griffkhalifa wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

No

meta being meta

Not everyone who disagrees is being "meta." I main a Khajiit and one of my racial passives is basically useless and I don't want any changes. It's fine the way it is.

OP seems to have that "either be with or be the evil" mentality that is quite common nowadays.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ovinnik wrote: »

I don't see how opening up all classes to all races would "kill" diversity, as some maintain. Care to elaborate?

It would kill diversity in two ways.

1) If you simply dismiss all racial passives without replacement system you would dumb down build options. Right now you coordinate racials, classes, which resource, set combinations, mundus, food/drinks, skills. There are undoubtedly some meta builds (e.g. alter mag sorc with pets, necro, witchmother etc.) but still options for non-meta builds (dunmer stamsorc with way of fire, skoria, red mountain as utter pvp cheese). Taking away one or several of those building bricks can only lessen real build diversity because then your character model (race) would actually be just that. You lessen overall options avaible.

Less options = lower diversity

2) If you dismiss all racial passives with some kind of replacement system it would cause that races are indifferent (like above) but with the difference that everyone would flock to the then deemed meta "birthsign" or whatever it is they would introduce. E.g. if Birthsign Atronach would give the best bang on mag sorcs, every mag sorc would run that, no matter if Dunmer, Altmer, Breton, Imperial etc without even wasting a thought. Right now some people want to run a khajiit at all cost, even on their mag toons. So they become diverse to those who run an Altmer for the passives. ATM you have to make the decision "do I want to run my favourite race model or do I want 4% more shock damage?".

No restrictions/ opportunity costs for meta builds = everyone flocks to that = lower diversity

I personally would be fine with a "birthsign" or whatever, because that (probably) wouldn't impact the appearance of my character, which is an important part of who my characters are. Soft-RPers like myself shouldn't be pidgeon-holed into a particular class/role based on the race we want our characters to be. If I want to play a sword-slinging Breton or a powerful tank of a Khajiit, I ought be able to. What stars they were born under is far less important, to me, than what species they were born to.

As I've mentioned before in this thread (and many others), yes, I can play a Stamblade Breton and be viable for all but timed trials, but that's not the popular perception among the min-maxers, of which there are many, and enough of that subset of the population are toxic enough to be a bother. I'd really rather not be judged in a Dungeon or even a non-time-seeking Trial run based on the colour of the hands holding a pair of daggers.

Benemime wrote: »

How many meta race players have you heard saying this?

My solution:

Remove the current racial passives entirely. The only racial passive we should have is the inherent racial passive, like the 1% AP bonus gain from breton, 1% gold bonus gain from imperials, and so on, because passives creates an imbalance, a go-to race, lack of freedom. Statiscally, high elves outnumbers every other race. I'm imperial sorc, my passives tells me that I had a heavy training as a warrior. Well, I haven't. I'm a mage, I didn't train to be a warrior.

Instead of the current passives, we should have a tab called "Specialization", between skill and champion tree tab, where we set our specialization and chose what we would like to raise: max magicka or max stamina for base energy resource (pick one), pick one defensive passive (max hp, spell/physical resistance, crit resist?, healing received, and so on), 1 recovery passive (like, magicka recovery, health recovery, decreased cost of stamina or magicka ability passive, and so on), offensive passive (spell/physical dmg, spell/physical crit, spell/phys. penetration, healing done), always picking one from each.

This covers everything, free us from bouding to races that we don't like, and actually would release us to be 100% better.

2nd solution idea that is out there: Birthsigns instead of racial passives.

all i want is a redguard mag dk

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Buff Dunmer racial passives. We should also be able to swim faster in lava.

I don't think anyone can argue this.

ovinnik wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ovinnik wrote: »

I don't see how opening up all classes to all races would "kill" diversity, as some maintain. Care to elaborate?

It would kill diversity in two ways.

1) If you simply dismiss all racial passives without replacement system you would dumb down build options. Right now you coordinate racials, classes, which resource, set combinations, mundus, food/drinks, skills. There are undoubtedly some meta builds (e.g. alter mag sorc with pets, necro, witchmother etc.) but still options for non-meta builds (dunmer stamsorc with way of fire, skoria, red mountain as utter pvp cheese). Taking away one or several of those building bricks can only lessen real build diversity because then your character model (race) would actually be just that. You lessen overall options avaible.

Less options = lower diversity

2) If you dismiss all racial passives with some kind of replacement system it would cause that races are indifferent (like above) but with the difference that everyone would flock to the then deemed meta "birthsign" or whatever it is they would introduce. E.g. if Birthsign Atronach would give the best bang on mag sorcs, every mag sorc would run that, no matter if Dunmer, Altmer, Breton, Imperial etc without even wasting a thought. Right now some people want to run a khajiit at all cost, even on their mag toons. So they become diverse to those who run an Altmer for the passives. ATM you have to make the decision "do I want to run my favourite race model or do I want 4% more shock damage?".

No restrictions/ opportunity costs for meta builds = everyone flocks to that = lower diversity

So you argue for build diversity while others argue for cosmetic diversity. That's fair. Your conclusions are questionable, however.

1) Fewer options would constitute an argument if those "options" weren't pure, uninteresting stat increases. All builds would need to substitute attributes some other way, not just niche ones. Meta builds, hybrids, all of them. Take away one building brick, leave several others that do the same thing. So what?

2) You want people to make sacrifices for not following the meta, because you deem cosmetic diversity unimportant, or else reprehensible. Why? If I think that cosmetic diversity is important and shouldn't be punished, we're at an impasse.

You also argue against yourself, here. In 1) you talk about interesting niche builds that need unconventional stat boosts. Now, in 2), you claim everyone would flock to a meta birthsign and stop making niche builds, even though they'd have access to those stat boosts.

1) Without replacement system, were would we get e.g. increased fire damage done from? Or that interesting potion-passive? Simply taking away without replacement (this is what I talked about in 1) would render us unable to do certain things.

2) Okay, I try to explain it again.
Right now you can choose between meta and non-meta race/class/role combos. Appeal of non-meta is your preference for certain races or because you want to play outside the box. Yes, you can turn this around and call it a sacrifice on performance.

If you want to run a khajiit stam toon instead of an redguard you have to shuffle things around. In that comparison a Redguard lacks crit but has higher sustain and stam pool. So how do we make something good out of that then as a suboptimal race? A khajiit plays around with it's increased crit (e.g. using briarhearth, doesn't need to slot evil hunter and therefor can opt for something else), a dunmer adds more sources of fire dmg to make good of it's passive - the races play differently if you cater to their boons. Sure, you could still try to run/rotate exactly the same as a meta build with just another race but you would run into issues.

Will they still parse below meta (no matter if cater to their strength or played identically)? Yes. That's the mentioned sacrifice.

But if I can select my race without consequence and just choose e.g. a birthsign why should I run anything else but the meta? Right now more people tend to run diverse/niche builds for their undying love to a specific race. They are somewhat forced to build around. With no racials and just birthsigns there is no need to run anything but meta. The "favourite race"- incentive to do so gets completely taken out, you would only run non-meta because you are bored, don't know what your doing or because you want to gimp your performance for being a snowflake or roleplay reasons.

I do acknowledge that even that can be fun, but so does playing a non-fitting race and buiding around it's strength.

Tl;dr - the incentive (using my fav race) to run non-meta builds gets diminished.


And on what's more important - build or visual diversity - that's a question everyone has to answer for him/herself. I just described the effects of taking out an already implemented part of character crafting. My own opinion? I think making everything do the same at the exact same level would kill a good part of what an RPG makes for me. Some things should be better for one stuff while other things should be better for different stuff. Even if we'd make all races equal we know the quest for equality wouldn't stop there. "Why can only NBs cloak? Why are magSorcs better at range than magDKs?" Next stop: dump classes. And then we are at the exact same discussion again.

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

IMO race assigned racial passives should be done away with altogether. Instead you should be allowed to pick 5 or so former racial passives from a group based on your class. As an example, a Khajiit sorcerer would focus on passives that boost their magic and spell casting, while an Altmer nightblade would choose passives that would enhance their stealth and ambush skills.

... and that would kill the game.

@Chilly-McFreeze expressed it perfectly at the end of his last post : "(...) Some things should be better for one stuff while other things should be better for different stuff. Even if we'd make all races equal we know the quest for equality wouldn't stop there. "Why can only NBs cloak? Why are magSorcs better at range than magDKs?" Next stop: dump classes. And then we are at the exact same discussion again. (...)".

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ovinnik wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ovinnik wrote: »

I don't see how opening up all classes to all races would "kill" diversity, as some maintain. Care to elaborate?

It would kill diversity in two ways.

1) If you simply dismiss all racial passives without replacement system you would dumb down build options. Right now you coordinate racials, classes, which resource, set combinations, mundus, food/drinks, skills. There are undoubtedly some meta builds (e.g. alter mag sorc with pets, necro, witchmother etc.) but still options for non-meta builds (dunmer stamsorc with way of fire, skoria, red mountain as utter pvp cheese). Taking away one or several of those building bricks can only lessen real build diversity because then your character model (race) would actually be just that. You lessen overall options avaible.

Less options = lower diversity

2) If you dismiss all racial passives with some kind of replacement system it would cause that races are indifferent (like above) but with the difference that everyone would flock to the then deemed meta "birthsign" or whatever it is they would introduce. E.g. if Birthsign Atronach would give the best bang on mag sorcs, every mag sorc would run that, no matter if Dunmer, Altmer, Breton, Imperial etc without even wasting a thought. Right now some people want to run a khajiit at all cost, even on their mag toons. So they become diverse to those who run an Altmer for the passives. ATM you have to make the decision "do I want to run my favourite race model or do I want 4% more shock damage?".

No restrictions/ opportunity costs for meta builds = everyone flocks to that = lower diversity

So you argue for build diversity while others argue for cosmetic diversity. That's fair. Your conclusions are questionable, however.

1) Fewer options would constitute an argument if those "options" weren't pure, uninteresting stat increases. All builds would need to substitute attributes some other way, not just niche ones. Meta builds, hybrids, all of them. Take away one building brick, leave several others that do the same thing. So what?

2) You want people to make sacrifices for not following the meta, because you deem cosmetic diversity unimportant, or else reprehensible. Why? If I think that cosmetic diversity is important and shouldn't be punished, we're at an impasse.

You also argue against yourself, here. In 1) you talk about interesting niche builds that need unconventional stat boosts. Now, in 2), you claim everyone would flock to a meta birthsign and stop making niche builds, even though they'd have access to those stat boosts.

1) Without replacement system, were would we get e.g. increased fire damage done from? Or that interesting potion-passive? Simply taking away without replacement (this is what I talked about in 1) would render us unable to do certain things.

2) Okay, I try to explain it again.
Right now you can choose between meta and non-meta race/class/role combos. Appeal of non-meta is your preference for certain races or because you want to play outside the box. Yes, you can turn this around and call it a sacrifice on performance.

If you want to run a khajiit stam toon instead of an redguard you have to shuffle things around. In that comparison a Redguard lacks crit but has higher sustain and stam pool. So how do we make something good out of that then as a suboptimal race? A khajiit plays around with it's increased crit (e.g. using briarhearth, doesn't need to slot evil hunter and therefor can opt for something else), a dunmer adds more sources of fire dmg to make good of it's passive - the races play differently if you cater to their boons. Sure, you could still try to run/rotate exactly the same as a meta build with just another race but you would run into issues.

Will they still parse below meta (no matter if cater to their strength or played identically)? Yes. That's the mentioned sacrifice.

But if I can select my race without consequence and just choose e.g. a birthsign why should I run anything else but the meta? Right now more people tend to run diverse/niche builds for their undying love to a specific race. They are somewhat forced to build around. With no racials and just birthsigns there is no need to run anything but meta. The "favourite race"- incentive to do so gets completely taken out, you would only run non-meta because you are bored, don't know what your doing or because you want to gimp your performance for being a snowflake or roleplay reasons.

I do acknowledge that even that can be fun, but so does playing a non-fitting race and buiding around it's strength.

Tl;dr - the incentive (using my fav race) to run non-meta builds gets diminished.


And on what's more important - build or visual diversity - that's a question everyone has to answer for him/herself. I just described the effects of taking out an already implemented part of character crafting. My own opinion? I think making everything do the same at the exact same level would kill a good part of what an RPG makes for me. Some things should be better for one stuff while other things should be better for different stuff. Even if we'd make all races equal we know the quest for equality wouldn't stop there. "Why can only NBs cloak? Why are magSorcs better at range than magDKs?" Next stop: dump classes. And then we are at the exact same discussion again.

1) Fire damage is one flavour of spell damage, so perhaps from there. You're right about the Argonian passive: If all of them were this interesting, we might not be having this discussion. Alas.

2) This is correct and important: "the races play differently if you cater to their boons." Again, though, what reason is there to tie these boons to races, other than to punish those with an interest in factors other than the meta? You want to force these people into building around a suboptimal race, while many who choose such a race aren't inclined to build around anything. They just want their tails or pointy ears. And for that they're actively shunned by parts of the community, because visual indication of their "bad" choice makes shunning them just so very easy.

So why should you choose a non-meta birthsign? Because you have an active interest in creating your own worthwhile builds. Many don't.

As for your final thought: Races and classes are not the same, and complete homogenization of classes is a moot point. They "play differently", as it were. I don't see this changing, and I'd wager that neither do you. Here's the crux: Classes are what determines playstyles in RPGs. Race, in my experience, primarily determines other elements. Dialogue options, for instance. Rarely do they affect combat as blatantly as they do here, and that's intentional.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ovinnik wrote: »

I don't see how opening up all classes to all races would "kill" diversity, as some maintain. Care to elaborate?

It would kill diversity in two ways.

1) If you simply dismiss all racial passives without replacement system you would dumb down build options. Right now you coordinate racials, classes, which resource, set combinations, mundus, food/drinks, skills. There are undoubtedly some meta builds (e.g. alter mag sorc with pets, necro, witchmother etc.) but still options for non-meta builds (dunmer stamsorc with way of fire, skoria, red mountain as utter pvp cheese). Taking away one or several of those building bricks can only lessen real build diversity because then your character model (race) would actually be just that. You lessen overall options avaible.

Less options = lower diversity

2) If you dismiss all racial passives with some kind of replacement system it would cause that races are indifferent (like above) but with the difference that everyone would flock to the then deemed meta "birthsign" or whatever it is they would introduce. E.g. if Birthsign Atronach would give the best bang on mag sorcs, every mag sorc would run that, no matter if Dunmer, Altmer, Breton, Imperial etc without even wasting a thought. Right now some people want to run a khajiit at all cost, even on their mag toons. So they become diverse to those who run an Altmer for the passives. ATM you have to make the decision "do I want to run my favourite race model or do I want 4% more shock damage?".

that doesn't make sense. And the current system already kills diversity since altmer outnumbers every other race by far (followed by dunmer), plenty of threads and statistics already showed us that. The current system tie us to a certain class, not a single MMO is like that, this system only ESO has and has a big impact on gameplay, this isn't a singleplayer game that you could just ignore racial passives and beat endgame effortlessly, this game being competitive matters, pvp matters, we can't just ignore overpowered passives.

"Kills diversity" is just another excuse for "i run with a race that is efficient with my class, and I chose it because I want that advantage over others that aren't willing to play with my race, my choice should matter!"

I don't see how giving a lot of options with passive customization would "kill diversity". There's a lot of builds and one offensive passive like physical/spell penetration, phys. or spell dmg, critical, healing done fits with different sets and builds. It's not killing it's giving more options.

Slack wrote: »

I tell you all a secret : 10% more mag regen as altmer is nice, but won't break or make you.
If you blow without that passive, you will still be bad if you re-roll

Who says that we blow without those passives? "I want my passives because they are great, but you should just git gud!!11!".

This isn't about blowing, this isn't an argument about 9% magicka recovery (on top of 10% max magicka and 4% buff to elemental dmg, that you "forgot" to mention), it's about you having all of these bonuses and those who are not willing to play with altmer, are sitting with 2 or 3 useless passives.

Players that are insatisfied with the current system are probably better than you since we have to make it work without them.

maciopa wrote: »

Ahem - it is an OPEN WORLD and OPEN RP Game - you want to be an Orc Magicka Sorcerer - be one! But be aware that you SHOULDN'T BE as good in casting spells as an Altmer, because the evolution of your race evolved around might and brutality in harsh conditions thus promoting physical development over the mental one...

I play an wood elf DragonKnight Tank and it works perfectly even tough MinMaxers ask "WHY?" - "Because I like my own style not yours". So play the game the way that enjoys you not others so you start liking spending time here instead of MinMaxing it...

[removed comment]

Redguard is good with sword because of their culture and their tradition to chose warrior star to be born under, is all about specialization

Benemime wrote: »

maciopa wrote: »

Ahem - it is an OPEN WORLD and OPEN RP Game - you want to be an Orc Magicka Sorcerer - be one! But be aware that you SHOULDN'T BE as good in casting spells as an Altmer, because the evolution of your race evolved around might and brutality in harsh conditions thus promoting physical development over the mental one...

I play an wood elf DragonKnight Tank and it works perfectly even tough MinMaxers ask "WHY?" - "Because I like my own style not yours". So play the game the way that enjoys you not others so you start liking spending time here instead of MinMaxing it...

it's like saying that black people should play basketball instead of studying science, or asians must be good at math.

Redguard is good with sword because of their culture and their tradition to chose warrior star to be born under, is all about specialization

Okay, you totally lost it here. First off, this is a computer game, this is not about real people of different heritage. So just because they display "races" doesn't mean anything. Why? Because you get to freely choose them. It's not about races it's about something you truely choose by yourself.

You can compare it to buying a (stock) car. I like the look of sporty cars but I have to transport huge stuff. I know that an BMW M3 is faster than a VW T5, but I also know that that T5 has far more space than said BMW. It's nothing else when choose a specific race in a video game.

You want the sporty look with the option to transport a piano. And because that's not what you can do when you buy that stupid BMW you trow a fit and accuse everyone who says "just buy that VW" of being a ***. That's how you come across.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ovinnik wrote: »

I don't see how opening up all classes to all races would "kill" diversity, as some maintain. Care to elaborate?

It would kill diversity in two ways.

1) If you simply dismiss all racial passives without replacement system you would dumb down build options. Right now you coordinate racials, classes, which resource, set combinations, mundus, food/drinks, skills. There are undoubtedly some meta builds (e.g. alter mag sorc with pets, necro, witchmother etc.) but still options for non-meta builds (dunmer stamsorc with way of fire, skoria, red mountain as utter pvp cheese). Taking away one or several of those building bricks can only lessen real build diversity because then your character model (race) would actually be just that. You lessen overall options avaible.

Less options = lower diversity

2) If you dismiss all racial passives with some kind of replacement system it would cause that races are indifferent (like above) but with the difference that everyone would flock to the then deemed meta "birthsign" or whatever it is they would introduce. E.g. if Birthsign Atronach would give the best bang on mag sorcs, every mag sorc would run that, no matter if Dunmer, Altmer, Breton, Imperial etc without even wasting a thought. Right now some people want to run a khajiit at all cost, even on their mag toons. So they become diverse to those who run an Altmer for the passives. ATM you have to make the decision "do I want to run my favourite race model or do I want 4% more shock damage?".

that doesn't make sense. And the current system already kills diversity since altmer outnumbers every other race by far (followed by dunmer), plenty of threads and statistics already showed us that. The current system tie us to a certain class, not a single MMO is like that, this system only ESO has and has a big impact on gameplay, this isn't a singleplayer game that you could just ignore racial passives and beat endgame effortlessly, this game being competitive matters, pvp matters, we can't just ignore overpowered passives.

"Kills diversity" is just another excuse for "i run with a race that is efficient with my class, and I chose it because I want that advantage over others that aren't willing to play with my race, my choice should matter!"

I don't see how giving a lot of options with passive customization would "kill diversity". There's a lot of builds and one offensive passive like physical/spell penetration, phys. or spell dmg, critical, healing done fits with different sets and builds. It's not killing it's giving more options.

Slack wrote: »

I tell you all a secret : 10% more mag regen as altmer is nice, but won't break or make you.
If you blow without that passive, you will still be bad if you re-roll

Who says that we blow without those passives? "I want my passives because they are great, but you should just git gud!!11!".

This isn't about blowing, this isn't an argument about 9% magicka recovery (on top of 10% max magicka and 4% buff to elemental dmg, that you "forgot" to mention), it's about you having all of these bonuses and those who are not willing to play with altmer, are sitting with 2 or 3 useless passives.

Players that are insatisfied with the current system are probably better than you since we have to make it work without them.

A lot of assumption and no real substance. Congratulations. First off, my comment does make sense. If you can't figure it out, there is another comment of mine below that explains it once more. If you still don't get it, I can cut it even shorter. Heck, I just do.

In a "No Replacement" scenario:
-less overall options of different builds (this includes a possible Nord mag DK)
-no replacement means total loss of unique passives (argonian potions, dunmer fire, etc.)

In a scenario with free to choose replacement, e.g. birthsigns:
-incentive to run non-meta combinations get diminished ("I want to play race X, no matter what" is an incentive)

Also, my main is a Dunmer Stam Sorc, far from something you'd call a best in slot combination, so much for "I want to keep my OP passives".
And if people with non-meta combinations are generally better is up to prove. But yes, I'm doing fine pvp wise on mentioned dunmer sSorc. Only thing you proved, on the other hand, is that you're inapt to understand why people are in favor for keeping class passives. Oh, even a few posts above the one of me you quoted I literally wrote:

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

And what I would do? Buff underwhelming races to the point they are worthwhile while leaving current good races where they are. But not in "everyone must be able to do everything at the exact same level" but more like "Race X + Class Y + Role Z" work like a charm". Choices would still be there. Races would still matter.
If you make everything the same you set a ball rolling that likely wouldn't stop there. What's next would be questions like "why don't we get rid of class restrictions bc my nord stamsorc healer is outperformed by an altmer magplar healer". You know where this is going.

So please leave your "I wanna keep OP passives while others are down in the mud" prejudgment out of this. Otherwise, if you remain that hysteric and biased, people could stop to take your comments serious.

Edit: I think your main issue is to understand that diversity doesn't mean total performance equality. Some builds work better than others for certain roles, just as it should be. But see the part where I quoted myself.

You are the one making assumptions because you are trying to take birthsigns as a real thing (even tho it's not even implemented and we don't know how it would turn out to be), and making assumptions about what you think it would cause and what buffs Atronach brings to the table, that every magicka character would run with Atronach, etc. - talking about diversity

A player who wants to play a Redguard will make a Redguard. He will play his role using Magicka and by top level realise he should be using a different race. He will either buy a Race Change Token or level a new character with a more fitting race.

Now he is playing a Race he doesn't want to play because it is more fitting to his playstyle.

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????????????????????????HOW DOES THIS BENEFIT ANYONE????????????????????????

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Benemime wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ovinnik wrote: »

I don't see how opening up all classes to all races would "kill" diversity, as some maintain. Care to elaborate?

It would kill diversity in two ways.

1) If you simply dismiss all racial passives without replacement system you would dumb down build options. Right now you coordinate racials, classes, which resource, set combinations, mundus, food/drinks, skills. There are undoubtedly some meta builds (e.g. alter mag sorc with pets, necro, witchmother etc.) but still options for non-meta builds (dunmer stamsorc with way of fire, skoria, red mountain as utter pvp cheese). Taking away one or several of those building bricks can only lessen real build diversity because then your character model (race) would actually be just that. You lessen overall options avaible.

Less options = lower diversity

2) If you dismiss all racial passives with some kind of replacement system it would cause that races are indifferent (like above) but with the difference that everyone would flock to the then deemed meta "birthsign" or whatever it is they would introduce. E.g. if Birthsign Atronach would give the best bang on mag sorcs, every mag sorc would run that, no matter if Dunmer, Altmer, Breton, Imperial etc without even wasting a thought. Right now some people want to run a khajiit at all cost, even on their mag toons. So they become diverse to those who run an Altmer for the passives. ATM you have to make the decision "do I want to run my favourite race model or do I want 4% more shock damage?".

that doesn't make sense. And the current system already kills diversity since altmer outnumbers every other race by far (followed by dunmer), plenty of threads and statistics already showed us that. The current system tie us to a certain class, not a single MMO is like that, this system only ESO has and has a big impact on gameplay, this isn't a singleplayer game that you could just ignore racial passives and beat endgame effortlessly, this game being competitive matters, pvp matters, we can't just ignore overpowered passives.

"Kills diversity" is just another excuse for "i run with a race that is efficient with my class, and I chose it because I want that advantage over others that aren't willing to play with my race, my choice should matter!"

I don't see how giving a lot of options with passive customization would "kill diversity". There's a lot of builds and one offensive passive like physical/spell penetration, phys. or spell dmg, critical, healing done fits with different sets and builds. It's not killing it's giving more options.

Slack wrote: »

I tell you all a secret : 10% more mag regen as altmer is nice, but won't break or make you.
If you blow without that passive, you will still be bad if you re-roll

Who says that we blow without those passives? "I want my passives because they are great, but you should just git gud!!11!".

This isn't about blowing, this isn't an argument about 9% magicka recovery (on top of 10% max magicka and 4% buff to elemental dmg, that you "forgot" to mention), it's about you having all of these bonuses and those who are not willing to play with altmer, are sitting with 2 or 3 useless passives.

Players that are insatisfied with the current system are probably better than you since we have to make it work without them.

A lot of assumption and no real substance. Congratulations. First off, my comment does make sense. If you can't figure it out, there is another comment of mine below that explains it once more. If you still don't get it, I can cut it even shorter. Heck, I just do.

In a "No Replacement" scenario:
-less overall options of different builds (this includes a possible Nord mag DK)
-no replacement means total loss of unique passives (argonian potions, dunmer fire, etc.)

In a scenario with free to choose replacement, e.g. birthsigns:
-incentive to run non-meta combinations get diminished ("I want to play race X, no matter what" is an incentive)

Also, my main is a Dunmer Stam Sorc, far from something you'd call a best in slot combination, so much for "I want to keep my OP passives".
And if people with non-meta combinations are generally better is up to prove. But yes, I'm doing fine pvp wise on mentioned dunmer sSorc. Only thing you proved, on the other hand, is that you're inapt to understand why people are in favor for keeping class passives. Oh, even a few posts above the one of me you quoted I literally wrote:

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

And what I would do? Buff underwhelming races to the point they are worthwhile while leaving current good races where they are. But not in "everyone must be able to do everything at the exact same level" but more like "Race X + Class Y + Role Z" work like a charm". Choices would still be there. Races would still matter.
If you make everything the same you set a ball rolling that likely wouldn't stop there. What's next would be questions like "why don't we get rid of class restrictions bc my nord stamsorc healer is outperformed by an altmer magplar healer". You know where this is going.

So please leave your "I wanna keep OP passives while others are down in the mud" prejudgment out of this. Otherwise, if you remain that hysteric and biased, people could stop to take your comments serious.

Edit: I think your main issue is to understand that diversity doesn't mean total performance equality. Some builds work better than others for certain roles, just as it should be. But see the part where I quoted myself.

You are the one making assumptions because you are trying to take birthsigns as a real thing (even tho it's not even implemented and we don't know how it would turn out to be), and making assumptions about what you think it would cause and what buffs Atronach brings to the table, that every magicka character would run with Atronach, etc. - talking about diversity

By all means, he?

Do you understand how a discussion works? Do you know how you think things through?
Most importantly do you know the difference in making assumpitions like:

Benemime wrote: »

[

"Kills diversity" is just another excuse for "i run with a race that is efficient with my class, and I chose it because I want that advantage over others that aren't willing to play with my race, my choice should matter!"

[...]

"I want my passives because they are great, but you should just git gud!!11!".

[...]

Players that are insatisfied with the current system are probably better than you since we have to make it work without them.

and making "assumptions" on how things could play out by thinking through how deleting racial passives with or without replacement system could/would affect "meta chasing" and build diversity?

I did the latter while you're simply looking at this topic from an "I want" perspective. And to achieve your goal you belittle people with opposing views, assign them bias and egocentric thinking and now stoop low with trying to pullmy at least somewhat thought out "what would that lead to"-answers to the same level as your ad hominem arguments and general attacks. *at least in your latest responses*

ZOS didn't said they will change racials. This thread is enterily hypothetic. But to discuss suggestions not only means to look at things like "what is an issue at the moment?" and "how could that be dealt with" but also at the "how could that solution play out?". We all know that Zeni sometimes seems to forget about the latter. Remember how they dealt with "infinite sustain" and killed sap tanks with their solution?

However, this is now the second time I ask you to keep it civil. I'd really appriciate that. Thanks.

Vahrokh wrote: »

I always played Dark Elf mage in every game and love it.

Thus in ESO I created a Dunmer Magsorc.

What's wrong with that?

I chose a Dark elf sorc at launch because I really wanted to be a dark elf and I liked the look of sorcerer. I didn't want to be an Altmer like everyone else so I made my choice knowing the consequences.

The Dark elf racial buff was just a blast of luck to me.