Possible solution to fake tanks.

MashmalloMan · August 2018

The only issue of fake tanks is apparent in non vet dungeons and it isn't even an issue because it's so easy. In vet dungeons there is more responsibility placed on DD's to perform, as a competent DD with crit surge slotted 100% of the time, I always get complimented on how fast the clear was or how easy it was because DD's that don't do enough DPS and don't focus on the proper targets, die too much, or don't res others will completely destroy a run. A tank that just needs to taunt and know when to interrupt or block is easy enough. The vet dungeons (besides a good deal of the DLC ones) can be blown through without the tank doing much besides pressing 1 button to keep the taunt up and keeping the monster in 1 spot so all the AoE's hit the target.

This isn't to discredit tanks, we need them. I'm just saying, never rely on a healer or tank to survive. I only come across fake tanks in normal (EASY, can solo the content) and I've done it before myself. We cleared a dungeon in 5min once and their was no bs, waiting around, no deaths and I still had some of the lower dps just straight out complain because my HP was low. I'm sorry, do you want me to trade 35k dps for 30k hp, so I can stay alive the same but put out next to no DPS. Slot a taunt and people shouldn't care.

There will always be bad players. Try to work together or help people up by carrying some of the weight, give advice. Don't expect ZOS to fix this because they can't. I'm sorry I'm not waiting 30 minutes for a normal dungeon as a DD when you don't need a "REAL" tank in the first place. The issue is the queue, people wouldn't fake it if they could get in reliably.

elijafire · August 2018

Srsly someone tell me what a "fake tank" is this sounds fishy.

Jayman1000 · August 2018

Guppet wrote: »

What you could do is have it so any taunt gives the player who queued as tank aggro. Any taunt from anyone. So the other dps and healer could taunt and force aggro on the tank.

That way if they agree to no tank they don’t need to do it, but if they don’t appreciate the fake tank, they can force him to tank.

Or they could add a new undaunted skill. One that sends aggro to the designated tank (who ever chose the role). Call it “it was him!”

This could even help new tanks.

Could this work?

I dont see how this would solve the issue of fake tanks. Forcing aggro on a tank that is not an actual tank... what would that accomplish? How would that solve the problem of fake tanks?

Jayman1000 · August 2018

Face it, the issue is not solvable without totally compromising the flexibility that is core to the classes and builds of ESO. Some other MMO's like to force specific roles so that there is no flexibility. That would really be the only way we could solve this issue, but at the cost of sacrificing flexibility to switch roles would be disastrous to eso.

VaranisArano · August 2018

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

What you could do is have it so any taunt gives the player who queued as tank aggro. Any taunt from anyone. So the other dps and healer could taunt and force aggro on the tank.

That way if they agree to no tank they don’t need to do it, but if they don’t appreciate the fake tank, they can force him to tank.

Or they could add a new undaunted skill. One that sends aggro to the designated tank (who ever chose the role). Call it “it was him!”

This could even help new tanks.

Could this work?

I dont see how this would solve the issue of fake tanks. Forcing aggro on a tank that is not an actual tank... what would that accomplish? How would that solve the problem of fake tanks?

It would solve the problem of the fake tank refusing to hold boss aggro so that the people who queued as healer and DD have to deal with boss aggro. In short, the fake tank would be forced to actually tank.

Now, I think that's a rather blunt solution likely to cause more problems for actual tanks than it solves, but I can understand the reasoning behind "If you queued as a tank, you darned well are going to tank!"

Artim_X · August 2018

elijafire wrote: »

Srsly someone tell me what a "fake tank" is this sounds fishy.

For the most part it is someone who queues for a dungeon with the tank role selected, but they have no intention of actually playing said role (not even bothering to use a taunt). Usually they are a damage dealer that wants a shorter queue. Depending on the dungeon and the difficulty setting this isn't inherently a bad thing especially if the "fake tank" brings something to the table (the good deeps). However, problems can arise when the player does subpar DPS, which makes their selfishness especially unjustified. In the majority of dungeons even on vet as long as the other players are on point they can make up for the lack of a tank. However, DLC dungeons even on normal tend to require more order especially when certain mobs and bosses have the potential to one-shot low health/resistance players. Inexperienced players benefit the most from a tank that taunts and is able to take a hit. When one queues for a role they should not expect others to not need them to fulfill that role.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2018

remilafo wrote: »

Just adapt, makes you stronger in the end. Depending on a quote "Real tank" just means you lake the flexibility to survive.

No Dungeon requires a quote "real tank" infact

- any normal dungeon and trials can be accomplished with a mishmash of whatever really.
- With the exception of a few bosses, almost all veteran dungeon content can be done without a tank, 1 healer and 3 dps are okay. Also often 1 tank and 3 dps is fine also. Infact 4 dps/solo builds like for Vma for example do veteran content just fine.
- Even some trials can be done without a tank like VDSA

The point is, stop complaining and adapt. Or as the internet says GIT GUD

And here we see the 'git gud' mental disease taken to it's logical extreme. Evolve past the need for tanks.

Yes, get a DPS with minimal survivability to block the holes in the floor that spew poison in scalecaller, this'll werk.

When will people learn you cannot self-improve everything away?

GawdSB · August 2018

Worst part is the people that queue for tank and have no intention on actually tanking don't even do good dps. They're doing trash dps while you have to sit there spamming shields and kiting the boss so you won't die while still trying to put out good dps.

If they actually do decent dps it's not usually a problem though, unless it's a dungeon that needs one like a dlc dungeon.

Guppet · August 2018

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

What you could do is have it so any taunt gives the player who queued as tank aggro. Any taunt from anyone. So the other dps and healer could taunt and force aggro on the tank.

That way if they agree to no tank they don’t need to do it, but if they don’t appreciate the fake tank, they can force him to tank.

Or they could add a new undaunted skill. One that sends aggro to the designated tank (who ever chose the role). Call it “it was him!”

This could even help new tanks.

Could this work?

I dont see how this would solve the issue of fake tanks. Forcing aggro on a tank that is not an actual tank... what would that accomplish? How would that solve the problem of fake tanks?

It gives the rest of the group a tank if the fake likes it or not. So it’s better for the rest of the group.

It also does important things to the tank. Firstly if they are queuing with the intention to just dps and skip the queue, then they don’t get an easy ride. They get battered around by bosses and they have to focus on survival.

They will then either start to learn how to do that and start to actually tank, which is better for everyone, or they will stop using Tank role for quick easy queues.

It’s tough love, but seems more workable to me than requiring certain skills or stats to queue. Certain skills and stats can’t work in a game as flexible as this.

Epona222 · August 2018

I think it doesn't matter for most base game normals - I'm not even that great at the game and I've soloed a few of them, duoed some more, and run most of the normal dungeons with friends where various of us were fake-slotted in roles and were actually 4x dpsing the dungeon.

I have a dps/backbar-heals-in-an-emergency character who I would happily slot as heals for normals and be able to heal them if everyone else was marginally competent - that doesn't make me some sort of fiend.

Vet dungeons are a different matter.

starkerealm · August 2018

mikemacon wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Normal mobs do like no damage though. You actually do not need a tank for most normal dungeons, no matter what the group "agrees with"

I wouldn't do it, but I hardly give a crap about the people that do

Incorrect.

Most normal dungeons don't "need" a tank...according to you.

If you have lower level DPS, even in normal content, real tanks are a godsend.

Also, even with super-uber-awesome deeps, if the boss is constantly being pulled out of AOEs, your DPS might be super duper awesome...but group DPS suffers.

And it just ain't all about you. If it was and all you care about is your numbers - solo the dungeon.

But if you PUG with a DPS queuing as a fake tank, I will vote to kick you. Full stop.

To be fair, I have been known to queue as a tank in medium armor without a board. But only if I have inner fire and am 100% certain I can do the job. Actually, I've got an Imperial stam warden that can do the job surprisingly well on normal.

Hell, I've since off tanked with her, and she is a fake tank, but she can do the job.

Also where I'm at with stam warden healers. They're fake, but they can do the job, in the right hands.

Guppet · August 2018

The problem with people saying normals don’t need tanks is that it removes where people learn.

Where should a new player learn how to function in a group?

Pretty sure they should not be having thier first experience of how groups function in veteran or dlc dungeons. Because if they don’t do well there they will get kicked.

There is also the fact that most people prefer having a tank present. Even experienced players, if they are pugging. (Less than 2% preffered 3 dps 1 Healer and even less preffered 4 dps).

Your group of 4 best mates that dps together will have far better communication and understanding than 4 random people, so you can’t use what works in a non pug group.

Salvas_Aren · August 2018

So more than 96% of all players prefer a correctly composed party no matter what?

Where do you get your numbers from?

Guppet · August 2018

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

So more than 96% of all players prefer a correctly composed party no matter what?

Where do you get your numbers from?

It’s actually 95% preffered a tank, not preffer traditional 2-1-1. 3 dps and a tank was popular.

Here’s the poll-

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422804/which-vet-dungeon-group-composition-is-preferred/p1

Funny that you don’t see more wanting 4 dps since many suggest that’s best, but those are normslly people who are the fake tanks.

VaranisArano · August 2018

Guppet wrote: »

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

So more than 96% of all players prefer a correctly composed party no matter what?

Where do you get your numbers from?

It’s actually 95% preffered a tank, not preffer traditional 2-1-1. 3 dps and a tank was popular.

Here’s the poll-

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422804/which-vet-dungeon-group-composition-is-preferred/p1

Funny that you don’t see more wanting 4 dps since many suggest that’s best, but those are normslly people who are the fake tanks.

I'm not too surprised that you don't see more wanting 4 DDs. Most DPS comes from ground-based AOEs, so its surprisingly handy to have a tank who can hold the boss more or less still in those ground-based AOEs, as long as the DDs and tank are self-sufficient on healing.

Qbiken · August 2018

Guppet wrote: »

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

So more than 96% of all players prefer a correctly composed party no matter what?

Where do you get your numbers from?

It’s actually 95% preffered a tank, not preffer traditional 2-1-1. 3 dps and a tank was popular.

Here’s the poll-

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422804/which-vet-dungeon-group-composition-is-preferred/p1

Funny that you don’t see more wanting 4 dps since many suggest that’s best, but those are normslly people who are the fake tanks.

If that poll would´ve had a few thousand people voting I would´ve taken a look at it with some serious eyes...but 155 voters? lol

Guppet · August 2018

Qbiken wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

So more than 96% of all players prefer a correctly composed party no matter what?

Where do you get your numbers from?

It’s actually 95% preffered a tank, not preffer traditional 2-1-1. 3 dps and a tank was popular.

Here’s the poll-

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422804/which-vet-dungeon-group-composition-is-preferred/p1

Funny that you don’t see more wanting 4 dps since many suggest that’s best, but those are normslly people who are the fake tanks.

If that poll would´ve had a few thousand people voting I would´ve taken a look at it with some serious eyes...but 155 voters? lol

The poll only has the numbers that voted obviously. The forums only have a small percentage of the players, but they tend to be the most invested and experienced.

So for me the figures are useful. It’s not like what they say is not very very clear. Maybe you just don’t like the outcome. Your dreaming if you think having 10 times the number would massively shift opinion.

The numbers may increase now due to this anyway.

Mojmir · August 2018

Best solution-become a tank

SakuraRush · August 2018

My "solution" to this is I've decided to essentially become a full time tank. This means learning a bunch of content from the tank role but it's a welcome challenge.

However this has also increased the number of fake DPS I encounter. Almost always a PVP spec that struggles with trash mobs and ends up kiting things all over the place.

I haven't worked up to content where my own healing isn't enough to notice a fake or poor healer.

Those saying normal content doesn't need a tank are ignoring that at times is really does. Spindle II on 4 characters under 50 with a "tank" that has 10k health isn't going to succeed for example. (An example that was a big factor in my decision to start going tank.)

A vote kick doesn't work as these players are often queueing in pairs.

Only selecting one role won't work as fake tanks will still just pick tank. It means it'll just take a little longer before you know you're in for a cluster fudge.

Positive reinforcement tools won't work because players of all games are petty *** that cry "report them" in response to being killed in PvP or for wearing the wrong color hat.

The best we could hope for is an avoid player button. You would no longer be grouped with avoided players. Avoided players would no longer be able to join your groups.

An actual in game mute function on console would also be welcome but that's another topic altogether that will never be properly addressed.

Epona222 · August 2018

Guppet wrote: »

The problem with people saying normals don’t need tanks is that it removes where people learn.

Where should a new player learn how to function in a group?

Pretty sure they should not be having thier first experience of how groups function in veteran or dlc dungeons. Because if they don’t do well there they will get kicked.

There is also the fact that most people prefer having a tank present. Even experienced players, if they are pugging. (Less than 2% preffered 3 dps 1 Healer and even less preffered 4 dps).

Your group of 4 best mates that dps together will have far better communication and understanding than 4 random people, so you can’t use what works in a non pug group.

I completely agree with that, but we're talking about randoms - the nature of randoms is that you get put with goodness knows who, and some folks aren't even marginally polite, which isn't a great learning environment. No-one feels encouraged or has much of a chance to improve after being told that they are a piece of you know what and doing it wrong.

Best way to learn skill is to join a guild or make friends with a few people and run dungeons with them, it is the same as with anything, practice makes perfect - if you want to tank, then find a group with a lowbie that is going to be doing a lowbie dungeon like Spindleclutch and try that first, and keep running dungeons of different types with people who will give you tips and suggestions until you feel confident.

Azuramoonstar · August 2018

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Face it, the issue is not solvable without totally compromising the flexibility that is core to the classes and builds of ESO. Some other MMO's like to force specific roles so that there is no flexibility. That would really be the only way we could solve this issue, but at the cost of sacrificing flexibility to switch roles would be disastrous to eso.

ff14 has forced roles, you still find "fake" tanks and healers. As tank lost count to how many times a healer just dps more then cured and I died from it. Or the amount of times when i players healer/dps that the tank just refused to hold hate/enmity/aggro.

Only solution is to kick the trolls/ fakes. If people don't want to play their role, remove them.

If it gets to the point where you vote kick people often join a social guild, make a guild, or just look for players to group with.
What Zos can do is add a party finder tab, that allows people to set parties for a wide range of content. The party maker sets the role and you have to pick a role before joining. So when people click the tab they can join the group.

It works out well in ff14.