Rune cage fix

Stibbons · July 2018

Rune cage could also negate cost of next streak too. Just to balance things.

Biro123 · July 2018

I don't understand.
Pre summerset, when it did not damage, nobody complained(and nobody used it)
So it must be the damage that's the problem, right?
So to get it to a place between then and now, where it is worth using but people don't complain, isn't a damage reduction the obvious change?
But then it IS a sorc' ability. They are always very binary - either not worth slotting or everyone cries about them.

Takes-No-Prisoner · July 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

I don't understand.
Pre summerset, when it did not damage, nobody complained(and nobody used it)
So it must be the damage that's the problem, right?
So to get it to a place between then and now, where it is worth using but people don't complain, isn't a damage reduction the obvious change?
But then it IS a sorc' ability. They are always very binary - either not worth slotting or everyone cries about them.

From my perspective it's 2 problems people take issue with;

1. a Unblockable insta-gib kill set up using Meteor(precast)+Cage
2. a combo that can sometimes take a squishy target from 100-0% health, AKA touch of death combo, involving Mage's Fury/Implosion procs with other skills mixed in.

Reducing the damage would help with the second issue. Touch of death combos are ones with extremely little counter play and are really very powerful if only the procs go off right. And I've actually done a touch of death combo on a StamNB the other day. I caged him during a roll dodge, Frag+Fury and as he was CC breaking, he got hit by Cage damage and Fury proc AND Implosion proc activated just as I hit the guy with a LA. Devastating stuff.

Biro123 · July 2018

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I don't understand.
Pre summerset, when it did not damage, nobody complained(and nobody used it)
So it must be the damage that's the problem, right?
So to get it to a place between then and now, where it is worth using but people don't complain, isn't a damage reduction the obvious change?
But then it IS a sorc' ability. They are always very binary - either not worth slotting or everyone cries about them.

From my perspective it's 2 problems people take issue with;

1. a Unblockable insta-gib kill set up using Meteor(precast)+Cage
2. a combo that can sometimes take a squishy target from 100-0% health, AKA touch of death combo, involving Mage's Fury/Implosion procs with other skills mixed in.

Reducing the damage would help with the second issue. Touch of death combos are ones with extremely little counter play and are really very powerful if only the procs go off right. And I've actually done a touch of death combo on a StamNB the other day. I caged him during a roll dodge, Frag+Fury and as he was CC breaking, he got hit by Cage damage and Fury proc AND Implosion proc activated just as I hit the guy with a LA. Devastating stuff.

I know, I just don't get why the forums didn't erupt pre-summerset. I was finger of deathing all day with my DW build of the time.
I kind of think its largely due to @DDuke's pts threads about it having a 10k tooltip(lol) convincing many sorcs (and non-sorc-mains) to try it over reach. Result is that its now an ability that's over-used.. A bit like Sloads, really. Not too bad on its own - but nasty in numbers.
Therefore both are viewed as the main causes of death nowadays.

I do tend to wonder, though, how many cage deaths would have resulted in an equally dead player if reach was used instead.. I suspect at least 70%. But reach is a crappy staff ability, not a super-sorc ability - so not cool to complain about :-)

Takes-No-Prisoner · July 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

I know, I just don't get why the forums didn't erupt pre-summerset. I was finger of deathing all day with my DW build of the time.
I kind of think its largely due to @DDuke's pts threads about it having a 10k tooltip(lol) convincing many sorcs (and non-sorc-mains) to try it over reach. Result is that its now an ability that's over-used.. A bit like Sloads, really. Not too bad on its own - but nasty in numbers.
Therefore both are viewed as the main causes of death nowadays.

I do tend to wonder, though, how many cage deaths would have resulted in an equally dead player if reach was used instead.. I suspect at least 70%. But reach is a crappy staff ability, not a super-sorc ability - so not cool to complain about :-)

I have no doubt you and many others knowledgeable about Sorc already had Touch-of-Death combos even before Summerset. People are just pointing at the new ability and thinking its over reaching. Reality is people aren't playing their own classes to their own strengths and just want to be carried on mechanics.

I do tend to wonder, though, how many cage deaths would have resulted in an equally dead player if reach was used instead.. I suspect at least 70%.

I mean Biro, these are the same people complaining. They would of died to either situation you presented. Hype and over-reaction breeds this kind of hysteria, but seeing as you're already a Sorc, you're all too familiar with hot takes on the class.

DDuke · July 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I don't understand.
Pre summerset, when it did not damage, nobody complained(and nobody used it)
So it must be the damage that's the problem, right?
So to get it to a place between then and now, where it is worth using but people don't complain, isn't a damage reduction the obvious change?
But then it IS a sorc' ability. They are always very binary - either not worth slotting or everyone cries about them.

From my perspective it's 2 problems people take issue with;

1. a Unblockable insta-gib kill set up using Meteor(precast)+Cage
2. a combo that can sometimes take a squishy target from 100-0% health, AKA touch of death combo, involving Mage's Fury/Implosion procs with other skills mixed in.

Reducing the damage would help with the second issue. Touch of death combos are ones with extremely little counter play and are really very powerful if only the procs go off right. And I've actually done a touch of death combo on a StamNB the other day. I caged him during a roll dodge, Frag+Fury and as he was CC breaking, he got hit by Cage damage and Fury proc AND Implosion proc activated just as I hit the guy with a LA. Devastating stuff.

I know, I just don't get why the forums didn't erupt pre-summerset. I was finger of deathing all day with my DW build of the time.
I kind of think its largely due to @DDuke's pts threads about it having a 10k tooltip(lol) convincing many sorcs (and non-sorc-mains) to try it over reach. Result is that its now an ability that's over-used.. A bit like Sloads, really. Not too bad on its own - but nasty in numbers.
Therefore both are viewed as the main causes of death nowadays.

I do tend to wonder, though, how many cage deaths would have resulted in an equally dead player if reach was used instead.. I suspect at least 70%. But reach is a crappy staff ability, not a super-sorc ability - so not cool to complain about :-)

Well, I wasn't wrong, was I? I said Rune Cage would be abused everywhere, I said people would complain about it having zero counterplay and what do you know... I was right.

Raising awareness of things tends to get them adjusted faster, much like with Miat's back in November 2017 when I made a thread that got over 100 agrees (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374249/zenimax-restrict-your-api/p1).

It got (finally) fixed in the next update.

Trying to keep broken things hidden to be abused in some small secret circles isn't the way to go about things.

Oh, and here's a bit of news: Reach deals less damage and can be dodged/blocked/reflected. The amount of players that died to Reach combos isn't even in the same universe as Rune Cage numbers.

Funny how people still try to defend broken [snip]

[edited for profanity bypass]

Waffennacht · July 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I don't understand.
Pre summerset, when it did not damage, nobody complained(and nobody used it)
So it must be the damage that's the problem, right?
So to get it to a place between then and now, where it is worth using but people don't complain, isn't a damage reduction the obvious change?
But then it IS a sorc' ability. They are always very binary - either not worth slotting or everyone cries about them.

From my perspective it's 2 problems people take issue with;

1. a Unblockable insta-gib kill set up using Meteor(precast)+Cage
2. a combo that can sometimes take a squishy target from 100-0% health, AKA touch of death combo, involving Mage's Fury/Implosion procs with other skills mixed in.

Reducing the damage would help with the second issue. Touch of death combos are ones with extremely little counter play and are really very powerful if only the procs go off right. And I've actually done a touch of death combo on a StamNB the other day. I caged him during a roll dodge, Frag+Fury and as he was CC breaking, he got hit by Cage damage and Fury proc AND Implosion proc activated just as I hit the guy with a LA. Devastating stuff.

I know, I just don't get why the forums didn't erupt pre-summerset. I was finger of deathing all day with my DW build of the time.
I kind of think its largely due to @DDuke's pts threads about it having a 10k tooltip(lol) convincing many sorcs (and non-sorc-mains) to try it over reach. Result is that its now an ability that's over-used.. A bit like Sloads, really. Not too bad on its own - but nasty in numbers.
Therefore both are viewed as the main causes of death nowadays.

I do tend to wonder, though, how many cage deaths would have resulted in an equally dead player if reach was used instead.. I suspect at least 70%. But reach is a crappy staff ability, not a super-sorc ability - so not cool to complain about :-)

Well, I wasn't wrong, was I? I said Rune Cage would be abused everywhere, I said people would complain about it having zero counterplay and what do you know... I was right.

Raising awareness of things tends to get them adjusted faster, much like with Miat's back in November 2017 when I made a thread that got over 100 agrees (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374249/zenimax-restrict-your-api/p1).

It got (finally) fixed in the next update.

Trying to keep broken things hidden to be abused in some small secret circles isn't the way to go about things.

Oh, and here's a bit of news: Reach deals less damage and can be dodged/blocked/reflected. The amount of players that died to Reach combos isn't even in the same universe as Rune Cage numbers.

Funny how people still try to defend broken [snip]

You're essentially upset with any stacking of unblockable undodgeable hard CC + big dmg. I would say delayed but that's moot because if either an attack or CC is delayed then it can be stacked. I.e. meteor + Petrify or Timestop + Dawnbreaker type interactions)

I do defend these interactions because most assuredly without them many builds would be unkillable. The amount of damage mitigation via things like block or Dodge roll, or the amount of healing from crits + vigor or panacea, makes unstacked and/or counterable damage meaningless.

Now with rune cage specifically, I can't help but feel it should have been both a reduction in damage and range, but I think they'll get there by the end of the PTS.

[edited to remove quote]

Biro123 · July 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I don't understand.
Pre summerset, when it did not damage, nobody complained(and nobody used it)
So it must be the damage that's the problem, right?
So to get it to a place between then and now, where it is worth using but people don't complain, isn't a damage reduction the obvious change?
But then it IS a sorc' ability. They are always very binary - either not worth slotting or everyone cries about them.

From my perspective it's 2 problems people take issue with;

1. a Unblockable insta-gib kill set up using Meteor(precast)+Cage
2. a combo that can sometimes take a squishy target from 100-0% health, AKA touch of death combo, involving Mage's Fury/Implosion procs with other skills mixed in.

Reducing the damage would help with the second issue. Touch of death combos are ones with extremely little counter play and are really very powerful if only the procs go off right. And I've actually done a touch of death combo on a StamNB the other day. I caged him during a roll dodge, Frag+Fury and as he was CC breaking, he got hit by Cage damage and Fury proc AND Implosion proc activated just as I hit the guy with a LA. Devastating stuff.

I know, I just don't get why the forums didn't erupt pre-summerset. I was finger of deathing all day with my DW build of the time.
I kind of think its largely due to @DDuke's pts threads about it having a 10k tooltip(lol) convincing many sorcs (and non-sorc-mains) to try it over reach. Result is that its now an ability that's over-used.. A bit like Sloads, really. Not too bad on its own - but nasty in numbers.
Therefore both are viewed as the main causes of death nowadays.

I do tend to wonder, though, how many cage deaths would have resulted in an equally dead player if reach was used instead.. I suspect at least 70%. But reach is a crappy staff ability, not a super-sorc ability - so not cool to complain about :-)

Well, I wasn't wrong, was I? I said Rune Cage would be abused everywhere, I said people would complain about it having zero counterplay and what do you know... I was right.

Raising awareness of things tends to get them adjusted faster, much like with Miat's back in November 2017 when I made a thread that got over 100 agrees (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374249/zenimax-restrict-your-api/p1).

It got (finally) fixed in the next update.

Trying to keep broken things hidden to be abused in some small secret circles isn't the way to go about things.

Oh, and here's a bit of news: Reach deals less damage and can be dodged/blocked/reflected. The amount of players that died to Reach combos isn't even in the same universe as Rune Cage numbers.

Funny how people still try to defend broken [snip]

I'm defending nothing. Just observing human nature. Fwiw, I'm not even running cage anymore (unlike last patch).. And yes, most deaths in Cyro come from getting zerged, and during that getting hit with a cc while trying to escape. Your medium builds may feel cage more, but not all builds rely on dodge to that degree, and so plenty get caught by reach.. It's those people who cage makes little difference to, and they are the majority.

Honestly, how was it fine last patch, but so broken this patch that making it worse than last patch is the solution? There's gotta be some human nature stuff going on there?

[edited to remove quote]

DDuke · July 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I don't understand.
Pre summerset, when it did not damage, nobody complained(and nobody used it)
So it must be the damage that's the problem, right?
So to get it to a place between then and now, where it is worth using but people don't complain, isn't a damage reduction the obvious change?
But then it IS a sorc' ability. They are always very binary - either not worth slotting or everyone cries about them.

From my perspective it's 2 problems people take issue with;

1. a Unblockable insta-gib kill set up using Meteor(precast)+Cage
2. a combo that can sometimes take a squishy target from 100-0% health, AKA touch of death combo, involving Mage's Fury/Implosion procs with other skills mixed in.

Reducing the damage would help with the second issue. Touch of death combos are ones with extremely little counter play and are really very powerful if only the procs go off right. And I've actually done a touch of death combo on a StamNB the other day. I caged him during a roll dodge, Frag+Fury and as he was CC breaking, he got hit by Cage damage and Fury proc AND Implosion proc activated just as I hit the guy with a LA. Devastating stuff.

I know, I just don't get why the forums didn't erupt pre-summerset. I was finger of deathing all day with my DW build of the time.
I kind of think its largely due to @DDuke's pts threads about it having a 10k tooltip(lol) convincing many sorcs (and non-sorc-mains) to try it over reach. Result is that its now an ability that's over-used.. A bit like Sloads, really. Not too bad on its own - but nasty in numbers.
Therefore both are viewed as the main causes of death nowadays.

I do tend to wonder, though, how many cage deaths would have resulted in an equally dead player if reach was used instead.. I suspect at least 70%. But reach is a crappy staff ability, not a super-sorc ability - so not cool to complain about :-)

Well, I wasn't wrong, was I? I said Rune Cage would be abused everywhere, I said people would complain about it having zero counterplay and what do you know... I was right.

Raising awareness of things tends to get them adjusted faster, much like with Miat's back in November 2017 when I made a thread that got over 100 agrees (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374249/zenimax-restrict-your-api/p1).

It got (finally) fixed in the next update.

Trying to keep broken things hidden to be abused in some small secret circles isn't the way to go about things.

Oh, and here's a bit of news: Reach deals less damage and can be dodged/blocked/reflected. The amount of players that died to Reach combos isn't even in the same universe as Rune Cage numbers.

Funny how people still try to defend broken [snip]

I'm defending nothing. Just observing human nature. Fwiw, I'm not even running cage anymore (unlike last patch).. And yes, most deaths in Cyro come from getting zerged, and during that getting hit with a cc while trying to escape. Your medium builds may feel cage more, but not all builds rely on dodge to that degree, and so plenty get caught by reach.. It's those people who cage makes little difference to, and they are the majority.

Honestly, how was it fine last patch, but so broken this patch that making it worse than last patch is the solution? There's gotta be some human nature stuff going on there?

By last patch you mean Dragon Bones?

It not having a 8-10k tooltip might have something to do with that.

That's like if Snipe suddenly got an 80% increase on tooltip (equivalent of Rune Cage damage) some patch and people started asking "hmm, why is this so broken now?"

[edited to remove quote]

Feanor · July 2018

@DDuke

4.1.0 on PTS has a damage reduction by 20%. And already people are complaining that the issue isn’t the damage now but the stun. So, like always, it’s about trashing the skill. It would be more honest to say at least that Sorc should have no class CC outside Bolt Escape. Everything else is agenda.

Still waiting for the outcry on the other CCs in game that are not blockable and dodgeable.

Vahrokh · July 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I don't understand.
Pre summerset, when it did not damage, nobody complained(and nobody used it)
So it must be the damage that's the problem, right?
So to get it to a place between then and now, where it is worth using but people don't complain, isn't a damage reduction the obvious change?
But then it IS a sorc' ability. They are always very binary - either not worth slotting or everyone cries about them.

From my perspective it's 2 problems people take issue with;

1. a Unblockable insta-gib kill set up using Meteor(precast)+Cage
2. a combo that can sometimes take a squishy target from 100-0% health, AKA touch of death combo, involving Mage's Fury/Implosion procs with other skills mixed in.

Reducing the damage would help with the second issue. Touch of death combos are ones with extremely little counter play and are really very powerful if only the procs go off right. And I've actually done a touch of death combo on a StamNB the other day. I caged him during a roll dodge, Frag+Fury and as he was CC breaking, he got hit by Cage damage and Fury proc AND Implosion proc activated just as I hit the guy with a LA. Devastating stuff.

I know, I just don't get why the forums didn't erupt pre-summerset. I was finger of deathing all day with my DW build of the time.
I kind of think its largely due to @DDuke's pts threads about it having a 10k tooltip(lol) convincing many sorcs (and non-sorc-mains) to try it over reach. Result is that its now an ability that's over-used.. A bit like Sloads, really. Not too bad on its own - but nasty in numbers.
Therefore both are viewed as the main causes of death nowadays.

I do tend to wonder, though, how many cage deaths would have resulted in an equally dead player if reach was used instead.. I suspect at least 70%. But reach is a crappy staff ability, not a super-sorc ability - so not cool to complain about :-)

Well, I wasn't wrong, was I? I said Rune Cage would be abused everywhere, I said people would complain about it having zero counterplay and what do you know... I was right.

Raising awareness of things tends to get them adjusted faster, much like with Miat's back in November 2017 when I made a thread that got over 100 agrees (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374249/zenimax-restrict-your-api/p1).

It got (finally) fixed in the next update.

Trying to keep broken things hidden to be abused in some small secret circles isn't the way to go about things.

Oh, and here's a bit of news: Reach deals less damage and can be dodged/blocked/reflected. The amount of players that died to Reach combos isn't even in the same universe as Rune Cage numbers.

Funny how people still try to defend broken [snip]

Reach combos were "the go to" way to kill people before Rune Cage. So, the amount of players that died to that, was the same.

Only difference, it's WAY easier to demand a nerf on a class unique ability (Crystal Frags, Hardened War, pets, Sorc finisher...) than on a shared ability. A shared ability can be used by everyone and it demonstrates YOU are the problem, not the ability.

[edited to remove quote]

Vahrokh · July 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

4.1.0 on PTS has a damage reduction by 20%. And already people are complaining that the issue isn’t the damage now but the stun. So, like always, it’s about trashing the skill. It would be more honest to say at least that Sorc should have no class CC outside Bolt Escape. Everything else is agenda.

Still waiting for the outcry on the other CCs in game that are not blockable and dodgeable.

Sorcs should either be banned from PvP or only be allowed light attacks. Only so, our Sith lords would concede that "peace and order will be restored". Others would still complain that those light attacks can be fired from range (grossly OP, you know), whereas magsorcs should only be allowed to fire from 5m range tops.

DDuke · July 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

4.1.0 on PTS has a damage reduction by 20%. And already people are complaining that the issue isn’t the damage now but the stun. So, like always, it’s about trashing the skill. It would be more honest to say at least that Sorc should have no class CC outside Bolt Escape. Everything else is agenda.

Still waiting for the outcry on the other CCs in game that are not blockable and dodgeable.

It's not about trashing the skill for me, it's about making it comparable with other CCs in the game in terms of power level.

Even after the 20% reduction to damage, it still deals more damage than Fossilize with over 4 times the range and a convenient delay to line it up with other burst abilities.

Using such a powerful undodgeable/unblockable CC needs to come at a significant cost of burst compared to other ranged CC options (i.e. Reach) - it still does not.

The damage needs to go entirely (or get turned into a DoT or something manageable), period.

Feanor · July 2018

@DDuke

So, a revert to pre-Summerset. Lining up the burst with a well timed RC was possible ever since Clockwork City, most people just preferred having one more bar slot and ran Reach. I'd like a DoT - Sorc hasn't one that's viable in PvP anyway. But still, the point about Mass Hysteria and Fossilize remains. It's not about range (except for Xv1), it's about the synergy with the toolkit.

DDuke · July 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

So, a revert to pre-Summerset. Lining up the burst with a well timed RC was possible ever since Clockwork City, most people just preferred having one more bar slot and ran Reach. I'd like a DoT - Sorc hasn't one that's viable in PvP anyway. But still, the point about Mass Hysteria and Fossilize remains. It's not about range (except for Xv1), it's about the synergy with the toolkit.

I don't think Rune Cage was a problem in CWC or Dragon Bones; getting hit by a Rune Cage combo always meant taking less damage than you would've taken from Reach combo which balanced out the "undodgeable/blockable" part.

Appropriate risk vs reward was in place for sorc burst.

Feanor · July 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

So, a revert to pre-Summerset. Lining up the burst with a well timed RC was possible ever since Clockwork City, most people just preferred having one more bar slot and ran Reach. I'd like a DoT - Sorc hasn't one that's viable in PvP anyway. But still, the point about Mass Hysteria and Fossilize remains. It's not about range (except for Xv1), it's about the synergy with the toolkit.

I don't think Rune Cage was a problem in CWC or Dragon Bones; getting hit by a Rune Cage combo always meant taking less damage than you would've taken from Reach combo which balanced out the "undodgeable/blockable" part.

Appropriate risk vs reward was in place for sorc burst.

Well that's you. After the 20% damage nerf people are complaining specifically about the CC part though.

Killset · July 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I don't understand.
Pre summerset, when it did not damage, nobody complained(and nobody used it)
So it must be the damage that's the problem, right?
So to get it to a place between then and now, where it is worth using but people don't complain, isn't a damage reduction the obvious change?
But then it IS a sorc' ability. They are always very binary - either not worth slotting or everyone cries about them.

From my perspective it's 2 problems people take issue with;

1. a Unblockable insta-gib kill set up using Meteor(precast)+Cage
2. a combo that can sometimes take a squishy target from 100-0% health, AKA touch of death combo, involving Mage's Fury/Implosion procs with other skills mixed in.

Reducing the damage would help with the second issue. Touch of death combos are ones with extremely little counter play and are really very powerful if only the procs go off right. And I've actually done a touch of death combo on a StamNB the other day. I caged him during a roll dodge, Frag+Fury and as he was CC breaking, he got hit by Cage damage and Fury proc AND Implosion proc activated just as I hit the guy with a LA. Devastating stuff.

I know, I just don't get why the forums didn't erupt pre-summerset. I was finger of deathing all day with my DW build of the time.
I kind of think its largely due to @DDuke's pts threads about it having a 10k tooltip(lol) convincing many sorcs (and non-sorc-mains) to try it over reach. Result is that its now an ability that's over-used.. A bit like Sloads, really. Not too bad on its own - but nasty in numbers.
Therefore both are viewed as the main causes of death nowadays.

I do tend to wonder, though, how many cage deaths would have resulted in an equally dead player if reach was used instead.. I suspect at least 70%. But reach is a crappy staff ability, not a super-sorc ability - so not cool to complain about :-)

Well, I wasn't wrong, was I? I said Rune Cage would be abused everywhere, I said people would complain about it having zero counterplay and what do you know... I was right.

Raising awareness of things tends to get them adjusted faster, much like with Miat's back in November 2017 when I made a thread that got over 100 agrees (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374249/zenimax-restrict-your-api/p1).

It got (finally) fixed in the next update.

Trying to keep broken things hidden to be abused in some small secret circles isn't the way to go about things.

Oh, and here's a bit of news: Reach deals less damage and can be dodged/blocked/reflected. The amount of players that died to Reach combos isn't even in the same universe as Rune Cage numbers.

Funny how people still try to defend broken [snip]

I'm defending nothing. Just observing human nature. Fwiw, I'm not even running cage anymore (unlike last patch).. And yes, most deaths in Cyro come from getting zerged, and during that getting hit with a cc while trying to escape. Your medium builds may feel cage more, but not all builds rely on dodge to that degree, and so plenty get caught by reach.. It's those people who cage makes little difference to, and they are the majority.

Honestly, how was it fine last patch, but so broken this patch that making it worse than last patch is the solution? There's gotta be some human nature stuff going on there?

Summerset saw sorcs buffed with the addition to staffs counting as two set pieces and light/heavy attack damages being buffed. The damage to Rune cage was just the straw that broke the camels back. And yes I know other classes saw the same buffs but it hit a whole new level on Sorc with the damage being added to the front end of an already super strong CC.

[edited to remove quote]

Killset · July 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@Killset

Just leaving that here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5078280/#Comment_5078280

Interesting... It’s as if everyone knew what would happen.

Vahrokh · July 2018

Killset wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

I don't understand.
Pre summerset, when it did not damage, nobody complained(and nobody used it)
So it must be the damage that's the problem, right?
So to get it to a place between then and now, where it is worth using but people don't complain, isn't a damage reduction the obvious change?
But then it IS a sorc' ability. They are always very binary - either not worth slotting or everyone cries about them.

From my perspective it's 2 problems people take issue with;

1. a Unblockable insta-gib kill set up using Meteor(precast)+Cage
2. a combo that can sometimes take a squishy target from 100-0% health, AKA touch of death combo, involving Mage's Fury/Implosion procs with other skills mixed in.

Reducing the damage would help with the second issue. Touch of death combos are ones with extremely little counter play and are really very powerful if only the procs go off right. And I've actually done a touch of death combo on a StamNB the other day. I caged him during a roll dodge, Frag+Fury and as he was CC breaking, he got hit by Cage damage and Fury proc AND Implosion proc activated just as I hit the guy with a LA. Devastating stuff.

I know, I just don't get why the forums didn't erupt pre-summerset. I was finger of deathing all day with my DW build of the time.
I kind of think its largely due to @DDuke's pts threads about it having a 10k tooltip(lol) convincing many sorcs (and non-sorc-mains) to try it over reach. Result is that its now an ability that's over-used.. A bit like Sloads, really. Not too bad on its own - but nasty in numbers.
Therefore both are viewed as the main causes of death nowadays.

I do tend to wonder, though, how many cage deaths would have resulted in an equally dead player if reach was used instead.. I suspect at least 70%. But reach is a crappy staff ability, not a super-sorc ability - so not cool to complain about :-)

Well, I wasn't wrong, was I? I said Rune Cage would be abused everywhere, I said people would complain about it having zero counterplay and what do you know... I was right.

Raising awareness of things tends to get them adjusted faster, much like with Miat's back in November 2017 when I made a thread that got over 100 agrees (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374249/zenimax-restrict-your-api/p1).

It got (finally) fixed in the next update.

Trying to keep broken things hidden to be abused in some small secret circles isn't the way to go about things.

Oh, and here's a bit of news: Reach deals less damage and can be dodged/blocked/reflected. The amount of players that died to Reach combos isn't even in the same universe as Rune Cage numbers.

Funny how people still try to defend broken [snip]

I'm defending nothing. Just observing human nature. Fwiw, I'm not even running cage anymore (unlike last patch).. And yes, most deaths in Cyro come from getting zerged, and during that getting hit with a cc while trying to escape. Your medium builds may feel cage more, but not all builds rely on dodge to that degree, and so plenty get caught by reach.. It's those people who cage makes little difference to, and they are the majority.

Honestly, how was it fine last patch, but so broken this patch that making it worse than last patch is the solution? There's gotta be some human nature stuff going on there?

Summerset saw sorcs everyone buffed with the addition to staffs counting as two set pieces and light/heavy attack damages being buffed.

Fixed.

Like we don't have magblades getting all the same benefits while still being a better magsorc than a magsorc.

[edited to remove quote]

ChiknAriseMcFro · July 2018

What they should do is make Deathmatch BGs strictly FFA for a while and see what happens. Force each player to fend for themselves rather than relying on kills via cc chains from their teammates. From the perspective of a magblade, comparing what pitiful easily avoidable CC I have access to to the rune cage of Death combo I encounter is rediculous. 9/10 times Me v Sorc is I end up pinned down and blown up before I have time to react. I actually came looking for how we're supposed to break rune cage's CC because break free sure as hell ain't working even when I'm full on stamina. The following pic is an example of the typical combo. Killed me in a flash. Tbh though, rune cage wouldn't be so bad if break free actually did what it's supposed to. Currently when I get hit with it I'm forced to eat the whole duration which is the real problem. The damage is crap. It all boils down to game stability. Bar Swap boss is OP.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AsymbeCCautXlshtcg_ZktioTLU_rQ