Nice-Born-Star - An all-round Setup for Battlegrounds

Minno · August 2018

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Divines is just too weak in PVP for this to be a good option. I've pondered it before when theorycrafting an argonian healer build using the shadow and the ritual on a magwarden to get my healing done and crit modifier up to about 200%.

Getting your critical modifier to 200% is not useful damagewise anyway. If you wanted to use the shadow then the results are never good. It is the weakest of all the offensive mundus stones. Shadow does not apply to healing anyway if I remember correctly. Ritual however is an insane amount of healing, flat 15% on any healing done, no other five piece gets even close to that.

I listed effective mundus stones above, which yield me very good results in battlegrounds and in cyrodiil.

It was for critical healing, not for damage. The goal was to get 4x base healing using healing done and crit modifier, with another 50% buff to healing received, which put me at 600% healing when I crit.

There is an old saying from one of the great templar pvpers; "By mitigating OVERALL damage, you are killing two birds with 1 stone. Reduction to overall damage is a reduction to critical damage."

The same can almost be said for damage/healing; increasing your damage will thus increase your crit dmg and in turn your heals.

I don't think you are understanding me. My purpose was to see how far I could take it. It was an experiment in taking game mechanics to their extreme. It wasn't an issue of taking too much damage or not being able to heal enough, and I was using heals that scaled to both resources as well as those that scaled to neither.

I was trying to see how much I could buff the warden heal that scales to health for example, as well as the light attack heal from lotus. The only way to do that was through healing done, healing received, healing taken, and crit damage modifier.

I agree that the shadow is too weak of a mundus for a traditional single resource meta build. I know the math behind it. At 100% crit chance you'd get about a 9.15% increase to healing/damage done from it, and the lover (in PVE) at its worst provides 8.4% so long as you are not over-penetrating; so to have a shot at beating the Lover, the Shadow would need a crit chance of roughly 92%. The warrior typically adds about 7.5% damage/healing all the time, which means that in order for the shadow to surpass it, you'd need an 82% crit chance and no other modifiers to crit damage, which means that in order for it to win you essentially must gimp your build.

I get that. But when you are trying to buff magicka and stamina based healing and when you are working with skills that scale in manners more unorthodox as well, your greatest benefit to healing strength will come from the ritual and the shadow. You're greatest increase to damage will come from the lover and the shadow in those scenarios.

The goal was thus to see how high of a "healing multiplier" could be created.

Ah I see. Thanks!

Though as of the last few patches, crit dmg modifers no longer boosts heals.

Amdar_Godkiller · August 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Divines is just too weak in PVP for this to be a good option. I've pondered it before when theorycrafting an argonian healer build using the shadow and the ritual on a magwarden to get my healing done and crit modifier up to about 200%.

Getting your critical modifier to 200% is not useful damagewise anyway. If you wanted to use the shadow then the results are never good. It is the weakest of all the offensive mundus stones. Shadow does not apply to healing anyway if I remember correctly. Ritual however is an insane amount of healing, flat 15% on any healing done, no other five piece gets even close to that.

I listed effective mundus stones above, which yield me very good results in battlegrounds and in cyrodiil.

It was for critical healing, not for damage. The goal was to get 4x base healing using healing done and crit modifier, with another 50% buff to healing received, which put me at 600% healing when I crit.

There is an old saying from one of the great templar pvpers; "By mitigating OVERALL damage, you are killing two birds with 1 stone. Reduction to overall damage is a reduction to critical damage."

The same can almost be said for damage/healing; increasing your damage will thus increase your crit dmg and in turn your heals.

And the thing is also: your critical hits are usually higher with warrior/apprentice. Shadow literally does not make sense, they overnerfed it a little... It'd be interesting to see how large the difference between apprentice and ritual is in terms of healing output and damage. If the healing is great enough to justify losing the damaged from apprentice, then it might be a good contender.

Since healing done works multiplicative with other healing bonuses, the benefit that you can potentially gain from 15% healing done is enormous.

You are getting 1.15 x (healing taken)(healing received)

Healing taken only goes up to a maximum of 1.24x, but still, the 15% from the ritual along with that 24% healing taken by themselves would increases your self-healing to 143%. If you're healing received is likewise increased through CP (15%), race (5%), heavy armor (8%), set bonuses (Sanctuary 12% on self; also 12% increase to allies healing received), vitality potions (30%), and minor vitality (8%); then your self-healing would be augmented by a factor of 2.54x. Without the ritual it would be at 2.2x. So it would be equivalent to an additive buff of more 34% healing.

The golden numbers are 42% and 73%. With 42% bonuses to both healing received and healing done, we double our healing. And with 73% bonuses to both we triple it. At 100%, you'd be able to quadruple it. And since you also have crit damage and healing taken modifiers, you can definitely take advantage of scaling.

TLDR, though, the Ritual can be utilized as a much better tool for enhancing heal capacity than other mundi. It will scale poorly if you have only healing done modifiers, as it faces the same diminishing returns that damage done increases do when it is combined additively; but when other healing modifiers are used with it, it scales strongly and is augmented multiplicatively. In general, you get twice as much healing as you'll get from any other mundus. when using the ritual, but unlike the Warrior and Apprentice, it will buff all sources of healing too.From set bonus procs to skills that don't scale with mag or stam.

Amdar_Godkiller · August 2018

Minno wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Divines is just too weak in PVP for this to be a good option. I've pondered it before when theorycrafting an argonian healer build using the shadow and the ritual on a magwarden to get my healing done and crit modifier up to about 200%.

Getting your critical modifier to 200% is not useful damagewise anyway. If you wanted to use the shadow then the results are never good. It is the weakest of all the offensive mundus stones. Shadow does not apply to healing anyway if I remember correctly. Ritual however is an insane amount of healing, flat 15% on any healing done, no other five piece gets even close to that.

I listed effective mundus stones above, which yield me very good results in battlegrounds and in cyrodiil.

It was for critical healing, not for damage. The goal was to get 4x base healing using healing done and crit modifier, with another 50% buff to healing received, which put me at 600% healing when I crit.

There is an old saying from one of the great templar pvpers; "By mitigating OVERALL damage, you are killing two birds with 1 stone. Reduction to overall damage is a reduction to critical damage."

The same can almost be said for damage/healing; increasing your damage will thus increase your crit dmg and in turn your heals.

I don't think you are understanding me. My purpose was to see how far I could take it. It was an experiment in taking game mechanics to their extreme. It wasn't an issue of taking too much damage or not being able to heal enough, and I was using heals that scaled to both resources as well as those that scaled to neither.

I was trying to see how much I could buff the warden heal that scales to health for example, as well as the light attack heal from lotus. The only way to do that was through healing done, healing received, healing taken, and crit damage modifier.

I agree that the shadow is too weak of a mundus for a traditional single resource meta build. I know the math behind it. At 100% crit chance you'd get about a 9.15% increase to healing/damage done from it, and the lover (in PVE) at its worst provides 8.4% so long as you are not over-penetrating; so to have a shot at beating the Lover, the Shadow would need a crit chance of roughly 92%. The warrior typically adds about 7.5% damage/healing all the time, which means that in order for the shadow to surpass it, you'd need an 82% crit chance and no other modifiers to crit damage, which means that in order for it to win you essentially must gimp your build.

I get that. But when you are trying to buff magicka and stamina based healing and when you are working with skills that scale in manners more unorthodox as well, your greatest benefit to healing strength will come from the ritual and the shadow. You're greatest increase to damage will come from the lover and the shadow in those scenarios.

The goal was thus to see how high of a "healing multiplier" could be created.

Ah I see. Thanks!

Though as of the last few patches, crit dmg modifers no longer boosts heals.

Yes, I heard. It's unfortunate, as that was essentially the one way you could come close to countering defile builds in PVP: by combining quick recovery and blessed with one of the crit modifier stars. Unleashing sloads in this defile meta, and then buffing mag damage scaling (sorcs in particular), then intensifying power creep through jewelry crafting, while effectivly nerfing healing indirectly to such a degree by divorcing it from crit modifiers, .was probably not the best idea all for one patch. I think that's why there's been so few balance adjustments: they aren't really sure how x will effect y going forward.

I also don't much like the way they've divided the blue constellations so rigidly by mana source, particularly when there are other ways in game to increase them simultaneously.

Elwendryll · August 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

I'd like to gain some insight from more experienced pvpers, because I've never heard of anyone running this and I can't find a reason why. Mathematically it is on par with other builds (such as brass+shackle, shackle+lich+skoria etc). If people like it I will show detailed setups that I run usually.
Cheers, Masel

I have been running this for a few weeks now. TBS is my favorite set, pairing it with impregnable was quite obvious for pvp, it was almost... an invitation. I run a stamsorc with Selene + TBS + Impregnable. Lover and Lady, in medium. I have no complaints whatsoever on how it performs. I have the survivability and the damages I need.
I feel like the 2nd mundus is more than a 5th piece bonus, and it's easily changed.

Amdar_Godkiller · August 2018

Elwendryll wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

I'd like to gain some insight from more experienced pvpers, because I've never heard of anyone running this and I can't find a reason why. Mathematically it is on par with other builds (such as brass+shackle, shackle+lich+skoria etc). If people like it I will show detailed setups that I run usually.
Cheers, Masel

I have been running this for a few weeks now. TBS is my favorite set, pairing it with impregnable was quite obvious for pvp, it was almost... an invitation. I run a stamsorc with Selene + TBS + Impregnable. Lover and Lady, in medium. I have no complaints whatsoever on how it performs. I have the survivability and the damages I need.
I feel like the 2nd mundus is more than a 5th piece bonus, and it's easily changed.

1 protective jewelry + 1 chudan provides more resistances than the lady. It's the absolute worst mundus. It should really be changed to give crit resistance. Why not just go with something like fortified brass in medium, since it's five piece bonus is so much higher than the lady?

Elwendryll · August 2018

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

I'd like to gain some insight from more experienced pvpers, because I've never heard of anyone running this and I can't find a reason why. Mathematically it is on par with other builds (such as brass+shackle, shackle+lich+skoria etc). If people like it I will show detailed setups that I run usually.
Cheers, Masel

I have been running this for a few weeks now. TBS is my favorite set, pairing it with impregnable was quite obvious for pvp, it was almost... an invitation. I run a stamsorc with Selene + TBS + Impregnable. Lover and Lady, in medium. I have no complaints whatsoever on how it performs. I have the survivability and the damages I need.
I feel like the 2nd mundus is more than a 5th piece bonus, and it's easily changed.

1 protective jewelry + 1 chudan provides more resistances than the lady. It's the absolute worst mundus. It should really be changed to give crit resistance. Why not just go with something like fortified brass in medium, since it's five piece bonus is so much higher than the lady?

Maybe because I want the 2p bonus of Selene and other traits on the jewelries?
Anyway, I'll end up with Protective Impregnable jewelry if I eventually decide to transmute them.

Amdar_Godkiller · August 2018

Elwendryll wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

I'd like to gain some insight from more experienced pvpers, because I've never heard of anyone running this and I can't find a reason why. Mathematically it is on par with other builds (such as brass+shackle, shackle+lich+skoria etc). If people like it I will show detailed setups that I run usually.
Cheers, Masel

I have been running this for a few weeks now. TBS is my favorite set, pairing it with impregnable was quite obvious for pvp, it was almost... an invitation. I run a stamsorc with Selene + TBS + Impregnable. Lover and Lady, in medium. I have no complaints whatsoever on how it performs. I have the survivability and the damages I need.
I feel like the 2nd mundus is more than a 5th piece bonus, and it's easily changed.

1 protective jewelry + 1 chudan provides more resistances than the lady. It's the absolute worst mundus. It should really be changed to give crit resistance. Why not just go with something like fortified brass in medium, since it's five piece bonus is so much higher than the lady?

Maybe because I want the 2p bonus of Selene and other traits on the jewelries?
Anyway, I'll end up with Protective Impregnable jewelry if I eventually decide to transmute them.

And you are free to do so. But you're effectively using gold to mine silver.

Lexxypwns · August 2018

I spent like 2 weeks plugging build after build in build editor and never found a TBS setup I liked. I’ve been so deep down this rabbit hole and I didn’t come out with a competitive build, just disappointment.

That Shackle/Lich is already a better build and you’re underestimating Lich. In reality it gives more than tooltip magika recovery depending on Race/buffs/CP. I always count Lich for 500 regen personally.

Koensol · August 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Why divide weapon dmg by two @Waffennacht

It's the Mundus + divines (for TBS effect) and divines + 700 impen (for Impreg)

Because both sets (2) are being used to effectively gain those effects

Makes sense right or am I being crazy?

I wouldn't divide it by two. Stat sheets reflect it and i see your reasoning. Tbs doesn't do anything shackle doesn't do better though imo. If you want stats anyway.

Stat sheets?! Pa!! It's gotta all be in the head!!

Lol, I'm typically on my phone so I gotta do this on the fly, glad I at least made sense lol.

If I'm gonna run impreg I'm gonna is well fitted or sturdy imo

Same, def best traits to pair with impreg.

Please don't say "Def best". In pvp there is no universal "Def best". If I don't need sturdy or well-fitted on my stamsorc or stam warden, then they aren't "Def best" for me. This "ya I know what is best" mentality has driven me away from pve and I don't want to have that over here as well

So far this thread went into a nice discussion with lots of insight, so please don't ruin it with the good ol' "BiS"

Impreg on a mag sorc in the first place should be bad. You don't have to take offense to it, but when you don't understand the value of welfitted when running impregnable vs the very minor increase in damage, that's on you.

1 dodge roll can change the whole momentum of a fight instantly, which essentially saves you resources from taking too recovery from the damage you didn't avoid. The 1k magicka youd get from running divines and mage mundus is nothing compared to that in regards to skilled game play. If you don't grasp that, keep zerging.

Im just trying to help, you're the one who brought hostility here.

There was nothing hostile in my post, I just don't like statements that claim a universal best. I still think that 129 regen and 1.1k max magicka can be just as useful as dodgeroll reduction on builds that barely ever dodge roll, but that's a matter of preference I guess. As I said, on my stamsorc I don't dodgeroll, I use swift + streak to simply kite and los when needed.

Using twice-born is only good when you use divines. With well-fitted or sturdy you're better off running another 5-piece set instead.

Yea no... Try running solo or small scale in no CP Cyrodiil. That extra roll dodge cost reduction is an absolute godsend on magicka builds. Ofc you don't use roll dodge as your main defense, but the main weakness of magicka builds in general is mobility and being susceptible to snares and roots. The only exception being magsorc, because they can streak. But even they get cc spammed. Cyrodiil is full of snare and rootspamming players and being able to dodgeroll freely is a LOT more useful than 129 regen and 1.1k max mag, unless you mostly run in a zerg ofc. But solo it can literally save your life. In CP pvp it is a different story because CP can fill in the blanks. But no CP? No way in hell.

Grimhallow · August 2018

@Masel92

While this is a very well rounded build, and nicely suits a very wide variety of playstyles, I think I can provide some insight as to why not many experienced players run this way.

The short version is that it is aggressively average. I don't mean bad, but it really is a jack of all trades master of none.

If you were to visualize it in a stat triangle between tankiness, damage, and recovery- it would be a perfect circle in the middle. The thing is that normally you can compensate for one of those corners by strengthening two others (traditional nightblades have high damage and recovery, allowing them to keep up pressure single target and kite when outnumbered, lowering their reliance on conventional tankiness; whereas a typical DK might give up traditional recovery in favor of ulti gen, damage, and defense so that they can stay alive in between battle roar, and recover stam while blocking).

Take the three builds I prepared below as examples (they are for stamblade since it's what I know best):

Nice Born Star: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=79332
Well Fitted Impreg: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=79330
Max Stat Build: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=79274

(you'll notice each of these are non-cp and have similar skill and weapon setups to help compare them)

I consider both of these alternative builds to be generally superior to TBS by specializing in their two sides of the hypothetical triangle.

Both of the setups give more damage, so lets compare defense and recovery.

TBS is considerably more tanky than the max stat build, with 1500 more health and 1500 more crit resist. But both the damage, and sustain are much worse. 500 damage is a big difference to still have less recovery, when all you are gaining is some extra health and crit resist. Especially in BGs, where people are getting crits less often and doing less damage with those crits.

The other Impreg build, which has similar defensive stats and waaaay more damage between the Master's bow and Spriggan's superior penetration. You lose some recovery, but have the luxury of 35% cost reduction on roll dodge. If you dodge once every ten seconds that comes out to the equivalent of 255.78 recovery with a dodge cost of 3,654 (3654*0.35=1,278.9/10=127.89*2 since recovery occurs once every two seconds=255.78). And this doesn't take into account the fact that you may have to roll twice, or even three times consecutively, which increases the cost of dodge rolling even more.

So with the second impreg build, you'll have similar sustain while still getting vastly superior damage and similar raw defense.

For these reasons, most people in my groups stay away from TBS in favor of sets that help them maximize their preferred playstyle's potential by cutting out the stats they don't absolutely need in favor of stats that elevate their strengths.

I hope this is a helpful perspective!