DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

This is very cool idea. Might be tricky to balance the different forms of increased damage (crit chance, crit damage, pen, etc) but would add some interesting diversity. The biggest problem would really be that most of these options (with the exception of "higher damage on shields") heavily privilege shield users.

I like the idea of skills giving you regens/ultimate on kills or hits, too, as it makes the execute less of a true execute and more of a skillshot with a reward attached.

Correct me if I'm wrong but executes currently work best against shield users since healing ward does not immediately take them out of execute range unlike actual heals. No need to change current executes. They all work fine and fit their builds. With maybe the exception of radiant, but I've never tried it since the patch.

@HeroOfNone Most executes already behave very differently. I'm assuming you are addressing the classes that lack executes, namely DK and Warden. The magden needs a real identity before an execute can be discussed. mDK could use some love in that department, but I don't think damage modifiers would be the way to go. At that point it's no different than percentages really.

Utility would be a better, albeit more difficult approach. Increased DoT damage is always discussed. But thinking outside the box, like having all DoTs refresh on a target in execute could also work. It would allow mDKs to focus on heavier hitting direct damage skills.

tl;dr:
any form of damage bonus can be broken down into percentages. While your suggestions increase diversity if applied, they limit versatility among currently existing executes.. You need to think mechanics/utility and how the ease/versatility of the execute scales with damage

IAVITNI wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

This is very cool idea. Might be tricky to balance the different forms of increased damage (crit chance, crit damage, pen, etc) but would add some interesting diversity. The biggest problem would really be that most of these options (with the exception of "higher damage on shields") heavily privilege shield users.

I like the idea of skills giving you regens/ultimate on kills or hits, too, as it makes the execute less of a true execute and more of a skillshot with a reward attached.

Correct me if I'm wrong but executes currently work best against shield users since healing ward does not immediately take them out of execute range unlike actual heals. No need to change current executes. They all work fine and fit their builds. With maybe the exception of radiant, but I've never tried it since the patch.

Right--but if an execute was changed from dealing increased damage to having increased penetration (or crit), THEN they would essentially not scale up at all against shield users. Not saying that's a fatal flaw in the idea, just that it would need consideration.

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Dragon Knights (stam/magic), Wardens(stam/magic), and stamina templars, which lack a class execute would one spot to add these in. But given the diversity of side abilities here we could also adjust other current executes, depending on what the balance called for.

The magicka warden issue I sort of view as a destruction staff issue, as cold damage is their top synergy but ZOS made its heavy attacks work like a taunt. Solve the destro staff issue, solve mage wardens IMO.

I like the idea of refreshing dots on DKs, but also think ultimate boosting or regens might also help. Where DKs really hurt thsee last few patches is resource generation, which forces the heavy attack meta a lot. More resources returned by regens or by spamming ultimates the more damage increases. Still iffy how that plays out in PVP though.

And yeah, pentration & crit chance would impact damage, however given the setup for many groups now I feel it would have a rounded approach.
Crit % - most will try to keep around 50%, as high crit chance seems to drop down exponentially as it gets too high. So a high damage build class like a warden/DK might take more benefit than a nightblade.
Penetration - something like this would benefit most in 4 man dungeons and PVP, but less in trials where most plan for 100% penetration against most mobs. Maybe players would opt to skip spiggans/spinner for other sets with this as an alternative, or maybe it will only have limited application.

So I've thought about it somewhat, but it does require some balance that ZOS will need to figure out. Still, it gives some more options other than the standard execute with added damage that so many seem to shout about.

I intentionally left out stam classes for a reason. Design wise (both mechanically and in terms of lore), stamina classes should primarily rely on weapon skill lines to deal damage, leaving their magicka pool for class utility skills since this is the best method to preserve identity. Skills like vigor, stam Jabs, PotL don't make sense. How does using stamina result in effects such as summoning spears of light? Venomous Claw makes sense because DKs are meant to be part Dragon/Dragon infused, so they can have venom in their bodies/dirty fingernails. Racer makes sense because the Warden is calling on a bird to skydive a target. Even Rally makes sense, in that it's an adrenaline rush or a second wind as it were. Logically it would imply that after a duration the wounds would affect you again but it still makes more sense than green coming out my characters butt. NB skills such as Incap, SA and their execute make sense because the assassin is using a specific weapon to perform a specific task. Ok fine, it vaguely makes sense. The real problem is that stam characters lack offensive utility from their class, hence why their bars are all weapon skills. However, for everything but stamblade, their damage skills should be primarily weapon skills with some class skills mixed in.

I understand that lore/class themes have been sacrificed for the sake of balance but both can co-exist. Reverting all the changes is pointless but it doesn't hurt to move forward with lore/theme in mind. In fact, it is beneficial because we are trying to balance CLASSES here. Buffing up skills simply because they are underperforming does not work in a class based game. Synergies with the rest of the class kit needs to be considered. Case and point: Rune Cage.

OFC that is just my personal opinion, and I would not oppose stam classes receiving class executes/spammables etc. I just caution against it and would prefer that stamDKs and stamSorc do not get a class spammable. My second favourite class is stamsorc btw, and only because I have always played the mage class in all games. Stamina sorc is actually the most fun for me but old habits...

The mag warden issue goes beyond destruction staff. The class has a spammable so whatever destruction skills would offer it would largely be utility based. The class really lacks an offensive identity.There is hardly any synergy between the kit. You want to stay as far as possible for Birds but it's easiest to land Shalks from a middle distance and their DoT is just completely unnoticeable. Defence is based off a hybrid on HoTs and a mediocre burst heal that require too much micromanagement for minimal effectiveness.

The mDK thing was just a random idea. I personally prefer Lash ignoring dodge again (maybe only at execute range), but the reasoning is that IF a class does receive an execute, the damage component should be secondary to mechanics. The only exceptions would be night blade and sorcerer, which are the damage classes and therefore should have the least utility. Fury is perfect as is, despite what BGs will tell you, because it synergies with the rest of the kit so well. Nightblade execute for stam could use a little something but it's a very low priority for that class. They need defensive buffs to prepare them for the necessary Cloak nerf. The magplar execute is great mechanically because it's built to punish players for getting low and preventing them from running away from the magplar threat zone.

IMO, (<emphasis) DK "executes" should come from passive bonuses that make them more effective against low opponents, not necessarily hit harder. They are meant to wear their opponent down. Stamsorcs implosion is ok. The RNG is a point of conflict but it does make for interesting builds.

I understand what you're saying regarding the damage modifiers. I just don't think those are necessary for executes. High execute damage is fine, the differentiation should come from how effective the mechanics of the execute are.