The Dungeon Dilemma: What to do about DLC

karekiz · September 2018

iiYuki wrote: »

anyone who argues that "CP doesn't matter" or "level isn't everything" has obviously never been grouped with one or more players who really shouldn't be doing that content.

Also the fact CP usually equates gear.

A CP 170 player, probably doesn't have a decent 5/5/2 set, if at all. They just got out of 160. A CP 300 player is much more likely to have 160 gear sets. I mean somewhat decent ones.

Dungeon difficulty for the most part is ok, excluding Fang Lair Animal encounter imo. The new dungeons vastly lowered the difficulty compared to dragon bones, and thats ok. However, they don't need to nerf them further.

As long as encounters aren't mathematically impossible for average pugs of the correct CP value - it is ok.

BuddyAces · September 2018

LonePirate wrote: »

Let me give an Awesome to the OP. If ZOS continues releasing dungeons that are close to impossible for a group of new, low CP players to complete even on normal mode, then ZOS is queueing up their game for a death march. The vet versions of dungeons should be challenging but not impossible for a group of players around CP 300-400. Lower CP players should find vet dungeons very difficult while high CP players should still need to work to complete them but not bang their heads against unforgiving content. Limit the near impossible stuff to vet trials.

As such, the difficulty of both normal and vet versions for all DLC dungeons should be lowered while maybe slightly increasing the difficulty of the vet versions of non-DLC I (not II) dungeons.

The difficulty level is just fine. The dps creep has reached high enough levels that you can go through all the dungeons by doing one aoe and light attacking everything.

Merlin13KAGL · September 2018

You realize the ultimate goal is to progress your character skill, not lower the dungeon to match, right?

abigfishy · September 2018

You do dungeons for a few reasons:
Skill point the first time - once.
Farming Gear - only some only occasionally.
Pledges - two or three specific ones I try to do some of these if there is a good group in one of my guilds doing them and we can guarantee a fast run and do Vet HM on the hard ones.
Daily Random - EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Daily random is by far the most common reason to do dungeons and it should be a fun and player friendly system. Getting Scalecaller Peak as a daily random when it isn't the pledge usually results in it never getting finished as one player after another quits. I am not saying COAII is a walk in the park but too many of these DLCs are both too long and too hard for the average PUG. You simply need more experienced players with better gear to get through them in a reasonable time.

Simple solution>You can queue for specific dungeons the way they currently are but the DLCs only appear on your daily random chance at CP300.

AlnilamE · September 2018

abigfishy wrote: »

You do dungeons for a few reasons:
Skill point the first time - once.
Farming Gear - only some only occasionally.
Pledges - two or three specific ones I try to do some of these if there is a good group in one of my guilds doing them and we can guarantee a fast run and do Vet HM on the hard ones.
Daily Random - EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Daily random is by far the most common reason to do dungeons and it should be a fun and player friendly system. Getting Scalecaller Peak as a daily random when it isn't the pledge usually results in it never getting finished as one player after another quits. I am not saying COAII is a walk in the park but too many of these DLCs are both too long and too hard for the average PUG. You simply need more experienced players with better gear to get through them in a reasonable time.

Simple solution>You can queue for specific dungeons the way they currently are but the DLCs only appear on your daily random chance at CP300.

I believe this is already the case.

Jayman1000 · September 2018

You're not completely wrong. I just now considered doing a vet through daily, but then remembered I may get into of them DLC with a crew that are not up for it. Suddenly I felt alot more like simply playing half an hour of Portal 2, so that's what I did.

abigfishy · September 2018

@AlnilamE it is the case for Vet, not normal.

Grandesdar · September 2018

I will get lots of hate for this but some dungeons can be locked behind not just level or cp but achievement/skill line of undaunted and dps test for dd roles.

@iiYuki : there already is 300 cp cap for DLC veteran dungeons. That reduced the problems but now we have 400 cp+ dd who farmed dolmens mindlessly and spams light attacks, cant have more than 10k dps.

Facefister · September 2018

Where are those "10k dps guy who never dies to any mechanic" apologists?

iGuavaTH · September 2018

I wish for separate queues for base game and dlc dungeons, at least for vet.
I am to good for normal dungeons but not yet comfortable in all vet dungeons. I am not ready for doc vet dungeons. Queuing for random vet risking a doc dungeon means I don't queue at all. Haven't done a dungeon in months.

So, I would be very happy with separate queues to be able to progress in my own pace.
Don't mess with the difficulty, I will get there some day.

Orticia · September 2018

I am a casual player with little time. A DLC dungeon simply tends to be very hard for me, unless I got good and kind players (guildies often) with me. It's them that make it easier for me... I am not a bad player mind you. I can pull my weight and don't ask for carries. I am a decent player... not a good/leet one. And honestly I am fine with that. I don't expect pugs to be fine with that though in a DLC dungeon. So I simply do not buy any DLC dungeon, and I don't subscribe. This way I never bother myself and my pug members with a dungeon I can't complete/don't have time for/make harder then needed. I try to do the DLC dungeons atleast once on normal with guildies in free weekends just to have done them once.

Obviously this isn't a solution to the majority of players, and I also rarely pug as it is. But I do think this isn't quite what Zenimax is after.

Tan9oSuccka · September 2018

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

What to do about DLC dungeons? I can only speak for me. I avoid dungeons where the mechanics seem too convoluted/irritating to be enjoyable for me. So count me among the ESO+ subscribers who totally avoid DLC dungeons.

Well said. You summed it up perfectly.

Universe · September 2018

ZOS just need to stop releasing DLC dungeons or release just 1 per year.
There isn't much demand for it anyway and most players don't bother completing all of those dungeons.
I would prefer 2 story DLCs instead of 4 dungeons per year.

profundidob16_ESO · September 2018

karekiz wrote: »

1. Create a Tank / Heal / DPS test for DLC dungeons. Each character must take the test for each of the roles and pass to enable role selection.
2. The test may be started at 300 CP
3. Seperate DLC random que
4. Add new bonuses for Vet classic / Vet DLC que - Vet classic provides 100% 3 CP on purple completion for reward. - Vet DLC provides the same reward <Classic and DLC are both seperate rewards> for CP, but a bonus Motif from Motif based DLC.
ICP/WGT get 2K gold for the purple clear.

THIS ! This is exactly what I've been advocating for a long long while now and I'm glad I'm not the only one apparently.

Dear ZOS,

don't worry about how splitting the DLC dungeons off into their own new "veteran DLC random dungeon" section will split the pools and increase queuing times because it's already the case. People that shouldn't or prefer not to be there in the first place just instant leave upon entering or get their cold shower and leave anyway. And then they have to start queuing all over. You can reduce those times and make the queues effecient by allowing the people to choose their matching queue in the first place

For point number 1 this is a golden opportunity to incorporate extra story line into the game. Just like when at lvl 10 some npc comes warn you that you need to go see the prophet there should be an npc at cp 300 that comes running to you asking that you have been called once more by the undaunted for a followup quest in their "Academy", a solo dungeon experience kind of like vma that simulates and tests each of the 3 roles in a number of rounds of increasing difficulty where in the end round you must do all sorts of typical dungeon mechanics on top of your core role in order to make it through, comparable with fights like vWGT inhibitor, vMHK archivist, vFL menagerie. Ranged interrupts, dodging aoe, boss specfic mechanics...the whole thing. At the end of passing the final round of your chosen role you get a fancy title like "Undaunted healer" and this previously greyed out role becomes selectable now in the "veteran DLC dungeon" group finder section. A character can choose to qualify for each role 1 at a time but it should be made tough enough that jack of all trades mostly fail the test just like in the fights I mentioned

Please consider these proposals

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_Finn
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

MattT1988 · September 2018

Universe wrote: »

ZOS just need to stop releasing DLC dungeons or release just 1 per year.
There isn't much demand for it anyway and most players don't bother completing all of those dungeons.
I would prefer 2 story DLCs instead of 4 dungeons per year.

You’ve got some stats or numbers to back that statement up?

Crafts_Many_Boxes · September 2018

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

1. Create a Tank / Heal / DPS test for DLC dungeons. Each character must take the test for each of the roles and pass to enable role selection.
2. The test may be started at 300 CP
3. Seperate DLC random que
4. Add new bonuses for Vet classic / Vet DLC que - Vet classic provides 100% 3 CP on purple completion for reward. - Vet DLC provides the same reward <Classic and DLC are both seperate rewards> for CP, but a bonus Motif from Motif based DLC.
ICP/WGT get 2K gold for the purple clear.

THIS ! This is exactly what I've been advocating for a long long while now and I'm glad I'm not the only one apparently.

Dear ZOS,

don't worry about how splitting the DLC dungeons off into their own new "veteran DLC random dungeon" section will split the pools and increase queuing times because it's already the case. People that shouldn't or prefer not to be there in the first place just instant leave upon entering or get their cold shower and leave anyway. And then they have to start queuing all over. You can reduce those times and make the queues effecient by allowing the people to choose their matching queue in the first place

For point number 1 this is a golden opportunity to incorporate extra story line into the game. Just like when at lvl 10 some npc comes warn you that you need to go see the prophet there should be an npc at cp 300 that comes running to you asking that you have been called once more by the undaunted for a followup quest in their "Academy", a solo dungeon experience kind of like vma that simulates and tests each of the 3 roles in a number of rounds of increasing difficulty where in the end round you must do all sorts of typical dungeon mechanics on top of your core role in order to make it through, comparable with fights like vWGT inhibitor, vMHK archivist, vFL menagerie. Ranged interrupts, dodging aoe, boss specfic mechanics...the whole thing. At the end of passing the final round of your chosen role you get a fancy title like "Undaunted healer" and this previously greyed out role becomes selectable now in the "veteran DLC dungeon" group finder section. A character can choose to qualify for each role 1 at a time but it should be made tough enough that jack of all trades mostly fail the test just like in the fights I mentioned

Please consider these proposals

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_Finn
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

The whole problem with "proving grounds" and better rewards for completing harder dungeons is that it doesn't address the root cause of this whole situation, which is that ZOS has taken it upon themselves to make dungeons a roadblock instead of trials, like other big MMOs. Honestly the quarterly dungeons should just be semi-annual trials, and everyone would be happy.

Putting in testing quests and increased rewards for the DLC is like ZOS admitting that their whole dungeon system has huge flaws and that their solution is to reward players for adapting to and overcoming this flawed system. It's putting a Band-Aid on the bullet hole instead of operating on it.

Again, I'd prefer any of these proposals over what we have now, but the fact is that the best, root-cause addressing solution is to rebalance all dungeons around a sub-DLC standard.

pelle412 · September 2018

I disagree with some of the opinions raised here about DLC dungeons. When I queue for a random normal (I do sometimes want to play with random set of new faces) and a DLC dungeon pops it actually puts a smile on my face. As soon as we load into the dungeon the group chat has the usual groaning and some say they have never done it before. My response is usually, I'll show you how to do this dungeon, it's actually very well made and when we're done you won't regret it. If the group is open-minded that always comes true. At the end you have 3 happy players who really had a good time (plus myself). At times (not very often) you get some players who can't listen at all and then they would need to be replaced unfortunately.

On another note, lets say you yourself has never done that DLC dungeon or anyone else in the group. It can be a really fun adventure to face that challenge and beat it together. I'm just saying, look for the positives instead of the negatives with newer content.

DaveMoeDee · September 2018

Universe wrote: »

ZOS just need to stop releasing DLC dungeons or release just 1 per year.
There isn't much demand for it anyway and most players don't bother completing all of those dungeons.
I would prefer 2 story DLCs instead of 4 dungeons per year.

Demand is not the only consideration here. DLC dungeons take a lot less resources to develop. Removing the second drop doesn't mean that they release a second story DLC. It would be more likely that we would just see a QoL update quarter like when they introduced housing with no DLC included. It is likely that a significant enough percentage of people play the DLC through a sub that they maintain with or without a DLC drop, so spending more on development of a quarterly DLC might not pay off.

And even talking about demand, demand can't just be measured by interest. Demand has to be measured by how much people are going to spend. That is a complicated equation when there is both buying outright and subbing.

Edit: I'm sure they have a lot of data though on the overall revenue they get from people who also run dungeons. Hard to have on opinion on the business decision without seeing that.

DaveMoeDee · September 2018

pelle412 wrote: »

I disagree with some of the opinions raised here about DLC dungeons. When I queue for a random normal (I do sometimes want to play with random set of new faces) and a DLC dungeon pops it actually puts a smile on my face. As soon as we load into the dungeon the group chat has the usual groaning and some say they have never done it before. My response is usually, I'll show you how to do this dungeon, it's actually very well made and when we're done you won't regret it. If the group is open-minded that always comes true. At the end you have 3 happy players who really had a good time (plus myself). At times (not very often) you get some players who can't listen at all and then they would need to be replaced unfortunately.

On another note, lets say you yourself has never done that DLC dungeon or anyone else in the group. It can be a really fun adventure to face that challenge and beat it together. I'm just saying, look for the positives instead of the negatives with newer content.

I agree. It is fun trying the dungeons, even when we have a hard time. Sometimes individuals have to drop because they are clearly the weak link, but they leave on good terms because we tried and had fun together. On the other hand, sometimes I have limited time and just want my 100k and I'm bummed about getting a hard dungeon, but I would never want to be the kind of person who gets angry about little things like that.

Like IRL, the personalities of the people you do things with and your own personality mean more to having fun than the actual activity.

AlnilamE · September 2018

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

1. Create a Tank / Heal / DPS test for DLC dungeons. Each character must take the test for each of the roles and pass to enable role selection.
2. The test may be started at 300 CP
3. Seperate DLC random que
4. Add new bonuses for Vet classic / Vet DLC que - Vet classic provides 100% 3 CP on purple completion for reward. - Vet DLC provides the same reward <Classic and DLC are both seperate rewards> for CP, but a bonus Motif from Motif based DLC.
ICP/WGT get 2K gold for the purple clear.

THIS ! This is exactly what I've been advocating for a long long while now and I'm glad I'm not the only one apparently.

Dear ZOS,

don't worry about how splitting the DLC dungeons off into their own new "veteran DLC random dungeon" section will split the pools and increase queuing times because it's already the case. People that shouldn't or prefer not to be there in the first place just instant leave upon entering or get their cold shower and leave anyway. And then they have to start queuing all over. You can reduce those times and make the queues effecient by allowing the people to choose their matching queue in the first place

For point number 1 this is a golden opportunity to incorporate extra story line into the game. Just like when at lvl 10 some npc comes warn you that you need to go see the prophet there should be an npc at cp 300 that comes running to you asking that you have been called once more by the undaunted for a followup quest in their "Academy", a solo dungeon experience kind of like vma that simulates and tests each of the 3 roles in a number of rounds of increasing difficulty where in the end round you must do all sorts of typical dungeon mechanics on top of your core role in order to make it through, comparable with fights like vWGT inhibitor, vMHK archivist, vFL menagerie. Ranged interrupts, dodging aoe, boss specfic mechanics...the whole thing. At the end of passing the final round of your chosen role you get a fancy title like "Undaunted healer" and this previously greyed out role becomes selectable now in the "veteran DLC dungeon" group finder section. A character can choose to qualify for each role 1 at a time but it should be made tough enough that jack of all trades mostly fail the test just like in the fights I mentioned

Please consider these proposals

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_Finn
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

The whole problem with "proving grounds" and better rewards for completing harder dungeons is that it doesn't address the root cause of this whole situation, which is that ZOS has taken it upon themselves to make dungeons a roadblock instead of trials, like other big MMOs. Honestly the quarterly dungeons should just be semi-annual trials, and everyone would be happy.

Putting in testing quests and increased rewards for the DLC is like ZOS admitting that their whole dungeon system has huge flaws and that their solution is to reward players for adapting to and overcoming this flawed system. It's putting a Band-Aid on the bullet hole instead of operating on it.

Again, I'd prefer any of these proposals over what we have now, but the fact is that the best, root-cause addressing solution is to rebalance all dungeons around a sub-DLC standard.

I'm not sure why you see dungeons as a roadblock to anything, let alone trials. They are separate things. Dungeons are small-group oriented and can be pugged easily. Trials require more coordination and can either be done very fast (if you have a good group) or take an eternity if your group is not experienced.

Dungeons are easy to hop into when you have just an hour or so to play, while for trials, you either have to wait a long time to find a group or you have to be on at certain times for raids if you are in raiding guilds.

And if you think DLC dungeons are hard if your group has low DPS, then you are in for a treat if you get a low DPS trial group.

idk · September 2018

OPs observation isn’t totally correct. We are at the point where we have as many DLC dungeons as non DLC. Dungeons like FG I ans FG II are two different dungeons. Fifteen story lines and bosses.

I’ve the pledge giver for DLCs has has many on their rotation as the other two then a 4th pledge giver can be created. It’s very simple and doesn’t water anything down.

Apache_Kid · September 2018

Asking for normal DLC dungeons to be made easier is honestly an absurd request. The one-shots don't even really one-shot you just leave you with a little bit of health. I've only ran them on normal as opposed to vet a couple times and I was running falkreath on normal for the first time a couple days ago for a skill point on a random character and I was amazed as i watched my pugs stand right out in the open during a Domihaus shout and live through it. You don't even have to obey the mechanics.

As far as those of you saying that there is no demand for dungeon DLCs you are dead wrong. Some people like myself enjoy the dungeon DLCs more than any other DLC. If you actually go for the achievements they offer much more playtime than some crappy little zone like Hews Bane or the Clockwork city where I could finish all the quests and delves in a day or two. Have been going at the wolfhunter dungeons almost every night for a couple hours since they came out on Xbox NA and all we need is MoS HM and we have had a blast getting the rest of the achievements. Some story DLC zone i would've had 100% complete in the first week. Not as much value.

Dungeon DLCs are nice because they provide content for end-game players without having to put up with the hassle of organizing 11 others for the activity. There needs to be something for players who want a challenge but dont have the time to commit to a core raid team. And you know what's great about these dungeon DLCs? Any one of you who says they don't like them because they are too difficult, all you have to do is get better and find some friends and you can enjoy them like the rest of us and earn cool achievements. There is no gate except the one of your own skill that you put there yourself. Never stop wanting to improve.

Guppet · September 2018

AlnilamE wrote: »

abigfishy wrote: »

You do dungeons for a few reasons:
Skill point the first time - once.
Farming Gear - only some only occasionally.
Pledges - two or three specific ones I try to do some of these if there is a good group in one of my guilds doing them and we can guarantee a fast run and do Vet HM on the hard ones.
Daily Random - EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Daily random is by far the most common reason to do dungeons and it should be a fun and player friendly system. Getting Scalecaller Peak as a daily random when it isn't the pledge usually results in it never getting finished as one player after another quits. I am not saying COAII is a walk in the park but too many of these DLCs are both too long and too hard for the average PUG. You simply need more experienced players with better gear to get through them in a reasonable time.

Simple solution>You can queue for specific dungeons the way they currently are but the DLCs only appear on your daily random chance at CP300.

I believe this is already the case.

Nope it’s not. I got scale caller on random daily on my level 46 Wardon tank.

Luckily it’s an alt, so we did complete it (I like to level alts as actual tanks, let’s me see the good the bad and the ugly of groypfinder) but a newbie could just as easily get it from level 45 onwards.

pelle412 · September 2018

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Asking for normal DLC dungeons to be made easier is honestly an absurd request. The one-shots don't even really one-shot you just leave you with a little bit of health.

In Moon Hunter Keep, the werewolf adds actually do one-shot DPS through block (on normal). That simply means you need to adapt your playstyle to it and dodge roll things that can kill you.

Apache_Kid · September 2018

pelle412 wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Asking for normal DLC dungeons to be made easier is honestly an absurd request. The one-shots don't even really one-shot you just leave you with a little bit of health.

In Moon Hunter Keep, the werewolf adds actually do one-shot DPS through block (on normal). That simply means you need to adapt your playstyle to it and dodge roll things that can kill you.

Good, didn't know that as I had only done MHK on vet but that's something DPS should be taught to do. Your tank always won't be able to grab aggro on everything right away. One-shots should happen in normal so people learn

Wifeaggro13 · September 2018

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Right now, we're at the point where there are almost as many DLC dungeons as there are non-DLC. With plans in place to release 4 more DLC dungeons every year, it won't be long before the DLC dungeons outweigh the vanilla ones in the pool.

What were once an annoyance for ESO+ players just trying to complete a random are going to become a major roadblock. The fact of the matter is, these dungeons are interesting, mechanically-oriented, challenging, and fun....with the right group. Of veteran players.

To drive home my point above, newer players have no chance at these things. They were designed with experienced players in mind, and that's fine but Zenimax has done nothing to ensure that only players who are up for the challenge are completing them. Forget CP300, there should be a CP600 minimum for vet DLC dungeons. Normal should probably be CP300.

And sure, new players can bumble their way through, but I guarantee you not one of them will say they had a good time. Not one of them will say they preferred it over city of ash or darkshade caverns. They'll probably spend a few hours in there, which is ridiculous by modern MMO dungeon standards.

And I know the classic response here is "well, just queue for what you want, you don't have to use the random dungeon tool."

There are a few things wrong with this train of thought:

1) I'd imagine that many players only even do dungeons because of the daily random bonus. If Zenimax creates a situation in which a random queue only leads to a painful slog through a DLC dungeon, the total number of players queueing up for anything at all will decline sharply. I think we're already seeing this as more and more DLC dungeons are released.

2) If your tool has become unattractive to use because the content that is accessed by the tool is prohibitively difficult, then you've designed a bad tool or bad content. One of the two.

In short, if your solution is "well, just don't do that thing", then it's not a solution. It's a workaround. Workarounds need to be addressed at some point, and that goes beyond ESO or even videogames.

So, in this discussion, let's completely ignore the idea of just not using the tool. Let's assume the tool is vital for a healthy dungeon pool, as it may very well be.

Going back to the central issue then, how do we address this? How do we keep the dungeon-going populace healthy, reduce the already substantial pain that many newer and casual players are put through, and bolster the system to be prepared for all these DLC dungeons on the horizon? The core issue, as I see it, is that we've got all these dungeons, of ridiculously varying difficulty and length to complete, in the same pool.

And yeah, we can split up the pools to make things better, but there are also drawbacks to that proposition. The pool of players in each category shrinks compared to the previous state, and we're back to point #1 that I outlined above. Less players in a pool isn't a good thing, that just leads to longer times. And don't get me wrong, I'd rather see this happen than nothing at all, but there's a better way.

When you look at everything, and how there are countless threads even on the elite-dominated forums about the issues with DLC dungeons, the best, albeit most difficult to accomplish answer becomes clear - ZOS needs to rebalance the dungeons in this game.

There's really no way around it. It's absurd to have such a variance of difficulty in your dungeons for an MMO. Look at WoW. Look at SWTOR. Look at Rift. Guild wars 2 is a bad example, but my point is that we're talking about how to deal with this absurd system instead of addressing how absurd it is and trying to fix it.

Maybe the vanilla 1 dungeons are too easy, sure. Maybe those need to become a little more difficult. At the same time, the DLC dungeons need to come way, way down in difficulty to become digestible by the masses. And yes, I'm talking about both difficulties. You want truly hard content, you've got veteran trials. DLC dungeons are clearly a failed experiment at the point, I'm sure ZOS has heaps of data to back me up.

There is some median level of difficulty, higher than most vanilla dungeons but lower than DLC dungeons, where ALL dungeons need to rest at. I believe WoW did a massive balance pass / overhaul of their older dungeons when Cataclysm came out. This game desperately needs the same. If all the dungeons are approximately the same in terms of difficulty, and that difficulty is close-ish to "2" dungeons, most issues with the dungeon finder go away.

OP your issue that dlc dungeons are hard or that they are not free? As new DLC dungeons are added the old ones are nerfed to easy mode. Take a gander at Coh,ICP, Coa and the like those were post launch dungeons they are now considered vanilla easy mode. They were near incompletable for fresh plugged fresh to VR content. But I few hours of trying you learned mechanics and proper set ups for gear. If your struggling with anything after the hist you should be , anything before is a L2P issue. And for the record trials are for large group expierence truthfully if you track the data the churn population really does not care about anything other then light attacking their way through story and then complains that end game gear is not given to them in the normal dungeons .then they leave until the next easy mode leveling content is released that actually has no levels in it.get in a guild that does content make friends watch some YouTube and you will be successful,

Crafts_Many_Boxes · September 2018

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Asking for normal DLC dungeons to be made easier is honestly an absurd request. The one-shots don't even really one-shot you just leave you with a little bit of health. I've only ran them on normal as opposed to vet a couple times and I was running falkreath on normal for the first time a couple days ago for a skill point on a random character and I was amazed as i watched my pugs stand right out in the open during a Domihaus shout and live through it. You don't even have to obey the mechanics.

As far as those of you saying that there is no demand for dungeon DLCs you are dead wrong. Some people like myself enjoy the dungeon DLCs more than any other DLC. If you actually go for the achievements they offer much more playtime than some crappy little zone like Hews Bane or the Clockwork city where I could finish all the quests and delves in a day or two. Have been going at the wolfhunter dungeons almost every night for a couple hours since they came out on Xbox NA and all we need is MoS HM and we have had a blast getting the rest of the achievements. Some story DLC zone i would've had 100% complete in the first week. Not as much value.

Dungeon DLCs are nice because they provide content for end-game players without having to put up with the hassle of organizing 11 others for the activity. There needs to be something for players who want a challenge but dont have the time to commit to a core raid team. And you know what's great about these dungeon DLCs? Any one of you who says they don't like them because they are too difficult, all you have to do is get better and find some friends and you can enjoy them like the rest of us and earn cool achievements. There is no gate except the one of your own skill that you put there yourself. Never stop wanting to improve.

This is the type of "gotta pull yourself up by those bootstraps, git gud kid" answer that I was expecting to see, and have seen a lot in this thread.

1) Your example with Falkreath is a bad one. Domihaus is probably the least challenging boss in there, for the reason you just outlined. The spectre / bone golem boss, on the other hand, is far more challenging and causes groups to disband far more often, I assure you.

2) You even say it yourself: "some people". Many, many more people do not enjoy this system. You're part of the vocal minority that the devs listen to, unfortunately.

3) It's nice content that a large portion of players will never do. I think dungeons should be accessible by the majority of the playerbase without having to play on the level of the hardcores. Crazy thought, right? You know who happens to agree with me? Blizzard entertainment. Trion Worlds. Pretty much every other western major developer with an MMO on the market.

But hey, maybe you can go hang out with the Wildstar devs and their 10 players left in that game. They adhere to your mentality. I'm trying to prevent this game from becoming the next Wildstar by slamming these brick walls into players expecting fun, only somewhat challenging content. Keep the highest level of difficulty in the trials, and rebalance your content to reflect that mentality, that's all I'm saying.

And I get it: DLC dungeons are really nice for the hardcore players who can complete them reliably with their groups of friends who have the same mentality. And the groups are easier to form than trials, sure. The problem is, you're shafting the other players by having your cake. And the other players (again I have no data here) I would imagine outnumber you by quite a bit.

It takes a long time for a player to "git gud" even if they're making a conscious effort and playing on a regular basis. Combat in this game is very difficult compared to other MMOs. I was VERY, VERY good in rift, which is mechanically very similar to WoW. I raided with the 9th best guild NA two years ago (granted the game was pretty steeply in decline by then, but still). I can still only do about 30k dps with my best character in this game. And I've been playing consistently for 2 years now. It's not realistic to just address this problem by saying "well git gud scrubs". We need something more substantial and less reliant on players becoming veterans overnight.

profundidob16_ESO · September 2018

Apache_Kid wrote: »

pelle412 wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Asking for normal DLC dungeons to be made easier is honestly an absurd request. The one-shots don't even really one-shot you just leave you with a little bit of health.

In Moon Hunter Keep, the werewolf adds actually do one-shot DPS through block (on normal). That simply means you need to adapt your playstyle to it and dodge roll things that can kill you.

Good, didn't know that as I had only done MHK on vet but that's something DPS should be taught to do. Your tank always won't be able to grab aggro on everything right away. One-shots should happen in normal so people learn

more even, here only 1 person has to dodge something once in a while. This prepares them nicely though for things like for instance vMOS HM where all 4 group members at the same time must dodgeroll a specific mechanic that keeps coming back the whole fight at regular intervals. Those who fail the dodge basically die except when they're a proper tank and even then it's risky...

The point is that people expecting to flash through these newer DLC dungeons (even on normal !) without having to learn simple things like dodgerolling, range interrupting, avoid aoe, etc...is not an encouraged playstyle to say the least...

I cannot believe that is so much to ask of the average ESO player. When I was 12 years old we were doing alot more than that when playing Super Mario Bros on the Super Nintendo ! =P

Wifeaggro13 · September 2018

Universe wrote: »

ZOS just need to stop releasing DLC dungeons or release just 1 per year.
There isn't much demand for it anyway and most players don't bother completing all of those dungeons.
I would prefer 2 story DLCs instead of 4 dungeons per year.

I really hope this game does a quick death over the next 2 years. I came to play an MMO and 4 years later I'm playing a mediocre single player rpg with multiplayer options

Apache_Kid · September 2018

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Asking for normal DLC dungeons to be made easier is honestly an absurd request. The one-shots don't even really one-shot you just leave you with a little bit of health. I've only ran them on normal as opposed to vet a couple times and I was running falkreath on normal for the first time a couple days ago for a skill point on a random character and I was amazed as i watched my pugs stand right out in the open during a Domihaus shout and live through it. You don't even have to obey the mechanics.

As far as those of you saying that there is no demand for dungeon DLCs you are dead wrong. Some people like myself enjoy the dungeon DLCs more than any other DLC. If you actually go for the achievements they offer much more playtime than some crappy little zone like Hews Bane or the Clockwork city where I could finish all the quests and delves in a day or two. Have been going at the wolfhunter dungeons almost every night for a couple hours since they came out on Xbox NA and all we need is MoS HM and we have had a blast getting the rest of the achievements. Some story DLC zone i would've had 100% complete in the first week. Not as much value.

Dungeon DLCs are nice because they provide content for end-game players without having to put up with the hassle of organizing 11 others for the activity. There needs to be something for players who want a challenge but dont have the time to commit to a core raid team. And you know what's great about these dungeon DLCs? Any one of you who says they don't like them because they are too difficult, all you have to do is get better and find some friends and you can enjoy them like the rest of us and earn cool achievements. There is no gate except the one of your own skill that you put there yourself. Never stop wanting to improve.

This is the type of "gotta pull yourself up by those bootstraps, git gud kid" answer that I was expecting to see, and have seen a lot in this thread.

1) Your example with Falkreath is a bad one. Domihaus is probably the least challenging boss in there, for the reason you just outlined. The spectre / bone golem boss, on the other hand, is far more challenging and causes groups to disband far more often, I assure you.

2) You even say it yourself: "some people". Many, many more people do not enjoy this system. You're part of the vocal minority that the devs listen to, unfortunately.

3) It's nice content that a large portion of players will never do. I think dungeons should be accessible by the majority of the playerbase without having to play on the level of the hardcores. Crazy thought, right? You know who happens to agree with me? Blizzard entertainment. Trion Worlds. Pretty much every other western major developer with an MMO on the market.

But hey, maybe you can go hang out with the Wildstar devs and their 10 players left in that game. They adhere to your mentality. I'm trying to prevent this game from becoming the next Wildstar by slamming these brick walls into players expecting fun, only somewhat challenging content. Keep the highest level of difficulty in the trials, and rebalance your content to reflect that mentality, that's all I'm saying.

And I get it: DLC dungeons are really nice for the hardcore players who can complete them reliably with their groups of friends who have the same mentality. And the groups are easier to form than trials, sure. The problem is, you're shafting the other players by having your cake. And the other players (again I have no data here) I would imagine outnumber you by quite a bit.

It takes a long time for a player to "git gud" even if they're making a conscious effort and playing on a regular basis. Combat in this game is very difficult compared to other MMOs. I was VERY, VERY good in rift, which is mechanically very similar to WoW. I raided with the 9th best guild NA two years ago (granted the game was pretty steeply in decline by then, but still). I can still only do about 30k dps with my best character in this game. And I've been playing consistently for 2 years now. It's not realistic to just address this problem by saying "well git gud scrubs". We need something more substantial and less reliant on players becoming veterans overnight.

LOL I'm shafting others for enjoying the content Zos chooses to give me? Okay. Us end-game players don't come on the forums to whine when we get a crappy little zone DLC with 20 quests that you can finish in a night and yet we get a few dungeons a year and the casuals lose their minds.

And my example is a good one because I was just trying to demonstrate that one shots on normal are not actually one shots hence the players don't learn anything. The normals aren't difficult enough to prepare players for vet which is the whole issue.

There needs to be difficult 4-person content. Not everyone has the time for a raid core. Gating the difficult content behind trials is a horrible idea. We already have exactly what you are asking for, a normal mode of the dungeon that is stupid easy with a minimal amount of dps and awareness. There does not need to be an easier mode.