Revisit Innate Axiom Set

WrathOfInnos · August 2018

I know it’s an old topic, but I was looking at this set again recently and realized that it has actually become even weaker since it was released almost a year ago. The set bonuses are:

1096 Max Stamina and Magicka
688 Weapon and Spell Critical
400 Weapon and Spell Damage for Class Abilities

The first noticeable weakness is that it only has 2 useful stats for any non-hybrid DPS build on the 2,3,4 set bonuses. So it is already behind other similar sets (like Hundings or Julianos with one crit bonus removed).

Now the 5 piece bonus. It sounds good at first glance. 400 damage is higher than the 300 on the DPS “baseline” sets like Juli and Hundings. However this 400 only applies to Class Abilities. The main problem here is that it does not affect Light and Heavy attacks. With the light attack buffs over the last year, these are often about 25% of DPS. Even if the 400 damage applied to all other skills, that would still only be 400 on 75% of damage output, or average 300 weapon or spell damage (no better than Juli or Hundings).

This last statement assumes that no Weapon, Guild, or Alliance skills are used. Axiom does nothing for critical DPS skills like Endless Hail, Wall of Elements, Weapon Ultimates, Poison Injection, Caltrops, Meteor, Trap Beast, Imbue Weapon, Force Pulse and many more.

Taking all of this into account, the 5-piece bonus is effectively less than 200 weapon or spell damage averaged over all skills in an effective DPS rotation. Combined with the useless 2 or 3 piece bonus, the set ends up massively underperforming for DPS.

It should really be the best set for a build that relies heavily on class abilities, while being slightly worse than Hundings or Julianos for builds that use multiple non-class DPS skills. Without changing the current 2-4 piece bonuses, this could be achieved by increasing the 5-piece bonus from 400 to 600 weapon and spell damage. After taking light attacks into account this 600 becomes effectively 450, of which 129 makes up for the missing lower bonus and the remaining 321 very slightly exceeds Juli or Hundings. Add in a single non-class skill and this would no longer be the best set to use, so it would be pretty well balanced for niche builds.

Thoughts?

ak_pvp · August 2018

I mean, I'd like it. But its intentional use for hybrids has instead made it good for classes like Magplar or MagDK (or melee magblade) who use mainly class skills in PvP. So I think they would be reluctant to buff it.

WrathOfInnos · August 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

I mean, I'd like it. But its intentional use for hybrids has instead made it good for classes like Magplar or MagDK (or melee magblade) who use mainly class skills in PvP. So I think they would be reluctant to buff it.

I’ll put it a different way. As it currently exists, even if used on a build with 100% class skills, that never uses light or heavy attacks, it will still fall behind sets like Juli or Hundings by about 0.5% damage. Add in light attack weaving and it is about a 2% DPS loss over similar sets. Add in any other skills and this number just keeps rising.

As for hybrids, I can’t see this outperforming something like Pelinals. And it can’t really be combined with Pelinals because half of the 5-piece bonus would become useless.

Jimmy_The_Fixer · August 2018

Axiom is thoroughly a pvp set. I wouldn't evaluate it in a pve scenario since any buffs that would make it viable in pve would make it broken in pvp.

jaws343 · August 2018

Yeah, buffing the set would make it BIS in pvp for magplars, magdk, and magdens. It is already strong on all of those. I even ran if for a bit on my Stamblade.

Not every set has to be PVE viable.

WrathOfInnos · August 2018

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

Axiom is thoroughly a pvp set. I wouldn't evaluate it in a pve scenario since any buffs that would make it viable in pve would make it broken in pvp.

But it is also bad in PVP. All of the same numbers above apply to PVP. The only differences are that crit bonuses (for comparison to Juli and Hundings) are less useful against shields and Impen, and that a Max Stamina bonus isn’t completely useless on a Mag DPS build.

I know it saw some initial use because people saw the number 400 and immediately crafted it without much consideration. It’s been months since I’ve seen it mentioned in any builds though. I think most have caught on that it is useless.

Even best case scenario for MagDK, there’s no way it can compete with something like Silks of the Sun. That sets also gives 400 spell damage, which applies to destruction staff skills, light attacks, meteor, and all class skills. And the 1 piece health on Sun beats the 1 piece Stam on Axiom.

Xsorus · August 2018

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=77811

ccmedaddy · August 2018

I feel like this is still one of the best sets for those niche SnB/DW magicka builds that are not concerned with light attack damage, with the added benefit of being craftable in heavy. I use it on my magdk.

WrathOfInnos · August 2018

Destro builds were given an additional 5-piece bonus last patch, and I’ve been seeing fewer and fewer Magicka melee builds since. Although not my original intent, this change would benefit dwindling magicka melee (dual wield or sword and shield) builds like Magplar, Magblade and MagDK. Maybe even bring back some DW Mag Sorcs (are they extinct?). The set would still be underwhelming on any build that used staff light or heavy attacks, destructive reach, eye of the storm, or force pulse.

redspecter23 · August 2018

I've found a niche use for it while leveling new toons. I use it alongside hundings/julianos on any toon with a class spammable. Works well enough there, but I do see the point that it is underwhelming at endgame and is a casualty of the light attack buff.

Starlock · August 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

I mean, I'd like it. But its intentional use for hybrids has instead made it good for classes like Magplar or MagDK (or melee magblade) who use mainly class skills in PvP. So I think they would be reluctant to buff it.

Yes, I really like this set on my melee magicka DK. He uses almost all class abilities, and his light attacks are always going to suck anyway since he uses dual wield and sword and board. I have no idea how it would do in PvP as I have no intention of ever taking him to Cyro, but it is great for PvE I do with him. There are other sets that need love before this one.

Sordidfairytale · August 2018

I just made two of these sets for customers this weekend. Impen for the armor trait. So someone is happy with it.

leepalmer95 · August 2018

It's 100% a pvp set.

Both stats are useful for pvp.

It buffs class heals as well.

DKsUnite · August 2018

idk where your numbers come from but from my part of the world, if a class never uses light attacks (or uses dw/snb light attacks as a magicka build) how can 300 SD from juli beat 400 SD from axiom?

Savos_Saren · August 2018

I actually run Innate, Silks, and Domihaus on my mDK PVP build. It's pretty powerful for a SnB/Destro build. If you think about it: it's 1000 spell damage to your flame based class abilities.

I've been running a 5l/1m/1h setup (but I may try for a 5h/1m/1l build now that siege hits harder and harder). The build is as follows:

SnB Bar
Burning Embers (1000 extra spell damage)
Flame Lash (1000 extra spell damage)
Volatile Armor (600 spell damage)
Empowering Chains (1000 extra spell damage)
Burning Talons (1000 extra spell damage)
Ferocious Leap (1000 extra spell damage)

Destro Bar
Reflective Plate
Stone Giant (600 extra spell damage)
Coagulated blood (600 extra spell damage)
Molten Armaments
Eruption (1000 extra spell damage)
Shifting Standard (1000 extra spell damage)

You can achieve ~25k resistances on your SnB bar all while still achieving over 9.9k spell penetration. 26.8k health in Cyrodiil, 36k magic, and 17.8k stamina. (Domihaus and Innate add a lot of extra stamina for blocking!)

_Salty_ · August 2018

It is a pvp set and I like it. I run it with heavy shacklebreaker and troll king. Sword and shield. With all tri stat glyphs on the bigs and blue triune jewelry and unmaxed undaunted i sit at 18k mag 30k hp and 31 stam (I dont have full undaunted) and 1800 stam regen with dubious on my stamblade tank. With tri food my stats would be much higher

. It puts me at around 4k weapon damage while giving me a strong mag pool. I use the dark cloak morph with vigor like a sorc uses shields so I need a hefty pool to draw from.

Brutusmax1mus · August 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

I mean, I'd like it. But its intentional use for hybrids has instead made it good for classes like Magplar or MagDK (or melee magblade) who use mainly class skills in PvP. So I think they would be reluctant to buff it.

I’ll put it a different way. As it currently exists, even if used on a build with 100% class skills, that never uses light or heavy attacks, it will still fall behind sets like Juli or Hundings by about 0.5% damage. Add in light attack weaving and it is about a 2% DPS loss over similar sets. Add in any other skills and this number just keeps rising.

As for hybrids, I can’t see this outperforming something like Pelinals. And it can’t really be combined with Pelinals because half of the 5-piece bonus would become useless.

It's a pvp set, that off stat is lovely to me. But I'd love it to buff light attacks.

Also, light attacks may be a large portion of dps, but it's not like you're losing that light attack fully. 400 dmg, in pvp any way, isn't a monstrous difference where light attacks are worthless..

WrathOfInnos · August 2018

DKsUnite wrote: »

idk where your numbers come from but from my part of the world, if a class never uses light attacks (or uses dw/snb light attacks as a magicka build) how can 300 SD from juli beat 400 SD from axiom?

The extra crit bonus on Juli outweighs the 100 Spell Damage on Axiom (assuming of course that the target can be crit).

WrathOfInnos · August 2018

For people that claim to use the set I’m seeing a surprising amount of opposition to buffing it. I hope to run into all of you on the battlefield, where I’ll be wearing better sets

.

leepalmer95 · August 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

For people that claim to use the set I’m seeing a surprising amount of opposition to buffing it. I hope to run into all of you on the battlefield, where I’ll be wearing better sets .

We wear the set because its good.

Difference is we don't want to buff something just because we wear it. Unlike most people on this forum who play 1-2 classes or use certain sets and have a buff me but nerf everything else mentality.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

idk where your numbers come from but from my part of the world, if a class never uses light attacks (or uses dw/snb light attacks as a magicka build) how can 300 SD from juli beat 400 SD from axiom?

The extra crit bonus on Juli outweighs the 100 Spell Damage on Axiom (assuming of course that the target can be crit).

Not in pvp it doesn't.

jaws343 · August 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

For people that claim to use the set I’m seeing a surprising amount of opposition to buffing it. I hope to run into all of you on the battlefield, where I’ll be wearing better sets .

I'm opposed to buffing it because it would make it a must run on most builds in pvp and it would be overpowered. It's already strong where it is right now for a crafted set.

WrathOfInnos · August 2018

jaws343 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

For people that claim to use the set I’m seeing a surprising amount of opposition to buffing it. I hope to run into all of you on the battlefield, where I’ll be wearing better sets .

I'm opposed to buffing it because it would make it a must run on most builds in pvp and it would be overpowered. It's already strong where it is right now for a crafted set.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. I don’t believe there exists a build currently where Axiom is the best gear option, and it would take a much larger buff than I’m recommending to make it mandatory on all builds. It is fairly cheap to make body pieces, but all gear is pretty easy to get in this game, and crafted jewelry is currently one of the mos expensive to obtain.

From its unique set bonus I feel it should be the best option for a build that uses only class skills (like Sun for fire, Netch for Shock, Spider Cultist for Destro) and that is simply not the case in its current state.

ak_pvp · August 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

For people that claim to use the set I’m seeing a surprising amount of opposition to buffing it. I hope to run into all of you on the battlefield, where I’ll be wearing better sets .

I'm opposed to buffing it because it would make it a must run on most builds in pvp and it would be overpowered. It's already strong where it is right now for a crafted set.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. I don’t believe there exists a build currently where Axiom is the best gear option, and it would take a much larger buff than I’m recommending to make it mandatory on all builds. It is fairly cheap to make body pieces, but all gear is pretty easy to get in this game, and crafted jewelry is currently one of the mos expensive to obtain.

From its unique set bonus I feel it should be the best option for a build that uses only class skills (like Sun for fire, Netch for Shock, Spider Cultist for Destro) and that is simply not the case in its current state.

S/B MagDK or templar. Either light/heavy can. Shackle does come equivalent though because I prefer the regen and slight more stats to play with over like 300 buffed tooltip damage. Unless something is too strong though there is no mathmatical "best" for PvP. Its a feel and opponent based system.

NBrookus · August 2018

Innate is fine how it is. It's craftable and buffs class skills even when they are a mix of magic/fire, which the elemental sets don't. It's one of the more solid craftable sets.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I actually run Innate, Silks, and Domihaus on my mDK PVP build.

I think you'd be better off with 1 Domi + 1 max mag or 1 Kena. When I stood in your Domihaus proc the other day it did less than 450 damage to me... and I'm a very squishy vamp on that build. You could get the juicy 1 Domni piece and add more resources or damage to all your skills to go with it.

Savos_Saren · August 2018

NBrookus wrote: »

Innate is fine how it is. It's craftable and buffs class skills even when they are a mix of magic/fire, which the elemental sets don't. It's one of the more solid craftable sets.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I actually run Innate, Silks, and Domihaus on my mDK PVP build.

I think you'd be better off with 1 Domi + 1 max mag or 1 Kena. When I stood in your Domihaus proc the other day it did less than 450 damage to me... and I'm a very squishy vamp on that build. You could get the juicy 1 Domni piece and add more resources or damage to all your skills to go with it.

The fire proc isn’t that great- but the extra 200 spell damage is what I’m shooting for. Also- that firey circle may increase the chances of proccing the burning status on enemies around me- thus helping me with the new combustion passive.

KingExecration · August 2018

I agree with the posts complimenting the set but for magplar I'd never run it, because templar has jokes for ultimates. I'm curious to give it a try on mag dk though.

Gnozo · August 2018

Axiom is really good on mDK if you run 2x s&b.

I run Axiom and shackle with bloodspawn. Really good combination. Sustain and nice damage:)

@Savos_Saren i would replace silk with shackle. Silk of the sun is kinda *** tbh. Shackle will also buff your healing and every other skill and not only flame damage.

Danksta · August 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

Axiom is thoroughly a pvp set. I wouldn't evaluate it in a pve scenario since any buffs that would make it viable in pve would make it broken in pvp.

But it is also bad in PVP. All of the same numbers above apply to PVP. The only differences are that crit bonuses (for comparison to Juli and Hundings) are less useful against shields and Impen, and that a Max Stamina bonus isn’t completely useless on a Mag DPS build.

I know it saw some initial use because people saw the number 400 and immediately crafted it without much consideration. It’s been months since I’ve seen it mentioned in any builds though. I think most have caught on that it is useless.

Even best case scenario for MagDK, there’s no way it can compete with something like Silks of the Sun. That sets also gives 400 spell damage, which applies to destruction staff skills, light attacks, meteor, and all class skills. And the 1 piece health on Sun beats the 1 piece Stam on Axiom.

A lot of mag dks and magplars use SnB and DW making the light attack damage negligible.

WrathOfInnos · August 2018

Has anyone here tried replacing Axiom with Spellweave. In all my testing it performed significantly better (and is one of the reasons I shelved my Axiom almost immediately). It gives 654 Spell damage burst when active, as well as a guaranteed Burning effect, vs Axioms 400. This 654 also applies to all Magicka based skills (damage and healing) and light and heavy attacks. It only requires 52% uptime to beat Axiom for average damage, which is definitely achievable with 1-2 DoTs, but really the burst is more important.

NBrookus · August 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Innate is fine how it is. It's craftable and buffs class skills even when they are a mix of magic/fire, which the elemental sets don't. It's one of the more solid craftable sets.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I actually run Innate, Silks, and Domihaus on my mDK PVP build.

I think you'd be better off with 1 Domi + 1 max mag or 1 Kena. When I stood in your Domihaus proc the other day it did less than 450 damage to me... and I'm a very squishy vamp on that build. You could get the juicy 1 Domni piece and add more resources or damage to all your skills to go with it.

The fire proc isn’t that great- but the extra 200 spell damage is what I’m shooting for. Also- that firey circle may increase the chances of proccing the burning status on enemies around me- thus helping me with the new combustion passive.

Okay, I see your reasoning. But it's 66% uptime on 200 spell damage (net 132) versus 100% uptime on 129 damage that will also buff your DB if you LoS to heal up from siege or something.

(Says the one running Mech Acuity with ~25% uptime... lol.)

RavenSworn · August 2018

Mine might not be the popular view but from the way I see it, given that it's a 2 trait set, I believe that it's more of a set for beginners or at least for levelling.

The five piece bonus works hand in hand with levelling and the 2 trait requirement means it's much more accessible.

Not every set has to be for end game or be competitive. Just my two cents on it.