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Story Immersion Broken for High End Players

Dorjee
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Had a break from ESO. Came back to play Summerset. Although I’m currently finding the story very compelling - unfortunately, the easiness of the overland content is completely immersion breaking, in my opinion.

For example, take any quest from the game. It nicely builds up a particular threat to Tamriel you need to get rid of, you hear the great back story, you do X Y and Z to prepare, but then - you end up killing this hugely built up threat in a couple of hits if you’re a semi high end player.

And yes. Before you start. I know I can make things more challenging by not allocating my CP, play naked or do some other content. But why should I have to?

Every time a new Chapter or Zone DLC comes out, it feels as if the only way I can properly immerse myself with the story aspect is to start a new character. I think this is a bit unfair. Why can’t I use my main character to enjoy the newly released story?

I don’t know any other MMO where the player can simply blast through any new story content if they have a semi high end character.

I just feel as if this is a big shame because the story that comes with each new content release - I feel - is always so interesting and immersive but, these feelings quickly fade because of the easiness of the content.

To say new story content isn’t meant to be challenging for high end players - only trials and vet dungeons etc. - isn’t fair. Especially bearing in mind that Elder Scrolls games are known for being heavily story driven.

I know the positive reasons as to why the overland/story content is easy - because of One Tamriel etc. But, surely there can be some new story content that can be released just for high end players? For example, some form of new reworked Adventure Zone? I’m sure whatever was released for high end players only wouldn’t dissuade new players from starting the game.

Lastly, with CP constantly being increased but story/overland content never getting any harder - surely this will break aforementioned content eventually? As players will just be way too powerful in the future.

CONCLUSION

First, thanks to everyone who has given their input regarding this topic. I’ve tried to carefully consider everyone’s views. And I’ve come to the following opinion –

Although I would like some specific change or content release for high end players, I do recognise, after reading people’s views on this thread, that this is not really viable.

Creating a harder version of overland content for higher end players – would revert ESO to post One Tamriel. Creating a zone like Craglorn – I haven’t yet seen any good arguments to persuade me that this could work successfully in practice. Ultimately, ZoS have a model that works and generates money – so why change it?

There just simply isn’t a big enough demand from high end players to make overland content more challenging – I completely recognise this. That said, it’s clear to see from this thread alone that they’re a lot of players that do feel immersion completely breaks due to easy content.

So, taking all the views I’ve considered together – I think the following idea or, something similar would be great:
The answer to this problem, as always, is UNDAUNTED MEAD:

The undaunted quartermaster at each enclave should sell a drink that removes all CP effects and increases damage taken by 50% while in overland zones. Each additional mead consumed increases damage taken by a further 50%. Drink as many as you like, and your max health, magicka and stamina will be increased by a big fat zero. All monsters killed while under the influence of Undaunted Mead drop more gold, and any mobs that drop set items have a chance to drop two items instead of one.

1000+CP with 50k DPS? No problem! Grab some mead and get questing!

It's just no fun to gimp yourself as a workaround to the easiness of the story content. An increase in difficulty must be built into the story itself. I could imagine receiving a letter from Maj when you reach CP cap, explaining how mundane foes like wolves and bandits must be getting incredibly dull for you now that you have braved so many dangers, and that those who are truly undaunted often find great pleasure in chugging down a mug of her special brew before hitting the road...

I can’t see how the above would have any negative impact on the game. I’m not even suggesting extra rewards if a player decided to use such an item. Just a simple, discretionary option available for high end players who want to enjoy newly released Chapters and/or Zone DLCs without the immersion of the story breaking due to killing everything with a whisper. For players who like things the way they’re, don’t use the item – simple.

The above idea is much better than artificially handicapping yourself by way of wasting gold resetting CP and/or running around naked. This idea is much more fluid and lore friendly.

On an ending note aka last desperate plea to ZoS. I remember playing when vet levels were still around; becoming level 50 and having my showdown with Molag Bal – after going through a somewhat difficult main story questline. When I beat him, I remember feeling a huge sense of accomplishment, as the battle was quite epic and the story leading up to it was interesting and fun. But, I was thinking about this recently. Imagine if a new player ended up levelling by doing all the Chapters and DLCs first, and for whatever reason did the main story questline last…the final showdown with Molag Bal would be so underwhelming, as the fight would be far too easy.

I get that ZoS needs to attract new players. I get that story line content must be balanced to a certain extent due to the nature of MMOs. But, I also get that so much hard work goes into the main quests in this game, especially with new Chapters. And so, I think it’s just a real shame to see all that awesome story telling fall by the wayside – for high end players – when you finally confront the main antagonist of a quest…and kill them with a light attack.

Please, ZoS, consider everything that has been set out in this thread.
Edited by Dorjee on August 27, 2018 10:39PM
DORJEE (EU PC) High Elf Sorcerer of the Aldmeri Dominion, Master Wizard, Dominion Hero, Savior of Nirn, Daedric Lord Slayer, Sergeant, Magnanimous, Maelstrom Arena Champion (Cadwell's Gold)

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  • Aliyavana
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    This is the bad thing about MMO'S. There Is no difficulty slider and if we make it too difficult the majority of players will not be able to enjoy the content as ESO questing is intended to be completed at any lvl. You can artificially make the game harder for yourself by gimmicking yourself from your hard earned gear but at the end the ratio of end game to casual players are is uneven and it wouldn't be beneficial to ZOS to come back and change it. End game players can enjoy dlc dungeons and trials intended for them but overland quest battles such as fighting off a Daedric Prince will be underwhelming for those of us seeking a challenge.

    I wouldn't mind ZOS giving us a Arena that isn't held back by trivial quest difficulty where we can replay quest battles in VMA style difficulty because killing a big bad in two heavy attacks is immersion breaking.
    Edited by Aliyavana on August 26, 2018 10:30PM
  • TheUndeadAmulet
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    Inb4 JuSt PlAy NaKeD oR wItHoUt Cp

    In all seriousness though, its ez because to new players, overland is actually difficult enough. I remember my first few months playing ESO. Some bosses were actually difficult!

    Still don't know why they haven't added vet overland though...
    Edited by TheUndeadAmulet on August 26, 2018 10:30PM
    XBOX NA 1000+ CP
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  • Acrolas
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    "In any other game of this type, these would be called “expansions" – but ESO is a game unlike any other. Because ESO is not level-based, Chapters don't fit the general definition of an “expansion," which typically, in MMO-speak, means it is aimed only at existing (and usually high level) players. Chapters in ESO are different. Each ESO Chapter will feature a self-contained story and zone that can be experienced by itself without needing to travel out to the main game. Our content is never level-gated, which means you can play Chapters with an existing character, or a completely new one."
    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25913
    signing off
  • VaranisArano
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    If I want to tear through quest content like tissue paper because I've got dungeon-ready DPS, I bring my Dark Brotherhood Silencer. Because it makes sense that she'd be able to destroy bosses and slaughter her targets with ease.

    If I want a slower paced experience, I bring my MagDK Vestige. She's a tank, and the very epitome of slow but steady. Manninarco, Molag Bal, and assorted other villains can throw whatever they like at her and she'll keep coming.

    A. This doesn't work for everyone, but that's how I manage my own immersion. How my characters play fits with their backstories.

    B. I realize that overland questing is balanced and even somewhat challenging for new players with No CP. Ive leveled new character with no CP when I want that experience. Overland content is not balanced for my 15-20k+ DD dungeon-ready characters and I dont think it needs to be. Those characters are geared for and have the rotations for dungeons. So I'm not in favor of rebalancing overland content for my dungeon ready characters at the expense of new players with no CP.
    Edited by VaranisArano on August 26, 2018 10:41PM
  • max_only
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    Sorry, they tried vet overland it was called Craglorn.

    Yeah it sucks but they rake in more new blood and cash caterpillars if the game makes you feel like a winner at the start. Too many people would be turned off by more difficult quest content.
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  • Drummerx04
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    I have a similar problem, but I alleviate this issue by having irl friends who are not end game players. They work through content/story pretty slow, and I just sort of tag along and let them do the fighting mostly while I just RP walk behind them like they are my bodyguards or something. If things ever get bad for them I just nuke everything in the area
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  • Malthorne
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    I think the option of a veteran instance for each zone that has much increased difficulty would be neat if it is doable. Perhaps increased xp and other rewards could be on the table as well.
  • ArchMikem
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    Dorjee wrote: »
    For example, take any quest from the game. It nicely builds up a particular threat to Tamriel you need to get rid of, you hear the great back story, you do X Y and Z to prepare, but then - you end up killing this hugely built up threat in a couple of hits if you’re a semi high end player.

    And yes. Before you start. I know I can make things more challenging by not allocating my CP, play naked or do some other content. But why should I have to?

    Because One Tamriel, that's why.

    Ever since that update Zones stopped being level specific and the game instituted a difficulty scaling mechanic so all players of all levels have the ability to experience any zone they want, whenever they want. They wanted new players that bought the game exclusively for Summerset's appeal to be able to play and progress through Summerset on a non-CP level 10 character. If the mobs were difficult enough to get CP 750, fully geared players a challenge then all those new players would be stuck on the very first Quest getting their digital butts handed to them. Eventually they'd either come onto the forums to complain about how hard things are, or uninstall completely.

    Yes I too find it funny and underwhelming that I can defeat a supposed big baddy in just a couple skills, but nothing can be done about it now. ZOS isn't going to alienate so many newer players just so the veteran few can have a challenge.
    CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA Two Star Warlord - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
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  • casparian
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    ArchMikem wrote: »
    ZOS isn't going to alienate so many newer players just so the veteran few can have a challenge.
    Why would the addition of an optional veteran mode to look forward to alienate new players?
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  • ArchMikem
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    casparian wrote: »
    ArchMikem wrote: »
    ZOS isn't going to alienate so many newer players just so the veteran few can have a challenge.
    Why would the addition of an optional veteran mode to look forward to alienate new players?

    A separate Veteran instance for every single Zone might be too much to implement.
    CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA Two Star Warlord - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
    Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!
  • Kiralyn2000
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    Dorjee wrote: »
    I don’t know any other MMO where the player can simply blast through any new story content if they have a semi high end character.

    Feels like my experience with WoW expansions, honestly. Back when I played (vanilla thru Cata), anyone who was end-game geared (heroic dungeons & raiding) could blast through all the new expansion zone content. Because that content was balanced around a general player leveling through, not someone who'd spent 6+ months at the previous level cap, gathering multiple tiers of purple gear and perfecting their build & knowledge of game mechanics. Raid geared players wouldn't typically find any actual gear upgrades until they were near the new level cap in an expansion.

    So, yeah. If you're an ESO Trial player, expecting to be challenged by quest content is silly.




    ...and I wish gamers would stop wielding "but mah immershuns!" as a generic club against any game feature they happen to not like. It's part of what's contributed to the term being meaningless.
    Edited by Kiralyn2000 on August 26, 2018 11:04PM
  • Kel
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    Easy content in other games are referred to as "story mode", except in ESO where players constantly are complaining that story mode is easy.
    /sigh
  • Anastian
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    Totally agree with the concept of harder "arena" style quests. Would be nice for the instanced parts of the main quests (F.e. where you fight Barbas) to be hard arenas for high-end players. You can always summon friends to help :D
  • ADarklore
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    Ah... once again the, "I want ZOS to force me into a specific difficulty because I don't want to do it myself" thread. This reminds me of another 'single player' game that had certain exploits that had even been in the previous two games of the series... but because so many players complained that 'because the exploit existed it was too difficult to resist so therefore the devs should patch it' and the devs did... which ruined it for those players who could take responsibility for themselves and wanted to use the exploit- it was a single player game afterall and the only players it impacted was themselves.

    It just amazes me that players have options, but would rather not have options, instead, they would rather have the devs FORCE things upon them. As the OP stated, "And yes. Before you start. I know I can make things more challenging by not allocating my CP, play naked or do some other content. But why should I have to?" WHY? Because YOU are the one who wants the content a specific way... so YOU should be the one who works with what is available to tailor it more to what you want.
    CP: 2105 ** ESO+ ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
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  • TheDarkShadow
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    A brand new level 1 player with 0 experience with the game, don't have friend yet to make them gears, don't know what is stam or mag... bought summerset or any new chapter will be drop at Summerset just like a veteran player. There are people even find it difficult to beat that sea sload in the cave in questline. My lv 19 magplar once rescued a cp 160+ newbie in a craglorn delve because even at cp160+ he have no clue how to play ("why I use a DW and a staff? Well if i use DW and bow what do I do when I ran out of stam?" To quote his words). The quests are intended to sell to those people.
    Edited by TheDarkShadow on August 27, 2018 1:53AM
  • LioraValkyrie
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    The answer to this problem, as always, is UNDAUNTED MEAD:

    The undaunted quartermaster at each enclave should sell a drink that removes all CP effects and increases damage taken by 50% while in overland zones. Each additional mead consumed increases damage taken by a further 50%. Drink as many as you like, and your max health, magicka and stamina will be increased by a big fat zero. All monsters killed while under the influence of Undaunted Mead drop more gold, and any mobs that drop set items have a chance to drop two items instead of one.

    1000+CP with 50k DPS? No problem! Grab some mead and get questing!

    It's just no fun to gimp yourself as a workaround to the easiness of the story content. An increase in difficulty must be built into the story itself. I could imagine receiving a letter from Maj when you reach CP cap, explaining how mundane foes like wolves and bandits must be getting incredibly dull for you now that you have braved so many dangers, and that those who are truly undaunted often find great pleasure in chugging down a mug of her special brew before hitting the road...
    Mistress of Apocrypha - Master PetSorc

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  • Iccotak
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    I think every DLC zone should have Veteran instances like Craglorn, maybe not as many but definitely more than there currently are.

    This is an MMO, make sure to focus on team/group content.

    That's my problem with quite a few stories, is that they focus on one player and I think they would be more enjoyable with more players.
    Yes this is Elder Scrolls, but this is an MMO. Create stories for groups of players to enjoy together.
    I would really like it if they made the main stories possible with more players. Make the end boss of the main story a trial/raid.
    Along with solo content, Make stories that are a group effort on the part of the player.
  • DanteYoda
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    Because i'm there for story and loot.. the annoying monsters and enemies are already hindering that.. why would i want it worse.
  • Robo_Hobo
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    100% Agree for the purposes of storytelling immersion. I felt the same way when doing Summerset and I did try to nerf myself down a lot. Whatever they do to fix this problem though should include an option to preserve the current difficulty experience for players who prefer easy-mode questing.

    Although at the very least I do think you should at least consider removing CP (but I think there should be CP profiles that you can swap freely to make it more convenient), because as you said, there's more CP bring added every quarter, so balancing content against CP levels isn't good for the long term.

    If they can balance it against 160CP consistently, then at least you have the option to switch down to the recommended CP level for it, and it's easier than needing to swap out gear.
  • peppercats
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    Dorjee wrote: »
    I don’t know any other MMO where the player can simply blast through any new story content if they have a semi high end character.

    Feels like my experience with WoW expansions, honestly. Back when I played (vanilla thru Cata), anyone who was end-game geared (heroic dungeons & raiding) could blast through all the new expansion zone content. Because that content was balanced around a general player leveling through, not someone who'd spent 6+ months at the previous level cap, gathering multiple tiers of purple gear and perfecting their build & knowledge of game mechanics. Raid geared players wouldn't typically find any actual gear upgrades until they were near the new level cap in an expansion.

    So, yeah. If you're an ESO Trial player, expecting to be challenged by quest content is silly.




    ...and I wish gamers would stop wielding "but mah immershuns!" as a generic club against any game feature they happen to not like. It's part of what's contributed to the term being meaningless.

    Except it is immersion breaking for some daedra or somesuch to be built up as a big baddy just for you to kill it in less than 5 seconds.

    I've been playing for less than two months. I've never done a single trial and can count the number of veteran dungeons I've done on one hand. I do questing in crafted gear. There is zero difficulty at all and it is severely disappointing. If I'm disappointed, I can only imagine how disappointed people in far better gear/higher CP are with the content.

    The only difficult quest boss I've fought was the optional gargoyle in the main quest line. I died near instantly because it was such a severe difficulty bump that took me by surprise. I had to actually think and use tactics against it -- which I enjoyed. Then right after I went back to the typical press 1 button to win.
  • Iselin
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    Six of one and half a dozen of the other...

    Other MMOs, like WOW for example, release content for "end game" players and have a more appropriate difficulty for them. OTOH, they exclude a large chunk of the community not to mention they always make your hard-earned gear obsolete and force you to grind new gear 10 levels higher than your old gear.

    Personally I prefer the ESO system, warts and all, even though it feels like you dialed the game difficulty down to "story mode."

    If you've been around long enough you'd remember what it was like when they added Craglorn back in the VR days. That was more like the standard MMO 101 way of doing new content. I remember it being popular for a week or two and then it basically got ignored by all but the nirn farmers.
  • BretonMage
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    Could it be possible to implement an instanced veteran mode for JUST the quest bosses? I think overland should overall stay easy, but I can understand that it can feel odd for the big bad to be killed in a few hits.
  • Kiyakotari
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    If I want to tear through quest content like tissue paper because I've got dungeon-ready DPS, I bring my Dark Brotherhood Silencer. Because it makes sense that she'd be able to destroy bosses and slaughter her targets with ease.

    If I want a slower paced experience, I bring my MagDK Vestige. She's a tank, and the very epitome of slow but steady. Manninarco, Molag Bal, and assorted other villains can throw whatever they like at her and she'll keep coming.

    A. This doesn't work for everyone, but that's how I manage my own immersion. How my characters play fits with their backstories.

    B. I realize that overland questing is balanced and even somewhat challenging for new players with No CP. Ive leveled new character with no CP when I want that experience. Overland content is not balanced for my 15-20k+ DD dungeon-ready characters and I dont think it needs to be. Those characters are geared for and have the rotations for dungeons. So I'm not in favor of rebalancing overland content for my dungeon ready characters at the expense of new players with no CP.

    Honestly, I'm primarily quoting this because it's the only post I've seen in this thread that seems to make sense, and take a rational, civilized approach.

    (And I define civilized in this context as "not just in it for myself at the expense of everyone around me, regardless of what that means doing to them.")
  • swippy
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    Malthorne wrote: »
    I think the option of a veteran instance for each zone that has much increased difficulty would be neat if it is doable. Perhaps increased xp and other rewards could be on the table as well.

    with increased xp as well? doesn't that create a rat race? after that we'll need to put a veteran hardmode scroll next to every mudcrab! :)
  • Animus-ESO
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    Dorjee wrote: »
    Had a break from ESO. Came back to play Summerset. Although I’m currently finding the story very compelling - unfortunately, the easiness of the overland content is completely immersion breaking, in my opinion.

    For example, take any quest from the game. It nicely builds up a particular threat to Tamriel you need to get rid of, you hear the great back story, you do X Y and Z to prepare, but then - you end up killing this hugely built up threat in a couple of hits if you’re a semi high end player.

    And yes. Before you start. I know I can make things more challenging by not allocating my CP, play naked or do some other content. But why should I have to?

    Every time a new Chapter or Zone DLC comes out, it feels as if the only way I can properly immerse myself with the story aspect is to start a new character. I think this is a bit unfair. Why can’t I use my main character to enjoy the newly released story?

    I don’t know any other MMO where the player can simply blast through any new story content if they have a semi high end character.

    I just feel as if this is a big shame because the story that comes with each new content release - I feel - is always so interesting and immersive but, these feelings quickly fade because of the easiness of the content.

    To say new story content isn’t meant to be challenging for high end players - only trials and vet dungeons etc. - isn’t fair. Especially bearing in mind that Elder Scrolls games are known for being heavily story driven.

    I know the positive reasons as to why the overland/story content is easy - because of One Tamriel etc. But, surely there can be some new story content that can be released just for high end players? For example, some form of new reworked Adventure Zone? I’m sure whatever was released for high end players only wouldn’t dissuade new players from starting the game.

    Lastly, with CP constantly being increased but story/overland content never getting any harder - surely this will break aforementioned content eventually? As players will just be way too powerful in the future.

    I agree and I find zos marketing expansions for new players to be insane. New players have never done the main story line. They have no idea who razumdar is or what the hell is even going on. Stop making expansions the new starter zones or you will lose all your senior players really fast. Expansions should be challenging and fun new zones to experience what it was like to explore and be challenged by unknown treats like you were when you first started playing not some cheap new starter zone you can blow threw in 3 hours yawning the whole way.
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  • Korah_Eaglecry
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    Inb4 JuSt PlAy NaKeD oR wItHoUt Cp

    In all seriousness though, its ez because to new players, overland is actually difficult enough. I remember my first few months playing ESO. Some bosses were actually difficult!

    Still don't know why they haven't added vet overland though...

    Because that would split the population which is exactly what they dont want to happen and why One Tamriel is a thing. Its also probably extremely cost ineffective. What do they gain by reversing something that has brought in so many players? And what about the questionable number of people that would take advantage of this? This is never a popular topic on these forums and its always pushed by a couple of forum-goers. All signs point to this being something that will never happen.
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  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
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    ArchMikem wrote: »
    casparian wrote: »
    ArchMikem wrote: »
    ZOS isn't going to alienate so many newer players just so the veteran few can have a challenge.
    Why would the addition of an optional veteran mode to look forward to alienate new players?

    A separate Veteran instance for every single Zone might be too much to implement.

    They should just implement a free gear debuff for those that choose to activate it.
  • mocap
    mocap
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    max_only wrote: »
    Sorry, they tried vet overland it was called Craglorn.
    wot? You didn't serious, right? )
    Do you know how many HP points have that big Mantikora boss from Craglorn main quest? 70K. It has bloody 70k HP !
    ON-creature-Hruzizolk.jpg

    Craglorn main quest line is actually easiest in the game (besides that daily quests).
  • TheDarkShadow
    TheDarkShadow
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    mocap wrote: »
    max_only wrote: »
    Sorry, they tried vet overland it was called Craglorn.
    wot? You didn't serious, right? )
    Do you know how many HP points have that big Mantikora boss from Craglorn main quest? 70K. It has bloody 70k HP !
    ON-creature-Hruzizolk.jpg

    Craglorn main quest line is actually easiest in the game (besides that daily quests).

    They've nerfed Craglorn I think in One Tamriel. Pre-nerfed you were forced to group for the main quest in Craglorn, and even worst, you need to be on the same quest in the chain in order to help each other. Even over land mobs were "dungeon" level (Northen Crag), when top dps was like 30k and most people were 15-20k. Craglorn back then was empty except for Belkarth where people semi afk waiting to port into trials and Nirn farmers. Imperial City is also a "harder zone" cause it's mix between pvp and pve, and see how that turned out. ZoS learned from these mistakes.
    Edited by TheDarkShadow on August 27, 2018 7:37AM
  • peppercats
    peppercats
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    mocap wrote: »
    max_only wrote: »
    Sorry, they tried vet overland it was called Craglorn.
    wot? You didn't serious, right? )
    Do you know how many HP points have that big Mantikora boss from Craglorn main quest? 70K. It has bloody 70k HP !
    ON-creature-Hruzizolk.jpg

    Craglorn main quest line is actually easiest in the game (besides that daily quests).

    They've nerfed Craglorn I think in One Tamriel. Pre-nerfed you are forced to group for the main quest in Craglorn, and even worst, you need to be on the same quest in the chain in order to help each other. Even over land mobs were "dungeon" level (Northen Crag). Craglorn back then was empty except for Belkarth where people semi afk waiting to port into trials and Nirn farmers. Imperial City also a "harder zone" cause it's mix between pvp and pve, and see how that turn out. ZoS learned from these mistake.

    Nobody is asking for group content, I'm not sure where people are getting this idea from.
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