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What is cheese?
Chibs
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I always see people post funny parses and they seem to always specify in the video “(No cheese)”. What is cheese on a target dummy?
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SilverWF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Some stuff, that usually hard to implement in the real fight, but always works so good against dummy. Personally I think, that Siroria set is one of the best examples of that 'cheese'
Or stuff, that is pretty hard to get, like vMA weapons for newbies etc
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kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭I always see people post funny parses and they seem to always specify in the video “(No cheese)”. What is cheese on a target dummy?
Nah, seriously tho. The point of a target dummy test is to evaluate how much DPS someone can do in a raid situation. So to cheese a dummy parse is to change your build in a way that gives you more damage on a dummy, but is not practical in a raid. One of the most common examples is to use penetration sets like Spriggan to inflate dummy parses. This would be cheese since a pen set like Spriggan has no purpose in a min/maxed trial group.
Calling out cheese is one way to ensure some semblance of a standard across the board. Technically the only way to have to cheese whatsoever would be to have no outside help and run the exact same build you would in a trial.2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Basically its using sets and skills to get a higher parse on a test dummy that doesn't accurately reflect how that person will actually perform in combat.
So, for a trials guild, they'll be interested in seeing how your build does on a dummy under conditions that match how you'll fight in the actual trial. Using sets/skills that don't match how you'll actually perform would be cheesing the test. Someone saying "No Cheese" is saying that they are showing how the build will actually perform in combat without resorting to extra stuff to make it look better than it is.2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Usually a term used when someone can’t parse as high as you, and they are looking for excuses.
Similar to “cheese” builds in PVP, which is basically just using anything effective instead of letting them kill you.1 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »Usually a term used when someone can’t parse as high as you, and they are looking for excuses.
Similar to “cheese” builds in PVP, which is basically just using anything effective instead of letting them kill you.
Yea so, basically anything that doesn't adhere to a set of standards. It can be incredibly useful as a concept and people can use to just whine about stuff lol1 -
Jimmy_The_Fixer✭✭✭✭✭I'm assuming that having someone with powerful assault and SPC popping war horns and sitting just offscreen would be cheese for a solo parse. Might even be profitable to make a setup like that and sell your services as a parse fIuffer.Edited by Jimmy_The_Fixer on August 12, 2018 3:57AM1 -
erlewine✭✭✭No cheese just means only using things you'd use on an actual raid. So not using things like Lava Foot Saltrice food, or Lover mundus in some cases.eisley the worst1 -
Kram8ion✭✭✭✭✭It's the yummy hot gooey mess in between two toasty slices of dignity and disgrace
*may contain traces of nutsps4eu
Kramm stam man kittyblade1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭True, things that aren’t used in raids would not be useful for a raid DPS parse. But the examples people call cheese typically don’t apply this rule. I’ve heard Zaan called cheese, even though it is BiS on at least half the trial boss fights for ranged DPS. The same could be said for Siroria. Lover is commonly used by anyone killing crystals in vCR (at least 4 out of 7 DPS). Slimecraw is by far the best monster set for 4/5 classes in vAS.
Lava foot saltrice is an interesting example, I haven’t seen that one used much in raids, but it would probably be survivable in Craglorn trials with blade cloak and a good tank and healer. I would guess people are parsing with this food to get better sustain than bi-stat. This is probably more a more accurate representation of a raid rotation, since they will have orbs, and possibly Master resto ticks and Hircines. A solo rotation would otherwise have to rely on more heavy attacks that mean a different rotation than in a raid.
One example I don’t think I’ve ever heard called “cheese” is Ele Drain. It helps Magicka DPS sustain a parse even though they would never be the one run it in a raid. It changes their DPS rotation and skill bars. But somehow running regen food to do the same thing is frowned upon?Edited by WrathOfInnos on August 12, 2018 8:18AM2 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@WrathOfInnos , with Elemental Drain, I suspect it's a slightly different situation, because it's universally expected that Drain always will be on target (at least on the boss) in a trial. It works for whole group and healers routinely apply it to boss, so Elemental Drain is probably one of most realistic things to slot in order to imitate trial setting.
Regen food is probably nothing that should be frowned upon, either, unless it drops the health to ~14k for the sake of damage, which would already be a bit too squishy in a real scenario.0 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No cheese just means only using things you'd use on an actual raid. So not using things like Lava Foot Saltrice food, or Lover mundus in some cases.
Those would both be used by my current setup. Maybe not that buff food, but some people use it. There is also nothing wrong with the lover mundus stone if it completes your build. As a stam toon I use it along with cp I sit at 8k penetration which is what I want for a raid, depending on how well it is optimized I would drop 1k pen maybe.
Cheese is what others said, placing yourself at an advantage with help you wouldn't have on your own to inflate your dps number or sets that are knowingly broken OP or situational.
Stam sorc for example doesn't have access to many buffs/debuffs so if you are looking at a stam sorc parse it would be lower than in a raid where you get minor courage/savagery/brutality/berserk, major fracture/minor fracture and other sources of penetration. In a raid, you would get these, classes like nightblade have access to a lot of these built in to their kit so they always pull higher results on a test dummy.
The biggest culprit is penetration, if you see a parse with 9k+ penetration with NO major/minor fracture they inflated their pen to get the most benefit on the test dummy.Edited by MashmalloMan on August 13, 2018 4:24PMPC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit0 -
SirDopey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Marshall1289 wrote: »No cheese just means only using things you'd use on an actual raid. So not using things like Lava Foot Saltrice food, or Lover mundus in some cases.
Those would both be used by my current setup. Maybe not that buff food because it's too expensive for me, but some people use it. There is also nothing wrong with the lover mundus stone if it completes your build. As a stam toon I use it along with cp I sit at 8k penetration which is what I want for a raid, depending on how well it is optimized I would drop 1k pen maybe.
Cheese is what others said, placing yourself at an advantage with help you wouldn't have on your own to inflate your dps number or sets that are knowingly broken OP or situational.
Stam sorc for example doesn't have access to many buffs/debuffs so if you are looking at a stam sorc parse it would be lower than in a raid where you get minor courage/savagery/brutality/berserk, major fracture/minor fracture and other sources of penetration. In a raid, you would get these, classes like nightblade have access to a lot of these built in to their kit so they always pull higher results on a test dummy.
The biggest culprit is penetration, if you see a parse with 9k+ penetration with NO major/minor fracture they inflated their pen to get the most benefit on the test dummy.
But stamdk's will often show 120k penetration on their metrics reports if they use their earthen heart ultimate....NA PC | AD
xx Doc Holliday xx0 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Marshall1289 wrote: »No cheese just means only using things you'd use on an actual raid. So not using things like Lava Foot Saltrice food, or Lover mundus in some cases.
Those would both be used by my current setup. Maybe not that buff food because it's too expensive for me, but some people use it. There is also nothing wrong with the lover mundus stone if it completes your build. As a stam toon I use it along with cp I sit at 8k penetration which is what I want for a raid, depending on how well it is optimized I would drop 1k pen maybe.
Cheese is what others said, placing yourself at an advantage with help you wouldn't have on your own to inflate your dps number or sets that are knowingly broken OP or situational.
Stam sorc for example doesn't have access to many buffs/debuffs so if you are looking at a stam sorc parse it would be lower than in a raid where you get minor courage/savagery/brutality/berserk, major fracture/minor fracture and other sources of penetration. In a raid, you would get these, classes like nightblade have access to a lot of these built in to their kit so they always pull higher results on a test dummy.
The biggest culprit is penetration, if you see a parse with 9k+ penetration with NO major/minor fracture they inflated their pen to get the most benefit on the test dummy.
But stamdk's will often show 120k penetration on their metrics reports if they use their earthen heart ultimate....
LOL really? Well I guess you should take it with a grain of salt then anything above 20k, doesn't count as cheese?
Trollking = Cheese
OP is talking about a target dummy, don't get in to sets in pvp or else this thread would never quit.Edited by MashmalloMan on August 12, 2018 10:24PMPC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit0 -
erlewine✭✭✭Marshall1289 wrote: »
Then they wouldn't qualify as cheese for you. For others, they would.eisley the worst0 -
ChunkyCat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »Usually a term used when someone can’t parse as high as you, and they are looking for excuses.
Similar to “cheese” builds in PVP, which is basically just using anything effective instead of letting them kill you.
Give that man a beer.1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I always see people post funny parses and they seem to always specify in the video “(No cheese)”. What is cheese on a target dummy?
What uncle sheo gives you to keep on playingSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
Mureel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »True, things that aren’t used in raids would not be useful for a raid DPS parse. But the examples people call cheese typically don’t apply this rule. I’ve heard Zaan called cheese, even though it is BiS on at least half the trial boss fights for ranged DPS. The same could be said for Siroria. Lover is commonly used by anyone killing crystals in vCR (at least 4 out of 7 DPS). Slimecraw is by far the best monster set for 4/5 classes in vAS.
Lava foot saltrice is an interesting example, I haven’t seen that one used much in raids, but it would probably be survivable in Craglorn trials with blade cloak and a good tank and healer. I would guess people are parsing with this food to get better sustain than bi-stat. This is probably more a more accurate representation of a raid rotation, since they will have orbs, and possibly Master resto ticks and Hircines. A solo rotation would otherwise have to rely on more heavy attacks that mean a different rotation than in a raid.
One example I don’t think I’ve ever heard called “cheese” is Ele Drain. It helps Magicka DPS sustain a parse even though they would never be the one run it in a raid. It changes their DPS rotation and skill bars. But somehow running regen food to do the same thing is frowned upon?
Yeah or the magicka one, eyeballs something. Perfectly legit to use in testing, because regen will be better in raids than solo.
Some people consider stacking pen as cheese - but you're gonna have that pen in a raid scenario.
Idk that it really matters tbh.
Spme guilds will have specific parse specs you need to follow anyway. Just for the parse.
However: you wouldn't believe how many high parse braggy types are falling over dead constantly in raids because they have no awareness other than their DPS meter.
#truestory1 -
Joker99✭✭✭
Stacking pen on dummy is stupid because you would have to replace sets, mundus, cp or all three to be able to reach the pen you would have in trials, therefore not having the weapon damage, crit, stam/mag pool as in a raid. If you want to do a trial setting parse then just gather some friends to apply all buffs and debuffs. However that parse is nothing to brag with unless you compare it with another parse done exactly the same.WrathOfInnos wrote: »True, things that aren’t used in raids would not be useful for a raid DPS parse. But the examples people call cheese typically don’t apply this rule. I’ve heard Zaan called cheese, even though it is BiS on at least half the trial boss fights for ranged DPS. The same could be said for Siroria. Lover is commonly used by anyone killing crystals in vCR (at least 4 out of 7 DPS). Slimecraw is by far the best monster set for 4/5 classes in vAS.
Lava foot saltrice is an interesting example, I haven’t seen that one used much in raids, but it would probably be survivable in Craglorn trials with blade cloak and a good tank and healer. I would guess people are parsing with this food to get better sustain than bi-stat. This is probably more a more accurate representation of a raid rotation, since they will have orbs, and possibly Master resto ticks and Hircines. A solo rotation would otherwise have to rely on more heavy attacks that mean a different rotation than in a raid.
One example I don’t think I’ve ever heard called “cheese” is Ele Drain. It helps Magicka DPS sustain a parse even though they would never be the one run it in a raid. It changes their DPS rotation and skill bars. But somehow running regen food to do the same thing is frowned upon?
Yeah or the magicka one, eyeballs something. Perfectly legit to use in testing, because regen will be better in raids than solo.
Some people consider stacking pen as cheese - but you're gonna have that pen in a raid scenario.
Idk that it really matters tbh.
Spme guilds will have specific parse specs you need to follow anyway. Just for the parse.
However: you wouldn't believe how many high parse braggy types are falling over dead constantly in raids because they have no awareness other than their DPS meter.
#truestory
Simply stacking pen is gonna be considered cheese, deal with it. If your argument is that you’re imitating trial pen then you’re not imitating trial stats.
There are others that would say “In raid I would use x set for even more damage” are also the ones I can GUARRANTEE will deal less on any boss than on dummy, single target wise.
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Mostly just a scrub. Not even max CP.Actually max CP.0 -
Mureel✭✭✭✭✭
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Stacking pen on dummy is stupid because you would have to replace sets, mundus, cp or all three to be able to reach the pen you would have in trials, therefore not having the weapon damage, crit, stam/mag pool as in a raid. If you want to do a trial setting parse then just gather some friends to apply all buffs and debuffs. However that parse is nothing to brag with unless you compare it with another parse done exactly the same.WrathOfInnos wrote: »True, things that aren’t used in raids would not be useful for a raid DPS parse. But the examples people call cheese typically don’t apply this rule. I’ve heard Zaan called cheese, even though it is BiS on at least half the trial boss fights for ranged DPS. The same could be said for Siroria. Lover is commonly used by anyone killing crystals in vCR (at least 4 out of 7 DPS). Slimecraw is by far the best monster set for 4/5 classes in vAS.
Lava foot saltrice is an interesting example, I haven’t seen that one used much in raids, but it would probably be survivable in Craglorn trials with blade cloak and a good tank and healer. I would guess people are parsing with this food to get better sustain than bi-stat. This is probably more a more accurate representation of a raid rotation, since they will have orbs, and possibly Master resto ticks and Hircines. A solo rotation would otherwise have to rely on more heavy attacks that mean a different rotation than in a raid.
One example I don’t think I’ve ever heard called “cheese” is Ele Drain. It helps Magicka DPS sustain a parse even though they would never be the one run it in a raid. It changes their DPS rotation and skill bars. But somehow running regen food to do the same thing is frowned upon?
Yeah or the magicka one, eyeballs something. Perfectly legit to use in testing, because regen will be better in raids than solo.
Some people consider stacking pen as cheese - but you're gonna have that pen in a raid scenario.
Idk that it really matters tbh.
Spme guilds will have specific parse specs you need to follow anyway. Just for the parse.
However: you wouldn't believe how many high parse braggy types are falling over dead constantly in raids because they have no awareness other than their DPS meter.
#truestory
Simply stacking pen is gonna be considered cheese, deal with it. If your argument is that you’re imitating trial pen then you’re not imitating trial stats.
There are others that would say “In raid I would use x set for even more damage” are also the ones I can GUARRANTEE will deal less on any boss than on dummy, single target wise.
Why so aggressive? It's not even MY opinion. I don't even do it.
People DO do it though, just the same.
I can't be arsed to change anything to parse except swap shield with ele drain, so kindly keep your snippy stupids, deal with its, and guarantees to yourself. :P
And it DOESN'T MATTER just the same, because _anyone_ can read a parse and call BS on it if it's BS.
Edited by Mureel on August 13, 2018 10:10PM0 -
ccmedaddy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Wait... is there a magicka equivalent to the Lava Saltrice food? I feel like that's exactly what I need for my argonian magwarden who usually has too much health for PvE dps.0
