Ranged vs meele (discussion)

Vesper_BR · September 2018

Hello there,

I'm opening a discussion about what can be done to balance the combat regarding meele combat vs ranged combat, PvP and pve wise.

I think that many suggestions can come from this, but one thing that has come to my mind is that we could possibly have some kind of adjustments to damage when it comes to ranged atacks, like making them have less (or more) damage in certain ranges, making the option of meele combat more viable in some trials and PvP, but at the same time, forcing ranged dps to be ranged to stay competitive.

Let's say like all skills do 15% less damage when it's closer than half of it's range. And so on. And before you say, all skill should have damages adjusted before that, but meele already have the disadvantage of "not" causing any damage at all in ranged situations.

It would change mechanics that force players to stay ranged because of safety and bring all meele back to end game dps scenarios. Because even thou one Stam toon having like 50k in a dummy parse, he is at disadvantage when some other ranged dps can effectively put like 40k dps constantly during mechanics and he can't because one shot mechanics at meele ranged don't permit it. (Just exemplifying numbers).

And for PvP side, it would encourage players that fight meele characters to stay pressuring ranged ones by staying close. Ranged already have the safety of getting easy kills without even engaging and having to take damage in combat.

It's just a discussion, just to bring some ideas and other stuff to the table. Alot of great ideas came from naive posts as this one.

I have a lot of experience in pve and PvP scenario, and was talking about this yesterday with some friends, this idea come to our minds and I decided to Share with u guys.
What you guys think? Try to not be rude if u can pls. It's not a "Nerf this" or "buff that" kind of post.

(Sorry if I wrote something wrong, English is not my main and I'm in Mobile)

starkerealm · September 2018

Worth remembering that the bow already does more damage at long range. It's in the passives. So, that's a thing.

For staves, a penalty to damage would be inappropriate, because there is no weapon based, magicka melee options.

Vesper_BR · September 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

Worth remembering that the bow already does more damage at long range. It's in the passives. So, that's a thing.

For staves, a penalty to damage would be inappropriate, because there is no weapon based, magicka melee options.

Of course, but it already brings to the table that we still need some viable meele choice for mag meele dps.
Mag dks suffer alot from this, because even putting high DPS numbers, they cant do much when the content and the way we play, makes it more viable to stay at range.
Take vas for example, it's much more easier to DPS saint olms and second boss at range because u have more time to react to the spark damage that come from the boss.

And what I proposed was to ranged skills, not only staves. But as you remembered, we still lack options to mag meele combat.

Lord-Otto · September 2018

For PvE, we simply need bosses with better design. Bosses that actually do something and not have lame oneshot mechanics.

For PvP, ranged combat is a meme. There is none, with all those absurd gapclosers.

RaptorRodeoGod · September 2018

From my perspective (StamSorc main), ranged magicka builds have everything; high damage, high survivability, and time to react to mechanics. Melee everything has damage that's similar to the ranged magicka builds, lower survivability, and almost no time to react to mechanics. Ranged stamina has lower damage and lower survivability, but they still have time to react to mechanics.

Ranged magicka should be brought in line with ranged stamina in terms of damage and survivability.

Melee everything, in my opinion, should be given higher damage than ranged everything. What's the point of risking getting in melee range if there's no reward? Either that or give melee more survivability than ranged so that they can at least stay in melee range, and keep the damage the same.

Aedaryl · September 2018

No.

In PvP you don't choose your range as a staff user, the ennemy does.

Having 15% less damage on already underperforming ranged class in PvP because stamina can literally outrun and always being in melee range is just a straigh no.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

Responding to the idea of giving melee specs higher damage, I'd say that it's not only raw damage is the problem. New content design brought to the surface the glaring issues with mobility of melee (speaking stamina here) damage itself. Stamina's damage structure is too dependent on too few sets - in a parse, Endless Hail (thanks to vMA bow) and Relequen would be lingering on top. First is a tiny spot with 5-meter radius and with damage ramping up towards the end of 10-second duration, and in latest content, everything just walks/runs/teleports out of it. Second requires constant attacking to keep up stacks with a minimum of 20-second ramp-up time, so when mechanic hits, such as target getting temporarily invincible (simplest example is DC2), stacks would fall off. Ranged magicka, on the other hand, gets light attacks as their primary source of damage, easily retargetable and without any build-up required if boss moves (at most would have to reapply Blockade to amplify them, which is a hefty 12x18m AoE by itself). Simply buffing melee damage won't do much good as long as content and set design stays melee-hostile.

keevil111 · September 2018

I understand what you're getting at, but imagine the game trying to constantly calculate the range to calculate the damage. Another source of lag IMO. lol

Thorstienn · September 2018

This touches on a thought I have had for balancing stam/mag eta for a while. But it is the opposite idea!
Something I've always hated in MMOs is the "bow attacks deal MORE damage at max range". All damage scaling should be the opposite; risk/reward.
Fight at max range with no risk: your enemy gets a dissipated spell, or a flesh wound from an arrow they could of caught from the air.
Get up close and feel the reward: your enemy takes a full blown fire ball to the face!, or has an arrow go right through them! Only downside, you might get cut in half by that axe!
I would say the way damage is "currently" mag DPS will get lowered from Max as they move away, and Bow would just have their passive reversed. Of course scaling could change to even it out either way.
Just my thinking on the subject though.

Kanar · September 2018

It's more an issue of mechanics that are hostile to melee. With CWC the devs decided that magicka needs more of a role in trial and dungeon content so they created AS and dragonbones dungeons to favor magicka; at the second time they looked into buffing magicka DPS in summerset. With all that stuff taken together, stam just doesn't have a role in the new range-oriented trials. Many older dungeons and new ones have mechanics that severely cripple melee damage.

We need more equitable boss mechanics that don't punish melee as harshly.

AcadianPaladin · September 2018

I run a bow/bow stamsorc who mostly runs solo and, as said above, you do not choose your range after the fight begins - the boss does. Yes, I like to open with an impressive range 'burst', but that quickly evaporates since over half of my sustained damage comes from keeping the boss in my dual killing zone of Endless Hail/Caltrops. Therefore, I have to 'tank' the boss myself so he stays in my killing zone. This means survivability is important (Surge + Hurricane, block/bash, slide out of red).

My concern is that bow/bow solo vs bosses is already plenty of challenge. Don't make my bow weaker or stronger based on my range. I spend plenty of time at all ranges. And don't penalize archers who don't take the easier path (DW/bow meta).

RavenSworn · September 2018

It's the fights, not whether melee should have more damage or ranged have more damage. Its all about the mechanics.

There's many other games that has interesting boss fights that requires both the use of melee and ranged dps. Check out the fights from the old TSW dungeons. Those are what I call fantastic mechanics. Even dungeons has phases, the need to move together... The closest boss fights that I can think off in eso are RoM or Falk skelli boss. These are the type of fights that needs to be incorporated into trials.

Check out Polaris last boss fight, or Ankh last boss. Or Hellfire Citadel. Fantastic bosses all around from tsw. Those are what I call balanced mechanics.

Galarthor · September 2018

Vesper_BR wrote: »

Hello there,
I think that many suggestions can come from this, but one thing that has come to my mind is that we could possibly have some kind of adjustments to damage when it comes to ranged atacks, like making them have less (or more) damage in certain ranges, making the option of meele combat more viable in some trials and PvP, but at the same time, forcing ranged dps to be ranged to stay competitive.

This right there is the problem with your suggestion. It is literally impossible to keep enemy players at range due to the imbalance between gap closers and gap openers (and the lack thereof) and the high speeds of stamina builds combined with their root-, slow-, and in many cases stunn-immunity. As a result pretty much all PvP fights are fought at melee range - except if it is ranged VS ranged.

If you wanted to implement your suggestion and retain some form of balance between range and melee as well as stamina and magicka you'd first have to completely overhaul the gap-opener&gap-closer system as well as the CC (stun,root,slow) system.

Your current suggestion would also favor ranged builds in PvE and melee builds in PvP - which is already the case. That means that the already existing imbalance will only become bigger. If you want avoid that you'd have to rework the damage of all abilities individually. And how do you plan to treat DoTs? The Sorc Curse? Templar Beam? Will they deal damage based on the distance when the attack was initiated or based on the distance when they tick?

I don't dislike your idea in general, but as stated it would require major overhaul in many areas. And I doubt ZOS will do that as it only complicates balancing the classes and weapons.
And how do you plan to treat DoTs? The Sorc Curse? Templar Beam? Will they deal damage based on the distance when the attack was initiated or based on the distance when they tick?

ictopbasli · September 2018

They are always beating me at the close fights so I decided to create a Archer and Sorcerer character. Both are doing amazing job at Cyrodiil.

Drakkdjinn · September 2018

Nerf Swift, remove CP from pvp; voila problems solved.

Will it happen? Nope both ranged and melee love their cheese too much to adapt.

Only option given the above is equip Swift yourself or play no CP.