LonePirate wrote: »

Let me give an Awesome to the OP. If ZOS continues releasing dungeons that are close to impossible for a group of new, low CP players to complete even on normal mode, then ZOS is queueing up their game for a death march. The vet versions of dungeons should be challenging but not impossible for a group of players around CP 300-400. Lower CP players should find vet dungeons very difficult while high CP players should still need to work to complete them but not bang their heads against unforgiving content. Limit the near impossible stuff to vet trials.

As such, the difficulty of both normal and vet versions for all DLC dungeons should be lowered while maybe slightly increasing the difficulty of the vet versions of non-DLC I (not II) dungeons.

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

What to do about DLC dungeons? I can only speak for me. I avoid dungeons where the mechanics seem too convoluted/irritating to be enjoyable for me. So count me among the ESO+ subscribers who totally avoid DLC dungeons.

karekiz wrote: »

1. Create a Tank / Heal / DPS test for DLC dungeons. Each character must take the test for each of the roles and pass to enable role selection.
2. The test may be started at 300 CP
3. Seperate DLC random que
4. Add new bonuses for Vet classic / Vet DLC que - Vet classic provides 100% 3 CP on purple completion for reward. - Vet DLC provides the same reward <Classic and DLC are both seperate rewards> for CP, but a bonus Motif from Motif based DLC.
ICP/WGT get 2K gold for the purple clear.

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

1. Create a Tank / Heal / DPS test for DLC dungeons. Each character must take the test for each of the roles and pass to enable role selection.
2. The test may be started at 300 CP
3. Seperate DLC random que
4. Add new bonuses for Vet classic / Vet DLC que - Vet classic provides 100% 3 CP on purple completion for reward. - Vet DLC provides the same reward <Classic and DLC are both seperate rewards> for CP, but a bonus Motif from Motif based DLC.
ICP/WGT get 2K gold for the purple clear.

THIS ! This is exactly what I've been advocating for a long long while now and I'm glad I'm not the only one apparently.

Dear ZOS,

don't worry about how splitting the DLC dungeons off into their own new "veteran DLC random dungeon" section will split the pools and increase queuing times because it's already the case. People that shouldn't or prefer not to be there in the first place just instant leave upon entering or get their cold shower and leave anyway. And then they have to start queuing all over. You can reduce those times and make the queues effecient by allowing the people to choose their matching queue in the first place

For point number 1 this is a golden opportunity to incorporate extra story line into the game. Just like when at lvl 10 some npc comes warn you that you need to go see the prophet there should be an npc at cp 300 that comes running to you asking that you have been called once more by the undaunted for a followup quest in their "Academy", a solo dungeon experience kind of like vma that simulates and tests each of the 3 roles in a number of rounds of increasing difficulty where in the end round you must do all sorts of typical dungeon mechanics on top of your core role in order to make it through, comparable with fights like vWGT inhibitor, vMHK archivist, vFL menagerie. Ranged interrupts, dodging aoe, boss specfic mechanics...the whole thing. At the end of passing the final round of your chosen role you get a fancy title like "Undaunted healer" and this previously greyed out role becomes selectable now in the "veteran DLC dungeon" group finder section. A character can choose to qualify for each role 1 at a time but it should be made tough enough that jack of all trades mostly fail the test just like in the fights I mentioned

Please consider these proposals

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_Finn
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Universe wrote: »

ZOS just need to stop releasing DLC dungeons or release just 1 per year.
There isn't much demand for it anyway and most players don't bother completing all of those dungeons.
I would prefer 2 story DLCs instead of 4 dungeons per year.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

1. Create a Tank / Heal / DPS test for DLC dungeons. Each character must take the test for each of the roles and pass to enable role selection.
2. The test may be started at 300 CP
3. Seperate DLC random que
4. Add new bonuses for Vet classic / Vet DLC que - Vet classic provides 100% 3 CP on purple completion for reward. - Vet DLC provides the same reward <Classic and DLC are both seperate rewards> for CP, but a bonus Motif from Motif based DLC.
ICP/WGT get 2K gold for the purple clear.

THIS ! This is exactly what I've been advocating for a long long while now and I'm glad I'm not the only one apparently.

Dear ZOS,

don't worry about how splitting the DLC dungeons off into their own new "veteran DLC random dungeon" section will split the pools and increase queuing times because it's already the case. People that shouldn't or prefer not to be there in the first place just instant leave upon entering or get their cold shower and leave anyway. And then they have to start queuing all over. You can reduce those times and make the queues effecient by allowing the people to choose their matching queue in the first place

For point number 1 this is a golden opportunity to incorporate extra story line into the game. Just like when at lvl 10 some npc comes warn you that you need to go see the prophet there should be an npc at cp 300 that comes running to you asking that you have been called once more by the undaunted for a followup quest in their "Academy", a solo dungeon experience kind of like vma that simulates and tests each of the 3 roles in a number of rounds of increasing difficulty where in the end round you must do all sorts of typical dungeon mechanics on top of your core role in order to make it through, comparable with fights like vWGT inhibitor, vMHK archivist, vFL menagerie. Ranged interrupts, dodging aoe, boss specfic mechanics...the whole thing. At the end of passing the final round of your chosen role you get a fancy title like "Undaunted healer" and this previously greyed out role becomes selectable now in the "veteran DLC dungeon" group finder section. A character can choose to qualify for each role 1 at a time but it should be made tough enough that jack of all trades mostly fail the test just like in the fights I mentioned

Please consider these proposals

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_Finn
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

The whole problem with "proving grounds" and better rewards for completing harder dungeons is that it doesn't address the root cause of this whole situation, which is that ZOS has taken it upon themselves to make dungeons a roadblock instead of trials, like other big MMOs. Honestly the quarterly dungeons should just be semi-annual trials, and everyone would be happy.

Putting in testing quests and increased rewards for the DLC is like ZOS admitting that their whole dungeon system has huge flaws and that their solution is to reward players for adapting to and overcoming this flawed system. It's putting a Band-Aid on the bullet hole instead of operating on it.

Again, I'd prefer any of these proposals over what we have now, but the fact is that the best, root-cause addressing solution is to rebalance all dungeons around a sub-DLC standard.

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Asking for normal DLC dungeons to be made easier is honestly an absurd request. The one-shots don't even really one-shot you just leave you with a little bit of health.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Right now, we're at the point where there are almost as many DLC dungeons as there are non-DLC. With plans in place to release 4 more DLC dungeons every year, it won't be long before the DLC dungeons outweigh the vanilla ones in the pool.

What were once an annoyance for ESO+ players just trying to complete a random are going to become a major roadblock. The fact of the matter is, these dungeons are interesting, mechanically-oriented, challenging, and fun....with the right group. Of veteran players.

To drive home my point above, newer players have no chance at these things. They were designed with experienced players in mind, and that's fine but Zenimax has done nothing to ensure that only players who are up for the challenge are completing them. Forget CP300, there should be a CP600 minimum for vet DLC dungeons. Normal should probably be CP300.

And sure, new players can bumble their way through, but I guarantee you not one of them will say they had a good time. Not one of them will say they preferred it over city of ash or darkshade caverns. They'll probably spend a few hours in there, which is ridiculous by modern MMO dungeon standards.

And I know the classic response here is "well, just queue for what you want, you don't have to use the random dungeon tool."

There are a few things wrong with this train of thought:

1) I'd imagine that many players only even do dungeons because of the daily random bonus. If Zenimax creates a situation in which a random queue only leads to a painful slog through a DLC dungeon, the total number of players queueing up for anything at all will decline sharply. I think we're already seeing this as more and more DLC dungeons are released.

2) If your tool has become unattractive to use because the content that is accessed by the tool is prohibitively difficult, then you've designed a bad tool or bad content. One of the two.

In short, if your solution is "well, just don't do that thing", then it's not a solution. It's a workaround. Workarounds need to be addressed at some point, and that goes beyond ESO or even videogames.

So, in this discussion, let's completely ignore the idea of just not using the tool. Let's assume the tool is vital for a healthy dungeon pool, as it may very well be.

Going back to the central issue then, how do we address this? How do we keep the dungeon-going populace healthy, reduce the already substantial pain that many newer and casual players are put through, and bolster the system to be prepared for all these DLC dungeons on the horizon? The core issue, as I see it, is that we've got all these dungeons, of ridiculously varying difficulty and length to complete, in the same pool.

And yeah, we can split up the pools to make things better, but there are also drawbacks to that proposition. The pool of players in each category shrinks compared to the previous state, and we're back to point #1 that I outlined above. Less players in a pool isn't a good thing, that just leads to longer times. And don't get me wrong, I'd rather see this happen than nothing at all, but there's a better way.

When you look at everything, and how there are countless threads even on the elite-dominated forums about the issues with DLC dungeons, the best, albeit most difficult to accomplish answer becomes clear - ZOS needs to rebalance the dungeons in this game.

There's really no way around it. It's absurd to have such a variance of difficulty in your dungeons for an MMO. Look at WoW. Look at SWTOR. Look at Rift. Guild wars 2 is a bad example, but my point is that we're talking about how to deal with this absurd system instead of addressing how absurd it is and trying to fix it.

Maybe the vanilla 1 dungeons are too easy, sure. Maybe those need to become a little more difficult. At the same time, the DLC dungeons need to come way, way down in difficulty to become digestible by the masses. And yes, I'm talking about both difficulties. You want truly hard content, you've got veteran trials. DLC dungeons are clearly a failed experiment at the point, I'm sure ZOS has heaps of data to back me up.

There is some median level of difficulty, higher than most vanilla dungeons but lower than DLC dungeons, where ALL dungeons need to rest at. I believe WoW did a massive balance pass / overhaul of their older dungeons when Cataclysm came out. This game desperately needs the same. If all the dungeons are approximately the same in terms of difficulty, and that difficulty is close-ish to "2" dungeons, most issues with the dungeon finder go away.

Apache_Kid wrote: »

pelle412 wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Asking for normal DLC dungeons to be made easier is honestly an absurd request. The one-shots don't even really one-shot you just leave you with a little bit of health.

In Moon Hunter Keep, the werewolf adds actually do one-shot DPS through block (on normal). That simply means you need to adapt your playstyle to it and dodge roll things that can kill you.

Good, didn't know that as I had only done MHK on vet but that's something DPS should be taught to do. Your tank always won't be able to grab aggro on everything right away. One-shots should happen in normal so people learn