6 raid groups are switching. Perfect balance is impossible, and one class will always rise to the top, even if its by a small amount.

That said, NB is probably a bit too far out in front at this point. It frankly has more to do with sustain than damage. I have said it before, but if you want balance, it needs to start with sustain. All classes should be able to get through a dummy parse self buffed with a similar number of sacrifices for sustain. Currently, the sacrifices a NB must make is to keep up ele drain, cast siphoning strikes 2-3 times, and run witchmothers if they dont have orb support. Other classes need to do significantly more than that. I dont know what the answer is, but truthfully, I like NB sustain where it is currently.

If it where up to me, I would start by figuring out how put sustain on a level playing field. The simplest bandaid approach would be to put a skill similar to Siphoning Strikes in a non class skill line. Then at least we could start to objectively look at what skills are over/under performing. If class A can sustain practically infinitely and class B needs to heavy attack 3-4 times a minute, there is no way you can balance the damage.

The other problem with NB currently is really not technically a NB exclusive problem. It is the rise of the dynamic rotation which wasnt really that common even a year ago. NBs toolkit (merciless) just works well with it. We are starting to see the skill gap widen significantly in this game. Your average player is not going to pull the most DPS with a NB, despite the forums will say. Most of the player base simply cant pull off the rotation. Problem is that there are lots of youtube videos of people that can.

Dalsinthus · September 2018

The dominance of NBs, especially mNBs, in the highest tier of the PVE raid community is clearly the current meta. Teams that are trying top leaderboards seem to be primarily mNB dps. So that's clearly a thing that the devs should work to re-balance, but I think it is important to keep in mind that this concern is only relevant to a very small slice of the playerbase. For basically all other pve end-game content, you can play a solid dps on any class, stamina or magicka, including landing difficult achievements in DLC dungeons and trials. (Except maybe a mag Warden; I hear they're terrible.) I have three dps characters: stam NB, mag Sorc, and mag DK. They all have their pluses and minuses, but they pull really similar dps numbers, all within a few k of one another.

idk · September 2018

Everstorm wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Those of ur that have been around MMORPGs for awhile understand that as games make adjustments in search of that mythical balance there will always be one class that shines. Which class that is changes over time. For the most part eso is not as bad as OP makes it out to be.

There is no realistic way to achieve balance in a class based system which is further complicated by a wide variety of gear, traits, enchantments en mundus stones. What they should really strive for is to make each class enjoyable. In the end that is way more important.

Which is why I refered to balance as mythical.

As it is though, each clsss is enjoyable to those to like the play style of each clsss. Everyone has their favorite class and each class has such a following.

Didgerion · September 2018

It is just a bad design right from the beginning.

1. There should be no classes in this game at all - just the skill lines. Some classes are so badly balanced that the players don't even use class skills at all.
I get some players stick to a class and try hard to make it work no-matter what. It is an interesting challenge, but it is just 1% of the player base who enjoys doing it. The majority players simply follow the meta, and if there is no meta for their class then they put the game on hold.

2. Now on top of class balance there is PVE/PVP aspect to it as well. They have different mechanics and impossible to balance.

3. On top of that there is CP/ no-CP campaign and tons of sets.

You have to be a genius to balance all that. Such geniuses does not exist in ESO - if it would exist then there would be no classes at all in the ESO design.

I know very few of you agrees with the point one (as the game's live the 4th year now and the mind is already set and you love too much your class), but look how many players have left the game because of one skill nerf. As if you nerf a skill it usually means you nerf a class - and that's very painful.

ResTandRespeC · September 2018

templesus wrote: »

This ideology has been a theme since launch and I am not sure why ZOS still subscribeds to it. It is blatantly obvious that you want 1 class to dominate for a few patches then change it up because you’ve had numerous chances to change that and haven’t...and for whatever reason people on these forums are too selfish pushing their own class to see the actual problem. Someone on the recent sorc thread actually said mag sorc dps is so low they only get in trials as a healer for their synergy...as if Templar isn’t in the same boat, Dk isn’t in the same boat, and Warden isn’t in the same boat. It’s literally all Nightblade dps because they pull so much more dps then every other spec.

This is going to be speaking from a strictly magicka standpoint;

Classes without utility should undoubtedly do more dps then classes with utility, however the difference should not be as great as it is. Sustain is also a big factor and classes need to be buffed to be on par with Nightblade who are literally able to parse on a 3m with bistat food. Realistically, the DPS differentials should look like this: Nb=Warden(only real utility is Master Architect, don’t count aoe major breach as real utility or minor savagery as speaking strictly magicka groups) and they should be pulling a solid 1k> Dk who’s only real utility is Fiery breath which is used by tanks, and should pull=Templar who’s utility is minor sorcery which is provided by healers, and this they should pull about 1k>Sorc who has a unique synergy as well as minor prophecy and major berserk. Having the lowest single target dps is compensated by having the best aoe dps of all mag classes.

ZOS please stop pushing agenda of 1 class at a time. It is toxic to the game and forces a lot of people out of playing their main class.

All this is going to do is get the nightblade nerfed theres nothing wrong with nightblades. The problem is that all the new content focuses on what nightblades are good at, mobility and sustain. Fights and classes need to be designed in such a way that they are needed. Sorcs used to be used for offbalance and vulnerability, templars for execute damage etc.but now theyve taken that all away.

Eyesinthedrk · September 2018

In my experience, sustain is the single biggest issue. My mag sorc and mag Dk are no worse than my mag blade when I do a no ult, no Zaan, no execute, pure rotation on the precursor.

The problem is that on the 3mil the Dk and sorc are out of juice as soon as they get through one complete rotation. Where as the NB may need one heavy attack through the whole parse.

If ZOS were to revert the morrowind sustain cp changes (25% max recovery 25% max cost reduction) I think they can fix a large chunk of the performance gap without even touching the classes specifically.

ResTandRespeC · September 2018

Likewise i play all classes all the time
Literally the only reason to choose nbs over any other class is top end score runs, and new content progression

MashmalloMan · September 2018

Sustain is the issue as others have said. Using a heavy attack or investing in to more regen is causing a bigger disparity between nightblades and other classes. Nightblades can sacrifice less to achieve the same sustain as other classes.

They're still a little bit stronger in a fully buffed parse but not by much if the sustain was the same.

nemvar · September 2018

ll_Rev wrote: »

Let’s not forget nb dps tests are inflated from minor berserk.

Let's not forget that warden dps tests are inflated from minor beserk.

Integral1900 · September 2018

Just a thought but, perhaps one reason they pull ahead is because the content favours them, after all we have had a bunch of dungeons and especially the mini trials where anything that’s not good at mobility and massive single target dps gets punched into the ground. Are the nightblades nessesarily so much better, or is it that the content favours them over all the others?

Just my pennies worth

Wifeaggro13 · September 2018

templesus wrote: »

This ideology has been a theme since launch and I am not sure why ZOS still subscribeds to it. It is blatantly obvious that you want 1 class to dominate for a few patches then change it up because you’ve had numerous chances to change that and haven’t...and for whatever reason people on these forums are too selfish pushing their own class to see the actual problem. Someone on the recent sorc thread actually said mag sorc dps is so low they only get in trials as a healer for their synergy...as if Templar isn’t in the same boat, Dk isn’t in the same boat, and Warden isn’t in the same boat. It’s literally all Nightblade dps because they pull so much more dps then every other spec.

This is going to be speaking from a strictly magicka standpoint;

Classes without utility should undoubtedly do more dps then classes with utility, however the difference should not be as great as it is. Sustain is also a big factor and classes need to be buffed to be on par with Nightblade who are literally able to parse on a 3m with bistat food. Realistically, the DPS differentials should look like this: Nb=Warden(only real utility is Master Architect, don’t count aoe major breach as real utility or minor savagery as speaking strictly magicka groups) and they should be pulling a solid 1k> Dk who’s only real utility is Fiery breath which is used by tanks, and should pull=Templar who’s utility is minor sorcery which is provided by healers, and this they should pull about 1k>Sorc who has a unique synergy as well as minor prophecy and major berserk. Having the lowest single target dps is compensated by having the best aoe dps of all mag classes.

ZOS please stop pushing agenda of 1 class at a time. It is toxic to the game and forces a lot of people out of playing their main class.

They need to remove dps meta completely and make the game more rounded , it's a very shortsighted one trick pony development teams use to simply content creating

idk · September 2018

Didgerion wrote: »

It is just a bad design right from the beginning.

1. There should be no classes in this game at all - just the skill lines. Some classes are so badly balanced that the players don't even use class skills at all.
I get some players stick to a class and try hard to make it work no-matter what. It is an interesting challenge, but it is just 1% of the player base who enjoys doing it. The majority players simply follow the meta, and if there is no meta for their class then they put the game on hold.

2. Now on top of class balance there is PVE/PVP aspect to it as well. They have different mechanics and impossible to balance.

3. On top of that there is CP/ no-CP campaign and tons of sets.

You have to be a genius to balance all that. Such geniuses does not exist in ESO - if it would exist then there would be no classes at all in the ESO design.

I know very few of you agrees with the point one (as the game's live the 4th year now and the mind is already set and you love too much your class), but look how many players have left the game because of one skill nerf. As if you nerf a skill it usually means you nerf a class - and that's very painful.

Tbs is absolutely wrong and would be the most boring mmorpg.

It would totally lack flavor and if you wanted good dps you’d be required to have 3 specific skill lines.

So it wouldn’t solve a thing except kill the game.

JimmyJuJu · September 2018

All I know is Jesus Beam got a nice buff this patch and my execute damage has noticeably gone up - especially in Cyro.

So - yeah - those dirty Nightblades. Boo.

Hateanthem · September 2018

I don't run endgame content in ESO but have in other MMO's, and in my experience most DPS classes are relatively close to each other, to the point that the players skill it what determines who is on top of the DPS chart at the end of a fight.

If you are running with a group that demands you play a certain class because it's theoretical DPS output is 3%-5% greater than the others, you are running with what I like to call... "dingalings". People who constantly chase the meta because they think that having those numbers is more important than anything else in the game, and see it as some kind of arbitrary status symbol that means absolutely nothing to anyone who is not another "dingaling".

Play what you enjoy. If endgame content is what you like, master what you play so you can say you perform to the best of your classes realistic abilities.

It's the players that always seem to create a toxic environment when it comes to endgame content, and this is across all MMOs that I have played.

Just my $.02.

zaria · September 2018

Hateanthem wrote: »

I don't run endgame content in ESO but have in other MMO's, and in my experience most DPS classes are relatively close to each other, to the point that the players skill it what determines who is on top of the DPS chart at the end of a fight.

If you are running with a group that demands you play a certain class because it's theoretical DPS output is 3%-5% greater than the others, you are running with what I like to call... "dingalings". People who constantly chase the meta because they think that having those numbers is more important than anything else in the game, and see it as some kind of arbitrary status symbol that means absolutely nothing to anyone who is not another "dingaling".

Play what you enjoy. If endgame content is what you like, master what you play so you can say you perform to the best of your classes realistic abilities.

It's the players that always seem to create a toxic environment when it comes to endgame content, and this is across all MMOs that I have played.

Just my $.02.

Yes, this get even more comical if you are still has among the highers dps in group.
As for me magic builds == healers, doing HA with staffs are hyper annoying, j don't have very high dps and queue for healers are shorter.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2018

Dalsinthus wrote: »

The dominance of NBs, especially mNBs, in the highest tier of the PVE raid community is clearly the current meta. Teams that are trying top leaderboards seem to be primarily mNB dps. So that's clearly a thing that the devs should work to re-balance, but I think it is important to keep in mind that this concern is only relevant to a very small slice of the playerbase. For basically all other pve end-game content, you can play a solid dps on any class, stamina or magicka, including landing difficult achievements in DLC dungeons and trials. (Except maybe a mag Warden; I hear they're terrible.) I have three dps characters: stam NB, mag Sorc, and mag DK. They all have their pluses and minuses, but they pull really similar dps numbers, all within a few k of one another.

@Dalsinthus
Stamblade>Mageblade in every trial except the last two. They pull measurably more damage. Stam nightblade is the apex of damage in this game, period. People will stack as many stam as they can first, then they fill in with magic. Only place where mNB is stacked is VAS and VCR HMs, because range and mobility is so important.

To be perfectly blunt, if you pull similar numbers with those three classes, you dont play NB very well. It frankly illustrates my earlier point that most of the playerbase wont actually perceive that much of a gap between NB and the rest of the classes. At the extreme end of things, stamNB is noticably out in front of the other classes you mentioned, but it takes a lot of skill and in the case of stam nightblade, a partially dynamic rotation to pull it off (mageblade being fully dynamic).

So the question becomes, whom do you balance around? The 1% or the average joe. Not sure what the answer is, but this illustrates the issue pretty well. If we balance around the 1%, this game is pretty out of whack at the moment. If we balance around the average player, as you said, there isnt that much difference between the classes.

Drakkdjinn · September 2018

Don’t worry, ur class will be FotM again at some point for some arbitrary reason, their idea of balance is a rotating door & always has been.

Dalsinthus · September 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

To be perfectly blunt, if you pull similar numbers with those three classes, you dont play NB very well.

Hey man, I basically agree with you about the question of who do you balance around. As for you criticizing my ability to play - was that really necessary? But thanks for that; really brightened my afternoon. Have a nice day!

BuddyAces · September 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Unless you are in 1 of about 5-6 raid groups, what you are describing is not really all that accurate or much of an issue. That said, in those 5-6 raid groups, they are going to run whatever class gives them the most damage, even if it is only fractionally better. With 5 classes, you will never get perfect balance unless you homogenize the classes, which most people dont want. If mWarden started pulling 1-2% more DPS than the rest, those 5-6 raid groups are switching. Perfect balance is impossible, and one class will always rise to the top, even if its by a small amount.

That said, NB is probably a bit too far out in front at this point. It frankly has more to do with sustain than damage. I have said it before, but if you want balance, it needs to start with sustain. All classes should be able to get through a dummy parse self buffed with a similar number of sacrifices for sustain. Currently, the sacrifices a NB must make is to keep up ele drain, cast siphoning strikes 2-3 times, and run witchmothers if they dont have orb support. Other classes need to do significantly more than that. I dont know what the answer is, but truthfully, I like NB sustain where it is currently.

If it where up to me, I would start by figuring out how put sustain on a level playing field. The simplest bandaid approach would be to put a skill similar to Siphoning Strikes in a non class skill line. Then at least we could start to objectively look at what skills are over/under performing. If class A can sustain practically infinitely and class B needs to heavy attack 3-4 times a minute, there is no way you can balance the damage.

The other problem with NB currently is really not technically a NB exclusive problem. It is the rise of the dynamic rotation which wasnt really that common even a year ago. NBs toolkit (merciless) just works well with it. We are starting to see the skill gap widen significantly in this game. Your average player is not going to pull the most DPS with a NB, despite the forums will say. Most of the player base simply cant pull off the rotation. Problem is that there are lots of youtube videos of people that can.

If you're not a class rep, why aren't you one? I never look at forum names (I've probably got in pissin matches with guildies for all I know) but every time I read one of your posts I look at the username and there you are. I pretty much agree with every post you ever make.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2018

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

To be perfectly blunt, if you pull similar numbers with those three classes, you dont play NB very well.

Hey man, I basically agree with you about the question of who do you balance around. As for you criticizing my ability to play - was that really necessary? But thanks for that; really brightened my afternoon. Have a nice day!

@Dalsinthus
Hey bud, I am not trying to criticize, I am just calling what I see. You listed 3 classes, and said they all pull within 1-2k of one another when you play them. If that is true, you are either not all that great at stamblade or mindblowingly good at the other two. Hard to say this and not sound like an ass, but I am guessing it's not the later.

I really didnt mean it as an attack, and really do apologize if it came off that way. You are in the same boat as most of the people on the forums, and it really illustrated the point I was trying to make. The vast majority of the player base is just not going to perceive the DPS gap that exists among classes as those that are breaking world records, because they simply cant perform the rotation at that level.

NB (due largely in part to how merciless/relentless functions) has a much higher skill threshold than every other class in this game. If you dont have a perfect weave and fire a bow proc every fifth skill, the damage is not going to be that far out of line from other skills like frags, that are much easier to execute. That said, if you can execute it at that level, the damage difference is remarkable. Same goes for a dynamic rotation. If you play NB essentially as a static rotation (i.e. there is a set order to it), it falls in line with other classes in a hurry, but if you can play it dynamically, the gap becomes much more noticable.

Glurin · September 2018

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Well it's honestly it's just meta humping. All dps is really close to one another. Some please link the fear turbo thingy. One problem that keeps the meta is burst and execute>> sustained dps. So nightblades are ran over other classes

This.

You can't eliminate the "1 class PvE DPS domination" because unless you make them all completely identical there will always be one class that "overwhelmingly outperforms the others." (ie. does anywhere above .1% more damage) The metasheep will always follow that class and will always complain about other classes not pulling their own weight and being carried by the top performer.

Of course it's a good idea to balance them so that the difference is as small as it can reasonably be. But no matter what you do, there will always be one that's meta.