Zeni, are you aware that you have destroyed the game economy?

MerlinPendragon · July 2018

There is so much faux outrage in this fake news thread that it can no longer be taken seriously.

AlexanderDeLarge · July 2018

People were already doing this in a roundabout way. I don't see the problem. It didn't hurt Warframe. It didn't hurt Guild Wars 2.

Linaleah · July 2018

I'm failing to understand in what world giving MORE people MORE buying power is destroying economy. I'm failing to see in what way getting MORE customers to buy stuff you sell... is destroying economy.

as for bidding on a trader thing, in case it hasn't been answered yet. the only reason to keep an expensive trader in a good location and continue to keep them.. is if you are actualy a large trading guild that will utilize aforementioned trader to its fullest. even trolls eventualy run out of steam.

trading gold for crowns does NOT generate gold. it only shifts it between players.

oh and for those people who apparently do not understand how in game gold generation works. there is ALWAYS NEW GOLD COMING INTO THE GAME. what do you think quest rewards are? vendoring trash from farming public dungeons? fencing stolen goods? THIS is how gold actualy gets generated into the economy. until they remove ability to vendor trash and gold quest rewards/ there will ALWAYS be new gold coming into economy. ALWAYS. unlike real life, there is NO competition for quests, EVERYONE can do quests and get gold that way. containers you loot are instanced so EVERYONE gets to steal from them. as long as you do some damage on the mobs, multiple people can tag the same trash pack and all of you get to loot it for even more gold and trash to vendor

this is literately main reason why we have weekly guild trader bids. because this is the main reason we don't have hyper inflation in this game, becasue trader bids take all that extra gold OUT of the economy.

in fact... trading crowns for gold does the exact OPPOSITE of the "consolidating gold in hands of the few" becasue those "few" with gold are trading away some of their golds for shinies via crowns and this gold is now distributed to MORE people, not FEWER.

josiahva · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

Allowing trading of crowns for gold.

I have heard several people say that is not "P2W", because crown items are only cosmetic.

However, this is neglecting to look at the other side of the transaction.

People who can open their IRL wallets and offer crown items for sale, are now able to afford anything they like - vet trial carries, guild kiosks, any boe gear they want, carries in dungeons with dungeon gear being exchanged for the limitless amount of gold now available to the IRL wealthy in the game - there are now many multi-billionaires in game, simply due to this one thing.

And it is destroying the economy, and destroying trading.

I wonder whether this thread will be allowed to stay up, but I would like to hear any comments.

lol, you people are really trying to stretch the definition of pay-to-win. Really? Trial carries? Dungeon carries? Why in the world would anyone even do that? What good are those sets against 99% of the game content? People who run a trial for say...Alkosh...use Alkosh to run trials...they dont use Alkosh to run dungeons, do you see my meaning? Trial sets are useful only for trials since they like to give buffs like major slayer or aegis which aren't any use for the rest of the game. Aside from trial-specific sets that dont help out anywhere else, all you have is skins...which are cosmetic. Here is the fact of the matter: Crowns for gold have nothing to do with trial carries. Lets say it didnt exist...then what would happen is that the player who wants a carry would simply pay someone else real money via paypal or bitcoin or whatever for a trial carry. If that 2nd player needed to, he could then use his gold to hire other players for that carry...no crowns needed. Let me explain to you what pay-to-win REALLY means.

-Being able to buy gear you cant get in-game
-Being able to buy stat boosts that you cant get in-game
-Being able to buy anything else that affects combat that you cant get in-game

Trial carries are NOT pay to win, at worst, they are pay-to-accelerate, which is not the same. Its the same as say vMA weapons if they were offered in the crown store...thats not pay-to-win anymore than the crown store vampire skill line. Both are available in game and can be earned in a matter of months at the most. To be clear, I dont support them selling skill lines in the crown store...just like I wouldnt support them selling gear...but neither one is pay-to-win and people need to understand the difference...certainly crowns for gold or crown store gifting isn't pay-to-win. Go play a REAL pay-to-win game, then come back and complain about ESO

exeeter702 · July 2018

[removed quote]
As shady and obviously *** a practice that would be, its still objectively not p2w because the weapons are available in game via in game methods. This is the problem with so many people. They conflate paying to expedite or circumvent a grind with paying to win in the proper definition. There is nothing in the crown store that provides a statistical power advantage that is not otherwise available in game.

Nor does applying personal win conditions, such as mount and pet collecting constitute p2w as these are not win conditions established by the developers for which opposition for players is provided.

Beardimus · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

LumbermillOverlord wrote: »

@Epona222 you know you can buy ingame gold on black market since launch, yes?
so that people can afford anything in game even before crown gift <-> gold system

That was/is against TOS: trading crowns for gold in game since gifting is not against TOS, and Zeni have said it's ok. It's clear they just want more money coming in.

Agreed they will male money from it, but it may stop a first time from buying gold out right from a seller which is a good thing to reduce the boys / market so they all eff off to a other game.

I'm totally against trading crown items for gold BTW. But can see how this argument stacks up.

P2W os a miserable path

Gorilla · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

Allowing trading of crowns for gold.

there are now many multi-billionaires in game, simply due to this one thing.

.

That's quite the claim. 1 billion gold would require selling 5 million crowns @ the current rate of 200 g per crown.

To become a billionaire IG from selling crowns, you'd need to spend about USD 35k...give or take...

Korah_Eaglecry · July 2018

Gorilla wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Allowing trading of crowns for gold.

there are now many multi-billionaires in game, simply due to this one thing.

.

That's quite the claim. 1 billion gold would require selling 5 million crowns @ the current rate of 200 g per crown.

To become a billionaire IG from selling crowns, you'd need to spend about USD 35k...give or take...

Not gonna lie. Thats pretty low for an exchange rate. Anyone trading their crowns for gold is getting ripped off. Even more evidence that the OP is way off the mark.

DanteYoda · July 2018

Have you ever considered it by design to keep the markets low.. So certain customers like the op cannot destroy the game..

Gorilla · July 2018

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Gorilla wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Allowing trading of crowns for gold.

there are now many multi-billionaires in game, simply due to this one thing.

.

That's quite the claim. 1 billion gold would require selling 5 million crowns @ the current rate of 200 g per crown.

To become a billionaire IG from selling crowns, you'd need to spend about USD 35k...give or take...

Not gonna lie. Thats pretty low for an exchange rate. Anyone trading their crowns for gold is getting ripped off. Even more evidence that the OP is way off the mark.

What's market? 200 has bene my rate for guildies...PS4

huschdeguddzje · July 2018

The sky is falling

MehrunesFlagon · July 2018

Let us trade gold for Crown items.Should have been like this from the beginning.

MehrunesFlagon · July 2018

Would love if I could find someone that would weed for gold.Would so be there.

Eldartar · July 2018

'Destroying the economy' I am all for it ....... 200,000+ gold for 1 motif page....... Yes, lets have more of that ........ NOT!!

But, I don't actually see any change in the game economy, if anything I see an increase in prices (more's the pity) so all you greed traders should be happy making more millions.

I'd seriously like to see ZoS CAP prices!!! and before you all start moaning, I am entitled to my opinion, deal with it.

mitchtheelder · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

Allowing trading of crowns for gold.

I have heard several people say that is not "P2W", because crown items are only cosmetic.

However, this is neglecting to look at the other side of the transaction.

People who can open their IRL wallets and offer crown items for sale, are now able to afford anything they like - vet trial carries, guild kiosks, any boe gear they want, carries in dungeons with dungeon gear being exchanged for the limitless amount of gold now available to the IRL wealthy in the game - there are now many multi-billionaires in game, simply due to this one thing.

And it is destroying the economy, and destroying trading.

I wonder whether this thread will be allowed to stay up, but I would like to hear any comments.

its not a disaster its just a beginning of the end my friend

sadownik · July 2018

Ahnog wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Being able to buy in game money for real life money doesn't harm the economy, it stimulates it.

There is no new gold being injected into the game, it's just being moved around the playerbase. This means more gold with more players rather than stored only with the richest ones who won't buy materials etc. because they rarely need them.
The people buying gold for crowns want that gold to spend, either on housing/NPC items (gold sinks) or on items via the traders from players (movement of funds, good for economy and trading).

Note that EVE Online has had the option to buy in game currency for real life money via their PLEX system for years and that game has one of the most complex and well functioning economies in MMO gaming.

Edit to make it read a little better.

So does Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars was designed from ground up with that in mind, ESO sadly is not.

Effect of crown trading will be seen more soon, logging in lately after long time and i already see guild leader of trade guild whining that he had to sell crowns to get rade post cause members didnt cough up more gold. Many, many people still dont know its official and legal to trade those now but the news will spread.

sadownik · July 2018

ADarklore wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Being able to buy in game money for real life money doesn't harm the economy, it stimulates it.

There is no new gold being injected into the game, it's just being moved around the playerbase. This means more gold with more players rather than stored only with the richest ones who won't buy materials etc. because they rarely need them.
The people buying gold for crowns want that gold to spend, either on housing/NPC items (gold sinks) or on items via the traders from players (movement of funds, good for economy and trading).

Note that EVE Online has had the option to buy in game currency for real life money via their PLEX system for years and that game has one of the most complex and well functioning economies in MMO gaming.

Edit to make it read a little better.

There is no new gold coming in, but it is now being gathered in the hands of a few people who have a lot of IRL money and are selling crown store items to other players for gold. This is creating a massive imbalance in the economy.

I am very sorry you cannot see that.

Edit to add: In honesty, a system that allows wealthy players to buy gold packs but including more (and more varied, and more desired) gold sinks, might be preferable.

So apparently you believe that people are trading Crowns for gold and then just SITTING ON the gold and doing nothing with it?!? I beg to differ and Turelus is correct... people trade Crowns for gold so they can then SPEND their gold on items they want without having to spend hours upon hours grinding for gold the old fashioned way. I'm very sorry that YOU cannot see this.

And the prices will risie, and more people will choose the way of selling crowns to get the gild instead of longer and longer process of getting it themselves. Economy 101

Aesthier · July 2018

LadyNalcarya · July 2018

Fischblut wrote: »

The fact that we can officially trade gold for crown store items is one of the best things developers ever did in the game (for me at least)
For example, I would never justify spending 10k crowns on banker and merchant, or 5k crowns on crates "rng". So far assistants are best things I've ever bought with gold - my mansion itself is so useless compared to them Everyone was happy: me, other player, developers (cause they got extra crowns purchase which they wouldn't get otherwise in this case). Even my gold was happy, cause it was finally used for a good cause and returned to economy, instead of being hoarded

Agreed. I also couldnt justify buying a merchant with real money, but I happened to have some extra gold so I bought one.
I'm not botting or anything, my gold was earned by selling various items, so I dont think its harmful for the economy. I guess its more useful when someone actually spends it, it was just collecting digital dust anyway.

Epona222 wrote: »

Allowing trading of crowns for gold.

I have heard several people say that is not "P2W", because crown items are only cosmetic.

However, this is neglecting to look at the other side of the transaction.

People who can open their IRL wallets and offer crown items for sale, are now able to afford anything they like - vet trial carries, guild kiosks, any boe gear they want, carries in dungeons with dungeon gear being exchanged for the limitless amount of gold now available to the IRL wealthy in the game - there are now many multi-billionaires in game, simply due to this one thing.

And it is destroying the economy, and destroying trading.

I wonder whether this thread will be allowed to stay up, but I would like to hear any comments.

Carries? Seriously? Well first of all, anyone can join a guild that does vet trials and obtain all those shiny skins without paying anyone, and if you really really want to be carried, just farm some gold, its not so difficult.
Besides, buying skins is not going to fool anyone, trial guilds are not recruiting players based on skins and even if they manage to join a test raid, their lack of experience will be quite obvious. Not to mention that endgame community is very small and if you buy skins and apply to a raid guild claiming that you're a pve expert, chances are that people will recognize you and will make fun of you.

Even the best BoE gear doesnt guarantee good results and the difference between purple and gold armor is very small. Also, gold mats can be farmed by doing crafting dailies, I never buy tempers because of those quests. Its quick and easy.

Guild kiosk is useless without a functioning trading guild that can actually take advantage of the trading spot.

SilverWF · July 2018

Dunno, ESO didn't have some special luxury or hardly obtainable items, like "Baium ring" or "+20 Dragon Bow", why even cry about this?

Cpt_Teemo · July 2018

SilverWF wrote: »

Dunno, ESO didn't have some special luxury or hardly obtainable items, like "Baium ring" or "+20 Dragon Bow", why even cry about this?

The BA motif market was massive before it hit the store, also the Sharp / Infused weapons before Transmute came in.

mightyskrollan · July 2018

By my opinion the purpose of a trading guild isn't to get the leadership rich. It's about the community inside the guild and the fun of trading itself. People push sales to contribute to the bids and to improve the guild quality. Having a good guild with satisfied members and a strong community should be the achievment, not just having a trader. Since the trader itself gives you nothing. Also getting able to compete is effort and requires time and dedication, together, as a guild.
So what happens with getting gold due to crown exchanges is that people bid out guilds which were working for their position for a long time - but without beeing able to compete or provide equal offers or a similiar community.
And depending on their reallife wealth repeatedly, maybe just for trolling.
For guilds which are on the market for a long-time it's causing a gold burn, which is annoying but most likely affordable. For rather new guilds which are trying to establish and work out such mentioned strong community it could be the end since unreasonable high bids wont be affordable on a regular basis, even tho the person that bids with crown-gold may not even intend to provide a good trading guild. What could ruin monthes of work and is also hard to handle, because how should they fight for a spot with reason if guild income/cost relations, gold reserves etc. doesn't matter to their competitor at all.
The harm that'd be caused that way is therefore on the social factor and not an economical. It affects whole communities which were working for a goal for a long duration. As a guildmaster your focus should always be the guild and your members, never on your own wallet.

What really destroys the economics is the oversupply of specific items due to the trillion of events (double loot, anniversary etc.) but that's off-topic.

On the player side I don't really mind. People won't get good and carry achievments which are valued nothing if not achieved on the real way. If someone want's to get everything effortless he should maybe consider if he plays the correct videogame genre.
That's rather poor, but not my business.

But since the misuse possibilities outperform the advantanges I am still against the crown-gifting system.
There's just nothing to avoid vicious intents.

Aesthier · July 2018

One person has a ton of free time to "earn" in-game cash with.

Another person works a ton to earn out-of-game cash.

Makes no difference to me which way they earn their cash nor what they spend it on.

That's their business.

All this sounds like to me is a bunch of people frustrated they will no longer have a monopoly on the market.

mightyskrollan · July 2018

Aesthier wrote: »

One person has a ton of free time to "earn" in-game cash with.

Another person works a ton to earn out-of-game cash.

Makes no difference to me which way they earn their cash nor what they spend it on.

That's their business.

All this sounds like to me is a bunch of people frustrated they will no longer have a monopoly on the market.

I don't see why this should be a time issue. By this argument it's like downloading a 100% savegame to save the time to play through a purchased game (what's not making any sense). Or using cheat tables to make it less challenging. Of course it's individual and about mentality maybe. Beside that - "time" is the classic excuse for lack of efficiency or laziness

Also considering that the "bunch of people" mentioned, are the people which can easily afford to exchange gold for crowns and still the last that would be affected or even lose their market position at all.

Fiktius · July 2018

Aesthier wrote: »

All this sounds like to me is a bunch of people frustrated they will no longer have a monopoly on the market.

And what would stop them exactly?
Those people who already have enough gold to maintain price manipulation market wide for weeks, they surely can compete with people who are trying to have an impact on markets by using real money for the game.

Only annoying impact of gold buyers via crowns is that smaller guilds have a chance to take a top trader spot for a week, yet to find out how one week later they are outbid again with mega bid. Then smaller guilds may realize that their current tax income and donations might not be even close to compensate the giant gold sink which bidding mega bids to trader practically is. If the smaller guild is willing to open wallet again for dropping even higher bid for the top spot again, all what I can say about it is:

"Good luck with that."

exeeter702 · July 2018

Fiktius wrote: »

Aesthier wrote: »

All this sounds like to me is a bunch of people frustrated they will no longer have a monopoly on the market.

And what would stop them exactly?
Those people who already have enough gold to maintain price manipulation market wide for weeks, they surely can compete with people who are trying to have an impact on markets by using real money for the game.

Only annoying impact of gold buyers via crowns is that smaller guilds have a chance to take a top trader spot for a week, yet to find out how one week later they are outbid again with mega bid. Then smaller guilds may realize that their current tax income and donations might not be even close to compensate the giant gold sink which bidding mega bids to trader practically is. If the smaller guild is willing to open wallet again for dropping even higher bid for the top spot again, all what I can say about it is:

"Good luck with that."

Those that make their gold from crown gifting dont need traders to make gold

Fiktius · July 2018

exeeter702 wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

Aesthier wrote: »

All this sounds like to me is a bunch of people frustrated they will no longer have a monopoly on the market.

And what would stop them exactly?
Those people who already have enough gold to maintain price manipulation market wide for weeks, they surely can compete with people who are trying to have an impact on markets by using real money for the game.

Only annoying impact of gold buyers via crowns is that smaller guilds have a chance to take a top trader spot for a week, yet to find out how one week later they are outbid again with mega bid. Then smaller guilds may realize that their current tax income and donations might not be even close to compensate the giant gold sink which bidding mega bids to trader practically is. If the smaller guild is willing to open wallet again for dropping even higher bid for the top spot again, all what I can say about it is:

"Good luck with that."

Those that make their gold from crown gifting dont need traders to make gold

Obviously. They are free to burn their real money into virtual currency inside a game. ZOS won't mind at all.

exeeter702 · July 2018

Fiktius wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

Aesthier wrote: »

All this sounds like to me is a bunch of people frustrated they will no longer have a monopoly on the market.

And what would stop them exactly?
Those people who already have enough gold to maintain price manipulation market wide for weeks, they surely can compete with people who are trying to have an impact on markets by using real money for the game.

Only annoying impact of gold buyers via crowns is that smaller guilds have a chance to take a top trader spot for a week, yet to find out how one week later they are outbid again with mega bid. Then smaller guilds may realize that their current tax income and donations might not be even close to compensate the giant gold sink which bidding mega bids to trader practically is. If the smaller guild is willing to open wallet again for dropping even higher bid for the top spot again, all what I can say about it is:

"Good luck with that."

Those that make their gold from crown gifting dont need traders to make gold

Obviously. They are free to burn their real money into virtual currency inside a game. ZOS won't mind at all.

You say that like its a bad thing. It isnt. My disposable income is not the same as someone elses. Which doesnt even conisder the fact that i now have a way to make use of my monthly stipend from eso+

"Burning their money"....

Lol.

ecru · July 2018

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

I do not understand why people are not allowed to buy in-game money with real money directly. Because this is what ZOS has recently done, but in a very complicated way that often results in scams.

No it isn't, not even close. 13 people agreeing to this post is hilarious though.

ZOS has allowed people to sell crown store items for gold, which transfers gold from one player to another. People being allowed to simply buy gold with cash would inflate the supply as the gold is created. No new gold is being created by ZOS as a result of crown store gifting.

Fiktius · July 2018

exeeter702 wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

Aesthier wrote: »

All this sounds like to me is a bunch of people frustrated they will no longer have a monopoly on the market.

And what would stop them exactly?
Those people who already have enough gold to maintain price manipulation market wide for weeks, they surely can compete with people who are trying to have an impact on markets by using real money for the game.

Only annoying impact of gold buyers via crowns is that smaller guilds have a chance to take a top trader spot for a week, yet to find out how one week later they are outbid again with mega bid. Then smaller guilds may realize that their current tax income and donations might not be even close to compensate the giant gold sink which bidding mega bids to trader practically is. If the smaller guild is willing to open wallet again for dropping even higher bid for the top spot again, all what I can say about it is:

"Good luck with that."

Those that make their gold from crown gifting dont need traders to make gold

Obviously. They are free to burn their real money into virtual currency inside a game. ZOS won't mind at all.

You say that like its a bad thing. It isnt. My disposable income is not the same as someone elses. Which doesnt even conisder the fact that i now have a way to make use of my monthly stipend from eso+

"Burning their money"....

Lol.

When keeping in mind the context and my reply which you decided to quote anyways, using crowns for getting gold which would be used for trader bid right after is indeed something which I consider as "burning money" since trader bid gold is a gold sink of the game.

But hey, you can use your crowns how ever you want, I'm not judging.