Seeking a Constuctive Discussion About Shieldbreaker.

Casul · September 2018

Hello,

I would like to start by saying I don’t really care about shield breaker as I play stamina characters so I don’t generally use shields. But with that said there has been a lot of discussion over shield breaker ever since it’s release.

I was curious if this idea would be better or worst.

Completely overhaul the 5 piece bonus on shield breaker to this.

When you damage any enemy with a damage shield you inflict a mark on the enemy. This mark absorbs the damage you inflict up to 10,000 ( Once you inflict more then 10,000, damage begins applying to the shield like normal) and stores the damage for 6 seconds. After 6 seconds the damage is released upon the target ( 5,000 oblivion damage in PvP at max). If a new damage shield is applied then the damage activated instantly but is reduced to half the stored value and is instead applied to the new shield (2,500 shield damage damage). Only one mark can be active at a time (you can still have multiple marks on one person if applied from different applicators). The mark has an internal cooldown of 12 seconds. This effect has severe diminishing returns when applied by multiple sources. (Only stores 10% of normal value)

So essentially if I hit a sorcerer with this set and apply 10,000 damage there will be two scenarios

1) The damage shield expires and the sorcerer takes 5,000 oblivion damage as a result. This would pressure magical characters to build into either more sustainable shields or into alternative ways of mitigating damage.

2) The sorcerer applies there damage shield early taking only 2,500 instead of 5,000 which applies to the new Danae shield. This requires sorcerer to be more precise with shield timing because if they recast shields to often then their sustain will take a hit. Otherwise this promotes counter play in my opinion.

I feel this helps against the light attack complaints people normally have and also helps support counter play by promoting better skill rotation. With its single use application and a 12 seconds internal cooldown it would be something used for pressure but at the same time would not be to overbearing that it completely shuts down any resistance.

I will also add that this mark would be purgeable.

To add on the diminishing returns let’s say that we have 3 applicators.

At 1 max damage would be 10,000
At 2 max damage would be 11,000
At 3 max damage would be 12,000

So it would be a linear increase after the first application. I feel this is fair because even at 11 applications the max damage in PvP is 10,000. Which is reasonable considering the 5 piece set only applies to shields so could be a complete waste if used against other builds. Otherwise if a new damaged shield was applied it would just be reduced by 5,000.

Lastly I will give one hypothetical fight to just ensure clarification on its effect.

A warden hits a sorcerer for 12,000 damage on his combo. The first 10,000 is absorbed and stored , while the remaining 2,000 is applied to the damage shield. Once the sorcerers shield expires he will take an additional 5,000 oblivion damage.

If the sorcerer applies another shield early his new shield gets reduced by 2,500 but risks damaging his magical sustain as a result.

I should add that all damage values and internal cooldown values are definitely up for criticism. I encourage healthy debate and discussion.

redspecter23 · September 2018

I get your intent is to make the ability a bit more friendly to sorcs, but you've massively overcomplicated it. If the ability is overpowered against one playstyle, the intent is for that particular playstyle to adjust so that shieldbreaker becomes less useful. Once the usefulness hits near zero, the targetted playstyle becomes viable again as the players become complacent and the cycle repeats. It's a good idea in theory adding these "silver bullet" sets that can cripple one type of toon, but in practice it's either overpowered or useless depending on the situation.

Short answer, if sorcs didn't rely so heavily on shields (which can be a very potent defense obviously) then they won't be crippled by a niche set bonus. You're going all in glass cannon knowing the risks ahead of time. ZOS has added this risk factor to force players to make that choice.

Casul · September 2018

@redspecter23 I definitely agree it is over complicated but I figured at its current state the opposite side feels it’s completely broken, and this is me trying to extend an olive branch and make everyone happy. But I definitely value your opinion and even though I may not find a simpler alternative I will evaluate it justly.

I also agree that with this niche set being either overpowered or near useless is another big problem to overcome as the balance factor doesn’t generally stay in the middle. Regardless I appreciate the input.

redspecter23 · September 2018

That's the big issue with any bonus designed specifically to target something. It will either be great or horrible. If you're to change this set, I suggest completely removing the aspect that targets certain builds. Right now, it cripples shielded players and does nothing to unshielded players. A similar set without that restriction is sloads. Does oblivion damage to everyone across the board. It was designed to be an effective tool against tanks (according to ZOS) but ended up dominating everything.

Figure out what you want the set to do and apply focus to that goal. Right now you're still tinkering with it being a tool against shield users and the end result will be the same. It will either overperform in niche situations or be useless and unused.

Ankael07 · September 2018

I just want the set to work as its intended. Against shieldstacking ONLY. It should only trigger when the enemy have 2 major shields at the same time.

Atm it triggers on single shields or even small shields like Templar's or DKs obsidian shield.

Casul · September 2018

@Ankael07 do you think the alternative I have suggested would succeed better if it had higher damage but activated only when 2 shields or more where active?

redspecter23 · September 2018

If you're looking at applying it only when 2 shields are active then you are potentially giving the target a viable defense and reducing the niche role to punishing shield stackers only. If you use one shield you will be safe. It has some counterplay now. Smart players of course will just not apply a second shield during this time. That may or may not be a large enough benefit to consider using the set.

Perhaps a bonus like this.

Deals X poison damage to a shielded target (this damage gets applied to the shield unlike oblivion damage so there is an impact if you stack enough other damage sources but the shielded player can defend)
If the target has more than one shield active, this ability also deals massive oblivion damage as well.

Basically it still does nothing to unshielded targets. Has a minor effect against shields and should annihilate double shielded targets.

Casul · September 2018

Ok so how would we go about the multiple stacks etc? This was another complaints. I suggested a linear increase of 10% per application after the first:

Ankael07 · September 2018

5000k damage every 6 seconds is less than half of what the set does right now so it wont be good.

Casul · September 2018

But I figured because it is a timed burst it could have more counter play, but honestly I do like the idea of it being more effective against multiple shields.

Also it would be 5,000 every 12 because of internal cooldown

redspecter23 · September 2018

When you hit a shielded target with a light or heavy attack, deals X poison damage over 6 seconds.
If the target has more than one shield active, this ability removes all shields and applies a 6 second immunity to all shields (they can't be shielded at all during this time). (6 second cooldown)

This may be more effective. You apply a dot to a shielded target which is a small amount of pressure. A double shielded target will lose all shields for 6 seconds putting extreme pressure on them as well as having the dot still ticking with no shield defense available. Stacking multiple players shoudln't do much with this ability as the duration will always be as long as the cooldown regardless of the number of players hitting them.

Kadoin · September 2018

Ankael07 wrote: »

I just want the set to work as its intended. Against shieldstacking ONLY. It should only trigger when the enemy have 2 major shields at the same time.

Atm it triggers on single shields or even small shields like Templar's or DKs obsidian shield.

Don't forget it works on reinforced too (CP skill).

Maryal · September 2018

I like shield-breaker the way it is. It has it's place/purpose and doesn't need to be changed.

I don't use shields, I am a stamblade in medium armor. When I take damage, my first instinct is to move, LOS, roll-dodge, heal, you know ... do something, anything except just stand there ignoring the fact that I took damage. I can't tell you how many times I have hit a sorc (medium range) with a bow, but the sorc just stands there preoccupied with casting their light/heavy attacks (via staff) at someone else. After I hit them a few times (with my bow) they die ... but they didn't have to die. All they had to do was be more reactive ... like move / LOS after the first hit, and heal up.

The problem: When you over-rely on shields to do your 'heavy lifting' (defensively speaking), your other other defensive skills either become weaker (or you never hone them) since they are used much less, and as a result, you're very strong shield-defense ends up developing a big 'Achilles heel' (shield breaker).

Players who habitually combine shield usage with their other defensive skills have a much more balanced defense and, as a result, are much more difficult to kill ... meaning shield breaker is not likely to kill them.

Shields are an important part of your defensive took-kit ... but ...your other defensive skills are just as important and need to be used in conjunction with your shields. Players who have not honed their 'other' defensive skills, or use them only as an 'after-thought' are the ones most hurt by shield breaker.

Stigant · September 2018

It's called shield breaker, why doesn't it break shields instead of ignoring them and resists on top of that? If they can make sets that deal flat physical damage to cced target like doleymish, they sure can make that happen with target having absorb shield. Duh...

Make it +X phys damage on LA and +Y on HA

Edit: I don't even PvP on shield reliant class, except maybe warden with shimmering

Pastas · September 2018

BuildMan wrote: »

Hello,

I would like to start by saying I don’t really care about shield breaker as I play stamina characters so I don’t generally use shields. But with that said there has been a lot of discussion over shield breaker ever since it’s release.

I was curious if this idea would be better or worst.

Completely overhaul the 5 piece bonus on shield breaker to this.

When you damage any enemy with a damage shield you inflict a mark on the enemy. This mark absorbs the damage you inflict up to 10,000 ( Once you inflict more then 10,000, damage begins applying to the shield like normal) and stores the damage for 6 seconds. After 6 seconds the damage is released upon the target ( 5,000 oblivion damage in PvP at max). If a new damage shield is applied then the damage activated instantly but is reduced to half the stored value and is instead applied to the new shield (2,500 shield damage damage). Only one mark can be active at a time (you can still have multiple marks on one person if applied from different applicators). The mark has an internal cooldown of 12 seconds. This effect has severe diminishing returns when applied by multiple sources. (Only stores 10% of normal value)

So essentially if I hit a sorcerer with this set and apply 10,000 damage there will be two scenarios

1) The damage shield expires and the sorcerer takes 5,000 oblivion damage as a result. This would pressure magical characters to build into either more sustainable shields or into alternative ways of mitigating damage.

2) The sorcerer applies there damage shield early taking only 2,500 instead of 5,000 which applies to the new Danae shield. This requires sorcerer to be more precise with shield timing because if they recast shields to often then their sustain will take a hit. Otherwise this promotes counter play in my opinion.

I feel this helps against the light attack complaints people normally have and also helps support counter play by promoting better skill rotation. With its single use application and a 12 seconds internal cooldown it would be something used for pressure but at the same time would not be to overbearing that it completely shuts down any resistance.

I will also add that this mark would be purgeable.

To add on the diminishing returns let’s say that we have 3 applicators.

At 1 max damage would be 10,000
At 2 max damage would be 11,000
At 3 max damage would be 12,000

So it would be a linear increase after the first application. I feel this is fair because even at 11 applications the max damage in PvP is 10,000. Which is reasonable considering the 5 piece set only applies to shields so could be a complete waste if used against other builds. Otherwise if a new damaged shield was applied it would just be reduced by 5,000.

Lastly I will give one hypothetical fight to just ensure clarification on its effect.

A warden hits a sorcerer for 12,000 damage on his combo. The first 10,000 is absorbed and stored , while the remaining 2,000 is applied to the damage shield. Once the sorcerers shield expires he will take an additional 5,000 oblivion damage.

If the sorcerer applies another shield early his new shield gets reduced by 2,500 but risks damaging his magical sustain as a result.

I should add that all damage values and internal cooldown values are definitely up for criticism. I encourage healthy debate and discussion.

It would be the longest set tooltip ever seen.

Galarthor · September 2018

redspecter23 wrote: »

I get your intent is to make the ability a bit more friendly to sorcs, but you've massively overcomplicated it. If the ability is overpowered against one playstyle, the intent is for that particular playstyle to adjust so that shieldbreaker becomes less useful. Once the usefulness hits near zero, the targetted playstyle becomes viable again as the players become complacent and the cycle repeats. It's a good idea in theory adding these "silver bullet" sets that can cripple one type of toon, but in practice it's either overpowered or useless depending on the situation.

Short answer, if sorcs didn't rely so heavily on shields (which can be a very potent defense obviously) then they won't be crippled by a niche set bonus. You're going all in glass cannon knowing the risks ahead of time. ZOS has added this risk factor to force players to make that choice.

True. But it is imbalanced if that "silver bullet" only exists for one particular playstyle and all other playstyles are left alone ... even if they are stronger or cancerous. And no ... Knight Slayer doesn't even come close to being a Shield Breaker equivalent to Heavy Armor tanks.

And tbh, there shouldn't be sets like that in the first place. ZOS should fix the class balance and remove Oblivion damage from the game or change it's effect into something for PvE.

Maryal wrote: »

I like shield-breaker the way it is. It has it's place/purpose and doesn't need to be changed.

I don't use shields, I am a stamblade in medium armor. When I take damage, my first instinct is to move, LOS, roll-dodge, heal, you know ... do something, anything except just stand there ignoring the fact that I took damage. I can't tell you how many times I have hit a sorc (medium range) with a bow, but the sorc just stands there preoccupied with casting their light/heavy attacks (via staff) at someone else. After I hit them a few times (with my bow) they die ... but they didn't have to die. All they had to do was be more reactive ... like move / LOS after the first hit, and heal up.

The problem: When you over-rely on shields to do your 'heavy lifting' (defensively speaking), your other other defensive skills either become weaker (or you never hone them) since they are used much less, and as a result, you're very strong shield-defense ends up developing a big 'Achilles heel' (shield breaker).

Players who habitually combine shield usage with their other defensive skills have a much more balanced defense and, as a result, are much more difficult to kill ... meaning shield breaker is not likely to kill them.

Shields are an important part of your defensive took-kit ... but ...your other defensive skills are just as important and need to be used in conjunction with your shields. Players who have not honed their 'other' defensive skills, or use them only as an 'after-thought' are the ones most hurt by shield breaker.

Great. Give us a Dodge-Breaker, Block-Breaker, Cloak-Breaker, and Heal-Breaker set then. Stamina builds over-rely on dodge and block. Mag Nbs over-rely on cloak and Templars on heals. Make it fair instead of just f***ing over 1 to 2 magicka classes and let the rest continue their "overreliance" unhindered.

Emma_Overload · September 2018

The only way to "fix" Shield Breaker is to get rid of it. Oblivion damage is a joke and does not belong in the hands of players. No class requires Oblivion damage to kill any other class in the game. If you are a DK or NB or Warden or Templar and you can't kill Sorcs, go out and learn how GOOD DKs and NBs and Wardens and Templars kill Sorcs... ALL OF THEM have a strategy that works! NOBODY needs Shield Breaker to kill shield stackers.

However, if they really must have a set that hurts damage shield users, make Shield Breaker do something like Durok's Bane: apply a 30% debuff to the shield size for 4 seconds or whatever.

Aedaryl · September 2018

Shield Breaker : When land a light attack on a shielded target, deal 2500 additional damage to the shield.

Simple, no ?

Casul · September 2018

@Aedaryl do you suggest 2,500 damage in PvP or would that value be affected by battle spirit? Personally I would think combining this idea and the one mentioned above would be great.

Revision

When you hit an enemy player’s damage shield with a light attack you deal 2,500 poison damage. If this player has more then one damage shield active the damage is increased to 5,000 poison damage.

I also had another thought so maybe you could all critique it.

When you deal light attack damage to a damage shield you deal 1000 poison damage. Every consecutive light attack doubles this value. Resets if a new damage shield is activated.

So basically

1st attack = 500
2nd attack = 1000
3rd attack = 2,000
4th attack = 4,000
5th attack = 8,000

I like this idea because it also lets shield breaker has a niche purpose in PvE. Also this damage should be able to roll over one the shield is broken, so if you hit them with the 8k proc and it only has 3k left then 5k will roll onto the health bar and be mitigated through resistances and healing.

Gilvoth · September 2018

just like @Maryal said:
"I like shield-breaker the way it is. It has it's place/purpose and doesn't need to be changed."
and i agree, i feel the same way and so do millions of other people like us that use it against shield stacking sorcerers.

last night i watched a sorcerer insta-Gank 2 people in under 3 seconds with only a few hits, and the whole time he had his shields stacked soo heavy that he did not even have red health showing. (they did NO damage to him at all even though they were both attacking him!)

sorcerers RUN and RACE to kill people in cryodiil, and they kill people FAST, but here on the forums they speak like they are sooo weak and don't do much Damage.
but we all know truth, sorcerers are walking land mine High Damage Tanks.

shield breaker set balances that problem, because it gives us a fighting chance against them.

Aedaryl · September 2018

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

just like @Maryal said:
"I like shield-breaker the way it is. It has it's place/purpose and doesn't need to be changed."
and i agree, i feel the same way and so do millions of other people like us that use it against shield stacking sorcerers.

last night i watched a sorcerer insta-Gank 2 people in under 3 seconds with only a few hits, and the whole time he had his shields stacked soo heavy that he did not even have red health showing. (they did NO damage to him at all even though they were both attacking him!)

sorcerers RUN and RACE to kill people in cryodiil, and they kill people FAST, but here on the forums they speak like they are sooo weak and don't do much Damage.
but we all know truth, sorcerers are walking land mine High Damage Tanks.

shield breaker set balances that problem, because it gives us a fighting chance against them.

lol

Please tell me more about your magsorc story, I never laughed that much

Lord_Eomer · September 2018

redspecter23 wrote: »

I get your intent is to make the ability a bit more friendly to sorcs, but you've massively overcomplicated it. If the ability is overpowered against one playstyle, the intent is for that particular playstyle to adjust so that shieldbreaker becomes less useful. Once the usefulness hits near zero, the targetted playstyle becomes viable again as the players become complacent and the cycle repeats. It's a good idea in theory adding these "silver bullet" sets that can cripple one type of toon, but in practice it's either overpowered or useless depending on the situation.

Short answer, if sorcs didn't rely so heavily on shields (which can be a very potent defense obviously) then they won't be crippled by a niche set bonus. You're going all in glass cannon knowing the risks ahead of time. ZOS has added this risk factor to force players to make that choice.

You definitely play as Mag Toon with big shield stacking!

Leave shieldbreaker set as is, its a treatment for big shield stacking!

redspecter23 · September 2018

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I get your intent is to make the ability a bit more friendly to sorcs, but you've massively overcomplicated it. If the ability is overpowered against one playstyle, the intent is for that particular playstyle to adjust so that shieldbreaker becomes less useful. Once the usefulness hits near zero, the targetted playstyle becomes viable again as the players become complacent and the cycle repeats. It's a good idea in theory adding these "silver bullet" sets that can cripple one type of toon, but in practice it's either overpowered or useless depending on the situation.

Short answer, if sorcs didn't rely so heavily on shields (which can be a very potent defense obviously) then they won't be crippled by a niche set bonus. You're going all in glass cannon knowing the risks ahead of time. ZOS has added this risk factor to force players to make that choice.

You definitely play as Mag Toon with big shield stacking!

Leave shieldbreaker set as is, its a treatment for big shield stacking!

I actually really like shieldbreaker and very rarely play on a mag toon in pvp. I'm just trying to add some theoretical conversation here. In a theoretical situation where ZOS decides shieldbreaker is unhealthy, what would it change into? I think that's the topic here. My preference is to leave it as is and even add more niche targetted sets at other playstyles. As mentioned above, sets that destroy perma dodgers, heavy healers, tower farmers, tree huggers, gankers. I might even be a bit too far leaning on that viewpoint. My guess is that the majority of players dislike these silver bullet sets, but I do rather enjoy the ability to have a niche target that you excel at killing at the cost of being weaker against other builds.

ak_pvp · September 2018

It just needs a massive nerf. Its a BS hardcounter which ends up as:
1) Die.
2) Waste all your resources healing and die.
3) Change your entire build.

It should just be changed to "your deal X% more dmg to shields" then you actually have to actively damage them rather than just being a light attack hero.

idk · September 2018

I think the suggestion in the OP is overly complicated as it is requiring to much on the servers to track what is happening so the correct damage is being applied. The followup OP made about it only working when 2 shields are applied essentially makes the set much less useful for it's design plus adds to what needs to be tracked.

It is extremely unlikely Zos would consider anything that is complicated as the implementation becomes much more effort that is also increases the chance there will be a bug or exploit.

Zer0oo · September 2018

Players use this set to get an auto win against sorcerer and anything that needs shields to survive and they expect to automatically win if they use this set. The set does exactly that, any somehow even a little good pvp player will destroy a shield user with it especial if they outnumber the player.

But they are most of the time really bad players who refuse to actually learn to play and don't know that they will be focused hard from the other player. Also just look at the forum and who the players are that are always defending this set. And you know it is a set for bad pvp player to get an AUTOMATICAL win

Casul · September 2018

@idk what about my idea here

BuildMan wrote: »

When you deal light attack damage to a damage shield you deal 1000 poison damage. Every consecutive light attack doubles this value. Resets if a new damage shield is activated.

So basically

1st attack = 500
2nd attack = 1000
3rd attack = 2,000
4th attack = 4,000
5th attack = 8,000

I like this idea because it also lets shield breaker has a niche purpose in PvE. Also this damage should be able to roll over one the shield is broken, so if you hit them with the 8k proc and it only has 3k left then 5k will roll onto the health bar and be mitigated through resistances and healing.

Toc de Malsvi · September 2018

Really it should be more along the lines of deals 500 - 1000(physical/disease/poison doesn't matter which) on light attacks to all players, deals 3000 dmg on light attacks to shields. No oblivion damage and weak but not useless against non-shielded targets. Something along those lines, something that still shreds shields but doesn't bypass their defenses.

Although I still haven't seen this almighty sorc killing set drive any sorcs out of Cyrodiil or BG's, only anecdotal accounts of its power. Even when sorcs have been considered strong-OP, players weren't rushing to equip this set.

Biro123 · September 2018

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Really it should be more along the lines of deals 500 - 1000(physical/disease/poison doesn't matter which) on light attacks to all players, deals 3000 dmg on light attacks to shields. No oblivion damage and weak but not useless against non-shielded targets. Something along those lines, something that still shreds shields but doesn't bypass their defenses.

Although I still haven't seen this almighty sorc killing set drive any sorcs out of Cyrodiil or BG's, only anecdotal accounts of its power. Even when sorcs have been considered strong-OP, players weren't rushing to equip this set.

That's cus when they were strong, nb's were just as strong, and sloads > all.
If not for sloads (and the false perception that it was strong v sorcs), then they would have all ran to SB.

idk · September 2018

BuildMan wrote: »

@idk what about my idea here

BuildMan wrote: »

When you deal light attack damage to a damage shield you deal 1000 poison damage. Every consecutive light attack doubles this value. Resets if a new damage shield is activated.

So basically

1st attack = 500
2nd attack = 1000
3rd attack = 2,000
4th attack = 4,000
5th attack = 8,000

I like this idea because it also lets shield breaker has a niche purpose in PvE. Also this damage should be able to roll over one the shield is broken, so if you hit them with the 8k proc and it only has 3k left then 5k will roll onto the health bar and be mitigated through resistances and healing.

It is a poor idea on multiple levels. For starters it removes the intended purpose of the set, hence the name, since it changes the damage to something that shields mitigate.

Further, the set was clearly designed with PvP in mind and there is no reason to make is mildly useful in PvE.

Guppet · September 2018

It’s fine as it is. If you don’t go against a shield user you have no 5 piece bonus at all. Your suggestion would nerf it massively while giving no up sides. It has the whiff of sorcery.