Mag Warden PvP buffs

Yubarius · August 2018

Hey everyone, I wanted to post a discussion about the state of mag warden in pvp and what can be done to help it. I've been playing the class for about a year and love the playstyle but the level of gimp this class experiences is beyond belief. I am beyond frustrated at what has been done to this class, but to put its pain points simply I'll say this; Magden currently has no way to secure kills. Magden has NO execute, NO undodgeable birds, and NOT EVEN A STUN (outside permafrost which is a 200 cost ult and only stuns after 3 seconds of damage).

I see plenty of threads where sorcs are asking to revert the change to make Rc dodgeable or DK's asking for an execute which I can understand... but Sorcs have essentially 2 executes and at LEAST DK has 2 stuns (leap and fossilize). It seems to me that @Wrobel has seemingly either forgot that magden exists or is too afraid to change it because of how OP stamden is, both of which are not justifiable reasons to not help out magden.

So, I've left my grievances to above so here are my thoughts on how to help out magden. One of the things that bothers me the most about this class is how polarizing the skills are in playstyle. Cliff Racer gives a up to 15% damage bonus the farther away you are, which is good and all but... shalk only has a 20 meter range and my damage ult has a 8 meter radius? So which do you want from me Wrobel, to get close to my enemy and hit them with ult and make fissure easier to hit, or utilize the effect of cliff racer?? I see a lot of sorcs turning down the suggestion of making RC melee range because they are a ranged class, but Magden has to do that already so where is our help? I suggest changing cliff racer to deal execute damage that starts at 50% up to 200% damage in place of the useless current damage bonus. Before anyone dares to say it, no, bear ult is NOT an acceptable execute and heres why.
1. Has to be double barred
2. Have to heavy attack who I want it to hit
3. My execute basically has a cooldown cause the active costs ult.

If you really dont want us having an execute, then please give the stun back to deep fissure and perhaps put breach on cliff racer instead. I dont want magden to be OP, I just want it to have at least ONE method of securing kills that every other class has (and some have multiple forms such as sorc). Please consider what I've laid out here and provide feedback and suggestions of your own. I am not the best or most knowledgable Magden player out there so please feel free to critique what I suggested.

Starlight_Knight · August 2018

Indeed it is very fustrating suffering though the Mag Warden lifestyle - ive been playing one as my main since they released, and im seriously starting to consider changing classes as we've had another update with no "pain points" fixed.
The changes they have made in the past have just been 3 HUGE nerfs to an already under performing class.

Cliff racer nerf to both its dodge and burst potential - and the removal of the class CC

There are so many clunky mechanics and hidden cast time abilities - There was a lot of time and effort went into the Warden class feedback thread ages ago highlighting all the bad on the warden - Then we were asked just for our 2 pain points.
On all occasions we've been ignored.

How can other classes complain about how hard they have it when we're sitting quietly in the corner in rags.

It should be compulsory for everyone to earn 1m AP on a Magden so they can see how good they really have it.

Yubarius · August 2018

Hayden_Knight wrote: »

Indeed it is very fustrating suffering though the Mag Warden lifestyle - ive been playing one as my main since they released, and im seriously starting to consider changing classes as we've had another update with no "pain points" fixed.
The changes they have made in the past have just been 3 HUGE nerfs to an already under performing class.

Cliff racer nerf to both its dodge and burst potential - and the removal of the class CC

There are so many clunky mechanics and hidden cast time abilities - There was a lot of time and effort went into the Warden class feedback thread ages ago highlighting all the bad on the warden - Then we were asked just for our 2 pain points.
On all occasions we've been ignored.

How can other classes complain about how hard they have it when we're sitting quietly in the corner in rags.

It should be compulsory for everyone to earn 1m AP on a Magden so they can see how good they really have it.

I dont want to have other classes nerfed but I do agree that most people dont realize just how good they have it on their main class. I remember that feedback thread, and it was definitely disheartening that we could only provide 2 pain points when in reality there are 10+, and they were ALL ignored. I'm going to find out who the warden rep(s) are and have them give this thread a read to see if their voices would be heard.

Starlight_Knight · August 2018

Good luck - But unfortunately we are just a minority

danwtayl · August 2018

In my view the Magden is on the verge of being in a very good spot. They have solid burst damage and tankiness. Similar to that of a sorc. Their challenge is that they only have burst damage that it is delayed and easily avoided. (For example: I struggle against tree huggers. They can effectively negate all my damage).

Although we have high burst damage, I miss out on a lot of kills due to my damaged is mostly delayed and I have no execute. I can get someone in execute range quickly to only watch them recover because I didn't have something in my tool kit to finish them. To give us an execute, my suggestion is to rework swarm and its morphs and give it an execute like poison injection. As is swarm doesn't make it on my bar as it doesn't provide a benefit great than the other skills I use.

Another suggestion is to buff dive by making every other cast not dodgeable. Right now dive is so easily avoided. Specially against medium armor builds. When dive was not dodgeable it was OP but dodgeable it's meh because it misses more than it lands. Maybe meet halfway would put it in a good spot.

Also, due to lack of any single target cc, I will lose 90% of fights against competent mag sorcs and dks as they have the CC's to control the fight better than I can. Magdens are great AOE CCers so I'd hate to take away from that but the need something other the reach to cc a single target. I don't know what to suggest here as I actually like the debuff deep fissure has now but do miss the stun. This class would benefit greatly from having a hard cc you can put on a single target.

Yubarius · August 2018

Is that so? I have no doubt they are one of if not the best utility/support classes because of good heals and permafrost utilities, but do you honestly think they are the top tier in DPS? I think the vast majority of people would disagree.

Priyasekarssk · August 2018

Yubarius wrote: »

Is that so? I have no doubt they are one of if not the best utility/support classes because of good heals and permafrost utilities, but do you honestly think they are the top tier in DPS? I think the vast majority of people would disagree.

Did you even read my post ? Mag warden is top tier in PVP hands down. Warden only lacks PVE dps stuff and needs PVE buff. In PVP they are pretty good.

ccmedaddy · August 2018

It says a lot about the state the class is in when the meta setup for magwardens nowadays is to stack an absurd amount of health and trolling people with frost abilities while letting proc sets do most of your damage. Otherwise, you're just playing an infinitely worse version of a magsorc with no CC, no mobility, no execute, no nothing.

Turning my magwarden into a dedicated crafter is the best decision I've made in this game. I no longer get filled with envy and disgust when I see sorc/NB mains asking for buffs or complaining about the tiny nerfs they sometimes get tickled with. I no longer have to go through the same patch notes over and over looking for magwarden changes only to find out, hey, at least our bear will move faster (LOL).

I'm sure one day it'll change for the better, but for now I'm resigned to the fact that ZOS is preoccupied with some other stuff, whatever that is, and that because magwardens are a tiny minority we'll never get the attention we need in a forum overflowing with sorc and nightblade tears.

Waffennacht · August 2018

All pain points brought up in the warden discussion in was a part of was not at all included in the notes posted later.

All feedback has been ignored or disagreed with

Again, makes me think the rep program was a complete waste of time

Starlight_Knight · August 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

All pain points brought up in the warden discussion in was a part of was not at all included in the notes posted later.

All feedback has been ignored or disagreed with

Again, makes me think the rep program was a complete waste of time

It may not be a waste of time in the long run - but it sure is taking its time to come to fruition.

Iduyenn · August 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

All pain points brought up in the warden discussion in was a part of was not at all included in the notes posted later.

All feedback has been ignored or disagreed with

Again, makes me think the rep program was a complete waste of time

No no no! They are going to change rune cage and sloads!

And we have very high burst potential. (If your target forgets to move and dodgeroll for 4 seconds)

Honestly though. I start to love my magwarden even more. Icemage, max-health tank, and now i am trying to do something "normal" magicka thingy.

But yes! We lack hard CC (As mentioned in feedback).
And though we are in posession of some pretty awsome debuffs/buffs. Its not always inclusive, practiable, applicable and usable in your pvp build.
And some of our main attacks (for example pidgeons) need a rework. Every honk with half a brain can dodge/los it... aka they dont even have to run behind a tree. They can walk.
And yeah, the lazy bear or the very unpractical circle of corrupting pollen. We need at least some means to do dmg and execute our enemy. Cant whe have a frost zap execute passive? (kinda like mage?). You can even have Icy Aura or Bond with nature back!

_Ahala_ · August 2018

Magden is absolutely amazing in a pvp group as a healer, tank, or dps... I don’t think anyone will argue against that... however, in solo pvp it suffers as it can’t rely on other classes to provide cc, mobility and executes and in pve it’s great as a tank or healer but really just lame as a dps... The problem in both pvp and pve is that their is a lack of class damage abilities that synergize with each other and provide offensive utility, and that makes the class feel unfinished

ZOS_JesC · August 2018

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Yubarius · August 2018

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Magden is absolutely amazing in a pvp group as a healer, tank, or dps... I don’t think anyone will argue against that... however, in solo pvp it suffers as it can’t rely on other classes to provide cc, mobility and executes and in pve it’s great as a tank or healer but really just lame as a dps... The problem in both pvp and pve is that their is a lack of class damage abilities that synergize with each other and provide offensive utility, and that makes the class feel unfinished

I 100% agree with everything you've said. I tend to do well in groups (but hey, who doesn't), and as you said it's when you're alone or even with 1 other person that you really feel the pain of this class. One thing I didnt mention that drives me wild is how our "healing" works. All of the hots except the vine pull only affect one person, you or a nearby ally. This means I NEVER take leeching vines or the one that gives prophecy because that means an not guaranteed to get a heal. Also, our "sustain" passive ONLY procs when I heal an ally?? So I have to choose between healing an ally to help put sustain or healing myself and not utilizing the passive at all?

Tryxus · August 2018

- Slow offense, easily avoided or mitigated
- The only stun and execute that we have are tied to our Ultimates
- Bear is a bit too fragile due to lack of synergy with the Warden
- Clunky mechanics: Fetcher Infection 2nd cast, Budding Seeds instant consumption, ...
- Sustain issues
- Terrible usability on Winter's Embrace skills
- Mobility: choice between a expensive skill with a short duration or a skill that requires a friendly target
- etc
- ...

When the Warden started out with Morrowind, Magicka Warden was a really decent spec that was also incredibly fun to play. But then we got hit with the nerfbat, and while I did agree with the nerf to Cliff Racer (too stronk vs medium builds), the nerf to Deep Fissure crippled us. All because ZOS decided to apply a general rule to all classes: seperate CC from high damage skills, which was a fiasco to say the least.

And the only thing they did, was buffing Arctic Wind. Whoopee...

I wasn't expecting much with the Wolfhunter update, since the Class Rep program had only been finalized and set up about a month before the PTS. But it's still another update where MagDens are completely ignored. So I do hope that with Murkmire the Class Rep program will pay off, and the update will come with a generous amount of MagDen buffs

Luckylancer · August 2018

People here describe problems very acurately. Magden's weakness was why I left game because the class got nerfed several times despite being weakest class in pvp when it comes to aggression. Magden was my main too. Undodgeable birds were toxic but class was in so poor state, removing it without adding any thing was bad idea. Old scorch was extremely OP skill by itself but it was on weakest pvp class, removal of stun put the nail in the coffin.

@Yubarius As far as I know, self heals count as ally heal too. Boht warden specs rely on at least 1 hot skill, tats the way class designed. Take lotus or roots.