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A new meta for Wardens
Gnortranermara
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Wardens have been severely underpowered in nearly all roles since Morrowind released over a year ago. Every other class excels at something in a group situation. DK's make the best tanks, Templars make the best healers, Sorcs make the best AOE DPS, and Nightblades have the best single target DPS. Wardens make the best nothing. This post is about carving out a new niche role for Wardens so that they, like the other classes, can excel at least one PvE role: stamina healing.
Many vet trial groups run with two healers. That's generally going to be two magicka Templars. Why not buff the Warden's stamina healing so that the optimal raid setup changes to one magicka Templar and one stamina Warden healer? The Powerful Assault set gives a weapon and spell damage bonus similar to SPC/Olorime, but weaker. This could be updated to a new, named "Minor Courage" buff. An optimized trial raid group would therefore want 1 Templar in Olorime and 1 Warden in Powerful Assault to get both buffs. And the Warden brings other things to the table: namely Major Ward+Resolve, Minor Lifesteal, Minor Toughness, etc.
The stam Warden healer can already bring that utility to the table, but the problem is that their stam heals are too weak. Unlike mag healers, they have no stam healing weapon skill line. You can't heal with DW/bow abilities. Therefore, they need better class heals to make up the difference. Soothing Spores is too narrow. Healing Seed has no stam morph and requires a double-tap (as players correctly argued for years about Templar Healing Ritual, delayed burst healing makes no sense). And the other skills also need some tweaks to offer more for stam healers.
ZOS has shown resistance to buffing Warden DPS, so why not do this instead? Buff the Warden's stamina heals to create a viable companion to pair with magicka Templars in trials. Mixing up the meta and doing something different will be fun and offer a new set of tools for endgame raid groups.
Edited by Gnortranermara on September 4, 2018 11:44PM Many vet trial groups run with two healers. That's generally going to be two magicka Templars. Why not buff the Warden's stamina healing so that the optimal raid setup changes to one magicka Templar and one stamina Warden healer? The Powerful Assault set gives a weapon and spell damage bonus similar to SPC/Olorime, but weaker. This could be updated to a new, named "Minor Courage" buff. An optimized trial raid group would therefore want 1 Templar in Olorime and 1 Warden in Powerful Assault to get both buffs. And the Warden brings other things to the table: namely Major Ward+Resolve, Minor Lifesteal, Minor Toughness, etc.
The stam Warden healer can already bring that utility to the table, but the problem is that their stam heals are too weak. Unlike mag healers, they have no stam healing weapon skill line. You can't heal with DW/bow abilities. Therefore, they need better class heals to make up the difference. Soothing Spores is too narrow. Healing Seed has no stam morph and requires a double-tap (as players correctly argued for years about Templar Healing Ritual, delayed burst healing makes no sense). And the other skills also need some tweaks to offer more for stam healers.
ZOS has shown resistance to buffing Warden DPS, so why not do this instead? Buff the Warden's stamina heals to create a viable companion to pair with magicka Templars in trials. Mixing up the meta and doing something different will be fun and offer a new set of tools for endgame raid groups.
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DuskMarine✭✭✭✭✭
✭SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »Wardens have been severely underpowered in nearly all roles since Morrowind released over a year ago. Every other class excels at something in a group situation. DK's make the best tanks, Templars make the best healers, Sorcs make the best AOE DPS, and Nightblades have the best single target DPS. Wardens make the best nothing. This post is about carving out a new niche role for Wardens so that they, like the other classes, can excel at least one PvE role: stamina healing.
Many vet trial groups run with two healers. That's generally going to be two magicka Templars. Why not buff the Warden's stamina healing so that the optimal raid setup changes to one magicka Templar and one stamina Warden healer? The Powerful Assault set gives a weapon and spell damage bonus similar to SPC/Olorime, but weaker. This could be updated to a new, named "Minor Courage" buff. An optimized trial raid group would therefore want 1 Templar in Olorime and 1 Warden in Powerful Assault to get both buffs. And the Warden brings other things to the table: namely Major Ward+Resolve, Minor Lifesteal, Minor Toughness, etc.
The stam Warden healer can already bring that utility to the table, but the problem is that their stam heals are too weak. Unlike mag healers, they have no stam healing weapon skill line. You can't heal with DW/bow abilities. Therefore, they need better class heals to make up the difference. Soothing Spores is too narrow. Healing Seed has no stam morph and requires a double-tap (as players correctly argued for years about Templar Healing Ritual, delayed burst healing makes no sense). And the other skills also need some tweaks to offer more for stam healers.
ZOS has shown resistance to buffing Warden DPS, so why not do this instead? Buff the Warden's stamina heals to create a viable companion to pair with magicka Templars in trials. Mixing up the meta and doing something different will be fun and offer a new set of tools for endgame raid groups.
i wish they woulda just made the warden a buffer/healer class cause its not useful for anything else. they screwed it on launch. and stamdens are good in pvp take alot of work to be good in pve but their good but magdens..................yea magden is 150% useless in every shape and form1 -
ccmedaddy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I love your enthusiasm for stam healing but buffing stamwarden's heals would be absolutely awful for PvP balance.
Also...
"ZOS has shown resistance to buffing Warden DPS, so why not do this instead?"
Why would they put a major balancing issue (lack of competitiveness in PvE DPS, especially for magicka wardens) on the back burner to promote an incredibly niche playstyle?2 -
Gnortranermara✭✭✭✭✭
✭DuskMarine wrote: »yea magden is 150% useless in every shape and form
I've suggested this because it's simple. Reworking a few healing skills is easy. Very little dev time need for a huge benefit. Ranger/Druid themed secondary healers would be a nice addition to the meta.
Unfortunately the fix for Magden is a bit harder. They can only fix Magden if they introduce Alteration tanking staves, restore Frost to a DPS weapon, and maybe buff Nord so there's a race properly optimized for that role.Edited by Gnortranermara on September 4, 2018 11:53PM1 -
DuskMarine✭✭✭✭✭
✭SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »DuskMarine wrote: »yea magden is 150% useless in every shape and form
I've suggested this because it's simple. Reworking a few healing skills is easy. Very little dev time need for a huge benefit. Ranger/Druid themed secondary healers would be a nice addition to the meta.
Unfortunately the fix for Magden is a bit harder. They can only fix Magden if they introduce Alteration tanking staves, restore Frost to a DPS weapon, and maybe buff Nord so there's a race properly optimized for that role.
for magden they really dont need to do that if theyd make it where you could dps with the ice staff itd make it alot better. or make another staff like you said for tanking. but it would just take way to long for zos to figure out the way to fix it is actually easier than most would think its just their to focused on all the other classes leaving warden out to rot. magicka warden i made asap after morrowind dropped and then it just turned into a useless pile of trash that i never use that just sits in my inventory made so its like come on man.0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What's the point? They need a niche outside of DPS/healer/tank.
A good role would have been a hybrid DPS buffer/debuffer. Unfortunately, ZOS didn't give wardens any buffs/debuffs on their DPS skills.Edited by MLGProPlayer on September 4, 2018 11:59PM2 -
DuskMarine✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »What's the point? They need a niche outside of DPS/healer/tank.
A good role would have been a hybrid DPS/buffer. Unfortunately, ZOS didn't give wardens any buffs with their DPS skills.
tank buffer would be awesome to have.0 -
Gnortranermara✭✭✭✭✭
✭I love your enthusiasm for stam healing but buffing stamwarden's heals would be absolutely awful for PvP balance.
I disagree. Here's why: skills have morphs, and morphs can be used to separate the things that are best for PvE from the things that are best for PvP. For instance, Corrupting Pollen is a powerful PvP ability. Leave that one for the Magdens, then. Let Stamdens have the other morph. A better AOE on Soothing Spores would do virtually nothing to affect PvP. All it takes is some sensible strategic planning and we can have PvE stam healers without disrupting the balance of PvP.0 -
firedrgn✭✭✭✭✭Not sure what the hang up is with ice staff why can we chose dps or tank. Why force a whloe class into one role.2
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Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I like pet classes. Pets are run server-side; when you have 2 second lag, that's important for just staying alive.... So I have a couple of wardens and a couple of sorcs - and they're far more viable than the other classes I have. I have one light and one heavy of both - I just don't really like the med armor stam setups.
The only other class that works fairly well for me is templar in heavy armor, 1 hand/shield. And she's not as easy to play as the pet class girls are.
I wouldn't be in favor of the changes you're talking about here.0 -
DanteYoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Interesting but i can't see it happening.. Personally think we have a better chance at buffing ice skills and removing ice staff taunts and adding them to warden ice morph..
Then we'd have viable ice mages and ice tanks..0 -
SilverWF✭✭✭✭✭
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And make Stam Mehdens even stronger in PVP?SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »Why not buff the Warden's stamina healing (to the level of) magicka Templar?
Thx, no.- PC EU. Ebonheart Pact. CP 1k+
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Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭*sigh* Seems to me that ZoS needs to totally separate PVE and PVP. I am pretty tired of winding up reading threads where all of a sudden it's all about PVP.
Don't y'all have your own section of the forums?2 -
Enkil✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wardens are great healers already that just lack innate dispel templars have (can get from purge). A Stam warden can use the Magicka heals if they want to be a little hybrid... Jewels of misrule (HP pool, mana regen, Stam regen) and sufficient base regen is all that’s needed.0 -
_Ahala_✭✭✭✭✭
✭Magden is really not useless... People who have mastered the class are still messing things up in PvP and PvE (granted with more effort than it would take with any other mag spec)...
I’m not saying Magden is fine as is because a handful of us can play it successfully... It absolutely needs some help as far as filling out its offensive toolkit with stuns, sustained damage, and tactical abilities but I do have faith that we will be getting some help at least in Murkmire
But on the topic of stamden healers... Why does every Warden ability need a Stam Morph? It’s stam and mag archetypes are already way too similar... Magden is already starved for abilities as its second mag damage tree was scrapped and made strictly for tanking to follow the ice tanking agenda... Cant zos just release a bard’s guild skill line built around stam support skills and heals instead of taking away abilities from Magden?Edited by _Ahala_ on September 5, 2018 4:44AM6 -
Finviuswe✭✭✭✭The stamina healer would be a great addition. That would add some variety to the gameplay.0 -
jaschacasadiob16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭As long as Wardens don't have anything similar to Breath of Life (untargeted burst heals at huge range), Templars will always be ahead. I enjoy healing veteran content with my Warden, but for end-game stuff, Templar all the way."Yesterday while searching a barrel in vVoM I found a lemon. Best drop of the whole run."
Protect the weak. Heal the sick.
Treasure the gifts of friendship. Seek joy and inspiration in the mysteries of love.
Honor the Earth, its creatures, and the spirits. Use Nature's gifts wisely. Respect her power. Fear her fury.0 -
Tryxus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No thx. I'd rather have ZOS working to improve regular MagDen healing (and healing in general) rather than adding a niche type of healingjaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »As long as Wardens don't have anything similar to Breath of Life (untargeted burst heals at huge range), Templars will always be ahead. I enjoy healing veteran content with my Warden, but for end-game stuff, Templar all the way.
That's not what puts Templars ahead of Wardens."Stand strong, stay true and shelter all."
Tryxus - Guardian of the Green - Warden - PC/EU3 -
Gargath✭✭✭✭✭
✭In my opinion warden plays more than enough.
Currently I have 3 magdens, healer, tank and frost dd plus stamina archer. All are fun builds and since a long time I usually play only warden. But I'm not interested in stamina healer, that's a niche that sounds pretty bad in this game and not my style.
Just please don't change anything stupid with my magwardens
. Edited by Gargath on September 5, 2018 11:33AMPC EU (PL): 14 characters. ESO player since 06.08.2015. Farkas finest quote: "Some people don't think I'm smart. Those people get my fist. But you, I like."1 -
jaschacasadiob16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
Considering you said For PvE, I would say Templar is the best but Warden is a close second and you have no experience in Templar healers. Very good point.That's not what puts Templars ahead of Wardens."Yesterday while searching a barrel in vVoM I found a lemon. Best drop of the whole run."
Protect the weak. Heal the sick.
Treasure the gifts of friendship. Seek joy and inspiration in the mysteries of love.
Honor the Earth, its creatures, and the spirits. Use Nature's gifts wisely. Respect her power. Fear her fury.0 -
Anrose✭✭✭✭✭Sylvermynx wrote: »*sigh* Seems to me that ZoS needs to totally separate PVE and PVP. I am pretty tired of winding up reading threads where all of a sudden it's all about PVP.
Don't y'all have your own section of the forums?
Yeah, we do. And so do you guys.
But this is the “general” section. Which is for everyone.
Back on topic, wardens are niche in PvE, absolutely. But they are excellent in PvP, both stam and magicka.2 -
Tryxus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »
Hmmm... I guess that Templar healer I've got and take out to vet trials is just for show then? Good point.
And no, Breath of Life is not the reason for Templar > Warden"Stand strong, stay true and shelter all."
Tryxus - Guardian of the Green - Warden - PC/EU0 -
Defilted✭✭✭✭✭
✭They need to separate PVP and PVE skills...
They could also try two PVP morph and two PVE morphs
Anything to separate PVP and PVE would be good IMOXBOX NA
XBOX Series X
#NightmareBear0 -
Alcest✭✭✭Being a Warden is not about being the best in something. It's about to help animals and harmony with nature and stuff.. like hippieEdited by Alcest on September 5, 2018 1:29PM3
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Guppet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wardens are second best at two roles. If you enjoy them both, that’s better than best at one and worst at the other.
DK best tank, worst healer
Templar best healer worst tank
If you enjoy both roles warden is great. It’s also pretty good for bow builds. Now if they could make on of the bear morphs give the bear a taunt0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭yes pls buff my stamden heals in pvp, it's not like it OP af already.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0
