The Dungeon Dilemma: What to do about DLC

Crafts_Many_Boxes · September 2018

Right now, we're at the point where there are almost as many DLC dungeons as there are non-DLC. With plans in place to release 4 more DLC dungeons every year, it won't be long before the DLC dungeons outweigh the vanilla ones in the pool.

What were once an annoyance for ESO+ players just trying to complete a random are going to become a major roadblock. The fact of the matter is, these dungeons are interesting, mechanically-oriented, challenging, and fun....with the right group. Of veteran players.

To drive home my point above, newer players have no chance at these things. They were designed with experienced players in mind, and that's fine but Zenimax has done nothing to ensure that only players who are up for the challenge are completing them. Forget CP300, there should be a CP600 minimum for vet DLC dungeons. Normal should probably be CP300.

And sure, new players can bumble their way through, but I guarantee you not one of them will say they had a good time. Not one of them will say they preferred it over city of ash or darkshade caverns. They'll probably spend a few hours in there, which is ridiculous by modern MMO dungeon standards.

And I know the classic response here is "well, just queue for what you want, you don't have to use the random dungeon tool."

There are a few things wrong with this train of thought:

1) I'd imagine that many players only even do dungeons because of the daily random bonus. If Zenimax creates a situation in which a random queue only leads to a painful slog through a DLC dungeon, the total number of players queueing up for anything at all will decline sharply. I think we're already seeing this as more and more DLC dungeons are released.

2) If your tool has become unattractive to use because the content that is accessed by the tool is prohibitively difficult, then you've designed a bad tool or bad content. One of the two.

In short, if your solution is "well, just don't do that thing", then it's not a solution. It's a workaround. Workarounds need to be addressed at some point, and that goes beyond ESO or even videogames.

So, in this discussion, let's completely ignore the idea of just not using the tool. Let's assume the tool is vital for a healthy dungeon pool, as it may very well be.

Going back to the central issue then, how do we address this? How do we keep the dungeon-going populace healthy, reduce the already substantial pain that many newer and casual players are put through, and bolster the system to be prepared for all these DLC dungeons on the horizon? The core issue, as I see it, is that we've got all these dungeons, of ridiculously varying difficulty and length to complete, in the same pool.

And yeah, we can split up the pools to make things better, but there are also drawbacks to that proposition. The pool of players in each category shrinks compared to the previous state, and we're back to point #1 that I outlined above. Less players in a pool isn't a good thing, that just leads to longer times. And don't get me wrong, I'd rather see this happen than nothing at all, but there's a better way.

When you look at everything, and how there are countless threads even on the elite-dominated forums about the issues with DLC dungeons, the best, albeit most difficult to accomplish answer becomes clear - ZOS needs to rebalance the dungeons in this game.

There's really no way around it. It's absurd to have such a variance of difficulty in your dungeons for an MMO. Look at WoW. Look at SWTOR. Look at Rift. Guild wars 2 is a bad example, but my point is that we're talking about how to deal with this absurd system instead of addressing how absurd it is and trying to fix it.

Maybe the vanilla 1 dungeons are too easy, sure. Maybe those need to become a little more difficult. At the same time, the DLC dungeons need to come way, way down in difficulty to become digestible by the masses. And yes, I'm talking about both difficulties. You want truly hard content, you've got veteran trials. DLC dungeons are clearly a failed experiment at the point, I'm sure ZOS has heaps of data to back me up.

There is some median level of difficulty, higher than most vanilla dungeons but lower than DLC dungeons, where ALL dungeons need to rest at. I believe WoW did a massive balance pass / overhaul of their older dungeons when Cataclysm came out. This game desperately needs the same. If all the dungeons are approximately the same in terms of difficulty, and that difficulty is close-ish to "2" dungeons, most issues with the dungeon finder go away.

idk · September 2018

To the first sentance, it’s incorrect. We are about at the point half the dungeons are DLC. Far from the same number. As a result it will be awhile before DLC dungeons outnumber the original designs.

RexyCat · September 2018

idk wrote: »

To the first sentance, it’s incorrect. We are about at the point half the dungeons are DPC. Far from the same number. As a result it will be awhile before DLC dungeons outnumber the original designs.

DPC? Don't Panic Challenge? You only have to stay close to those high level (Elfs) and you should be safe...poor bosmer/kaijit/agorian/nord/orcs/imperials from those giant spiders and wolfies....or what ever that crawls in those tunnels. :-D

Guppet · September 2018

There are 10 dlc, that includes imperial city. There are 24 non dlc dungeons. It’s far from close to the same number.

If somone said they will give me 24 grand and they actually gave me 10, I’d see that as massively short changed.

Your looking at 4 years before it overtakes non dlc.

AlnilamE · September 2018

So what normal DLC dungeon would an inexperience player spend "a few hours" in?

How would that same inexperienced player do in Darkshade II? City of Ash II? Crypt of Hearts II?

If you were to order all the DLC dungeons from hardest to easiest, and put City of Ash II in that mix, what would that order look like?

I run normal randoms fairly regularly and I often end up with players who have not run the dungeon yet (and I have not run all of them to the point where I can do them in my sleep), but we pretty much always manage to finish it and it's not an unpleasant experience as long as everyone is willing to give it their best.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · September 2018

In my defense, I wasn't actually looking at the list when I wrote that. I guess I was a bit off.

Okay, maybe it'll be a few years, but still, in 2 years they will be comparable. In 1 year they will be significant. Perhaps my timeline is off but my point still stands.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · September 2018

AlnilamE wrote: »

So what normal DLC dungeon would an inexperience player spend "a few hours" in?

How would that same inexperienced player do in Darkshade II? City of Ash II? Crypt of Hearts II?

If you were to order all the DLC dungeons from hardest to easiest, and put City of Ash II in that mix, what would that order look like?

I run normal randoms fairly regularly and I often end up with players who have not run the dungeon yet (and I have not run all of them to the point where I can do them in my sleep), but we pretty much always manage to finish it and it's not an unpleasant experience as long as everyone is willing to give it their best.

You totally have a point with the II dungeons. That's why I said "2-ish" when I was talking about rebalancing. I think the median should definitely be below CoA 2 or Banished Cells 2, but still above most "1" dungeons. Darkshade 2 doesn't really get difficult until the very end, and even that's just a healing check if your group isn't mechanically savvy.

That being said, most normal DLC dungeons can be completed by most groups...when there is an experienced player in said group willing to take the lead. If you remove that component, it all crumbles. Before I knew the dungeons, when I was first starting out, I was in some of those groups. Trust me, a few hours is accurate. We can't just assume there will always be an experienced player who is able to take the lead and willing to be patient. That's just a fantasy.

Incidentally, right now, imperial city prison is the only DLC dungeon that is totally noob-friendly. It's long, but there are no road blocks. The rest have some tricky, ill-explained mechanics that can trip up new groups if there isn't anyone to help them. The core issue with DLC dungeons is that they're just throwing so many mechanics at you that you can't brute force your way through, while explaining so little of it. That's not even to mention the veteran versions, where they add the dps checks on top of that. Trying to figure things out by throwing corpses at a problem isn't a fun time for a casual just trying to do a quick little dungeon with the hour or so of free time they happen to have. And then, when you throw these dungeons in with gems like fungal grotto 1, it makes literally no sense.

Krayl · September 2018

The problem I continue to have with these posts, while I won't completely disagree with them out of hand, is that the daily random is a REWARD for doing something. It's not a handout, or a guarantee. It seems people want their 'free' xp to just sleep through some easy dungeon.

So, I don't totally disagree with the sentiment but lets not lose sight of the fact that nobody is OWED the daily rewards. They are EARNED for using the random dungeon finder, along with the challenges that entails.

That being said, a more robust system would be cool. I would like to see greater rewards for various levels of challenge. A random base game dungeon on normal shouldn't give the same reward as a random DLC veteran accomplished on hard mode.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · September 2018

Krayl wrote: »

The problem I continue to have with these posts, while I won't completely disagree with them out of hand, is that the daily random is a REWARD for doing something. It's not a handout, or a guarantee. It seems people want their 'free' xp to just sleep through some easy dungeon.

So, I don't totally disagree with the sentiment but lets not lose sight of the fact that nobody is OWED the daily rewards. They are EARNED for using the random dungeon finder, along with the challenges that entails.

That being said, a more robust system would be cool. I would like to see greater rewards for various levels of challenge. A random base game dungeon on normal shouldn't give the same reward as a random DLC veteran accomplished on hard mode.

And I get that side of it, I really do.

I feel like the intention of the random group finder was to reward players for being willing to go into whatever dungeon, to help out whoever needed additional players for their desired dungeon. What's it's become is a glorified game of Russian roulette, where you're betting on the jackpot / empty chamber (fungal grotto 1), and that's dumb.

But you touch on that in the second part of your comment, so I think you agree with me there

Acrolas · September 2018

There were two confirmed for 2018. Nothing's been confirmed for 2019 and beyond, and nothing stating that new dungeon content would remain exclusively within paid content.

And, of course, the Horns of the Reach DLC added two fantastic dungeons and showed our continuing commitment to supporting and expanding co-op group play. Expect to see more dungeon content every year, including two in 2018.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26275

But there's a hint in there. Cooperative group play. You rarely get cooperation or strong coordination in random or pickup play. I see random dungeon as a last resort where beggars can't be choosers.

DLC dungeons are opportunities for the game to deep dive into niche lore and tell stories that don't fit into the larger narratives, so they shouldn't be watered down and turned into church group haunted houses. They should feel substantial and challenging. Guild up, find people with the same objective as you, and tackle the content you want to tackle.

If you leave everything up to chance, you're going to have a bad time. Speak up and ask for help. Cooperative play will guide you through learning curves and expedite daily rewards. Yes, the group tool needs a number of refinements. But the best solution for now isn't to mess with content that people already know. It's to make things easier for yourself by taking advantage of all the other social resources in the game.

weedgenius · September 2018

AlnilamE wrote: »

So what normal DLC dungeon would an inexperience player spend "a few hours" in?

How would that same inexperienced player do in Darkshade II? City of Ash II? Crypt of Hearts II?

If you were to order all the DLC dungeons from hardest to easiest, and put City of Ash II in that mix, what would that order look like?

I run normal randoms fairly regularly and I often end up with players who have not run the dungeon yet (and I have not run all of them to the point where I can do them in my sleep), but we pretty much always manage to finish it and it's not an unpleasant experience as long as everyone is willing to give it their best.

Ha! I am a 550 CP healer and I queued for a random normal the day the Wolfhunter DLC dropped (silly me...). Everyone else was around my level and it took over two hours to get through Moon Hunter Keep on normal. Part of that is because people were constantly dropping out and then we would have to wait in the queue again. Some people dropped immediately when they loaded in and realized it was a DLC dungeon, then it was back to waiting. At one point our tank left and the new tank was a Mag Sorc with shock staffs on both bars (ie not a tank).

I run normals pretty regularly, too, and I can honestly say I am filled with dread every single time a DLC screen pops up and I realize what I'm about to get myself into. I'm thinking of finding someone without ESO+ to run with so when we queue together I don't have to worry about it.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · September 2018

Acrolas wrote: »

There were two confirmed for 2018. Nothing's been confirmed for 2019 and beyond, and nothing stating that new dungeon content would remain exclusively within paid content.

And, of course, the Horns of the Reach DLC added two fantastic dungeons and showed our continuing commitment to supporting and expanding co-op group play. Expect to see more dungeon content every year, including two in 2018.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26275

But there's a hint in there. Cooperative group play. You rarely get cooperation or strong coordination in random or pickup play. I see random dungeon as a last resort where beggars can't be choosers.

DLC dungeons are opportunities for the game to deep dive into niche lore and tell stories that don't fit into the larger narratives, so they shouldn't be watered down and turned into church group haunted houses. They should feel substantial and challenging. Guild up, find people with the same objective as you, and tackle the content you want to tackle.

If you leave everything up to chance, you're going to have a bad time. Speak up and ask for help. Cooperative play will guide you through learning curves and expedite daily rewards. Yes, the group tool needs a number of refinements. But the best solution for now isn't to mess with content that people already know. It's to make things easier for yourself by taking advantage of all the other social resources in the game.

You can make something lore-rich and a great narrative without bogging it down with slews of complicated mechanics. For many players, these DLC dungeons are beyond challenging. I know that's a difficult concept for a lot of the folks on here, but trust me. I was just getting into the DLC dungeons before they got nerfed last year. So, so many groups just disbanded because we couldn't handle the mechanics in WGT or Mazzatun or Cradle, and usually nobody even knew what was going on. It's gotten better since then, but only for the older ones that were actually nerfed, and they can still easily cause groups to ragequit.

You're coming from a very altruistic, idealistic place. And I respect that. But you have to face reality. I can't even fathom how many players have quit in frustration over these things, when they were only expecting a random dungeon. Think of all the potential players who could have gotten better as they went, then maybe hit a wall in trials (you know, like in every other MMO ever), and had to really take a good hard look at themselves then. Think of all the potential revenue ZOS is losing over these players quitting so quickly.

Putting roadblocks in your standard dungeons is a recipe for failure, and the problem is only getting worse as more DLC dungeons come out. That's why I'm saying we need a standard for difficulty in dungeons. Or separate the pools, but that solution comes at a price.

AlnilamE · September 2018

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

So what normal DLC dungeon would an inexperience player spend "a few hours" in?

How would that same inexperienced player do in Darkshade II? City of Ash II? Crypt of Hearts II?

If you were to order all the DLC dungeons from hardest to easiest, and put City of Ash II in that mix, what would that order look like?

I run normal randoms fairly regularly and I often end up with players who have not run the dungeon yet (and I have not run all of them to the point where I can do them in my sleep), but we pretty much always manage to finish it and it's not an unpleasant experience as long as everyone is willing to give it their best.

You totally have a point with the II dungeons. That's why I said "2-ish" when I was talking about rebalancing. I think the median should definitely be below CoA 2 or Banished Cells 2, but still above most "1" dungeons. Darkshade 2 doesn't really get difficult until the very end, and even that's just a healing check if your group isn't mechanically savvy.

That being said, most normal DLC dungeons can be completed by most groups...when there is an experienced player in said group willing to take the lead. If you remove that component, it all crumbles. Before I knew the dungeons, when I was first starting out, I was in some of those groups. Trust me, a few hours is accurate. We can't just assume there will always be an experienced player who is able to take the lead and willing to be patient. That's just a fantasy.

Incidentally, right now, imperial city prison is the only DLC dungeon that is totally noob-friendly. It's long, but there are no road blocks. The rest have some tricky, ill-explained mechanics that can trip up new groups if there isn't anyone to help them. The core issue with DLC dungeons is that they're just throwing so many mechanics at you that you can't brute force your way through, while explaining so little of it. That's not even to mention the veteran versions, where they add the dps checks on top of that. Trying to figure things out by throwing corpses at a problem isn't a fun time for a casual just trying to do a quick little dungeon with the hour or so of free time they happen to have. And then, when you throw these dungeons in with gems like fungal grotto 1, it makes literally no sense.

It's really interesting that you say ICP is easy. That is my least favourite DLC dungeon. I'll take Cradle over it, and they both take about the same time. I enjoy Mazzatun because I can just listen to Heem-Jas all day. Same with the priest in WGT, though I find the Planar Inhibitor fight got a bit more complicated since they decided to make two people get portals in normal. And people don't always have the same tactic for the pinion, so that can go south as well. Other than that, it's a pretty easy dungeon.

I've not run Horns of the Reach a lot yet, Bloodrot a couple of times in Normal and once in vet and one weekend for some reason I got 3 characters into Falkreath as the random on consecutive days. It did not seem overly complicated. Since WGT, ZOS has been pretty good at giving you a preview of mechanics before they become important. Keep your eyes and your ears open and the basics are there.

I know that once you have run the dungeon numerous times, you start seeing the fine points of the mechanics, but the dungeon is doable without that. A friend has been farming the dungeons for motifs on his tank, and he will just take the time to run people through normal and explain the mechanics so that when they get to vet they know what they are doing. He got Mazzatun done, then moved to CoS and is now wrapping up Scalecaller.

I think when the dungeon first comes out, you are more likely to get people who are not experienced, but after a bit, chances of you getting a full group of people who don't know what they are doing start going down.

weedgenius wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

So what normal DLC dungeon would an inexperience player spend "a few hours" in?

How would that same inexperienced player do in Darkshade II? City of Ash II? Crypt of Hearts II?

If you were to order all the DLC dungeons from hardest to easiest, and put City of Ash II in that mix, what would that order look like?

I run normal randoms fairly regularly and I often end up with players who have not run the dungeon yet (and I have not run all of them to the point where I can do them in my sleep), but we pretty much always manage to finish it and it's not an unpleasant experience as long as everyone is willing to give it their best.

Ha! I am a 550 CP healer and I queued for a random normal the day the Wolfhunter DLC dropped (silly me...). Everyone else was around my level and it took over two hours to get through Moon Hunter Keep on normal. Part of that is because people were constantly dropping out and then we would have to wait in the queue again. Some people dropped immediately when they loaded in and realized it was a DLC dungeon, then it was back to waiting. At one point our tank left and the new tank was a Mag Sorc with shock staffs on both bars (ie not a tank).

I run normals pretty regularly, too, and I can honestly say I am filled with dread every single time a DLC screen pops up and I realize what I'm about to get myself into. I'm thinking of finding someone without ESO+ to run with so when we queue together I don't have to worry about it.

I did Moonhunter keep the day after it came out. The day it came out, my guildies were trying it and they quit at the archivist because they couldn't figure out why the tank was just dropping dead.

I got into a group that was in progress on my healer. They were just before the maze. Two people had been there and they were able to give us the basics of the Archivist fight and we got it on the second try. It was pretty cool. Now, I'm not a very good player, so it takes me a few tries to get the awareness of the cues in a fight, but I didn't find it too hard.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

There were two confirmed for 2018. Nothing's been confirmed for 2019 and beyond, and nothing stating that new dungeon content would remain exclusively within paid content.

And, of course, the Horns of the Reach DLC added two fantastic dungeons and showed our continuing commitment to supporting and expanding co-op group play. Expect to see more dungeon content every year, including two in 2018.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26275

But there's a hint in there. Cooperative group play. You rarely get cooperation or strong coordination in random or pickup play. I see random dungeon as a last resort where beggars can't be choosers.

DLC dungeons are opportunities for the game to deep dive into niche lore and tell stories that don't fit into the larger narratives, so they shouldn't be watered down and turned into church group haunted houses. They should feel substantial and challenging. Guild up, find people with the same objective as you, and tackle the content you want to tackle.

If you leave everything up to chance, you're going to have a bad time. Speak up and ask for help. Cooperative play will guide you through learning curves and expedite daily rewards. Yes, the group tool needs a number of refinements. But the best solution for now isn't to mess with content that people already know. It's to make things easier for yourself by taking advantage of all the other social resources in the game.

You can make something lore-rich and a great narrative without bogging it down with slews of complicated mechanics. For many players, these DLC dungeons are beyond challenging. I know that's a difficult concept for a lot of the folks on here, but trust me. I was just getting into the DLC dungeons before they got nerfed last year. So, so many groups just disbanded because we couldn't handle the mechanics in WGT or Mazzatun or Cradle, and usually nobody even knew what was going on. It's gotten better since then, but only for the older ones that were actually nerfed, and they can still easily cause groups to ragequit.

You're coming from a very altruistic, idealistic place. And I respect that. But you have to face reality. I can't even fathom how many players have quit in frustration over these things, when they were only expecting a random dungeon. Think of all the potential players who could have gotten better as they went, then maybe hit a wall in trials (you know, like in every other MMO ever), and had to really take a good hard look at themselves then. Think of all the potential revenue ZOS is losing over these players quitting so quickly.

Putting roadblocks in your standard dungeons is a recipe for failure, and the problem is only getting worse as more DLC dungeons come out. That's why I'm saying we need a standard for difficulty in dungeons. Or separate the pools, but that solution comes at a price.

It's hard to come up with a solution that works in the long term. If you are a new player and are leveling up via dungeons, your random queue will limit you to the easier ones first. But if you wait till you are CP 160 to start running random normals, then you can be thrown into any of them (though I always seem to get certain ones more than others, like FG I, Spindle I, EH I, Tempest Island and Selene's Web).

Should we force people to progress through the zones and do I dungeons first, then the other old "normal" ones, then II dungeons and then finally DLC dungeons? Should we force them to get completion of all dungeons before they can use the "random dungeon" option? Should we try as a community to be more welcoming of inexperienced players?

When they had the free ESO+ weekend, my friend who is farming Scalecaller got a bunch of people in his groups that were checking out the place since they didn't have the DLC. He explained the mechanics as they went along and most of them seemed to think it was a really cool dungeon.

At the end of the day, ZOS has stats on instance completion. If they think that too many groups are falling apart before they complete a specific dungeon, I am sure they will tweak it. But I don't think that is happening that often.

karekiz · September 2018

1. Create a Tank / Heal / DPS test for DLC dungeons. Each character must take the test for each of the roles and pass to enable role selection.
2. The test may be started at 300 CP
3. Seperate DLC random que
4. Add new bonuses for Vet classic / Vet DLC que - Vet classic provides 100% 3 CP on purple completion for reward. - Vet DLC provides the same reward <Classic and DLC are both seperate rewards> for CP, but a bonus Motif from Motif based DLC.
ICP/WGT get 2K gold for the purple clear.

AcadianPaladin · September 2018

What to do about DLC dungeons? I can only speak for me. I avoid dungeons where the mechanics seem too convoluted/irritating to be enjoyable for me. So count me among the ESO+ subscribers who totally avoid DLC dungeons.

Androconium · September 2018

A minimum CP limit wont guarantee that the player understands the dungeon mechanics, nor have an effective build.

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

What to do about DLC dungeons? I can only speak for me. I avoid dungeons where the mechanics seem too convoluted/irritating to be enjoyable for me. So count me among the ESO+ subscribers who totally avoid DLC dungeons.

No, you speak for others, also.

Androconium · September 2018

weedgenius wrote: »

the new tank was a Mag Sorc with shock staffs on both bars (ie not a tank).

This statement means something specific to some people. Yet to others, it is a complete mystery.

ZeroXFF · September 2018

No, please do NOT reduce difficulty of all dungeons to below CoA2 level. I'm always bored to death in any dungeon easier than vBF. I wouldn't even step foot in any non-DLC dungeons if not for the keys or the occasional set I want to try, those dungeons are just boring, especially when I get into groups with potatos when I'm the tank.

I do agree however that having Fungal Grotto 1 and Falkreath Hold in the same pool is insanity, so making it a tiered system is the best solution. Also, I don't think queues would be longer, because more people would be queuing as (semi-fake, ie DDs with a taunt/vigor) tanks/healers for tier 1 for the quick pledge (and actually be capable of fake tanking through it all), and people who get into the harder DLC dungeons won't be leaving them right away or ask to be kicked, because they would be getting what they signed up for. If anything, this would reduce queue and completion times.

Waffennacht · September 2018

Turn random into two

One Non-dlc
One dlc

I think that'd work

firedrgn · September 2018

I think after the first few months or something every time u die in a vet dlc you get a little hint or something about mechanics.

Untill then ill keep queing.

DaveMoeDee · September 2018

Krayl wrote: »

The problem I continue to have with these posts, while I won't completely disagree with them out of hand, is that the daily random is a REWARD for doing something. It's not a handout, or a guarantee. It seems people want their 'free' xp to just sleep through some easy dungeon.

So, I don't totally disagree with the sentiment but lets not lose sight of the fact that nobody is OWED the daily rewards. They are EARNED for using the random dungeon finder, along with the challenges that entails.

That being said, a more robust system would be cool. I would like to see greater rewards for various levels of challenge. A random base game dungeon on normal shouldn't give the same reward as a random DLC veteran accomplished on hard mode.

The "reward" is for using the group finder because they want to encourage people to use the GF. It has nothing to do with difficulty, as you get the same reward for normal or vet. It is 100% only about keeping GF active. Also, people who do not have ESO+ and do not own DLC dungeons get the same reward as people who risk being dropped in a DLC dungeon.

The problem the OP mentions is pulling people in the opposite direction -- away from using group finder. They really need to add a toggle for excluding all DLC dungeons. It is a simple solution and would make people not regret subbing. If such a toggle exists, I would be pretty excited to include DLC dungeons because I would know that it would be a lot less likely to have dead weight in the group.

Waffennacht · September 2018

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Krayl wrote: »

The problem I continue to have with these posts, while I won't completely disagree with them out of hand, is that the daily random is a REWARD for doing something. It's not a handout, or a guarantee. It seems people want their 'free' xp to just sleep through some easy dungeon.

So, I don't totally disagree with the sentiment but lets not lose sight of the fact that nobody is OWED the daily rewards. They are EARNED for using the random dungeon finder, along with the challenges that entails.

That being said, a more robust system would be cool. I would like to see greater rewards for various levels of challenge. A random base game dungeon on normal shouldn't give the same reward as a random DLC veteran accomplished on hard mode.

The "reward" is for using the group finder because they want to encourage people to use the GF. It has nothing to do with difficulty, as you get the same reward for normal or vet. It is 100% only about keeping GF active. Also, people who do not have ESO+ and do not own DLC dungeons get the same reward as people who risk being dropped in a DLC dungeon.

The problem the OP mentions is pulling people in the opposite direction -- away from using group finder. They really need to add a toggle for excluding all DLC dungeons. It is a simple solution and would make people not regret subbing. If such a toggle exists, I would be pretty excited to include DLC dungeons because I would know that it would be a lot less likely to have dead weight in the group.

Absolutely, and I'd love to be able to choose dlc only.

I've done all the non-dlc so many times as is

Mr_Walker · September 2018

Well, y'all complained everything was too easy. Now you got what you wanted you've realised it's causing problems?

Gamers in particular seem to be very poor at foresight.

SupremeRissole · September 2018

I do agree that it is an issue, your sloution however, I do not agree with at all.

DLC dungeons are by far the most fun and challenging ones to choose from. To some players, they are mindlessly easy, to others they are near impossible.
ESO doesnt need to be like the rest ofthe world and compensate for the lowest common denominator. To say that the only hard content for 'elite' players should be vet trials is silly. Some people cant commit to raid times or don't have access to a raid guild. For those players, DLC's are their home. It's far easier to organise 4 people to come together and progress a DLC than to get 12 to progress vMoL. They dont need a nerf.

My suggestion is to remove DLC's from the activity finder. Making it so the only way to enter is as a group travelling to the dungeon itself.
To alleviate the lower pool of players they need to add more incentives to dungeons. Not XP, but maybe a coffer of some sort with maybe crafting mats?

AlnilamE · September 2018

SupremeRissole wrote: »

I do agree that it is an issue, your sloution however, I do not agree with at all.

DLC dungeons are by far the most fun and challenging ones to choose from. To some players, they are mindlessly easy, to others they are near impossible.
ESO doesnt need to be like the rest ofthe world and compensate for the lowest common denominator. To say that the only hard content for 'elite' players should be vet trials is silly. Some people cant commit to raid times or don't have access to a raid guild. For those players, DLC's are their home. It's far easier to organise 4 people to come together and progress a DLC than to get 12 to progress vMoL. They dont need a nerf.

My suggestion is to remove DLC's from the activity finder. Making it so the only way to enter is as a group travelling to the dungeon itself.
To alleviate the lower pool of players they need to add more incentives to dungeons. Not XP, but maybe a coffer of some sort with maybe crafting mats?

And again, that would keep people who want to get those dungeons done from getting a group if they are not in a guild or play at odd hours.

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Krayl wrote: »

The problem I continue to have with these posts, while I won't completely disagree with them out of hand, is that the daily random is a REWARD for doing something. It's not a handout, or a guarantee. It seems people want their 'free' xp to just sleep through some easy dungeon.

So, I don't totally disagree with the sentiment but lets not lose sight of the fact that nobody is OWED the daily rewards. They are EARNED for using the random dungeon finder, along with the challenges that entails.

That being said, a more robust system would be cool. I would like to see greater rewards for various levels of challenge. A random base game dungeon on normal shouldn't give the same reward as a random DLC veteran accomplished on hard mode.

The "reward" is for using the group finder because they want to encourage people to use the GF. It has nothing to do with difficulty, as you get the same reward for normal or vet. It is 100% only about keeping GF active. Also, people who do not have ESO+ and do not own DLC dungeons get the same reward as people who risk being dropped in a DLC dungeon.

The problem the OP mentions is pulling people in the opposite direction -- away from using group finder. They really need to add a toggle for excluding all DLC dungeons. It is a simple solution and would make people not regret subbing. If such a toggle exists, I would be pretty excited to include DLC dungeons because I would know that it would be a lot less likely to have dead weight in the group.

If they add a toggle to exclude the DLC dungeons, then they would have to lower the reward to be like when you run the second random of the day.

McCloskey10_5_13 · September 2018

I vote leave them as they are. I'm slowly learning the normal DLC dungeons and getting more used to the Vet vanillas. There is a sense of progression and working toward something as you work your way up. Also you become more familiar with your character. As I'm beginning to try Vet DLCs I'm nervous and excited. If the difficulty was dropped below VCoA2, then after 3 weeks as a tank I would already be able to complete all of the dungeons in the game and my progression would be done unless I started getting into trials, which is a totally different aspect of the game which is much more time consuming and plays completely differently.

Normal dungeons are there to allow you to learn the mechanics in order to improve toward being able to do the Vet, not as an xp farm. The other night I PUGed vet fang lair and we got our butts kicked by the cadavourous animals because I couldn't control the fight as Tank and the dps couldn't kill the tiger before it started pouncing on people. We weren't good enough. I'll go back to normal to practice more before I give it another shot. So after 8 tries we went and blew through vCoH HM. I don't think all dungeons should be so easy that 4 mid CP strangers only vaguely familiar with each other or the mechanics can steam roll them all. And if you only reduce the difficulty of normal, then they aren't comparable enough to the Vet to prepare you (some would say this is already an issue).

To make normal easy enough to be completed by a group where NO ONE is familiar with mechanics, you have to pull them far far away from the difficulty of Vet, or also reduce Vet to the point that me and any one who has been in the dungeon once or twice can stroll through HM without a wipe. Then who would want to participate?

If you are dropped into a random that's over your head, you always have the option to drop out, take your 15 minute swat on the nose and que for another one, or ask for the group to kick you so you can avoid the timer.

The one thing I will concede is that if they have the 300CP requirement for Vet DLCs, that should apply to random also so a 160 doesn't get dropped into a dungeon they couldn't que for. Not sure if that's taken into account or not.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · September 2018

McCloskey10_5_13 wrote: »

I vote leave them as they are. I'm slowly learning the normal DLC dungeons and getting more used to the Vet vanillas. There is a sense of progression and working toward something as you work your way up. Also you become more familiar with your character. As I'm beginning to try Vet DLCs I'm nervous and excited. If the difficulty was dropped below VCoA2, then after 3 weeks as a tank I would already be able to complete all of the dungeons in the game and my progression would be done unless I started getting into trials, which is a totally different aspect of the game which is much more time consuming and plays completely differently.

Normal dungeons are there to allow you to learn the mechanics in order to improve toward being able to do the Vet, not as an xp farm. The other night I PUGed vet fang lair and we got our butts kicked by the cadavourous animals because I couldn't control the fight as Tank and the dps couldn't kill the tiger before it started pouncing on people. We weren't good enough. I'll go back to normal to practice more before I give it another shot. So after 8 tries we went and blew through vCoH HM. I don't think all dungeons should be so easy that 4 mid CP strangers only vaguely familiar with each other or the mechanics can steam roll them all. And if you only reduce the difficulty of normal, then they aren't comparable enough to the Vet to prepare you (some would say this is already an issue).

To make normal easy enough to be completed by a group where NO ONE is familiar with mechanics, you have to pull them far far away from the difficulty of Vet, or also reduce Vet to the point that me and any one who has been in the dungeon once or twice can stroll through HM without a wipe. Then who would want to participate?

If you are dropped into a random that's over your head, you always have the option to drop out, take your 15 minute swat on the nose and que for another one, or ask for the group to kick you so you can avoid the timer.

The one thing I will concede is that if they have the 300CP requirement for Vet DLCs, that should apply to random also so a 160 doesn't get dropped into a dungeon they couldn't que for. Not sure if that's taken into account or not.

The overlying problem with this train of thought is that it isn't indicative of the casual mindset, or the mindset of the average MMO player. Dungeons are far too early in the average gamer's playtime to be a roadblock. Difficult dungeons for players who aren't even max level cause you to hemorrhage new players and stunts your growth as a game. I'm trying to think bigger picture here, instead of going off anecdotes about certain players enjoying the difficulty.

Dungeons, historically, were never meant to be incredibly difficult. They were meant to be kinda fun, maybe a little tough at times, but nothing crazy. Raids were meant to be the hard stuff. The whole idea of dungeon progression is flawed, and this game's tacit support of it irks me to no end. There should be very, very little variance in the difficulty of your dungeons at a specific mode. All normal dungeons should be roughly as difficult as each other, and all veteran dungeons should be roughly as difficult each other.

Newer players start with normal dungeons, then once they've hit a certain comfort level with normal dungeons, they go to veteran / heroic / etc dungeons. That's when their skills start to get tested, to ease them into trials / raids. Many successful MMOs have done things this way. It works. It has broad appeal to the MMO audience. What we see in this game is dungeon content that is substantially more challenging than most of the vanilla raids.

Do you know why so many players in this game seem to be playing for the elder scrolls atmosphere or the cosmetic (housing + wardrobe) options? It's because so many would-be PvErs get turned off by the nonsensical endgame progression and leave. Even more leave over the combat I'm sure, but that's for another day in another thread.

Rebalancing needs to happen. The model is all borked up in this game.

And perhaps the real answer here is that vanilla content simply wasn't designed in the same way as the new stuff. You know what WoW did when they were faced with this issues? They rebalanced their game, while keeping casual completion rates in mind. Just saying.

Mazbt · September 2018

Normal difficulties don't need to be nerfed further. They are way too easy. You literally have to be a fresh level 15 with zero cps to find normal dungeons hard. I don't think that new of a player should be a focus on balance. Your other points are good though

BuddyAces · September 2018

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

What to do about DLC dungeons? I can only speak for me. I avoid dungeons where the mechanics seem too convoluted/irritating to be enjoyable for me. So count me among the ESO+ subscribers who totally avoid DLC dungeons.

Outside of hard modes on those dlc dungeons, there's barely any different mechanics than other dungeons.

LonePirate · September 2018

Let me give an Awesome to the OP. If ZOS continues releasing dungeons that are close to impossible for a group of new, low CP players to complete even on normal mode, then ZOS is queueing up their game for a death march. The vet versions of dungeons should be challenging but not impossible for a group of players around CP 300-400. Lower CP players should find vet dungeons very difficult while high CP players should still need to work to complete them but not bang their heads against unforgiving content. Limit the near impossible stuff to vet trials.

As such, the difficulty of both normal and vet versions for all DLC dungeons should be lowered while maybe slightly increasing the difficulty of the vet versions of non-DLC I (not II) dungeons.

iiYuki · September 2018

I really dont get why its such an unpopular opinion that there should be inbuilt minimum CP especially on DLC dungeons, it helps lower level players know what dungeons are appropriate for their level and removes the arguments and time wasting caused when low level players join a dungeon that quite frankly they cannot contribute anything meaningful to the dungeon and anyone who argues that "CP doesn't matter" or "level isn't everything" has obviously never been grouped with one or more players who really shouldn't be doing that content.