ESO poor design choices

noob in denial · August 2018

After playing this game alot in the past 6 months ( although my account exists since beta, i started playing it in 2018 ) i've come to realise that some design decision i consider to be extremely bad, because they imbalance the game and they are not fun. Examples:

1. First i noticed was level/character scaling. It was really cool, basically you could jump straight into action, world bosses fights, dungeons with any level players, without having that feel of being too much behind or simply thinking you'd be left behind if you didn't play. At this point this WAS a good design decision.
Problem is, after a few weeks / months, as i started having a deeper understanding of the game, my opinion slowly changed and eventually made me look at it and think of it as a very bad design decision.

I'll explain my reasoning; while i was leveling, doing more than half and eventually doing almost everything in vvanderfel, although i was getting "stronger" it didn't feel like it and i had no sense of progression. I told to myself; time to change the zone (i was still leveling at this point). Well i noticed no difference when i did change, so i thought maybe i just was unlucky and hit another starting zone, but then it hit me; it was because of the scaling. While leveling it just feels like you're doing ONLY level 1-20 type of quests. Very simple dumbed down stuff/quests that are supposed to introduce you to the game. Not very enjoyable.

2. Probably as an effect of scaling, ALL items give the EXACT amount of stats, the only real difference between them is the 5/5 set option. This is dumbing down at extremes. And there's not much sense of progression either. 99% don't care about the DLC dungeons since, because of how item design/scaling works, the most important part of them ( items ) aren't needed at all. That's why 99% don't care about doing/learning their mechanics since their sole purpose is to provide a skin for very high CP players . Yes can be done at lower cp too, but generally its much easier at high cp.

3. About CP. This brings nothing good. First thing i realised is that one player, depending on how much he plays, needs between 6 months and 2/3 years to get to max CP. It matters because from 160 to 750cp your dmg, sustain and survivability, each goes up easily by ~20-25% ( approximated, haven't done the math ). And that difference allows you to do harder content you wouldn't do otherwise, like vMA or some hardmodes/veterans. Therefore quantity ( time played) and quality ( skills) ratio is too much in favor of quantity.

I assume both zenimax and the community realised something is wrong with this because, as i've heard, CP is disabled in BGs ( not sure if it's disabled in PvP zones like cyrodiil ). But then CP system has PVP passives and its disabled in bgs, see the irony ? It all comes down to scaling and CP system doing more harm than good.

4. Swap bar. Eventually in any game meta sets in and generally one way to do things is, on average, slightly better than others. But the thing is, the way game works, everyone plays the same; eg if you're stam dk you go with dual wield and bow on backbar. No flexibility. Therefore bow feels more like a filler weapon for backbar rather than a main pve weapon.

5. PVP and PVE. By being able to effectively use almost everything for both PVP and PVE, it seems to me that it became a nightmare trying to balance things. For example having no cooldown works for PVE but it doesn't work for pvp. That's why shields and damage are nerfed in PVP. Also there should be a much bigger gap between PVP and PVE oriented sets.

With the right approach there wouldn't be a need to cut the leg entirely trying to treat the disease effect but one could treat the cause instead. Solutions:

1. I'm not sure about this, but it needs some sense of progression. Maybe give each class's starting location scaling and a second more challenging zone to level up where scaling doesn't exist / is limited with more interesting quests.

2. Currently there are 32 dungeons. Same like for point 1, give us a sense of progression. Why do all items give the same amount of stamina/ magicka / hp / spell/weapon damage and so on ? The difference doesn't have to be big to make a very tangible difference or giving the most casual players a hard time, it's about not having a dumbed down system where everything is the same in the name of Balance the god but where everything that sets things appart and make them unique is taken away and everything is a clone of something else. If you have to make everything the same to balance it, it means you have no ideea what you're doing and you're doing it wrong. I mean, going from a magicka sorcerer with power surge to stamina dk, the 20% dmg buff and it's effects are almost the same. For those who don't don't understand why this is bad, imagine a shooter where every weapon is almost the same in stats, just looks bit different. It's plain stupid.

3. Remove CP as it is and replace it with a talent systems for level 50 players. Again, it doesn't have to be replaced with a very dumbed down systems like the examples above, but made in a way that it has more than one option to chose from based on playstyle for both pvp and pve. Example: sorcerer: stamina pvp/pve build, pet stamina pvp/pve build, magicka aoe/solo target pvp build.

This would remove the huge downsides curent CP system has, like the artificial gap between players and the very long time needed to level up.

4. Swapbar . Maybe remove it entirely and add more slots, starting with 1 or 2 ?. This way we'll have more unique builds/weapon usage than we currently have. Bow should be it's own thing in pve, not just backbar only option for aoe/dots.
One could argue that bow is needed for ranged fights but then there are skills that don't require a bow ( and more could be added ).

5. PVP and PVE. Widen the gap between PVP and PVE item stats. PVP oriented sets should be much stronger than PVE sets, in PVP. Maybe add EACH pvp set, like shacklebreaker, a pvp stat like 5% dmg reduction/boost against players. Some sets do have these options, but some obvious pvp sets like sloads and shacklebreaker ( don't be confused into thinking i think they should be buffed, it's just about making pvp sets even more pvp orietend ).

Add cooldown to specific skills like damage shields. This way they won't affect too much PVE but they will balance PVP. Example: hardened ward, lasts for 10seconds, 4seconds cooldown. This way you wont be able to survive 1v3 in BGs by spamming shields and this way it wont have to be nerfed in efficiency by 50%, which is a very crude way to balance things.

As a conclusion, i think zenimax has a very wrong approach regarding balance in this game and i'd like to read more opinions.

EDIT:

6. A secondary spec is needed; i want to PVP but i'd have to reset skills and CP ( there are pvp CP passives ). This is the main reason that stops me from PVP-ing.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2018

noob in denial wrote: »

After playing this game alot in the past 6 months i've come to realise that some design decision i consider to be extremely bad, because they imbalance the game and they are not fun. Examples:

1. First i noticed was level/character scaling. It was really cool, basically you could jump straight into action, world bosses fights, dungeons with any level players, without having that feel of being too much behind or simply thinking you'd be left behind if you didn't play. At this point this WAS a good design decision.
Problem is, after a few weeks / months, as i started having a deeper understanding of the game, my opinion slowly changed and eventually made me look at it and think of it as a very bad design decision.

I'll explain my reasoning; while i was leveling, doing more than half and eventually doing almost everything in vvanderfel, although i was getting "stronger" it didn't feel like it and i had no sense of progression. I told to myself; time to change the zone (i was still leveling at this point). Well i noticed no difference when i did change, so i thought maybe i just was unlucky and hit another starting zone, but then it hit me; it was because of the scaling. While leveling it just feels like you're doing ONLY level 1-20 type of quests. Very simple dumbed down stuff/quests that are supposed to introduce you to the game. Not very enjoyable.

2. Probably as an effect of scaling, ALL items give the EXACT amount of stats, the only real difference between them is the 5/5 set option. This is dumbing down at extremes. And there's not much sense of progression either. 99% don't care about the DLC dungeons since, because of how item design/scaling works, the most important part of them ( items ) aren't needed at all. That's why 99% don't care about doing/learning their mechanics since their sole purpose is to provide a skin for very high CP players . Yes can be done at lower cp too, but generally its much easier at high cp.

3. About CP. This brings nothing good. First thing i realised is that one player, depending on how much he plays, needs between 6 months and 2/3 years to get to max CP. It matters because from 160 to 750cp your dmg, sustain and survivability, each goes up easily by ~20-25% ( approximated, haven't done the math ). And that difference allows you to do harder content you wouldn't do otherwise, like vMA or some hardmodes/veterans. Therefore quantity ( time played) and quality ( skills) ratio is too much in favor of quantity.

I assume both zenimax and the community realised something is wrong with this because, as i've heard, CP is disabled in BGs ( not sure if it's disabled in PvP zones like cyrodiil ). But then CP system has PVP passives and its disabled in bgs, see the irony ? It all comes down to scaling and CP system doing more harm than good.

4. Swap bar. Eventually in any game meta sets in and generally one way to do things is, on average, slightly better than others. But the thing is, the way game works, everyone plays the same; eg if you're stam dk you go with dual wield and bow on backbar. No flexibility. Therefore bow feels more like a filler weapon for backbar rather than a main pve weapon.

5. PVP and PVE. By being able to effectively use almost everything for both PVP and PVE, it seems to me that it became a nightmare trying to balance things. For example having no cooldown works for PVE but it doesn't work for pvp. That's why shields and damage are nerfed in PVP. Also there should be a much bigger gap between PVP and PVE oriented sets.

With the right approach there wouldn't be a need to cut the leg entirely trying to treat the disease effect but one could treat the cause instead. Solutions:

1. I'm not sure about this, but it needs some sense of progression. Maybe give each class's starting location scaling and a second more challenging zone to level up where scaling doesn't exist / is limited with more interesting quests.

2. Currently there are 32 dungeons. Same like for point 1, give us a sense of progression. Why do all items give the same amount of stamina/ magicka / hp / spell/weapon damage and so on ? The difference doesn't have to be big to make a very tangible difference or giving the most casual players a hard time, it's about not having a dumbed down system where everything is the same in the name of Balance the god but where everything that sets things appart and make them unique is taken away and everything is a clone of something else. If you have to make everything the same to balance it, it means you have no ideea what you're doing and you're doing it wrong. I mean, going from a magicka sorcerer with power surge to stamina dk, the 20% dmg buff and it's effects are almost the same. For those who don't don't understand why this is bad, imagine a shooter where every weapon is almost the same in stats, just looks bit different. It's plain stupid.

3. Remove CP as it is and replace it with a talent systems for level 50 players. Again, it doesn't have to be replaced with a very dumbed down systems like the examples above, but made in a way that it has more than one option to chose from based on playstyle for both pvp and pve. Example: sorcerer: stamina pvp/pve build, pet stamina pvp/pve build, magicka aoe/solo target pvp build.

This would remove the huge downsides curent CP system has, like the artificial gap between players and the very long time needed to level up.

5. Swapbar . Maybe remove it entirely and add more slots, starting with 1 or 2 ?. This way we'll have more unique builds/weapon usage than we currently have. Bow should be it's own thing in pve, not just backbar only option for aoe/dots.
One could argue that bow is needed for ranged fights but then there are skills that don't require a bow ( and more could be added ).

7. PVP and PVE. Widen the gap between PVP and PVE item stats. PVP oriented sets should be much stronger than PVE sets, in PVP. Maybe add EACH pvp set, like shacklebreaker, a pvp stat like 5% dmg reduction/boost against players. Some sets do have these options, but some obvious pvp sets like sloads and shacklebreaker ( don't be confused into thinking i think they should be buffed, it's just about making pvp sets even more pvp orietend ).

Add cooldown to specific skills like damage shields. This way they won't affect too much PVE but they will balance PVP. Example: hardened ward, lasts for 10seconds, 4seconds cooldown. This way you wont be able to survive 1v3 in BGs by spamming shields and this way it wont have to be nerfed in efficiency by 50%, which is a very crude way to balance things.

As a conclusion, i think zenimax has a very wrong approach regarding balance in this game and i'd like to read more opinions.

you have noticed what a lot of us have after tam 1 was introduced. ZOS married this horizontal progression system in stead of a vertical system a long time ago . the CP system really was just VR increase passives unlocked, the cp system just seems unfinished and really does nothing to solidify roles or consquentiial decisions in your chrs development.

I dont think ZOS at this point will unmarry their design philosphy Matt is very happy with this hybrid single player RPG design it feels very flat to me. after i bought morrowind and played for a few days i dumped ESO for good its just not a fun MMO. its a medicore RPG online but if you played from launch and have been part of so many guilds that no longer play once you hit the back end of the game .Many are left scratching your head asking whats the point. all of your observations are spot on from my perspective. the game never emerged and matured it puts out content that easy eas bake and all of its unique items are cosmetic based that they sell in a gambling box. GG Zenimax keep milking the churn population

ADarklore · August 2018

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

noob in denial wrote: »

After playing this game alot in the past 6 months i've come to realise that some design decision i consider to be extremely bad, because they imbalance the game and they are not fun. Examples:

1. First i noticed was level/character scaling. It was really cool, basically you could jump straight into action, world bosses fights, dungeons with any level players, without having that feel of being too much behind or simply thinking you'd be left behind if you didn't play. At this point this WAS a good design decision.
Problem is, after a few weeks / months, as i started having a deeper understanding of the game, my opinion slowly changed and eventually made me look at it and think of it as a very bad design decision.

I'll explain my reasoning; while i was leveling, doing more than half and eventually doing almost everything in vvanderfel, although i was getting "stronger" it didn't feel like it and i had no sense of progression. I told to myself; time to change the zone (i was still leveling at this point). Well i noticed no difference when i did change, so i thought maybe i just was unlucky and hit another starting zone, but then it hit me; it was because of the scaling. While leveling it just feels like you're doing ONLY level 1-20 type of quests. Very simple dumbed down stuff/quests that are supposed to introduce you to the game. Not very enjoyable.

2. Probably as an effect of scaling, ALL items give the EXACT amount of stats, the only real difference between them is the 5/5 set option. This is dumbing down at extremes. And there's not much sense of progression either. 99% don't care about the DLC dungeons since, because of how item design/scaling works, the most important part of them ( items ) aren't needed at all. That's why 99% don't care about doing/learning their mechanics since their sole purpose is to provide a skin for very high CP players . Yes can be done at lower cp too, but generally its much easier at high cp.

3. About CP. This brings nothing good. First thing i realised is that one player, depending on how much he plays, needs between 6 months and 2/3 years to get to max CP. It matters because from 160 to 750cp your dmg, sustain and survivability, each goes up easily by ~20-25% ( approximated, haven't done the math ). And that difference allows you to do harder content you wouldn't do otherwise, like vMA or some hardmodes/veterans. Therefore quantity ( time played) and quality ( skills) ratio is too much in favor of quantity.

I assume both zenimax and the community realised something is wrong with this because, as i've heard, CP is disabled in BGs ( not sure if it's disabled in PvP zones like cyrodiil ). But then CP system has PVP passives and its disabled in bgs, see the irony ? It all comes down to scaling and CP system doing more harm than good.

4. Swap bar. Eventually in any game meta sets in and generally one way to do things is, on average, slightly better than others. But the thing is, the way game works, everyone plays the same; eg if you're stam dk you go with dual wield and bow on backbar. No flexibility. Therefore bow feels more like a filler weapon for backbar rather than a main pve weapon.

5. PVP and PVE. By being able to effectively use almost everything for both PVP and PVE, it seems to me that it became a nightmare trying to balance things. For example having no cooldown works for PVE but it doesn't work for pvp. That's why shields and damage are nerfed in PVP. Also there should be a much bigger gap between PVP and PVE oriented sets.

With the right approach there wouldn't be a need to cut the leg entirely trying to treat the disease effect but one could treat the cause instead. Solutions:

1. I'm not sure about this, but it needs some sense of progression. Maybe give each class's starting location scaling and a second more challenging zone to level up where scaling doesn't exist / is limited with more interesting quests.

2. Currently there are 32 dungeons. Same like for point 1, give us a sense of progression. Why do all items give the same amount of stamina/ magicka / hp / spell/weapon damage and so on ? The difference doesn't have to be big to make a very tangible difference or giving the most casual players a hard time, it's about not having a dumbed down system where everything is the same in the name of Balance the god but where everything that sets things appart and make them unique is taken away and everything is a clone of something else. If you have to make everything the same to balance it, it means you have no ideea what you're doing and you're doing it wrong. I mean, going from a magicka sorcerer with power surge to stamina dk, the 20% dmg buff and it's effects are almost the same. For those who don't don't understand why this is bad, imagine a shooter where every weapon is almost the same in stats, just looks bit different. It's plain stupid.

3. Remove CP as it is and replace it with a talent systems for level 50 players. Again, it doesn't have to be replaced with a very dumbed down systems like the examples above, but made in a way that it has more than one option to chose from based on playstyle for both pvp and pve. Example: sorcerer: stamina pvp/pve build, pet stamina pvp/pve build, magicka aoe/solo target pvp build.

This would remove the huge downsides curent CP system has, like the artificial gap between players and the very long time needed to level up.

5. Swapbar . Maybe remove it entirely and add more slots, starting with 1 or 2 ?. This way we'll have more unique builds/weapon usage than we currently have. Bow should be it's own thing in pve, not just backbar only option for aoe/dots.
One could argue that bow is needed for ranged fights but then there are skills that don't require a bow ( and more could be added ).

7. PVP and PVE. Widen the gap between PVP and PVE item stats. PVP oriented sets should be much stronger than PVE sets, in PVP. Maybe add EACH pvp set, like shacklebreaker, a pvp stat like 5% dmg reduction/boost against players. Some sets do have these options, but some obvious pvp sets like sloads and shacklebreaker ( don't be confused into thinking i think they should be buffed, it's just about making pvp sets even more pvp orietend ).

Add cooldown to specific skills like damage shields. This way they won't affect too much PVE but they will balance PVP. Example: hardened ward, lasts for 10seconds, 4seconds cooldown. This way you wont be able to survive 1v3 in BGs by spamming shields and this way it wont have to be nerfed in efficiency by 50%, which is a very crude way to balance things.

As a conclusion, i think zenimax has a very wrong approach regarding balance in this game and i'd like to read more opinions.

you have noticed what a lot of us have after tam 1 was introduced. ZOS married this horizontal progression system in stead of a vertical system a long time ago . the CP system really was just VR increase passives unlocked, the cp system just seems unfinished and really does nothing to solidify roles or consquentiial decisions in your chrs development.

I dont think ZOS at this point will unmarry their design philosphy Matt is very happy with this hybrid single player RPG design it feels very flat to me. after i bought morrowind and played for a few days i dumped ESO for good its just not a fun MMO. its a medicore RPG online but if you played from launch and have been part of so many guilds that no longer play once you hit the back end of the game .Many are left scratching your head asking whats the point. all of your observations are spot on from my perspective. the game never emerged and matured it puts out content that easy eas bake and all of its unique items are cosmetic based that they sell in a gambling box. GG Zenimax keep milking the churn population

In reply to bolded... and yet here you sit... trolling the forums on a game you say you 'dumped for good'. This tells me that 1) you need to get a life, or 2) you haven't found anything better and so you continue to troll the forums in hopes that ESO suddenly becomes 'everything you've always wanted' even though MILLIONS of players are happy with the current design- in other words, perhaps it's time you actually DO move on 'for good'.

In regards to OP... considering the fact that you 'had an account in beta' but apparently never played much and then come back after numerous changes and wonder what happened. If you had played the game consistently from beta, you'd have seen the necessity for the changes.

There are numerous threads out there explaining why One Tamriel made the game better for the MAJORITY of players, so I'm not going to repeat. Second, this is an MMO (is this your first MMO OP?), it's not something that a new player should be able to start and expect to be at the top end after just a few weeks... this would not reward longevity and would, instead, reward people coming in... playing to the top and leaving.

You advocate for 'adding more buttons' instead of the swap bar... so please explain how this would work for console players who have limited buttons?

A lot of your argument I expect to see from a new player who has no clue, yet, coming to the forums to advocate for changes simply to make the game more to 'YOUR' liking... seems rather arrogant. Considering that ESO has been rated one of the TOP MMOs in recent years, I'd say they have something going for them with the current design.

Does it have problems, absolutely... but is it the horrible environment that you have stated, NO WAY. I've been playing for almost five years now and I play 10-12 hours three to four days per week... so I know a thing or two about the game and its history. I don't do 'end game' or PvP... so I cannot comment on the state of that content, but as far as questing goes, it's pretty SPOT ON. Too many fetch quests, sure... but it's an MMO and is meant to be drawn out and take time and involve a GRIND.

Valrien · August 2018

ADarklore wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

noob in denial wrote: »

After playing this game alot in the past 6 months i've come to realise that some design decision i consider to be extremely bad, because they imbalance the game and they are not fun. Examples:

1. First i noticed was level/character scaling. It was really cool, basically you could jump straight into action, world bosses fights, dungeons with any level players, without having that feel of being too much behind or simply thinking you'd be left behind if you didn't play. At this point this WAS a good design decision.
Problem is, after a few weeks / months, as i started having a deeper understanding of the game, my opinion slowly changed and eventually made me look at it and think of it as a very bad design decision.

I'll explain my reasoning; while i was leveling, doing more than half and eventually doing almost everything in vvanderfel, although i was getting "stronger" it didn't feel like it and i had no sense of progression. I told to myself; time to change the zone (i was still leveling at this point). Well i noticed no difference when i did change, so i thought maybe i just was unlucky and hit another starting zone, but then it hit me; it was because of the scaling. While leveling it just feels like you're doing ONLY level 1-20 type of quests. Very simple dumbed down stuff/quests that are supposed to introduce you to the game. Not very enjoyable.

2. Probably as an effect of scaling, ALL items give the EXACT amount of stats, the only real difference between them is the 5/5 set option. This is dumbing down at extremes. And there's not much sense of progression either. 99% don't care about the DLC dungeons since, because of how item design/scaling works, the most important part of them ( items ) aren't needed at all. That's why 99% don't care about doing/learning their mechanics since their sole purpose is to provide a skin for very high CP players . Yes can be done at lower cp too, but generally its much easier at high cp.

3. About CP. This brings nothing good. First thing i realised is that one player, depending on how much he plays, needs between 6 months and 2/3 years to get to max CP. It matters because from 160 to 750cp your dmg, sustain and survivability, each goes up easily by ~20-25% ( approximated, haven't done the math ). And that difference allows you to do harder content you wouldn't do otherwise, like vMA or some hardmodes/veterans. Therefore quantity ( time played) and quality ( skills) ratio is too much in favor of quantity.

I assume both zenimax and the community realised something is wrong with this because, as i've heard, CP is disabled in BGs ( not sure if it's disabled in PvP zones like cyrodiil ). But then CP system has PVP passives and its disabled in bgs, see the irony ? It all comes down to scaling and CP system doing more harm than good.

4. Swap bar. Eventually in any game meta sets in and generally one way to do things is, on average, slightly better than others. But the thing is, the way game works, everyone plays the same; eg if you're stam dk you go with dual wield and bow on backbar. No flexibility. Therefore bow feels more like a filler weapon for backbar rather than a main pve weapon.

5. PVP and PVE. By being able to effectively use almost everything for both PVP and PVE, it seems to me that it became a nightmare trying to balance things. For example having no cooldown works for PVE but it doesn't work for pvp. That's why shields and damage are nerfed in PVP. Also there should be a much bigger gap between PVP and PVE oriented sets.

With the right approach there wouldn't be a need to cut the leg entirely trying to treat the disease effect but one could treat the cause instead. Solutions:

1. I'm not sure about this, but it needs some sense of progression. Maybe give each class's starting location scaling and a second more challenging zone to level up where scaling doesn't exist / is limited with more interesting quests.

2. Currently there are 32 dungeons. Same like for point 1, give us a sense of progression. Why do all items give the same amount of stamina/ magicka / hp / spell/weapon damage and so on ? The difference doesn't have to be big to make a very tangible difference or giving the most casual players a hard time, it's about not having a dumbed down system where everything is the same in the name of Balance the god but where everything that sets things appart and make them unique is taken away and everything is a clone of something else. If you have to make everything the same to balance it, it means you have no ideea what you're doing and you're doing it wrong. I mean, going from a magicka sorcerer with power surge to stamina dk, the 20% dmg buff and it's effects are almost the same. For those who don't don't understand why this is bad, imagine a shooter where every weapon is almost the same in stats, just looks bit different. It's plain stupid.

3. Remove CP as it is and replace it with a talent systems for level 50 players. Again, it doesn't have to be replaced with a very dumbed down systems like the examples above, but made in a way that it has more than one option to chose from based on playstyle for both pvp and pve. Example: sorcerer: stamina pvp/pve build, pet stamina pvp/pve build, magicka aoe/solo target pvp build.

This would remove the huge downsides curent CP system has, like the artificial gap between players and the very long time needed to level up.

5. Swapbar . Maybe remove it entirely and add more slots, starting with 1 or 2 ?. This way we'll have more unique builds/weapon usage than we currently have. Bow should be it's own thing in pve, not just backbar only option for aoe/dots.
One could argue that bow is needed for ranged fights but then there are skills that don't require a bow ( and more could be added ).

7. PVP and PVE. Widen the gap between PVP and PVE item stats. PVP oriented sets should be much stronger than PVE sets, in PVP. Maybe add EACH pvp set, like shacklebreaker, a pvp stat like 5% dmg reduction/boost against players. Some sets do have these options, but some obvious pvp sets like sloads and shacklebreaker ( don't be confused into thinking i think they should be buffed, it's just about making pvp sets even more pvp orietend ).

Add cooldown to specific skills like damage shields. This way they won't affect too much PVE but they will balance PVP. Example: hardened ward, lasts for 10seconds, 4seconds cooldown. This way you wont be able to survive 1v3 in BGs by spamming shields and this way it wont have to be nerfed in efficiency by 50%, which is a very crude way to balance things.

As a conclusion, i think zenimax has a very wrong approach regarding balance in this game and i'd like to read more opinions.

you have noticed what a lot of us have after tam 1 was introduced. ZOS married this horizontal progression system in stead of a vertical system a long time ago . the CP system really was just VR increase passives unlocked, the cp system just seems unfinished and really does nothing to solidify roles or consquentiial decisions in your chrs development.

I dont think ZOS at this point will unmarry their design philosphy Matt is very happy with this hybrid single player RPG design it feels very flat to me. after i bought morrowind and played for a few days i dumped ESO for good its just not a fun MMO. its a medicore RPG online but if you played from launch and have been part of so many guilds that no longer play once you hit the back end of the game .Many are left scratching your head asking whats the point. all of your observations are spot on from my perspective. the game never emerged and matured it puts out content that easy eas bake and all of its unique items are cosmetic based that they sell in a gambling box. GG Zenimax keep milking the churn population

In reply to bolded... and yet here you sit... trolling the forums on a game you say you 'dumped for good'. This tells me that 1) you need to get a life, or 2) you haven't found anything better and so you continue to troll the forums in hopes that ESO suddenly becomes 'everything you've always wanted' even though MILLIONS of players are happy with the current design- in other words, perhaps it's time you actually DO move on 'for good'.

In regards to OP... considering the fact that you 'had an account in beta' but apparently never played much and then come back after numerous changes and wonder what happened. If you had played the game consistently from beta, you'd have seen the necessity for the changes.

There are numerous threads out there explaining why One Tamriel made the game better for the MAJORITY of players, so I'm not going to repeat. Second, this is an MMO (is this your first MMO OP?), it's not something that a new player should be able to start and expect to be at the top end after just a few weeks... this would not reward longevity and would, instead, reward people coming in... playing to the top and leaving.

You advocate for 'adding more buttons' instead of the swap bar... so please explain how this would work for console players who have limited buttons?

A lot of your argument I expect to see from a new player who has no clue, yet, coming to the forums to advocate for changes simply to make the game more to 'YOUR' liking... seems rather arrogant. Considering that ESO has been rated one of the TOP MMOs in recent years, I'd say they have something going for them with the current design.

Does it have problems, absolutely... but is it the horrible environment that you have stated, NO WAY. I've been playing for almost five years now and I play 10-12 hours three to four days per week... so I know a thing or two about the game and its history. I don't do 'end game' or PvP... so I cannot comment on the state of that content, but as far as questing goes, it's pretty SPOT ON. Too many fetch quests, sure... but it's an MMO and is meant to be drawn out and take time and involve a GRIND.

I've been playing since beta and a long time after that. I actually appreciated the game much more as it was back then than it is now.

It's still fun, but it's not AS fun

noob in denial · August 2018

ADarklore wrote: »

Second, this is an MMO (is this your first MMO OP?), it's not something that a new player should be able to start and expect to be at the top end after just a few weeks... this would not reward longevity and would, instead, reward people coming in... playing to the top and leaving.

You probably didn't read my post thoroughly or just didn't understand it. Based on what i said it would have opposites effects of what you're saying. Adding more gradual item farming ( from weaker to stronger, since the hard dungeons could either be too hard or gear quality locked ) than is currently possible it would reward longevity and progression. Removing CP by adding a talent tree ( obviously not equivalant to 750CP ) would also add to longevity and progression since it would make it harder.

Please next time try to pay more attention while reading, there's no need to fill the thread with spam.

ADarklore wrote: »

You advocate for 'adding more buttons' instead of the swap bar... so please explain how this would work for console players who have limited buttons?

I'm talking for PC/mac versions. I'd imagine for consoles they would have to press the same swap bar button and they'd gain acces to the other skills. It wouldn't really make a difference since console / desktop versions don't play together ( do they ? therefore console players wouldn't be put at a disadvantage. I know very few actually use controller for desktop, and they're already putting themselves at a disadvantages by doing that and it would be slightly harder for them, but a compromise has to be made.

Valrien · August 2018

ADarklore wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

noob in denial wrote: »

After playing this game alot in the past 6 months i've come to realise that some design decision i consider to be extremely bad, because they imbalance the game and they are not fun. Examples:

1. First i noticed was level/character scaling. It was really cool, basically you could jump straight into action, world bosses fights, dungeons with any level players, without having that feel of being too much behind or simply thinking you'd be left behind if you didn't play. At this point this WAS a good design decision.
Problem is, after a few weeks / months, as i started having a deeper understanding of the game, my opinion slowly changed and eventually made me look at it and think of it as a very bad design decision.

I'll explain my reasoning; while i was leveling, doing more than half and eventually doing almost everything in vvanderfel, although i was getting "stronger" it didn't feel like it and i had no sense of progression. I told to myself; time to change the zone (i was still leveling at this point). Well i noticed no difference when i did change, so i thought maybe i just was unlucky and hit another starting zone, but then it hit me; it was because of the scaling. While leveling it just feels like you're doing ONLY level 1-20 type of quests. Very simple dumbed down stuff/quests that are supposed to introduce you to the game. Not very enjoyable.

2. Probably as an effect of scaling, ALL items give the EXACT amount of stats, the only real difference between them is the 5/5 set option. This is dumbing down at extremes. And there's not much sense of progression either. 99% don't care about the DLC dungeons since, because of how item design/scaling works, the most important part of them ( items ) aren't needed at all. That's why 99% don't care about doing/learning their mechanics since their sole purpose is to provide a skin for very high CP players . Yes can be done at lower cp too, but generally its much easier at high cp.

3. About CP. This brings nothing good. First thing i realised is that one player, depending on how much he plays, needs between 6 months and 2/3 years to get to max CP. It matters because from 160 to 750cp your dmg, sustain and survivability, each goes up easily by ~20-25% ( approximated, haven't done the math ). And that difference allows you to do harder content you wouldn't do otherwise, like vMA or some hardmodes/veterans. Therefore quantity ( time played) and quality ( skills) ratio is too much in favor of quantity.

I assume both zenimax and the community realised something is wrong with this because, as i've heard, CP is disabled in BGs ( not sure if it's disabled in PvP zones like cyrodiil ). But then CP system has PVP passives and its disabled in bgs, see the irony ? It all comes down to scaling and CP system doing more harm than good.

4. Swap bar. Eventually in any game meta sets in and generally one way to do things is, on average, slightly better than others. But the thing is, the way game works, everyone plays the same; eg if you're stam dk you go with dual wield and bow on backbar. No flexibility. Therefore bow feels more like a filler weapon for backbar rather than a main pve weapon.

5. PVP and PVE. By being able to effectively use almost everything for both PVP and PVE, it seems to me that it became a nightmare trying to balance things. For example having no cooldown works for PVE but it doesn't work for pvp. That's why shields and damage are nerfed in PVP. Also there should be a much bigger gap between PVP and PVE oriented sets.

With the right approach there wouldn't be a need to cut the leg entirely trying to treat the disease effect but one could treat the cause instead. Solutions:

1. I'm not sure about this, but it needs some sense of progression. Maybe give each class's starting location scaling and a second more challenging zone to level up where scaling doesn't exist / is limited with more interesting quests.

2. Currently there are 32 dungeons. Same like for point 1, give us a sense of progression. Why do all items give the same amount of stamina/ magicka / hp / spell/weapon damage and so on ? The difference doesn't have to be big to make a very tangible difference or giving the most casual players a hard time, it's about not having a dumbed down system where everything is the same in the name of Balance the god but where everything that sets things appart and make them unique is taken away and everything is a clone of something else. If you have to make everything the same to balance it, it means you have no ideea what you're doing and you're doing it wrong. I mean, going from a magicka sorcerer with power surge to stamina dk, the 20% dmg buff and it's effects are almost the same. For those who don't don't understand why this is bad, imagine a shooter where every weapon is almost the same in stats, just looks bit different. It's plain stupid.

3. Remove CP as it is and replace it with a talent systems for level 50 players. Again, it doesn't have to be replaced with a very dumbed down systems like the examples above, but made in a way that it has more than one option to chose from based on playstyle for both pvp and pve. Example: sorcerer: stamina pvp/pve build, pet stamina pvp/pve build, magicka aoe/solo target pvp build.

This would remove the huge downsides curent CP system has, like the artificial gap between players and the very long time needed to level up.

5. Swapbar . Maybe remove it entirely and add more slots, starting with 1 or 2 ?. This way we'll have more unique builds/weapon usage than we currently have. Bow should be it's own thing in pve, not just backbar only option for aoe/dots.
One could argue that bow is needed for ranged fights but then there are skills that don't require a bow ( and more could be added ).

7. PVP and PVE. Widen the gap between PVP and PVE item stats. PVP oriented sets should be much stronger than PVE sets, in PVP. Maybe add EACH pvp set, like shacklebreaker, a pvp stat like 5% dmg reduction/boost against players. Some sets do have these options, but some obvious pvp sets like sloads and shacklebreaker ( don't be confused into thinking i think they should be buffed, it's just about making pvp sets even more pvp orietend ).

Add cooldown to specific skills like damage shields. This way they won't affect too much PVE but they will balance PVP. Example: hardened ward, lasts for 10seconds, 4seconds cooldown. This way you wont be able to survive 1v3 in BGs by spamming shields and this way it wont have to be nerfed in efficiency by 50%, which is a very crude way to balance things.

As a conclusion, i think zenimax has a very wrong approach regarding balance in this game and i'd like to read more opinions.

you have noticed what a lot of us have after tam 1 was introduced. ZOS married this horizontal progression system in stead of a vertical system a long time ago . the CP system really was just VR increase passives unlocked, the cp system just seems unfinished and really does nothing to solidify roles or consquentiial decisions in your chrs development.

I dont think ZOS at this point will unmarry their design philosphy Matt is very happy with this hybrid single player RPG design it feels very flat to me. after i bought morrowind and played for a few days i dumped ESO for good its just not a fun MMO. its a medicore RPG online but if you played from launch and have been part of so many guilds that no longer play once you hit the back end of the game .Many are left scratching your head asking whats the point. all of your observations are spot on from my perspective. the game never emerged and matured it puts out content that easy eas bake and all of its unique items are cosmetic based that they sell in a gambling box. GG Zenimax keep milking the churn population

In reply to bolded... and yet here you sit... trolling the forums on a game you say you 'dumped for good'. This tells me that 1) you need to get a life, or 2) you haven't found anything better and so you continue to troll the forums in hopes that ESO suddenly becomes 'everything you've always wanted' even though MILLIONS of players are happy with the current design- in other words, perhaps it's time you actually DO move on 'for good'.

In regards to OP... considering the fact that you 'had an account in beta' but apparently never played much and then come back after numerous changes and wonder what happened. If you had played the game consistently from beta, you'd have seen the necessity for the changes.

There are numerous threads out there explaining why One Tamriel made the game better for the MAJORITY of players, so I'm not going to repeat. Second, this is an MMO (is this your first MMO OP?), it's not something that a new player should be able to start and expect to be at the top end after just a few weeks... this would not reward longevity and would, instead, reward people coming in... playing to the top and leaving.

You advocate for 'adding more buttons' instead of the swap bar... so please explain how this would work for console players who have limited buttons?

A lot of your argument I expect to see from a new player who has no clue, yet, coming to the forums to advocate for changes simply to make the game more to 'YOUR' liking... seems rather arrogant. Considering that ESO has been rated one of the TOP MMOs in recent years, I'd say they have something going for them with the current design.

Does it have problems, absolutely... but is it the horrible environment that you have stated, NO WAY. I've been playing for almost five years now and I play 10-12 hours three to four days per week... so I know a thing or two about the game and its history. I don't do 'end game' or PvP... so I cannot comment on the state of that content, but as far as questing goes, it's pretty SPOT ON. Too many fetch quests, sure... but it's an MMO and is meant to be drawn out and take time and involve a GRIND.

Also, as far as "more buttons" go it wouldn't be too hard. FFXIV has 32 buttons per bar for controllers.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2018

ADarklore wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

noob in denial wrote: »

After playing this game alot in the past 6 months i've come to realise that some design decision i consider to be extremely bad, because they imbalance the game and they are not fun. Examples:

1. First i noticed was level/character scaling. It was really cool, basically you could jump straight into action, world bosses fights, dungeons with any level players, without having that feel of being too much behind or simply thinking you'd be left behind if you didn't play. At this point this WAS a good design decision.
Problem is, after a few weeks / months, as i started having a deeper understanding of the game, my opinion slowly changed and eventually made me look at it and think of it as a very bad design decision.

I'll explain my reasoning; while i was leveling, doing more than half and eventually doing almost everything in vvanderfel, although i was getting "stronger" it didn't feel like it and i had no sense of progression. I told to myself; time to change the zone (i was still leveling at this point). Well i noticed no difference when i did change, so i thought maybe i just was unlucky and hit another starting zone, but then it hit me; it was because of the scaling. While leveling it just feels like you're doing ONLY level 1-20 type of quests. Very simple dumbed down stuff/quests that are supposed to introduce you to the game. Not very enjoyable.

2. Probably as an effect of scaling, ALL items give the EXACT amount of stats, the only real difference between them is the 5/5 set option. This is dumbing down at extremes. And there's not much sense of progression either. 99% don't care about the DLC dungeons since, because of how item design/scaling works, the most important part of them ( items ) aren't needed at all. That's why 99% don't care about doing/learning their mechanics since their sole purpose is to provide a skin for very high CP players . Yes can be done at lower cp too, but generally its much easier at high cp.

3. About CP. This brings nothing good. First thing i realised is that one player, depending on how much he plays, needs between 6 months and 2/3 years to get to max CP. It matters because from 160 to 750cp your dmg, sustain and survivability, each goes up easily by ~20-25% ( approximated, haven't done the math ). And that difference allows you to do harder content you wouldn't do otherwise, like vMA or some hardmodes/veterans. Therefore quantity ( time played) and quality ( skills) ratio is too much in favor of quantity.

I assume both zenimax and the community realised something is wrong with this because, as i've heard, CP is disabled in BGs ( not sure if it's disabled in PvP zones like cyrodiil ). But then CP system has PVP passives and its disabled in bgs, see the irony ? It all comes down to scaling and CP system doing more harm than good.

4. Swap bar. Eventually in any game meta sets in and generally one way to do things is, on average, slightly better than others. But the thing is, the way game works, everyone plays the same; eg if you're stam dk you go with dual wield and bow on backbar. No flexibility. Therefore bow feels more like a filler weapon for backbar rather than a main pve weapon.

5. PVP and PVE. By being able to effectively use almost everything for both PVP and PVE, it seems to me that it became a nightmare trying to balance things. For example having no cooldown works for PVE but it doesn't work for pvp. That's why shields and damage are nerfed in PVP. Also there should be a much bigger gap between PVP and PVE oriented sets.

With the right approach there wouldn't be a need to cut the leg entirely trying to treat the disease effect but one could treat the cause instead. Solutions:

1. I'm not sure about this, but it needs some sense of progression. Maybe give each class's starting location scaling and a second more challenging zone to level up where scaling doesn't exist / is limited with more interesting quests.

2. Currently there are 32 dungeons. Same like for point 1, give us a sense of progression. Why do all items give the same amount of stamina/ magicka / hp / spell/weapon damage and so on ? The difference doesn't have to be big to make a very tangible difference or giving the most casual players a hard time, it's about not having a dumbed down system where everything is the same in the name of Balance the god but where everything that sets things appart and make them unique is taken away and everything is a clone of something else. If you have to make everything the same to balance it, it means you have no ideea what you're doing and you're doing it wrong. I mean, going from a magicka sorcerer with power surge to stamina dk, the 20% dmg buff and it's effects are almost the same. For those who don't don't understand why this is bad, imagine a shooter where every weapon is almost the same in stats, just looks bit different. It's plain stupid.

3. Remove CP as it is and replace it with a talent systems for level 50 players. Again, it doesn't have to be replaced with a very dumbed down systems like the examples above, but made in a way that it has more than one option to chose from based on playstyle for both pvp and pve. Example: sorcerer: stamina pvp/pve build, pet stamina pvp/pve build, magicka aoe/solo target pvp build.

This would remove the huge downsides curent CP system has, like the artificial gap between players and the very long time needed to level up.

5. Swapbar . Maybe remove it entirely and add more slots, starting with 1 or 2 ?. This way we'll have more unique builds/weapon usage than we currently have. Bow should be it's own thing in pve, not just backbar only option for aoe/dots.
One could argue that bow is needed for ranged fights but then there are skills that don't require a bow ( and more could be added ).

7. PVP and PVE. Widen the gap between PVP and PVE item stats. PVP oriented sets should be much stronger than PVE sets, in PVP. Maybe add EACH pvp set, like shacklebreaker, a pvp stat like 5% dmg reduction/boost against players. Some sets do have these options, but some obvious pvp sets like sloads and shacklebreaker ( don't be confused into thinking i think they should be buffed, it's just about making pvp sets even more pvp orietend ).

Add cooldown to specific skills like damage shields. This way they won't affect too much PVE but they will balance PVP. Example: hardened ward, lasts for 10seconds, 4seconds cooldown. This way you wont be able to survive 1v3 in BGs by spamming shields and this way it wont have to be nerfed in efficiency by 50%, which is a very crude way to balance things.

As a conclusion, i think zenimax has a very wrong approach regarding balance in this game and i'd like to read more opinions.

you have noticed what a lot of us have after tam 1 was introduced. ZOS married this horizontal progression system in stead of a vertical system a long time ago . the CP system really was just VR increase passives unlocked, the cp system just seems unfinished and really does nothing to solidify roles or consquentiial decisions in your chrs development.

I dont think ZOS at this point will unmarry their design philosphy Matt is very happy with this hybrid single player RPG design it feels very flat to me. after i bought morrowind and played for a few days i dumped ESO for good its just not a fun MMO. its a medicore RPG online but if you played from launch and have been part of so many guilds that no longer play once you hit the back end of the game .Many are left scratching your head asking whats the point. all of your observations are spot on from my perspective. the game never emerged and matured it puts out content that easy eas bake and all of its unique items are cosmetic based that they sell in a gambling box. GG Zenimax keep milking the churn population

In reply to bolded... and yet here you sit... trolling the forums on a game you say you 'dumped for good'. This tells me that 1) you need to get a life, or 2) you haven't found anything better and so you continue to troll the forums in hopes that ESO suddenly becomes 'everything you've always wanted' even though MILLIONS of players are happy with the current design- in other words, perhaps it's time you actually DO move on 'for good'.

In regards to OP... considering the fact that you 'had an account in beta' but apparently never played much and then come back after numerous changes and wonder what happened. If you had played the game consistently from beta, you'd have seen the necessity for the changes.

There are numerous threads out there explaining why One Tamriel made the game better for the MAJORITY of players, so I'm not going to repeat. Second, this is an MMO (is this your first MMO OP?), it's not something that a new player should be able to start and expect to be at the top end after just a few weeks... this would not reward longevity and would, instead, reward people coming in... playing to the top and leaving.

You advocate for 'adding more buttons' instead of the swap bar... so please explain how this would work for console players who have limited buttons?

A lot of your argument I expect to see from a new player who has no clue, yet, coming to the forums to advocate for changes simply to make the game more to 'YOUR' liking... seems rather arrogant. Considering that ESO has been rated one of the TOP MMOs in recent years, I'd say they have something going for them with the current design.

Does it have problems, absolutely... but is it the horrible environment that you have stated, NO WAY. I've been playing for almost five years now and I play 10-12 hours three to four days per week... so I know a thing or two about the game and its history. I don't do 'end game' or PvP... so I cannot comment on the state of that content, but as far as questing goes, it's pretty SPOT ON. Too many fetch quests, sure... but it's an MMO and is meant to be drawn out and take time and involve a GRIND.

we ll i dont troll the forums , i have hopes the game will get better i do follow the development of this game as many other MMOS. and the OP is entitled to his opinion . sorry we hurt your feelings because we dont think everything Zenimax has done is a wonderful piece of work for the benefit of the genre . as for the console we called that early in beta when they went for the cash grab on the new generations using PC technology. And for the record no one has violated any forum rules with our opinions , but your coming pretty close to flaming so why dont you move along from the thread your not adding anything constructive but attacking people. we are allowed to discuss what we thing went wrong post development and design change post production.
As for millions of players i beg to differ Zos sold millions of boxes and had 12 million trial accounts created in total yet the hover around maybe 450 to 600 k active player base so no not millions of people disagreed with me quite the opposite actually. But hey all they need is 10 or 20k people spending money in the cash shop each moth to be hugely profitable

Xerikten · August 2018

you forgot the poor design of the player market system.

Easily_Lost · August 2018

If you want more buttons on the bar, you do know that you can put the same weapon on both bars. That way you can put more skills on that weapon.

The one thing I do wish they would add was a toggle to make PVE monsters a little stronger, or make more pack ( group ) attacks.

One more thing, if you think that PVE is too easy. Do not use CP at all. Also use armour that is one step below ( i.e. if you use Heavy Armour us Medium, etc.), or do not use armour at all.

Just my two cents worth.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2018

1

DanteYoda · August 2018

They should have stopped CP gain at 160.

And i agree bar flipping is a nightmare, even worse in high ping situations.

Sylvermynx · August 2018

DanteYoda wrote: »

They should have stopped CP gain at 160.

And i agree bar flipping is a nightmare, even worse in high ping situations.

I don't have CP so I don't know about that. But yeah - bar flipping is really problematic for me. I guess I'm going to try binding it to my middle mouse button, see if that helps....

Drdeath20 · August 2018

Valrien wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

noob in denial wrote: »

After playing this game alot in the past 6 months i've come to realise that some design decision i consider to be extremely bad, because they imbalance the game and they are not fun. Examples:

1. First i noticed was level/character scaling. It was really cool, basically you could jump straight into action, world bosses fights, dungeons with any level players, without having that feel of being too much behind or simply thinking you'd be left behind if you didn't play. At this point this WAS a good design decision.
Problem is, after a few weeks / months, as i started having a deeper understanding of the game, my opinion slowly changed and eventually made me look at it and think of it as a very bad design decision.

I'll explain my reasoning; while i was leveling, doing more than half and eventually doing almost everything in vvanderfel, although i was getting "stronger" it didn't feel like it and i had no sense of progression. I told to myself; time to change the zone (i was still leveling at this point). Well i noticed no difference when i did change, so i thought maybe i just was unlucky and hit another starting zone, but then it hit me; it was because of the scaling. While leveling it just feels like you're doing ONLY level 1-20 type of quests. Very simple dumbed down stuff/quests that are supposed to introduce you to the game. Not very enjoyable.

2. Probably as an effect of scaling, ALL items give the EXACT amount of stats, the only real difference between them is the 5/5 set option. This is dumbing down at extremes. And there's not much sense of progression either. 99% don't care about the DLC dungeons since, because of how item design/scaling works, the most important part of them ( items ) aren't needed at all. That's why 99% don't care about doing/learning their mechanics since their sole purpose is to provide a skin for very high CP players . Yes can be done at lower cp too, but generally its much easier at high cp.

3. About CP. This brings nothing good. First thing i realised is that one player, depending on how much he plays, needs between 6 months and 2/3 years to get to max CP. It matters because from 160 to 750cp your dmg, sustain and survivability, each goes up easily by ~20-25% ( approximated, haven't done the math ). And that difference allows you to do harder content you wouldn't do otherwise, like vMA or some hardmodes/veterans. Therefore quantity ( time played) and quality ( skills) ratio is too much in favor of quantity.

I assume both zenimax and the community realised something is wrong with this because, as i've heard, CP is disabled in BGs ( not sure if it's disabled in PvP zones like cyrodiil ). But then CP system has PVP passives and its disabled in bgs, see the irony ? It all comes down to scaling and CP system doing more harm than good.

4. Swap bar. Eventually in any game meta sets in and generally one way to do things is, on average, slightly better than others. But the thing is, the way game works, everyone plays the same; eg if you're stam dk you go with dual wield and bow on backbar. No flexibility. Therefore bow feels more like a filler weapon for backbar rather than a main pve weapon.

5. PVP and PVE. By being able to effectively use almost everything for both PVP and PVE, it seems to me that it became a nightmare trying to balance things. For example having no cooldown works for PVE but it doesn't work for pvp. That's why shields and damage are nerfed in PVP. Also there should be a much bigger gap between PVP and PVE oriented sets.

With the right approach there wouldn't be a need to cut the leg entirely trying to treat the disease effect but one could treat the cause instead. Solutions:

1. I'm not sure about this, but it needs some sense of progression. Maybe give each class's starting location scaling and a second more challenging zone to level up where scaling doesn't exist / is limited with more interesting quests.

2. Currently there are 32 dungeons. Same like for point 1, give us a sense of progression. Why do all items give the same amount of stamina/ magicka / hp / spell/weapon damage and so on ? The difference doesn't have to be big to make a very tangible difference or giving the most casual players a hard time, it's about not having a dumbed down system where everything is the same in the name of Balance the god but where everything that sets things appart and make them unique is taken away and everything is a clone of something else. If you have to make everything the same to balance it, it means you have no ideea what you're doing and you're doing it wrong. I mean, going from a magicka sorcerer with power surge to stamina dk, the 20% dmg buff and it's effects are almost the same. For those who don't don't understand why this is bad, imagine a shooter where every weapon is almost the same in stats, just looks bit different. It's plain stupid.

3. Remove CP as it is and replace it with a talent systems for level 50 players. Again, it doesn't have to be replaced with a very dumbed down systems like the examples above, but made in a way that it has more than one option to chose from based on playstyle for both pvp and pve. Example: sorcerer: stamina pvp/pve build, pet stamina pvp/pve build, magicka aoe/solo target pvp build.

This would remove the huge downsides curent CP system has, like the artificial gap between players and the very long time needed to level up.

5. Swapbar . Maybe remove it entirely and add more slots, starting with 1 or 2 ?. This way we'll have more unique builds/weapon usage than we currently have. Bow should be it's own thing in pve, not just backbar only option for aoe/dots.
One could argue that bow is needed for ranged fights but then there are skills that don't require a bow ( and more could be added ).

7. PVP and PVE. Widen the gap between PVP and PVE item stats. PVP oriented sets should be much stronger than PVE sets, in PVP. Maybe add EACH pvp set, like shacklebreaker, a pvp stat like 5% dmg reduction/boost against players. Some sets do have these options, but some obvious pvp sets like sloads and shacklebreaker ( don't be confused into thinking i think they should be buffed, it's just about making pvp sets even more pvp orietend ).

Add cooldown to specific skills like damage shields. This way they won't affect too much PVE but they will balance PVP. Example: hardened ward, lasts for 10seconds, 4seconds cooldown. This way you wont be able to survive 1v3 in BGs by spamming shields and this way it wont have to be nerfed in efficiency by 50%, which is a very crude way to balance things.

As a conclusion, i think zenimax has a very wrong approach regarding balance in this game and i'd like to read more opinions.

you have noticed what a lot of us have after tam 1 was introduced. ZOS married this horizontal progression system in stead of a vertical system a long time ago . the CP system really was just VR increase passives unlocked, the cp system just seems unfinished and really does nothing to solidify roles or consquentiial decisions in your chrs development.

I dont think ZOS at this point will unmarry their design philosphy Matt is very happy with this hybrid single player RPG design it feels very flat to me. after i bought morrowind and played for a few days i dumped ESO for good its just not a fun MMO. its a medicore RPG online but if you played from launch and have been part of so many guilds that no longer play once you hit the back end of the game .Many are left scratching your head asking whats the point. all of your observations are spot on from my perspective. the game never emerged and matured it puts out content that easy eas bake and all of its unique items are cosmetic based that they sell in a gambling box. GG Zenimax keep milking the churn population

In reply to bolded... and yet here you sit... trolling the forums on a game you say you 'dumped for good'. This tells me that 1) you need to get a life, or 2) you haven't found anything better and so you continue to troll the forums in hopes that ESO suddenly becomes 'everything you've always wanted' even though MILLIONS of players are happy with the current design- in other words, perhaps it's time you actually DO move on 'for good'.

In regards to OP... considering the fact that you 'had an account in beta' but apparently never played much and then come back after numerous changes and wonder what happened. If you had played the game consistently from beta, you'd have seen the necessity for the changes.

There are numerous threads out there explaining why One Tamriel made the game better for the MAJORITY of players, so I'm not going to repeat. Second, this is an MMO (is this your first MMO OP?), it's not something that a new player should be able to start and expect to be at the top end after just a few weeks... this would not reward longevity and would, instead, reward people coming in... playing to the top and leaving.

You advocate for 'adding more buttons' instead of the swap bar... so please explain how this would work for console players who have limited buttons?

A lot of your argument I expect to see from a new player who has no clue, yet, coming to the forums to advocate for changes simply to make the game more to 'YOUR' liking... seems rather arrogant. Considering that ESO has been rated one of the TOP MMOs in recent years, I'd say they have something going for them with the current design.

Does it have problems, absolutely... but is it the horrible environment that you have stated, NO WAY. I've been playing for almost five years now and I play 10-12 hours three to four days per week... so I know a thing or two about the game and its history. I don't do 'end game' or PvP... so I cannot comment on the state of that content, but as far as questing goes, it's pretty SPOT ON. Too many fetch quests, sure... but it's an MMO and is meant to be drawn out and take time and involve a GRIND.

I've been playing since beta and a long time after that. I actually appreciated the game much more as it was back then than it is now.

It's still fun, but it's not AS fun

I agree. A few years ago developers were still trying to make a good game and would make ground level design changes. Now it is what it is. Adjustments here and there, a new zone/character/dungeon but this is what its gonna be. Now its all about the churn

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2018

You do realize that there is a conflict between point 1 and point 3 don't you? I hope you see the irony.

Wifeaggro13 · August 2018

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

noob in denial wrote: »

After playing this game alot in the past 6 months i've come to realise that some design decision i consider to be extremely bad, because they imbalance the game and they are not fun. Examples:

1. First i noticed was level/character scaling. It was really cool, basically you could jump straight into action, world bosses fights, dungeons with any level players, without having that feel of being too much behind or simply thinking you'd be left behind if you didn't play. At this point this WAS a good design decision.
Problem is, after a few weeks / months, as i started having a deeper understanding of the game, my opinion slowly changed and eventually made me look at it and think of it as a very bad design decision.

I'll explain my reasoning; while i was leveling, doing more than half and eventually doing almost everything in vvanderfel, although i was getting "stronger" it didn't feel like it and i had no sense of progression. I told to myself; time to change the zone (i was still leveling at this point). Well i noticed no difference when i did change, so i thought maybe i just was unlucky and hit another starting zone, but then it hit me; it was because of the scaling. While leveling it just feels like you're doing ONLY level 1-20 type of quests. Very simple dumbed down stuff/quests that are supposed to introduce you to the game. Not very enjoyable.

2. Probably as an effect of scaling, ALL items give the EXACT amount of stats, the only real difference between them is the 5/5 set option. This is dumbing down at extremes. And there's not much sense of progression either. 99% don't care about the DLC dungeons since, because of how item design/scaling works, the most important part of them ( items ) aren't needed at all. That's why 99% don't care about doing/learning their mechanics since their sole purpose is to provide a skin for very high CP players . Yes can be done at lower cp too, but generally its much easier at high cp.

3. About CP. This brings nothing good. First thing i realised is that one player, depending on how much he plays, needs between 6 months and 2/3 years to get to max CP. It matters because from 160 to 750cp your dmg, sustain and survivability, each goes up easily by ~20-25% ( approximated, haven't done the math ). And that difference allows you to do harder content you wouldn't do otherwise, like vMA or some hardmodes/veterans. Therefore quantity ( time played) and quality ( skills) ratio is too much in favor of quantity.

I assume both zenimax and the community realised something is wrong with this because, as i've heard, CP is disabled in BGs ( not sure if it's disabled in PvP zones like cyrodiil ). But then CP system has PVP passives and its disabled in bgs, see the irony ? It all comes down to scaling and CP system doing more harm than good.

4. Swap bar. Eventually in any game meta sets in and generally one way to do things is, on average, slightly better than others. But the thing is, the way game works, everyone plays the same; eg if you're stam dk you go with dual wield and bow on backbar. No flexibility. Therefore bow feels more like a filler weapon for backbar rather than a main pve weapon.

5. PVP and PVE. By being able to effectively use almost everything for both PVP and PVE, it seems to me that it became a nightmare trying to balance things. For example having no cooldown works for PVE but it doesn't work for pvp. That's why shields and damage are nerfed in PVP. Also there should be a much bigger gap between PVP and PVE oriented sets.

With the right approach there wouldn't be a need to cut the leg entirely trying to treat the disease effect but one could treat the cause instead. Solutions:

1. I'm not sure about this, but it needs some sense of progression. Maybe give each class's starting location scaling and a second more challenging zone to level up where scaling doesn't exist / is limited with more interesting quests.

2. Currently there are 32 dungeons. Same like for point 1, give us a sense of progression. Why do all items give the same amount of stamina/ magicka / hp / spell/weapon damage and so on ? The difference doesn't have to be big to make a very tangible difference or giving the most casual players a hard time, it's about not having a dumbed down system where everything is the same in the name of Balance the god but where everything that sets things appart and make them unique is taken away and everything is a clone of something else. If you have to make everything the same to balance it, it means you have no ideea what you're doing and you're doing it wrong. I mean, going from a magicka sorcerer with power surge to stamina dk, the 20% dmg buff and it's effects are almost the same. For those who don't don't understand why this is bad, imagine a shooter where every weapon is almost the same in stats, just looks bit different. It's plain stupid.

3. Remove CP as it is and replace it with a talent systems for level 50 players. Again, it doesn't have to be replaced with a very dumbed down systems like the examples above, but made in a way that it has more than one option to chose from based on playstyle for both pvp and pve. Example: sorcerer: stamina pvp/pve build, pet stamina pvp/pve build, magicka aoe/solo target pvp build.

This would remove the huge downsides curent CP system has, like the artificial gap between players and the very long time needed to level up.

5. Swapbar . Maybe remove it entirely and add more slots, starting with 1 or 2 ?. This way we'll have more unique builds/weapon usage than we currently have. Bow should be it's own thing in pve, not just backbar only option for aoe/dots.
One could argue that bow is needed for ranged fights but then there are skills that don't require a bow ( and more could be added ).

7. PVP and PVE. Widen the gap between PVP and PVE item stats. PVP oriented sets should be much stronger than PVE sets, in PVP. Maybe add EACH pvp set, like shacklebreaker, a pvp stat like 5% dmg reduction/boost against players. Some sets do have these options, but some obvious pvp sets like sloads and shacklebreaker ( don't be confused into thinking i think they should be buffed, it's just about making pvp sets even more pvp orietend ).

Add cooldown to specific skills like damage shields. This way they won't affect too much PVE but they will balance PVP. Example: hardened ward, lasts for 10seconds, 4seconds cooldown. This way you wont be able to survive 1v3 in BGs by spamming shields and this way it wont have to be nerfed in efficiency by 50%, which is a very crude way to balance things.

As a conclusion, i think zenimax has a very wrong approach regarding balance in this game and i'd like to read more opinions.

you have noticed what a lot of us have after tam 1 was introduced. ZOS married this horizontal progression system in stead of a vertical system a long time ago . the CP system really was just VR increase passives unlocked, the cp system just seems unfinished and really does nothing to solidify roles or consquentiial decisions in your chrs development.

I dont think ZOS at this point will unmarry their design philosphy Matt is very happy with this hybrid single player RPG design it feels very flat to me. after i bought morrowind and played for a few days i dumped ESO for good its just not a fun MMO. its a medicore RPG online but if you played from launch and have been part of so many guilds that no longer play once you hit the back end of the game .Many are left scratching your head asking whats the point. all of your observations are spot on from my perspective. the game never emerged and matured it puts out content that easy eas bake and all of its unique items are cosmetic based that they sell in a gambling box. GG Zenimax keep milking the churn population

In reply to bolded... and yet here you sit... trolling the forums on a game you say you 'dumped for good'. This tells me that 1) you need to get a life, or 2) you haven't found anything better and so you continue to troll the forums in hopes that ESO suddenly becomes 'everything you've always wanted' even though MILLIONS of players are happy with the current design- in other words, perhaps it's time you actually DO move on 'for good'.

In regards to OP... considering the fact that you 'had an account in beta' but apparently never played much and then come back after numerous changes and wonder what happened. If you had played the game consistently from beta, you'd have seen the necessity for the changes.

There are numerous threads out there explaining why One Tamriel made the game better for the MAJORITY of players, so I'm not going to repeat. Second, this is an MMO (is this your first MMO OP?), it's not something that a new player should be able to start and expect to be at the top end after just a few weeks... this would not reward longevity and would, instead, reward people coming in... playing to the top and leaving.

You advocate for 'adding more buttons' instead of the swap bar... so please explain how this would work for console players who have limited buttons?

A lot of your argument I expect to see from a new player who has no clue, yet, coming to the forums to advocate for changes simply to make the game more to 'YOUR' liking... seems rather arrogant. Considering that ESO has been rated one of the TOP MMOs in recent years, I'd say they have something going for them with the current design.

Does it have problems, absolutely... but is it the horrible environment that you have stated, NO WAY. I've been playing for almost five years now and I play 10-12 hours three to four days per week... so I know a thing or two about the game and its history. I don't do 'end game' or PvP... so I cannot comment on the state of that content, but as far as questing goes, it's pretty SPOT ON. Too many fetch quests, sure... but it's an MMO and is meant to be drawn out and take time and involve a GRIND.

I've been playing since beta and a long time after that. I actually appreciated the game much more as it was back then than it is now.

It's still fun, but it's not AS fun

I agree. A few years ago developers were still trying to make a good game and would make ground level design changes. Now it is what it is. Adjustments here and there, a new zone/character/dungeon but this is what its gonna be. Now its all about the churn

corporate MMO's. such a great IP ESO isnt horrible its just a very flat MMO that never evolved or emerged. every chapter is just more leveling content with out any lvls or progression with new sets that promote a new meta for dps. churn churn churn. burn them out and a new batch of visitors will come.

noob in denial · August 2018

Also, was browsing the forums and i found about this type of macro https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=141&v=BpZa4c-WZoE

This can only be prevented by simply removing the swap bars entirely, as i suggested in first post. They're giving a huge unfair advantage ( especially in pvp ) and the only counterplay is to use them yourself.

DanteYoda · August 2018

Sylvermynx wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

They should have stopped CP gain at 160.

And i agree bar flipping is a nightmare, even worse in high ping situations.

I don't have CP so I don't know about that. But yeah - bar flipping is really problematic for me. I guess I'm going to try binding it to my middle mouse button, see if that helps....

I use scroll up and down.. it helps but in high ping its still a nightmare trying to get skills to go off after i flip my bar. Also my skills seem to get more and more non responsive the longer i'm online..