No hope to ever see player-made buildings on Cyrodil map?

Alagras · July 2018

I always wished we could build our own keeps, bridges etc on Cyrodil map, farming ressources, basically turning the game in a giant Age of Empires game where we would replace the soldiers. Or Guild vs Guild warfare in a new PvP zone. I would love that, it's in my mind since I first heard about MMOs.

I read that more and more games go this way, Fornite of course (wich I never played) but more comparably Ashes of Creations, Crowfall and certainly others I've not heard about.

I know nothing about coding, game engines and such. From what I hear ESO engine cannot support this, it never will.

Is it true?

P.S: sorry if it's been discussed a hell lot before.

amir412 · July 2018

That will be an overkill for the server's hamster.

Alagras · July 2018

So... it would be a question of server more than code/engine? I mean how comes smaller budget games like Life is Feudal seem to handle it?

I wonder if the future of open-world PvP isn't in such players-shaped maps, seeing how Fortnite has hit PUBG hard... Those are Battle Royale of course but gameplay possibilities it opens for an MMO are endless.

IZZEFlameLash · July 2018

Alagras wrote: »

So... it would be a question of server more than code/engine? I mean how comes smaller budget games like Life is Feudal seem to handle it?

I wonder if the future of open-world PvP isn't in such players-shaped maps, seeing how Fortnite has hit PUBG hard... Those are Battle Royale of course but gameplay possibilities it opens for an MMO are endless.

This game isn't Life is Feudal. The engines are optimized differently for different purposes. This game also isn't Battle Royale: The Elder Scrolls. Also, not every other game's successful element will be great for another game.

NBrookus · August 2018

Alagras wrote: »

So... it would be a question of server more than code/engine? I mean how comes smaller budget games like Life is Feudal seem to handle it?

I wonder if the future of open-world PvP isn't in such players-shaped maps, seeing how Fortnite has hit PUBG hard... Those are Battle Royale of course but gameplay possibilities it opens for an MMO are endless.

LiF's performance is terrible. Large battles are instanced and don't include player structures. Graphics, animations and abilities are a fraction of what ESO has and ESO can't handle what it has now.

If you want to pvp and defend your own stuff, any of the pvp survival games (Ark, etc) or soon Camelot Unchained, are built specifically for this.

Thunderknuckles · August 2018

Yeah, Alagras, unfortunately the engine can barely handle large scale battles as it is. Adding a feature like that might cause it to totally spark up and burn flat out into a smoking heap.

Enkil · August 2018

Some of us were begging the Devs to go in that direction from the start as the Elder Scrolls lore/universe readily lends itself to an open world, guild vs. guild, sandbox type design with player built cities rather than the alliance war contrivance they created. Many of them came from Dark Age of Camelot with its realm vs. realm system and WoW was dominating at the time, so this is the game we got. Hopefully one day someone will make a proper Elder Scrolls sandbox mmo.

zyk · August 2018

Implementations like Rust or Fortnite would be impossible because the world geometry would have to be reduced to account for potential player construction, so that would be a massive undertaking.

But there's no reason the game couldn't do this to a limited degree by using the objective upgrade/destruction functions already in the game. There could be, for example, preset locations without constructed objectives that players could build up with repair kits and that could also be destroyed completely. Something like this could be used to attract players to unused portions of the map.

Alagras · August 2018

Thank you folks for answers.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

This game isn't Life is Feudal. The engines are optimized differently for different purposes.

I get that, but what really are ESO' s possibilities in this regard is what I try to know.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

This game also isn't Battle Royale: The Elder Scrolls

I'm not asking for that at all...

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Also, not every other game's successful element will be great for another game.

Agreed. Not every other game's successful elements would fit, but some could.

I mean wouldn't you like to see ESO AvAvA gameplay renewed a bit, or diversified, after all those years of Cyro/IC?

NBrookus wrote: »

LiF's performance is terrible. Large battles are instanced and don't include player structures.

Don't include player structures? Wow, that reeealy sucks.

NBrookus wrote: »

If you want to pvp and defend your own stuff, any of the pvp survival games (Ark, etc) or soon Camelot Unchained, are built specifically for this.

Yeah I got an eye on CU's development, also Crowfall and Ashes of Creation. But I like ESO and ES universe 10 times better so... I'm trying to know what s expectable and what's straight impossible.

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

Yeah, Alagras, unfortunately the engine can barely handle large scale battles as it is. Adding a feature like that might cause it to totally spark up and burn flat out into a smoking heap.

...this could just be the way.

But yeah, I get it... arfff... I keep hopes for smaller scale stuff then.

Enkil wrote: »

Some of us were begging the Devs to go in that direction from the start (...)

But was it even feasible by then? I can think of EVE Online but it's "cheating" with hidden instances that only spatial universe allows...

I also heard about Star Wars Galaxy but idk if player structures were involved in battles.

Enkil wrote: »

Hopefully one day someone will make a proper Elder Scrolls sandbox mmo.

Yes! But I m 40 already and my lifetime expectation is only 80-ish so...

But we share same dream here, and "ESO 2" will certainly realise it. Also the Android game ZoS is developping (ES Blades or something) involves a lot of construction it seems. Not the game we're looking for, but proof they aren't blind to the possibilities it offers (including commercial possibilities, people love to build).

zyk wrote: »

Implementations like Rust or Fortnite would be impossible because the world geometry would have to be reduced to account for potential player construction, so that would be a massive undertaking.

But there's no reason the game couldn't do this to a limited degree by using the objective upgrade/destruction functions already in the game. There could be, for example, preset locations without constructed objectives that players could build up with repair kits and that could also be destroyed completely. Something like this could be used to attract players to unused portions of the map.

That's pretty much what I was hoping to hear, so be thanked! My hopes for better mostly vanished when housing came out, and we were given doll houses when I dreamed of being an architect.

And it could already open great gameplay possibilities, maybe on a new smaller map.

Alagras · August 2018

Rahhh I messed with quotes sry gonna try to fix.

Edit: fixed

Ghostbane · August 2018

We are still trying to get doors fixed, never mind being able to build a conservatory on Sejanus.

gabriebe · August 2018

I really don't want wood panels flying everywhere like Fortnite.

That being said, the keeps in Cyrodiil could be a lot more creative. They're all copies of each other right now. It would be a lot more fun if they were closer to the forts you would see in Skyrim, where you'd have fights in the corridors. Right now one has to wonder how the hell the forts we have would host an actual army. It's just 3 doors with flags.

Alagras · August 2018

Ghostbane wrote: »

We are still trying to get doors fixed, never mind being able to build a conservatory on Sejanus.

Right. No doors. But rez camps kind of work, that can be enough for a new gameplay.

What follows is nowhere near fleshed out, just a track:

-Middle-scale map on an island (much smaller than Cyrodil). Map is shuffled each time like in, say, Age of Empire.

-25 vs 25 vs 25 players or so. No lagg trains, we go easy on server.

-1 hour max for each "campaign".

-Each of 3 factions starts from a harbour with a base guarded by strong NPCs. Objective could be a... powahful relic of old, yes yes (to be just as unimaginative as a true tired ESO dev).
Relic can't be accessed right away, we have to farm the map first.

-We don't bother farming the map ourselves, NPC peons do. They do so in pre-made, ploppable harvesting buildings that we place just like we do rez camps, on the best ressources nodes we find (whatever they exactly are). Some defensive towers, maybe walls if possible. Ok, ok, not possible. No walls. Just towers. Ploppable, pre-made.

-The closer to your harbour you build, the more NPC guards you get to defend your stuff. But of course the best nodes are in the center, so struggle for the middle is what generates the fights. However some great nodes can be found away from middle, to reward scouting.

-What do NPCs farm for? Combat buffs maybe, but mostly to "unlock the way to the relic" wichever form it takes.
Also relic/treasure/whatever emplacement could be unknown at first, and we collect hints or map pieces to find out, try to steal or spy on the hints other factions found.

-We would spend most time scouting for best nodes, disrupting enemy farming, protecting ours. Maybe give incentive to sneak into other bases, to steal ressources or a strategic map with all buildings displayed, or info on treasure location.

-A final phase during wich we maybe digg a tunnel to the treasure, defending its entrance while the 2 other factions gang up on us. Or the thingy would have to be brought back to harbour like Cyro scrolls, and we could lose everything til the end. Or both, but a nice stressing final phase of some sort.

I think smtg along those lines could lead to fun, dynamic chaos with good middle-scale fights.

If you read that far, have my thanks, and:

-do you think the above is technically doable?

-would you like it?

-do you have ideas involving ploppable buildings that could renew ESO AvAvA gameplay?

Alagras · August 2018

gabriebe wrote: »

the keeps in Cyrodiil could be a lot more creative.

True, but unless you mean letting players design them (wich seems impossible according to general opinion) it's a slightly different topic.

An interesting one though, and I thought about that too. Maybe I m going to open another thread about that.

Edit: thread opened, in same sub-forum

Potenza · August 2018

On a completely different server dedicated to that only - maybe.

NBrookus · August 2018

Alagras wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

LiF's performance is terrible. Large battles are instanced and don't include player structures.

Don't include player structures? Wow, that reeealy sucks.

You can attack player structures on their claims during specific times ("Judgement Hours") outside of instanced battles, but the servers (49 on each map) can really only handle about 40-50 players each before performance grinds to a halt. So they have a system for scheduling 100v100 and 50v50 fights where you get ported to an instance with a small map portion of the original dev created terrain pre player terraforming and building; last side with survivors wins.

While interesting in concept, it's disappointing to build a defensive fortification and then not get to actually defend it against your enemy's army.

I think a more likely scenario for ESO would be to let guilds schedule 8x8s, 12v12s etc. in a private instance, using spots on the Cyrodiil map or even PVE zones that you normally don't get to fight much in.

Enkil · August 2018

Alagras wrote: »

Thank you folks for answers.

Enkil wrote: »

Some of us were begging the Devs to go in that direction from the start (...)

But was it even feasible by then? I can think of EVE Online but it's "cheating" with hidden instances that only spatial universe allows...

I also heard about Star Wars Galaxy but idk if player structures were involved in battles.

Google Shadowbane. Almost every spot on the map was built, upgraded, sieged, defended and razed by players.

Ghostbane · August 2018

Alagras wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

We are still trying to get doors fixed, never mind being able to build a conservatory on Sejanus.

Right. No doors. But rez camps kind of work, that can be enough for a new gameplay.

What follows is nowhere near fleshed out, just a track:

-Middle-scale map on an island (much smaller than Cyrodil). Map is shuffled each time like in, say, Age of Empire.

-25 vs 25 vs 25 players or so. No lagg trains, we go easy on server.

-1 hour max for each "campaign".

-Each of 3 factions starts from a harbour with a base guarded by strong NPCs. Objective could be a... powahful relic of old, yes yes (to be just as unimaginative as a true tired ESO dev).
Relic can't be accessed right away, we have to farm the map first.

-We don't bother farming the map ourselves, NPC peons do. They do so in pre-made, ploppable harvesting buildings that we place just like we do rez camps, on the best ressources nodes we find (whatever they exactly are). Some defensive towers, maybe walls if possible. Ok, ok, not possible. No walls. Just towers. Ploppable, pre-made.

-The closer to your harbour you build, the more NPC guards you get to defend your stuff. But of course the best nodes are in the center, so struggle for the middle is what generates the fights. However some great nodes can be found away from middle, to reward scouting.

-What do NPCs farm for? Combat buffs maybe, but mostly to "unlock the way to the relic" wichever form it takes.
Also relic/treasure/whatever emplacement could be unknown at first, and we collect hints or map pieces to find out, try to steal or spy on the hints other factions found.

-We would spend most time scouting for best nodes, disrupting enemy farming, protecting ours. Maybe give incentive to sneak into other bases, to steal ressources or a strategic map with all buildings displayed, or info on treasure location.

-A final phase during wich we maybe digg a tunnel to the treasure, defending its entrance while the 2 other factions gang up on us. Or the thingy would have to be brought back to harbour like Cyro scrolls, and we could lose everything til the end. Or both, but a nice stressing final phase of some sort.

I think smtg along those lines could lead to fun, dynamic chaos with good middle-scale fights.

If you read that far, have my thanks, and:

-do you think the above is technically doable?

-would you like it?

-do you have ideas involving ploppable buildings that could renew ESO AvAvA gameplay?

Deffo not possible in this game, but I would deffo play that.

DeadlyRecluse · August 2018

It would be super cool, but I would go ahead and assume there is zero chance of this happening in this game.

I'd like to see more player deployables (the old mage/mercenary contracts, for instance, reworked for 2018 cyrodiil would be cool) or player-purchasable keep upgrades.

IcyDeadPeople · August 2018

Would love to see someday an arena / bg category of player housing, where we can design our own battlegrounds maps, add our own traps, NPCs, mechanics for custom matches and tournaments in our homes.

Maybe even the best maps could get added to the game somehow

Alagras · August 2018

Enkil wrote: »

Google Shadowbane. Almost every spot on the map was built, upgraded, sieged, defended and razed by players.

Interesting. And it was mini-budget game from 2003... Pretty much Crowfall's daddy it seems. Found a great vid for those interested:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f1CX1cFH4cs

Crowfall, CU, Ashes will be cool, but out of not being Elder Scrolls and maybe not having as good combat system, they will probably suffer from their low budget. Not that I mind graphics, but I think such an MMO would need PvE/questing and Realm vs Realm PvP and Guild vs Guild PvP to have more than a niche playerbase.
EVE online has all of that and is the most successful long-lasting sandbox. They have it right, with safe PvE and RvR in center and GvG/colonization in outer zones.

As you said ESO 2 will have it too... I tell you all sandbox lovers eat healthy and don t shoot yourselves in the face cause 2030 persistent worlds will rock.

Ghostbane wrote: »

Deffo not possible in this game, but I would deffo play that.

Warms my heart to hear someone would play my big-BG concept, so thanks.

NBrookus wrote: »

I think a more likely scenario for ESO would be to let guilds schedule 8x8s, 12v12s etc. in a private instance, using spots on the Cyrodiil map or even PVE zones that you normally don't get to fight much in.

Maybe it could even just be an extension of duelling system. A group could defy another. And regarding instances:

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

custom matches and tournaments in our homes.

Could be fun already.

And @IcyDeadPeople about shaping our own BGs I'd love that too and hoped for it when housing came out, at least modulable houses à la Skyrim. But noooo no no don't touch anything. We just play decorating doll house.