Any Magden Dueling builds? [no pet]

IAVITNI · September 2018

Title. Been trying to make one that can compete with mag sorc and magblade. I can fight everybody else but I can't even pressure the other 2. Only time I win is if I am significantly better than the mag sorc/blade. Obviously not looking to dethrone the meta, but at least put up enough of a fight. Right now my sustain, damage and survival are all lacking. Not to sure which way I want to move and because I don't play as often I am low on transmutation stones.

Any suggestions?

Running: Argoniain-Tri-Stat/Witch Mother-Allicance Draught/Tripots-Mage Mundus
1 domi
1 Nightflame
5 necro
3 Jorvulds guidance
Master Fire Destro-Infused with Restore Mag
Jorvuld Resto-Infused weapon glyph

Destro Bar--Reach, Fletcher/Gripping Shards, Harness/Dampen, Birds, Shalks [Northern Storm]
Resto Bar-Artic Blast/Living Trellis, Ice Fortress, Healing Ward, netch, Bird of Prey [Northern Storm]

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=68391

Notes:

Trying to figure out a back bar set to use in conjunction with Master Destro I know Lich is BiS but I run that on my mag sorc (main) and I dislike the idea of sharing sets or farming for doubles.
Jorvulds > Seducer in terms of my specific backbar sustain wise by about 12 magicka/s assuming I don't overcast buffs with added benefit of longer offensive intervals
Was originally meant to be a healer, hence Argonian. Will switch if ABSOLUTELY necessary
Healing Ward is used more to shield stack than actually heal. can't decide if Arctic Blast applies Chilled enough
debating usefulness of Master Destro if Birds are slotted.
I am aware of a few more effective builds but I would like feedback before I invest any further as I have 14 characters and my playtime has dropped significantly lately, (low funds)

Enkil · September 2018

I’d say:
Need Crystallized shield on main bar. Fills Ult fast and short duration, freq recast necessitates front bar.
Change Northern storm to permafrost for better cc
Healing thicket on back bar for fighting vs ranged opponent & versatility
No need of rest staff on warden, can use melee like 2h for poisons, or another dest staff.

Adenoma · September 2018

Best dueling setup I’ve encountefed is 5x necro, 5x Lich back bar with infused master’s fire staff and disease (or shock glyph). Infused works out to be more damage than nirn if you’re light attack weaving and your shields will scale off of Max Magicka anyway. Monster set is your choice - but skoria is a reasonable option, but doesn’t have too many means of triggering. Monster-wise I would consider thurvokuhn, shadowrend, blood spawn, or skoria wih a preference for thurvokuhn.

Imo, you can setup vicious burst combos with elemental weapon (and this is why I favor using a disease glyph if you aren’t using corrupting pollen). Keep DOT pressure with burning and fetcherflies.

If you’re committed to no pet (most dueling allows one), then I would probably go with ice comet and resto ult.

The bear and corrupting pollen are what make Magden a powerful duelist - I wouldn’t commit to no pet unless you absolutely must. Against non-shield builds running corrupting pollen with thurvokuhn makes for really, really compelling area of denial. They can come near you, but good god they don’t want to.

IAVITNI · September 2018

Enkil wrote: »

I’d say:
Need Crystallized shield on main bar. Fills Ult fast and short duration, freq recast necessitates front bar.
Change Northern storm to permafrost for better cc
Healing thicket on back bar for fighting vs ranged opponent & versatility
No need of rest staff on warden, can use melee like 2h for poisons, or another dest staff.

I found Crystallized to not be worth the slot. Vines just performed better overall although I haven't tried it on frontbar on magden. I'll give it a go.

Northern is for the 8% magicka, I like on demand CC, although if front bar Crystallized pans out I may see if I can drop Reach all together.

No defensive ultimates in dueling builds unfortunately unless they have damage components (i.e. Bats, Sweeps, Atro etc.)

I tried running without Healing Ward before and I found my survivability was just too low in a pinch. If I ever got low there was almost no way to recover. I feel magden is built around a lot of HoTs with mirco burst heals, and I have yet to properly explore that playstyle. What would a typical recovery rotation look like?

DeadlyRecluse · September 2018

If you are specifically looking to go head-to-head with mag sorcs and magblades, it's hard to argue that crystallized/shimmering shield isn't an MvP skill.

It won't necessarily win fights, but it'll stop you from losing them. Lots of projectiles in those matchups.

IAVITNI · September 2018

Adenoma wrote: »

Best dueling setup I’ve encountefed is 5x necro, 5x Lich back bar with infused master’s fire staff and disease (or shock glyph). Infused works out to be more damage than nirn if you’re light attack weaving and your shields will scale off of Max Magicka anyway. Monster set is your choice - but skoria is a reasonable option, but doesn’t have too many means of triggering. Monster-wise I would consider thurvokuhn, shadowrend, blood spawn, or skoria wih a preference for thurvokuhn.

Imo, you can setup vicious burst combos with elemental weapon (and this is why I favor using a disease glyph if you aren’t using corrupting pollen). Keep DOT pressure with burning and fetcherflies.

If you’re committed to no pet (most dueling allows one), then I would probably go with ice comet and resto ult.

The bear and corrupting pollen are what make Magden a powerful duelist - I wouldn’t commit to no pet unless you absolutely must. Against non-shield builds running corrupting pollen with thurvokuhn makes for really, really compelling area of denial. They can come near you, but good god they don’t want to.

Elemental seems like a solid choice to up my burst. The added utility would also go a long way.

Currently running magicka return because I feel that my sustain requires too many heavy attacks without it.Currently at 1.7 without pots with Tri food I believe. Is this a L2P issue?

On that note, what does a typical offensive rotation look like? I feel I'm over extending resulting in an overall DPS loss and increased resource consumption due to excessive healing. Right now I [try to] Fletcher-Shalks-Bird-Clench-Bird-Bird.

I mained a dw magsorc forever so spammables cause issues for me when I start a new class as I get fixated on casting them. Took a while for me to learn Jabs/Lash offensive windows.

As for monster helms, Shadow rend is interesting. How necessary is Netch? I can get Major Sorcery via pots but I'm stacking max mag anyways so i question the value of Major Sorcery all together. It does make a noticeable difference in terms of sustain, damage and even the little purge, just not sure if it's worth the slot. I'd like Thurvokuhn as well but i struggle most against mag sorcs and mag blades, so it's kind of a wash. Blood Spawn or Shadow would be my top choices, Maybe Grothdar if I run Gripping Shards.

Adenoma · September 2018

Yeah, you have to use shimmering shield - if only just for frequent burst combos. I meant to say with the master’s Destro you can set up elemental weapon burst combo where you can go beetles-weapon-reach and between the infused disease glyph pressure that becomes quite hard to avoid. Elemental weapon has a subtle animation and adds a good chunk that most people tend not to avoid because it’s added onto the light attack. Add in meteor to hit them right when they get the flame reach CC.

It’s unusual to hear about the requirement no defensive ults, I know that a lot of folks just think it’s poor taste to only pop resto ult or something.

Most duels these days seem to allow a single targetable/nontargetable pet. So something like shadowrend and bear isn’t okay, but just the bear is.

IAVITNI · September 2018

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

If you are specifically looking to go head-to-head with mag sorcs and magblades, it's hard to argue that crystallized/shimmering shield isn't an MvP skill.

It won't necessarily win fights, but it'll stop you from losing them. Lots of projectiles in those matchups.

Ya i realized the folly in my statement. I "felt" that it isn't worth the slot but I'm also unfamiliar with magden rotation. I probably disliked Crystal since I was messing up rotations and needed a more forgiving setup.

If I run Crystal, I could probably switch harness to Dampen.

Only problem is I would need to give up Gripping Shards, and it's just so good for zoning and disruption. I'd like to drop Bird of Prey but the speed meta makes it almost necessary to aim Shulks.

IAVITNI · September 2018

Adenoma wrote: »

Yeah, you have to use shimmering shield - if only just for frequent burst combos. I meant to say with the master’s Destro you can set up elemental weapon burst combo where you can go beetles-weapon-reach and between the infused disease glyph pressure that becomes quite hard to avoid. Elemental weapon has a subtle animation and adds a good chunk that most people tend not to avoid because it’s added onto the light attack. Add in meteor to hit them right when they get the flame reach CC.

It’s unusual to hear about the requirement no defensive ults, I know that a lot of folks just think it’s poor taste to only pop resto ult or something.

Most duels these days seem to allow a single targetable/nontargetable pet. So something like shadowrend and bear isn’t okay, but just the bear is.

Ya I'll try Shimmering, seems to be the optimal change. Thoughts on fire v lightning?

The defensive ulti is a console thing.

*****Disclaimer: the following is a personal opinion and one that is shared within my particular community

A lot of people crutch on defensive ultimates and they are technically unnecessary since they prolong duels more than anything. A proper duel build should be able to survive. The only time I would validate a defensive ulti in a duel is if it's used in order to go full offensive. Unfortunately, more often than not, the defensive ultimates are spammed to compensate for inability to turn. So Offensive defensive ultimates are ok. Defensive defensive ultimates are not. However, because the latter is so prevalent, they are just banned. The guilds I'm looking at are also moving to Julianos/Hunding/Seducer/Shackle only sets. No complete monster sets and willpower/agility jewellery.

DeadlyRecluse · September 2018

IAVITNI wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

If you are specifically looking to go head-to-head with mag sorcs and magblades, it's hard to argue that crystallized/shimmering shield isn't an MvP skill.

It won't necessarily win fights, but it'll stop you from losing them. Lots of projectiles in those matchups.

Ya i realized the folly in my statement. I "felt" that it isn't worth the slot but I'm also unfamiliar with magden rotation. I probably disliked Crystal since I was messing up rotations and needed a more forgiving setup.

If I run Crystal, I could probably switch harness to Dampen.

Only problem is I would need to give up Gripping Shards, and it's just so good for zoning and disruption. I'd like to drop Bird of Prey but the speed meta makes it almost necessary to aim Shulks.

I should say I don't really play magWarden (I have one, but I'm not super psyched on it), but do you find gripping shards useful in duels, specifically? It seems like it's more useful in open world/1vX and not super essential in Duels, especially on a ranged build and considering specifically ranged opponents (sorcs and Nbs)

Lexxypwns · September 2018

If it’s strictly for dueling then both High Elf and Dark Elf are superior to Argonian, imo.

IAVITNI · September 2018

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

If you are specifically looking to go head-to-head with mag sorcs and magblades, it's hard to argue that crystallized/shimmering shield isn't an MvP skill.

It won't necessarily win fights, but it'll stop you from losing them. Lots of projectiles in those matchups.

Ya i realized the folly in my statement. I "felt" that it isn't worth the slot but I'm also unfamiliar with magden rotation. I probably disliked Crystal since I was messing up rotations and needed a more forgiving setup.

If I run Crystal, I could probably switch harness to Dampen.

Only problem is I would need to give up Gripping Shards, and it's just so good for zoning and disruption. I'd like to drop Bird of Prey but the speed meta makes it almost necessary to aim Shulks.

I should say I don't really play magWarden (I have one, but I'm not super psyched on it), but do you find gripping shards useful in duels, specifically? It seems like it's more useful in open world/1vX and not super essential in Duels, especially on a ranged build and considering specifically ranged opponents (sorcs and Nbs)

Well I wouldn't call myself good at magden. Haven't pulled off any worthwhile Xs and I can't even pressure good duelists consistently if they are on a magblade or magsorc. I think I've only beaten people I am significantly better than (as a player) on my magden. Anyone of similar skill, I have been able to consistently pressure (but never kill) but any top duelist just doesn't feel threatened by me at all. I know because I've asked and honestly it's visible from my end as well.

That said, I do feel like it makes a huge difference against any melee spec. Treat it like a baby version of Talons and Ice Blockade. The Root is annoying as hell and the slow+damage makes enough of a difference where I felt that I didn't even have to try against opponents that required effort before. Solely within the scope of the magden kit I feel it is very under rated along with Arctic Blast.

From an overall perspective (relative to what other classes have to offer) you are trading a lot of healing or damage for it. Imo it falls in line with the majority of magden kit; where it tries to do too much so it fails to do anything well enough.

DeadlyRecluse · September 2018

IAVITNI wrote: »

That said, I do feel like it makes a huge difference against any melee spec. Treat it like a baby version of Talons and Ice Blockade. The Root is annoying as hell and the slow+damage makes enough of a difference where I felt that I didn't even have to try against opponents that required effort before. Solely within the scope of the magden kit I feel it is very under rated along with Arctic Blast.

That's definitely true, but you asked in the OP what can help you "compete with mag sorc and magblade." In the context specifically of setting yourself up to compete against those specs, I'd definitely think Shimmering Shield>Gripping Shards. And probably vice versa when fighting stamina melee builds.

IAVITNI · September 2018

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

That said, I do feel like it makes a huge difference against any melee spec. Treat it like a baby version of Talons and Ice Blockade. The Root is annoying as hell and the slow+damage makes enough of a difference where I felt that I didn't even have to try against opponents that required effort before. Solely within the scope of the magden kit I feel it is very under rated along with Arctic Blast.

That's definitely true, but you asked in the OP what can help you "compete with mag sorc and magblade." In the context specifically of setting yourself up to compete against those specs, I'd definitely think Shimmering Shield>Gripping Shards. And probably vice versa when fighting stamina melee builds.

Oh for sure I definitely agree with you. If I run Shards I drop Arctic Blast. If I run Shimmering I would rune Vines for the Major Mending since melee builds will shred me without the zoning. Trying to see if Chilled uptime can make a real difference. Arctic Blast has a very low uptime for Chilled. Grasp isn't that high either, but it helps in all situations except magblade and magsorc

@Adenoma I tested out Infused Poison Glyph and I feel my pressure is a lot better. Have you tested Frost Glyphs and if Chilled uptime is decent? If I could get Minor Miam without having to run ShadowRend I feel that I'd have a much better chance running Shimmering in all situations