Best way to report bots...? (and related)

BWS2K · September 2018

Universe wrote: »

I suggested to ZOS to implement auto ban system of bots, active game masters to patrol the servers and other steps.
Hopefully, ZOS will take serious steps to remove the bots from Nirn

I not only 100% support the idea of GM's doing regular patrols but eagerly volunteer myself for duty and preemptively claim jurisdiction in Bal Foyen. I will literally start a guild, lol

BWS2K · September 2018

@ZOS_JesC - I noticed you shutdown a thread on botting and I'm concerned this one may get shutdown as well. I don't honestly mind, I'm newer to the forums and was unfamiliar with how this may not be cool. That said, when we report bots in-game... what, specifically, is the information we should put on the ticket? Time, location, node, server...? Thanks!

Drummerx04 · September 2018

BWS2K wrote: »

@ZOS_JesC - I noticed you shutdown a thread on botting and I'm concerned this one may get shutdown as well. I don't honestly mind, I'm newer to the forums and was unfamiliar with how this may not be cool. That said, when we report bots in-game... what, specifically, is the information we should put on the ticket? Time, location, node, server...? Thanks!

If this gets an actual answer, I'll happily update my addon to accommodate. It's difficult to figure out exactly what goes into the ticket system behind the scenes, so for all I know, everything BotScanner already places in the ticket is redundant.

BWS2K · September 2018

Drummerx04 wrote: »

If this gets an actual answer, I'll happily update my addon to accommodate. It's difficult to figure out exactly what goes into the ticket system behind the scenes, so for all I know, everything BotScanner already places in the ticket is redundant.

That's part of why I was asking, actually. I kept adding in a Thanks! after your messages, lol. If there's something more helpful, I'd love to include it.

Elsonso · September 2018

BWS2K wrote: »

@ZOS_JesC - I noticed you shutdown a thread on botting and I'm concerned this one may get shutdown as well. I don't honestly mind, I'm newer to the forums and was unfamiliar with how this may not be cool. That said, when we report bots in-game... what, specifically, is the information we should put on the ticket? Time, location, node, server...? Thanks!

I dunno whether they will answer. This has been discussed before, without official comment that I recall. I suspect that all they really want is the name of the player being reported, and that is part of the ticket.

There is a little file that goes along with the ticket that tells where you are, who you are, name of who is being reported, time, and location, so it is optional to include that in the text.

I usually have some text that tells why I am reporting and why I think they are a bot. For my own purposes, I include the player's name, since I cannot access that information after the ticket is submitted. I also include the location, again for my own purpose as a reminder.

Jayman1000 · September 2018

BWS2K wrote: »

@ZOS_JesC - I noticed you shutdown a thread on botting and I'm concerned this one may get shutdown as well. I don't honestly mind, I'm newer to the forums and was unfamiliar with how this may not be cool. That said, when we report bots in-game... what, specifically, is the information we should put on the ticket? Time, location, node, server...? Thanks!

Describe that details what make you convinced this is a bot. Also if you could record it with video and upload it and share that link in the report, that should really help them a lot. Just make sure to record the bot when it does something that clearly shows it is a bot. Further make sure to follow up on that first ticket response you get so that you bump them into consider your ticket.

BWS2K · September 2018

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Describe that details what make you convinced this is a bot. Also if you could record it with video and upload it and share that link in the report, that should really help them a lot. Just make sure to record the bot when it does something that clearly shows it is a bot. Further make sure to follow up on that first ticket response you get so that you bump them into consider your ticket.

My upload speeds prohibit that sort of recording habitually but I will make sure to provide those details and follow. Makes sense. Thanks!

Elsonso · September 2018

Jayman1000 wrote: »

BWS2K wrote: »

@ZOS_JesC - I noticed you shutdown a thread on botting and I'm concerned this one may get shutdown as well. I don't honestly mind, I'm newer to the forums and was unfamiliar with how this may not be cool. That said, when we report bots in-game... what, specifically, is the information we should put on the ticket? Time, location, node, server...? Thanks!

Describe that details what make you convinced this is a bot. Also if you could record it with video and upload it and share that link in the report, that should really help them a lot. Just make sure to record the bot when it does something that clearly shows it is a bot. Further make sure to follow up on that first ticket response you get so that you bump them into consider your ticket.

I am not convinced they look at videos of bots. Maybe exploits, but bots? Don't think so.

SockFiddler · September 2018

The more ZoS (or any MMO dev) says about bots and scripting, the more info they give the people who make them to avoid detection. It's really that simple. It's in ZoS's interests to keep the game - and it's paying customer base - running smoothly and bots bother everyone who plays and / or pays.

I'm confident that ZoS have a score of little tricks to determine whether a reported toon is a bot or not, and that they have absolutely no intention of hinting at what they might involve (though common sense will give you a few clues, especially if you've ever had to contact Support about a missing item or accidentally deleted character).

They need the player-base to report suspected bots just so they know where to look: do we want to pay more for our experience, to fund lots of ZoS staff running about everywhere bot hunting (let's not forget the amount of geography here and how many staff that would require for 24-hour coverage), or do we want to take a little responsibility and use our own eyes? As for how long it takes them to take action - if any - that's for them to know. But we're not overrun with bots, so I'm guessing they're holding back the tide.

If you're cynical enough to think that ZoS do nothing more than apathetically read and file your report, don't play the game; if you think so little of the game devs, why are you even here?

yiasemi · September 2018

Ok I'm going to install the app and start reporting them again. If they are so organised as the player above mentions they are making ZOS a lot of money and we can't have that. Well no half cynically jking but they do p me off and if everyone reported them, all the time, ZOS might start realising it is an issue. Clearly if they are buying new accounts a lot there will be a lot of reluctance to get rid of them, we have to show it is ruining our game and we might leave. If not at least we tried, and it livens up farming. They may well be connected to organised crime too, which should be enough for anyone. Although I don't go to Bal Foyen because everyone else does. I like Khenarthi's Roost, which on Asian time is Treasure Island daytime for me. Not many bots there. Just annoying Ozzy/Kiwi farmers.

SockFiddler · September 2018

It's always nice when what you've written gets read properly!

I said exactly the opposite of what you assumed: Zos is taking the issue seriously, bots are a pain that annoys everyone, people do report them all the time.

Elsonso · September 2018

SockFiddler wrote: »

I'm confident that ZoS have a score of little tricks to determine whether a reported toon is a bot or not, and that they have absolutely no intention of hinting at what they might involve (though common sense will give you a few clues, especially if you've ever had to contact Support about a missing item or accidentally deleted character).

I have my own score of little tricks, which I also do not disclose. It is pretty easy to tell that a character is a bot, once you know what to look for. When I want to report them, I tend to wait for the bot to do something specific, then report that behavior. That takes longer, so if I am busy, I just note them in my add-on and move on. If I see them again when I have more time, my add-on will remind me and I will report them.

SockFiddler wrote: »

They need the player-base to report suspected bots just so they know where to look: do we want to pay more for our experience, to fund lots of ZoS staff running about everywhere bot hunting (let's not forget the amount of geography here and how many staff that would require for 24-hour coverage), or do we want to take a little responsibility and use our own eyes? As for how long it takes them to take action - if any - that's for them to know. But we're not overrun with bots, so I'm guessing they're holding back the tide.

It goes in spurts. Sometimes, you can't find a bot in the game no matter how hard you try. Other times, if you stand still too long, one will run you down. It is really hard to say whether ZOS is being extra diligent, something ZOS did in a patch or update momentarily disabled the bot software, or the botters are not under pressure to produce and hold back to preserve the accounts they have.

Yes, I want them to spend money on bot detection and mitigation. If they go the software detection route, I want that to work. If they go the employee GM route, I want them to do that. I can tell you that some bots disappear fast, and some bots don't disappear for months. Both of these conditions can happen during overlapping times. I have been reporting bots for a long time (since 2014), so I have seen first hand that sometimes the bots go away, and sometimes they don't, and there is no obvious reason why there is a difference.

Universe · September 2018

lordrichter wrote: »

SockFiddler wrote: »

I'm confident that ZoS have a score of little tricks to determine whether a reported toon is a bot or not, and that they have absolutely no intention of hinting at what they might involve (though common sense will give you a few clues, especially if you've ever had to contact Support about a missing item or accidentally deleted character).

I have my own score of little tricks, which I also do not disclose. It is pretty easy to tell that a character is a bot, once you know what to look for. When I want to report them, I tend to wait for the bot to do something specific, then report that behavior. That takes longer, so if I am busy, I just note them in my add-on and move on. If I see them again when I have more time, my add-on will remind me and I will report them.

SockFiddler wrote: »

They need the player-base to report suspected bots just so they know where to look: do we want to pay more for our experience, to fund lots of ZoS staff running about everywhere bot hunting (let's not forget the amount of geography here and how many staff that would require for 24-hour coverage), or do we want to take a little responsibility and use our own eyes? As for how long it takes them to take action - if any - that's for them to know. But we're not overrun with bots, so I'm guessing they're holding back the tide.

It goes in spurts. Sometimes, you can't find a bot in the game no matter how hard you try. Other times, if you stand still too long, one will run you down. It is really hard to say whether ZOS is being extra diligent, something ZOS did in a patch or update momentarily disabled the bot software, or the botters are not under pressure to produce and hold back to preserve the accounts they have.

Yes, I want them to spend money on bot detection and mitigation. If they go the software detection route, I want that to work. If they go the employee GM route, I want them to do that. I can tell you that some bots disappear fast, and some bots don't disappear for months. Both of these conditions can happen during overlapping times. I have been reporting bots for a long time (since 2014), so I have seen first hand that sometimes the bots go away, and sometimes they don't, and there is no obvious reason why there is a difference.

I guess it can be called PVB, Player VS Bot

Players have reported and will always(probably) report bots and it became a part of the ESO gameplay a very long time ago.
It is a bad game design that such duties must be carried out by the players while very little is being done by ZOS to prevent/stop the botting.

Elsonso · September 2018

Universe wrote: »

Players have reported and will always(probably) report bots and it became a part of the ESO gameplay a very long time ago.
It is a bad game design that such duties must be carried out by the players while very little is being done by ZOS to prevent/stop the botting.

I would rather that ZOS handle the bot problem without player reporting, to be honest, but that is a very high level of participation on the part of the studio. When players will do it for free, why should the studio pay money.

However, it is not possible to say that ZOS is doing very little. I would suggest that they are understaffed, probably deliberately. They might be heavily dependent upon technology that might not be up to the task. They might not agree with us as to what bots deserve to be actioned. They are unlikely to be doing "very little".

Universe · September 2018

lordrichter wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Players have reported and will always(probably) report bots and it became a part of the ESO gameplay a very long time ago.
It is a bad game design that such duties must be carried out by the players while very little is being done by ZOS to prevent/stop the botting.

I would rather that ZOS handle the bot problem without player reporting, to be honest, but that is a very high level of participation on the part of the studio. When players will do it for free, why should the studio pay money.

However, it is not possible to say that ZOS is doing very little. I would suggest that they are understaffed, probably deliberately. They might be heavily dependent upon technology that might not be up to the task. They might not agree with us as to what bots deserve to be actioned. They are unlikely to be doing "very little".

They may not be doing very little, but they certainly not doing enough

SockFiddler · September 2018

Is there a sudden plague of bots in Tamriel?

No?

Then they're doing enough.

ZOS_JesC · September 2018

Greetings,

When reporting via the in game report function or on site, we ask that you provide as much information as possible. This includes screenshots, time stamps, and videos if you can. The more information provided the better. That being said, reports need to be submitted via a private channel (the in game or report ticket option). While we understand the inclination to rush to the forums to out accounts as bots, as you can imagine not all of the reports are always valid. This falls under our forums naming and shaming rule. We have this rule in place to protect both in game and forum accounts from being accused of something and then harassed for it without any proper investigation.

We've since removed several comments from this thread that contained videos with character names displayed for this reason. We ask that you please consider our naming and shaming rule before posting future content. This way you avoid any disciplinary actions.

HeroOfNone · September 2018

Bot scanner 2000 works wonderful

As for ZOS, I hope they get more functionality to aid in reporting like bot scanner has, but I don't want them to sink their time in anti-bot scanners. Anything I program someone else can program to avoid, which is why a lot of anticheat engines always end up failing. I would prefer thry keep the protection basic and then use player reporting(which they do), GM patrolling (which they do), and analytics on leveling up trends (not sure of they do) to track the issue. While you can out program some thing it's very hard to program against player interactions or to hide trending data you don't know is being tracked.

Universe · September 2018

ZOS_JesC wrote: »

Greetings,

When reporting via the in game report function or on site, we ask that you provide as much information as possible. This includes screenshots, time stamps, and videos if you can. The more information provided the better. That being said, reports need to be submitted via a private channel (the in game or report ticket option). While we understand the inclination to rush to the forums to out accounts as bots, as you can imagine not all of the reports are always valid. This falls under our forums naming and shaming rule. We have this rule in place to protect both in game and forum accounts from being accused of something and then harassed for it without any proper investigation.

We've since removed several comments from this thread that contained videos with character names displayed for this reason. We ask that you please consider our naming and shaming rule before posting future content. This way you avoid any disciplinary actions.

Thank you for your response

POps75p · September 2018

BWS2K wrote: »

Greetings!

I'm just curious what the best way to report bots is. I notice them all the time as I spend a significant portion of my hours running around Bal Foyen for materials, chests, or just as background while chatting on Discord. Is it considered Cheating (for the purposes of reporting you have a dropdown menu), and is there any organized effort against them or is it just tolerated as a thing some lazy folks will always find a way to do?

Thanks!
-BW

the more bots the better the prices will be, zos should sell them for xb1 and Sps. long live the bots

Elsonso · September 2018

HeroOfNone wrote: »

As for ZOS, I hope they get more functionality to aid in reporting like bot scanner has, but I don't want them to sink their time in anti-bot scanners. Anything I program someone else can program to avoid, which is why a lot of anticheat engines always end up failing. I would prefer thry keep the protection basic and then use player reporting(which they do), GM patrolling (which they do), and analytics on leveling up trends (not sure of they do) to track the issue. While you can out program some thing it's very hard to program against player interactions or to hide trending data you don't know is being tracked.

I would like them to invest in anti-bot/anti-cheat. Yes, they have to maintain it, but there are bots or cheaters that I am not sure if I should report. Only ZOS can tell if it is someone cheating, or at least, they have a better chance than I do.

For example, we have a new thread in the forum telling people how to make super fast farming characters. I am seeing these in the game. I have ways to detect whether they are cheating or legit, but recent changes have made it much harder to tell from my perspective. I figure ZOS can tell, but I don't want to be doing a "report them all, let God sort it out" thing by reporting people who are doing nothing wrong. Yet, if they are using the existence of these new builds as a smoke screen to run a cheat program instead of the build, I want them out of the game.

ZOS needs to be able to detect when people are running cheat programs because it is hard and unreliable for the players to do it. That capability would also stand a good chance of detecting the bot programs.

P.S. - thanks for the comment, @ZOS_JesC

BWS2K · September 2018

Thanks, @ZOS_JesC ! I think I've had all my questions answered as much as possible, so I'm going to return to /stealthmode, but thank you all for your input and help. Happy Gaming!

-BW

Starlock · September 2018

If only I knew how to include screenshots on console. Bot reporting on console in general is a pain in the rear. I still do it, but boy, it's unwieldy.

HeroOfNone · September 2018

lordrichter wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

As for ZOS, I hope they get more functionality to aid in reporting like bot scanner has, but I don't want them to sink their time in anti-bot scanners. Anything I program someone else can program to avoid, which is why a lot of anticheat engines always end up failing. I would prefer thry keep the protection basic and then use player reporting(which they do), GM patrolling (which they do), and analytics on leveling up trends (not sure of they do) to track the issue. While you can out program some thing it's very hard to program against player interactions or to hide trending data you don't know is being tracked.

I would like them to invest in anti-bot/anti-cheat. Yes, they have to maintain it, but there are bots or cheaters that I am not sure if I should report. Only ZOS can tell if it is someone cheating, or at least, they have a better chance than I do.

For example, we have a new thread in the forum telling people how to make super fast farming characters. I am seeing these in the game. I have ways to detect whether they are cheating or legit, but recent changes have made it much harder to tell from my perspective. I figure ZOS can tell, but I don't want to be doing a "report them all, let God sort it out" thing by reporting people who are doing nothing wrong. Yet, if they are using the existence of these new builds as a smoke screen to run a cheat program instead of the build, I want them out of the game.

ZOS needs to be able to detect when people are running cheat programs because it is hard and unreliable for the players to do it. That capability would also stand a good chance of detecting the bot programs.

P.S. - thanks for the comment, @ZOS_JesC

They have basic stuff looking for them but I'm telling you, from one who used to search and code stuff for bots back in the days of halflife multiplayer mods, there are few ways as effective as getting an experienced player watching this stuff. If you think you have a relevant metric to detect bots, let ZOS know! I'm certain they will add any simple checks in.

But be aware if you're looking for a complex "watch for x, see Y occur over Z seconds = ban" those variables will be tracked by the bot trackers, tweaked, and programmed around. Looking for a 3rd party application that could be running commands? You could think you'll catch them, until you realize most run this in a virtual desktop where the bot program is just feeding in commands to the virtual desktop. Or even more simple, they change the name to a valid application to avoid detection.

Simple detects are good to keep the script kiddies out, but investing that much development time into what could be better done with reports and GMS isn't going to show great cost for benefit.

Elsonso · September 2018

HeroOfNone wrote: »

They have basic stuff looking for them but I'm telling you, from one who used to search and code stuff for bots back in the days of halflife multiplayer mods, there are few ways as effective as getting an experienced player watching this stuff. If you think you have a relevant metric to detect bots, let ZOS know! I'm certain they will add any simple checks in.

Trained spotters need more information than what ZOS provides to the users. Often, this lack of information is for a good reason, and should not be provided. Again, why ZOS is better suited to do this sort of thing.

HeroOfNone · September 2018

lordrichter wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

They have basic stuff looking for them but I'm telling you, from one who used to search and code stuff for bots back in the days of halflife multiplayer mods, there are few ways as effective as getting an experienced player watching this stuff. If you think you have a relevant metric to detect bots, let ZOS know! I'm certain they will add any simple checks in.

Trained spotters need more information than what ZOS provides to the users. Often, this lack of information is for a good reason, and should not be provided. Again, why ZOS is better suited to do this sort of thing.

You can still provide that information directly through email or feedback, I did not intend it to be placed on the forums.

bethsheba · September 2018

ZOS_JesC wrote: »

Greetings,

When reporting via the in game report function or on site, we ask that you provide as much information as possible. This includes screenshots, time stamps, and videos if you can. The more information provided the better. That being said, reports need to be submitted via a private channel (the in game or report ticket option). While we understand the inclination to rush to the forums to out accounts as bots, as you can imagine not all of the reports are always valid. This falls under our forums naming and shaming rule. We have this rule in place to protect both in game and forum accounts from being accused of something and then harassed for it without any proper investigation.

We've since removed several comments from this thread that contained videos with character names displayed for this reason. We ask that you please consider our naming and shaming rule before posting future content. This way you avoid any disciplinary actions.

Problem: by the time you get to the submit portion and check screenshot box, the bots are long gone.

Problem: you can't attach screenshots or video from your pc to the ticket reporting the bots, you can only select the checkbox to include a screenshot which is taken by the system when you hit submit.

EmEm_Oh · September 2018

It's too bad ZOS couldn't make a 6mil HP superboss from IC, and have it appear when the area senses that a person or group of people were going in circles by virtually the same movements. Watching that would be rather entertaining.

Have a voice that even let them know the jig was up from Molag Ball himself.

BWS2K · September 2018

ZOS_JesC wrote: »

Greetings,

When reporting via the in game report function or on site, we ask that you provide as much information as possible. This includes screenshots, time stamps, and videos if you can. The more information provided the better. That being said, reports need to be submitted via a private channel (the in game or report ticket option). While we understand the inclination to rush to the forums to out accounts as bots, as you can imagine not all of the reports are always valid. This falls under our forums naming and shaming rule. We have this rule in place to protect both in game and forum accounts from being accused of something and then harassed for it without any proper investigation.

We've since removed several comments from this thread that contained videos with character names displayed for this reason. We ask that you please consider our naming and shaming rule before posting future content. This way you avoid any disciplinary actions.

@ZOS_JesC - sorry to be a pest. I found another bot this morning and I reported it in-game but as far as the report ticket option - there isn't a place that I see to do it? I'm on the Support page, Submit Ticket, Steam, Report Player, Cheating/Exploiting link but it just tells me to report in-game. I have a screenshot - how can I send that along? Do I need to take a screenshot, alt-tab out, upload the screenshot to some photo site, and then copy/paste the link into the report I make in-game?

Elsonso · September 2018

BWS2K wrote: »

ZOS_JesC wrote: »

Greetings,

When reporting via the in game report function or on site, we ask that you provide as much information as possible. This includes screenshots, time stamps, and videos if you can. The more information provided the better. That being said, reports need to be submitted via a private channel (the in game or report ticket option). While we understand the inclination to rush to the forums to out accounts as bots, as you can imagine not all of the reports are always valid. This falls under our forums naming and shaming rule. We have this rule in place to protect both in game and forum accounts from being accused of something and then harassed for it without any proper investigation.

We've since removed several comments from this thread that contained videos with character names displayed for this reason. We ask that you please consider our naming and shaming rule before posting future content. This way you avoid any disciplinary actions.

@ZOS_JesC - sorry to be a pest. I found another bot this morning and I reported it in-game but as far as the report ticket option - there isn't a place that I see to do it? I'm on the Support page, Submit Ticket, Steam, Report Player, Cheating/Exploiting link but it just tells me to report in-game. I have a screenshot - how can I send that along? Do I need to take a screenshot, alt-tab out, upload the screenshot to some photo site, and then copy/paste the link into the report I make in-game?

Write a ticket in the game. (Edit: you can use the addon to do this. Note the ticket number, if you write more than one)

Log into the web support site with your account name and password. Under "My Support" you will find all of your tickets, in reverse chronological order. Click on it to open it. Near the bottom, you can attach additional files or add to the report.