Solution for fake tanks/healers

Ardan147 · September 2018

Report them. Players who falsely queue as tank or healer in order to bypass the DPS queue are degrading the experience of other players; both the players in the group that they get placed in who end up having to kick them out and wait for a real tank/healer to become available, and the players that they cut in front of in the queue. ZOS should update their reporting system to include the category "failure to perform role in dungeon using dungeon finder," along with a system for reviewing all such reports generated. Players who get reported too many times for not performing their role would be blocked from using the group finder for a some period of time. Obviously all such reports would need to be reviewed so that players are only actually punished for lying about their role, not simply performing poorly at it despite making an earnest effort.

The only thing that forcing players to only choose one role when queuing has done is to punish players who are actually capable of performing more than one role, as well as possibly screwing over groups that end up needing to replace a tank or a healer when one of the DPS's would otherwise be able to switch to that role with only a change of equipment and skills slots.

VaranisArano · September 2018

Its not against the Terms of Service or Code of Conduct to queue while not intending to fulfill your role.

So until ZOS changes the TOS to account for that (and they won't), dont frivolously report players.

Salvas_Aren · September 2018

This does not cure the lack of tanks.

Who can be reported for the lack of real tanks?

Zypheran · September 2018

I don't falsely queue. I typically play as a dd and I queue as a dd.
That said, I don't have an issue anymore with people that do falsely queue. It takes me 15-20mins to queue for a random and yes, I usually end up in a dungeon with a fake tank.
But if I had to wait for an actual tank, this would probably be more like 40mins.
Essentially, their queue skipping also speeds up my queueing!
I have accepted this scenario and I strongly recommend you let go and do the same because I don't believe it will ever change. There will always be people online and in RL who don't believe queues should apply to them.

EvilCroc · September 2018

No need to involve ZOS in it. Just do not afraid to votekick them. Zero tolerance is the only option to fix this cancer.

Azuramoonstar · September 2018

Ardan147 wrote: »

Report them. Players who falsely queue as tank or healer in order to bypass the DPS queue are degrading the experience of other players; both the players in the group that they get placed in who end up having to kick them out and wait for a real tank/healer to become available, and the players that they cut in front of in the queue. ZOS should update their reporting system to include the category "failure to perform role in dungeon using dungeon finder," along with a system for reviewing all such reports generated. Players who get reported too many times for not performing their role would be blocked from using the group finder for a some period of time. Obviously all such reports would need to be reviewed so that players are only actually punished for lying about their role, not simply performing poorly at it despite making an earnest effort.

The only thing that forcing players to only choose one role when queuing has done is to punish players who are actually capable of performing more than one role, as well as possibly screwing over groups that end up needing to replace a tank or a healer when one of the DPS's would otherwise be able to switch to that role with only a change of equipment and skills slots.

nothing to report against, nothing in the rules states you need to be a good player. Only way to report it is if the tos has a "disruption of play" which you can claim the person is intentionally playing bad, to spit/troll the group which falls under griefing.

No game, even with set roles, has ToS rules that punish people from playing poorly. the only fix is the community to come together and agree to a set of standards for roles in dungeons, and universally remove people who don't follow them.

It worked in ff11.

Only thing you can do is vote kick and say "what you're doing isn't tolerated."

Azuramoonstar · September 2018

Zypheran wrote: »

I don't falsely queue. I typically play as a dd and I queue as a dd.
That said, I don't have an issue anymore with people that do falsely queue. It takes me 15-20mins to queue for a random and yes, I usually end up in a dungeon with a fake tank.
But if I had to wait for an actual tank, this would probably be more like 40mins.
Essentially, their queue skipping also speeds up my queueing!
I have accepted this scenario and I strongly recommend you let go and do the same because I don't believe it will ever change. There will always be people online and in RL who don't believe queues should apply to them.

actually having standards does help promote better game play your queues wouldn't be slow if you made a network of players you can queue with.

Inarre · September 2018

Except the definition of tank and healer in eso is subjective.

Jhalin · September 2018

“Report players who don’t play like I want”

Sure buddy. Next we’ll report people for using Snipe in PvP, or using offmeta sets because “omg my dps is going down because tank won’t run alkosh” or “GG no SPC”

Use your own advice if you’re angry at the inbuilt risks of pugging. Queue with guild mates.

Radiance · September 2018

I should report you for this suggestion. LOL

I have been grouped with people who Q'd as the wrong role and people who are just bad. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. They usually get kicked or can be talked through it sometimes. I have been Q'd with vets who are capable of soloing entire dungeons but will refuse to fight if someone is slightly under-performing. Can I report them for disruptive gameplay? It is rare that you will get someone trying to cheat the system but, yes, it does happen. Then they get kicked, I too have been kicked at times as we all have I'm sure. This is a very drastic solution to something that easily works itself out by kicking that person and there are too many Troll guilds that could abuse this to bully someone.

AlienatedGoat · September 2018

How do you prove they queued with the intention to defraud?
How do you know they aren't just a bad tank/healer?
How do you know they didn't accidentally queue as something else?
How do you define a tank/healer? How can you enforce such a broad and differing definition?
How can you justify reporting a "fake tank" or "fake healer", but have no mention of so-called "fake DPS" or DPS who do nothing other than light attack spam?

There are these and other questions, all should be taken into consideration before going off on some half-cocked crusade.

Reporting is hardly a solution when bias, potential for abuse, and subjective definition exists.

Davor · September 2018

STOP BLAMING PEOPLE FOR WANTING TO PLAY. After all if you wanted a healer or tank you would be one. So how come you are not a healer or tank? Why does someone else have to be if you are not?

ATomiX96 · September 2018

Too much effort for no Money, keep dreaming!

Hal_Moore · September 2018

Fake tank = no Sword & board? ice stave? Taunt? heavy armor?

Fake healer = No resto stave? ? ? ?

Fake DPS = not hitting 40k DPS and not properly identifying and fulfilling their roles as tank or healer.

Seems like if we could just report that last one all the problems with group finder would be solved.

Salvas_Aren · September 2018

Hal_Moore wrote: »

Fake tank = no Sword & board? ice stave? Taunt? heavy armor?

Fake healer = No resto stave? ? ? ?

Fake DPS = not hitting 40k DPS and not properly identifying and fulfilling their roles as tank or healer.

Seems like if we could just report that last one all the problems with group finder would be solved.

Well, true. Doing normals without tank is a lesser issue than doing it without DPS. A fake tank who can carry two fake DDs does the community a favour, actually. He fakes his role, but reduces the waiting time for DDs.

Azuramoonstar · September 2018

Davor wrote: »

STOP BLAMING PEOPLE FOR WANTING TO PLAY. After all if you wanted a healer or tank you would be one. So how come you are not a healer or tank? Why does someone else have to be if you are not?

not how mmo work.

Not everyone wants to play as a tank or healer. And those who sign up to play tank or healer are not playing tank or healer. How does that benefit the group?

Let me give a real world example, you hire a carpenter to build a deck, the person comes but just sits around and doesn't build the deck. you get upset and ask why are you not building me deck?

If he told you "don't tell me how to do my job, why don't you build your own deck?" would you be upset? It is he same thing with party roles in dungeons, people who sign up for a role should play the role.

Thalmor-Nordmaster · September 2018

I was just thinking about Ebon and SPC on my tanks w/Resto on back bar.

Salvas_Aren · September 2018

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Let me give a real world example, you hire a carpenter to build a deck, the person comes but just sits around and doesn't build the deck. you get upset and ask why are you not building me deck?

If he told you "don't tell me how to do my job, why don't you build your own deck?" would you be upset? It is he same thing with party roles in dungeons, people who sign up for a role should play the role.

This example does not fit.

I would describe it this way:

You are upset because your neighbour steals your newspaper, every day. Your friend is a lawyer and offers to stop this. You expect him to file a lawsuit against him, but instead he puts on a leather jacket and knocks on your neighbour's door with a baseball bat, just to tell him that he is upset when you are upset.

Did he fit his expected role? No. Did he deliver the expected result? Yes.

geonsocal · September 2018

when it comes to farming gear - the tank life ain't so bad...especially if your a templar and can heal yourself...the only real trick is figuring out how to build a back bar rotation that can do a little damage also...

most of the hard fights it's just me and the boss off in a quiet corner dancing

not sure what drove me to gravitate towards that specific dungeon role - but, i'm glad i did...

if you can build a "durable" healer - that ain't so bad either - although you spend most the dungeon looking at the other players backs and butts...

Azuramoonstar · September 2018

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Let me give a real world example, you hire a carpenter to build a deck, the person comes but just sits around and doesn't build the deck. you get upset and ask why are you not building me deck?

If he told you "don't tell me how to do my job, why don't you build your own deck?" would you be upset? It is he same thing with party roles in dungeons, people who sign up for a role should play the role.

This example does not fit.

I would describe it this way:

You are upset because your neighbour steals your newspaper, every day. Your friend is a lawyer and offers to stop this. You expect him to file a lawsuit against him, but instead he puts on a leather jacket and knocks on your neighbour's door with a baseball bat, just to tell him that he is upset when you are upset.

Did he fit his expected role? No. Did he deliver the expected result? Yes.

actually my example is perfect. We are talking about people signing up as tanks, but not playing tanks. Aka signing up to do a job, but not doing the job.

When i do group stuff, i expect people to do the role they join up as. I don't fall into the bait of "but x don't need y" as that is subjective based on experience.

When i role as a tank, I tank. When I role as a healer, I play healer. When i role as a damage dealer, i deal damage.

We are not talking about the subjective nature of "does this dungeon need a tank?" which to be frank is the mindset that started all of this.

edit: funny typo

VaranisArano · September 2018

Davor wrote: »

STOP BLAMING PEOPLE FOR WANTING TO PLAY. After all if you wanted a healer or tank you would be one. So how come you are not a healer or tank? Why does someone else have to be if you are not?

Sorry, how does this help me when I'm on my healer and having to deal with boss aggro because my "tank" refuses to slot a taunt?

(My tanks and DDs have enough self heals that "healers" usually aren't a problem.)

Kurat · September 2018

How reporting and punishing going to help with queue times? Real tanks don't magically appear from somewhere. I do have a real tank but I don't play him much because it's just painful when group dps is 10-15k in vet dungeon. Fake DDs are way bigger problem than fake tanks or healers. Instead of complaining here why don't you make a tank, lvl him and skills, farm gear and then watch how bosses die 10+ min each time.

Azuramoonstar · September 2018

Kurat wrote: »

How reporting and punishing going to help with queue times? Real tanks don't magically appear from somewhere. I do have a real tank but I don't play him much because it's just painful when group dps is 10-15k in vet dungeon. Fake DDs are way bigger problem than fake tanks or healers. Instead of complaining here why don't you make a tank, lvl him and skills, farm gear and then watch how bosses die 10+ min each time.

thats when you kick dps, two wrongs don't make a right. If you are competent at your role, do it regardless. If people are not playing their role kick them.

saying "i don't play my tank because other people" is kinda petty.

also not doing x dps is not being "fake", it is people being bad, or people who are new.

stojekarcub18_ESO · September 2018

I've always leaned toward playing tank role, and sometimes healer role for something different. For this reason, I never have to wait for queues in ESO. I get the frustration, though. I've tried to build a dps character in the past, to mix it up, and have never been able to get into any dungeon. ESO is built around dmg checks and min-maxing...so if you want to run a dps, you have to pretty much succumb to the mold, or find a good group of friends that share your passion for enjoying the game and playing to try new challenges(which IS possible, just frowned upon, sadly). It is what it is...

Ardan147 · September 2018

Zypheran wrote: »

I don't falsely queue. I typically play as a dd and I queue as a dd.
That said, I don't have an issue anymore with people that do falsely queue. It takes me 15-20mins to queue for a random and yes, I usually end up in a dungeon with a fake tank.
But if I had to wait for an actual tank, this would probably be more like 40mins.
Essentially, their queue skipping also speeds up my queueing!
I have accepted this scenario and I strongly recommend you let go and do the same because I don't believe it will ever change. There will always be people online and in RL who don't believe queues should apply to them.

Only works if the dungeon is easy enough that you can do it without a proper tank or healer. Definitely not for vet DLC dungeons. Even so, it sort of creates a dilemma - do you allow the player to remain in the group and thus give tacit approval to what they are doing, or kick them and wait for a replacement even though you probably could have run the dungeon anyway just to send a message? (I say if the dungeon is easy enough, kick the fake tank and run the dungeon with the remaining three players until a replacement is found.)

Davor wrote: »

STOP BLAMING PEOPLE FOR WANTING TO PLAY. After all if you wanted a healer or tank you would be one. So how come you are not a healer or tank? Why does someone else have to be if you are not?

No one is forcing anyone to be a tank or healer. Just don't queue as one unless you actually are one (or can be one). Simple, yes?

Phage wrote: »

How do you prove they queued with the intention to defraud?

How do you know they aren't just a bad tank/healer?

How do you know they didn't accidentally queue as something else?

How do you define a tank/healer? How can you enforce such a broad and differing definition?

How can you justify reporting a "fake tank" or "fake healer", but have no mention of so-called "fake DPS" or DPS who do nothing other than light attack spam?

There are these and other questions, all should be taken into consideration before going off on some half-cocked crusade.

Reporting is hardly a solution when bias, potential for abuse, and subjective definition exists.

It's about trying to cheat the queue, not about one's skill as a player. One wouldn't have to worry about having action taken against their account for performing poorly at a role, or even accidentally queuing for the wrong role, because each report would have to be reviewed to make sure it has merit (i.e., as long as it appears that they player was at least trying to perform their designated role, they would be fine), and then it would take multiple reports to establish a pattern of behavior, and then the player would have to be warned at least once that continuing to act in such a manner would result in their ability to use the group finder tool being restricted for some period of time. The idea would be to educate, not to punish.

Agenericname · September 2018

Ardan147 wrote: »

Zypheran wrote: »

I don't falsely queue. I typically play as a dd and I queue as a dd.
That said, I don't have an issue anymore with people that do falsely queue. It takes me 15-20mins to queue for a random and yes, I usually end up in a dungeon with a fake tank.
But if I had to wait for an actual tank, this would probably be more like 40mins.
Essentially, their queue skipping also speeds up my queueing!
I have accepted this scenario and I strongly recommend you let go and do the same because I don't believe it will ever change. There will always be people online and in RL who don't believe queues should apply to them.

Only works if the dungeon is easy enough that you can do it without a proper tank or healer. Definitely not for vet DLC dungeons. Even so, it sort of creates a dilemma - do you allow the player to remain in the group and thus give tacit approval to what they are doing, or kick them and wait for a replacement even though you probably could have run the dungeon anyway just to send a message? (I say if the dungeon is easy enough, kick the fake tank and run the dungeon with the remaining three players until a replacement is found.)

Davor wrote: »

STOP BLAMING PEOPLE FOR WANTING TO PLAY. After all if you wanted a healer or tank you would be one. So how come you are not a healer or tank? Why does someone else have to be if you are not?

No one is forcing anyone to be a tank or healer. Just don't queue as one unless you actually are one (or can be one). Simple, yes?

Phage wrote: »

How do you prove they queued with the intention to defraud?

How do you know they aren't just a bad tank/healer?

How do you know they didn't accidentally queue as something else?

How do you define a tank/healer? How can you enforce such a broad and differing definition?

How can you justify reporting a "fake tank" or "fake healer", but have no mention of so-called "fake DPS" or DPS who do nothing other than light attack spam?

There are these and other questions, all should be taken into consideration before going off on some half-cocked crusade.

Reporting is hardly a solution when bias, potential for abuse, and subjective definition exists.

It's about trying to cheat the queue, not about one's skill as a player. One wouldn't have to worry about having action taken against their account for performing poorly at a role, or even accidentally queuing for the wrong role, because each report would have to be reviewed to make sure it has merit (i.e., as long as it appears that they player was at least trying to perform their designated role, they would be fine), and then it would take multiple reports to establish a pattern of behavior, and then the player would have to be warned at least once that continuing to act in such a manner would result in their ability to use the group finder tool being restricted for some period of time. The idea would be to educate, not to punish.

That would mean that ZOS would need to evaluate each report. That would be resource intensive to say the least. They would have to differentiate between troll reports, poor or inexperienced players, and players that queued under a false pretense. They would basically have to prove intent each report.

Assuming that they did that, and I get reported and confirmed as a "fake" role, will ZOS reimburse me for my time spent banned from the content that I play the most? If they didn't they would certainly lose subscribers and if they did they would lose money. It's not a violation of the ToS. It seems like a poor business model.

They have basically given the players the tools to deal with themselves. It bothers some, it doesn't bother others. We can make that choice for ourselves.

NyassaV · September 2018

OMG another one of these threads. I can tank or heal nearly any non DLC dungeon in vet with any of my builds. I have a budget tank build and I can do fine with that as well as a budget healer build with can do 20k DPS while keeping a group alive. On my usual PvE DPS setup I can slot shade and tank with no problem what so ever and if people really need me to taunt I have innerfire unlocked too and can slot that where magelight is.

I hate to say it but git gud. You are the solution to this problem, not reporting people.

https://clips.twitch.tv/SarcasticGeniusWerewolfBIRB

swirve · September 2018

Raise the entry requirements for activity finder thatll help.... not many real tanks will want to do a vet DLC dng with 2 DDs pulling 5k DPS each and a vigor healer...

vet dngs should have more requirements unless you have a disable option and want to run the Russian Roulette of activity finder, which seems to be 5 bullets in a 6 barrel.

Salvas_Aren · September 2018

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

How reporting and punishing going to help with queue times? Real tanks don't magically appear from somewhere. I do have a real tank but I don't play him much because it's just painful when group dps is 10-15k in vet dungeon. Fake DDs are way bigger problem than fake tanks or healers. Instead of complaining here why don't you make a tank, lvl him and skills, farm gear and then watch how bosses die 10+ min each time.

thats when you kick dps, two wrongs don't make a right. If you are competent at your role, do it regardless. If people are not playing their role kick them.

saying "i don't play my tank because other people" is kinda petty.

also not doing x dps is not being "fake", it is people being bad, or people who are new.

Wow, I didn't know that this is possible.

Maybe because bad DPSs usually pug as a group of two, no way to ditch them. And if they don't, it's often a carebear who says *we can do it*. Leaving the group because of this is pointless, because leaving means repug penalty. The only way would be to harass them until they kick you.

For that reason, a guildie and me fakepug as a hybrid+DD setup, as tank and healer, if the other two are competent, we burn the dungeon. If they are basically dumb or careless, we start rushing. If they try to ditch us, they can't.

Feel free to call me toxic, make me stop it.

Ardan147 · September 2018

Agenericname wrote: »

That would mean that ZOS would need to evaluate each report. That would be resource intensive to say the least. They would have to differentiate between troll reports, poor or inexperienced players, and players that queued under a false pretense. They would basically have to prove intent each report.

That, I'll admit, is probably why it would never actually be implemented.

NyassaV wrote: »

OMG another one of these threads. If you can't clear the I can tank or heal nearly any non DLC dungeon in vet with any of my builds. I have a budget tank build and I can do fine with that as well as a budget healer build with can do 20k DPS while keeping a group alive. On my usual PvE DPS setup I can slot shade and tank with no problem what so ever and if people really need me to taunt I have innerfire unlocked too and can slot that where magelight is.

I hate to say it but git gud. You are the solution to this problem, not reporting people.

https://clips.twitch.tv/SarcasticGeniusWerewolfBIRB

For me, what I find obnoxious is ZOS's "solution" which is to only allow players to queue for one single role in the dungeon finder, and you're locked into that role for the entire dungeon run. Even if something happens like the healer leaving the group, and you have a DPS who would be capable of handling the role of healer, but because that player queued as a DPS they are locked into that role so the group has to wait until a new healer is found, even if finding a replacement DPS would be far quicker. (I suppose another possibility might be to allow for groups of non-standard composition depending on what the members of the group want or are willing to accept. Like if a healer leaves the group or is kicked, the leader can tell the group finder either "find us another healer" or "find us any warm body." Although how exactly this would be implemented, I don't really know.)

Azuramoonstar · September 2018

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

How reporting and punishing going to help with queue times? Real tanks don't magically appear from somewhere. I do have a real tank but I don't play him much because it's just painful when group dps is 10-15k in vet dungeon. Fake DDs are way bigger problem than fake tanks or healers. Instead of complaining here why don't you make a tank, lvl him and skills, farm gear and then watch how bosses die 10+ min each time.

thats when you kick dps, two wrongs don't make a right. If you are competent at your role, do it regardless. If people are not playing their role kick them.

saying "i don't play my tank because other people" is kinda petty.

also not doing x dps is not being "fake", it is people being bad, or people who are new.

Wow, I didn't know that this is possible.

Maybe because bad DPSs usually pug as a group of two, no way to ditch them. And if they don't, it's often a carebear who says *we can do it*. Leaving the group because of this is pointless, because leaving means repug penalty. The only way would be to harass them until they kick you.

For that reason, a guildie and me fakepug as a hybrid+DD setup, as tank and healer, if the other two are competent, we burn the dungeon. If they are basically dumb or careless, we start rushing. If they try to ditch us, they can't.

Feel free to call me toxic, make me stop it.

how many mmo have you played? I had little to no issue kicking bad players out of my groups. And tbh i have no qualms leaving bad groups even if there is a penalty.

You are toxic in the sense you are using derogatory terms, and acting like your shi don't stick. Which imo shouldn't be a welcomed attitude in mmo. Changing the definition of fake is just irking me. Just call them bad players.