Dummy Parses are Life

BNOC · July 2018

Arciris wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with some competition.
There nothing wrong with some achievements being attainable only by a few, who put the time and effort to it.
Hard modes/speed and no death runs exist for that reason.
There are also leader boards, "permanents", weekly...

But there is something really wrong when the "above average" player - and I am not talking about the guy that wants to be a stam dps with a resto staff or whatever - does less than half the DPS than the elite guy, all while having researched for a good build, put the time and effort to grind for the gear for it, upgraded that gear to max level (which also requires time), having a good knowledge of the game and even a good "raid awareness" .

Yes, there should be a difference between an excellent player and a "above average" good player, but not in the magnitude that the game is seeing right now.
This can not be healthy for the game at all.
ESO used to have a nice and helping community but at this point the level of toxicity is rising way too fast.

If I was developing this game, I would put enrage mechanics on Bosses when they are burned faster than intended (and not the other way around). Right now what we see is excellent players skipping the mechanics that were meant to challenge them, due to the abnormal levels of DPS that are achieved and thus clearing the content designed for them on release day.
This is not a normal situation and needs to be addressed asap, IMHO.

If you punish players for being good you'll see what's left of the end-game trial community disappear. Also if you narrow the skill gap too much people will also leave, some people actually like the challenge.

I know people whine about toxicity but I've almost never see it myself and I spent most of my time in-game running vet trials.

Afraid of a challenge, are you?

I wasn't proposing to punish players but rather to offer them new and exciting challenges.
Clearing "the hardest content of the game" on release day is not a normal situation: it didn't happened with vMA nor with vMOL for example.
Players who successfully complete that level of challenge with no death - an enraged boss due to very high dps numbers - should get a shiny tittle and reward (skin, pet, mount, whatever): It could be "insert Boss name here" Crusher (or whatever other fancy name).
It just adds another tier of difficulty, with a different approach to what difficult and challenging means.

Lastly, i won't see any low end of the spectrum players leave just because there's a closer gap between players than the absurd gigantic gap that exists currently. The challenge and drive to push to be better will still be here, even if it is to gain "only" 5k dps. Just look at min/maxing guys pushing to get that extra 0.3% more dps.

I do understand that there is an elite protecting their privileges and exclusivity, but, no worries, they'll still have their edge no matter what. It'just doesn't have to be absolutely crushing - because that's bad for the game.

What are you talking about 'challenge'? If you can run 100m in 10s, what's challenging about doing it in 15s? There is literally NO challenge there - That's casual.
The challenge would be to have an increased version of hard-mode - But then the same players you're trying to make this 'fair (lol)' for, would complain they can't do it and it's not fair as everyone in this game feels they are entitled to complete and compete.

I also don't think you understand enrage mechanics - That usually means a raid-wide-wipe, so you want to re-invent the wheel at every point.

Content in this game is completed considerably sooner than on comparable games and that's without considering day 1 completes (becoming common on ESO).

People being better for you isn't bad for the game, it gives you something to work towards - It opens your eyes to the possibilities and strategies available and is often how lower-tier runs are figured out and completed in the first place.

Jaimeh · July 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Changes to the game have increased the dps ceiling, but content hasn’t changed in difficulty with player changes, just the belief that it has. I’m guilty of it too. I’ve spent hours in front of the dummy, hitting high numbers after countless potions and an absurd amount of time. For what? There is little if any enjoyment in doing so, but end-game guilds now require those top % numbers for you to actually participate. I’ve drawn more and more away from ESO as a large amount of content is devolved to FarmVille. In one guild I’m in, in addition to the top numbers, you have to use very specific gear to join.

I've been seeing guilds asking for higher and higher parses, and increasing their requirements to things like 'minimum 40k damage', which I personally find really disconcerting. There is a logic to having good overall dps in a group, because it can facilllitate the fights, but unless there is a specific dps check mechanic, then there shouldn't be a problem. I think the reason why the eng-game community is going towards that direction is because the latest trials have a lot of punishing mechanics, and so they want high dps to safeguard against poor execution of them, and so on. However, it has always been my firm belief, that if group coordination is good, and if every member is on the same page regarding mechanics, their positioning, their tasks, etc., at any moment, then you you don't really need anything higher than 25-30k to complete a given content successfully. And this is coming from someone who has also spent hours in front of the target skeleton, though in my case, it's more to do with satisfying my own need to see how far I can push myself and improve, than to use it as a run entry ticket. In fact I've left guilds which raised their requirements, even when I could meet them, because I don't think it's the way to go about when wanting to improve raid quality.

nnargun · July 2018

Jaimeh wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Changes to the game have increased the dps ceiling, but content hasn’t changed in difficulty with player changes, just the belief that it has. I’m guilty of it too. I’ve spent hours in front of the dummy, hitting high numbers after countless potions and an absurd amount of time. For what? There is little if any enjoyment in doing so, but end-game guilds now require those top % numbers for you to actually participate. I’ve drawn more and more away from ESO as a large amount of content is devolved to FarmVille. In one guild I’m in, in addition to the top numbers, you have to use very specific gear to join.

I've been seeing guilds asking for higher and higher parses, and increasing their requirements to things like 'minimum 40k damage', which I personally find really disconcerting. There is a logic to having good overall dps in a group, because it can facilllitate the fights, but unless there is a specific dps check mechanic, then there shouldn't be a problem. I think the reason why the eng-game community is going towards that direction is because the latest trials have a lot of punishing mechanics, and so they want high dps to safeguard against poor execution of them, and so on. However, it has always been my firm belief, that if group coordination is good, and if every member is on the same page regarding mechanics, their positioning, their tasks, etc., at any moment, then you you don't really need anything higher than 25-30k to complete a given content successfully. And this is coming from someone who has also spent hours in front of the target skeleton, though in my case, it's more to do with satisfying my own need to see how far I can push myself and improve, than to use it as a run entry ticket. In fact I've left guilds which raised their requirements, even when I could meet them, because I don't think it's the way to go about when wanting to improve raid quality.

But there is no problem. As soon as the requirements are too high to fill the slots, raid leaders will have to adjust their expectations. Or what am I not getting here? There are only so many slots to fill. If you want more slots and less requirements you gotta build your own raid group. It's like everywhere in competetive sports and such. People build teams and play with people who are on about the same level as them. Why would 7 DDs who can pull 40k accept that the potential 8th guy can only pull 30k while another guy with 40k is also waiting in line? Would you? And we are not talking about guildies who have long known each other and know how they perform in a trial and such. When raid leaders ask for such numbers they are addressing people whom they know absolutely nothing of - strangers whose only selling point are the numbers. Any other way of determining whom you wanna accept or not either doesn't make much sense or requires too much effort.

edit: One more thought. Low DPS also shows a certain lack of either effort or understanding a player is putting into the game. The level of dedication and effort it needs to complete vAS+2, for instance, is massive though.
Or like why do you never see a Flawless Conquerer with low DPS even though anybody can attempt it?

Arciris · July 2018

@nnargun

I often read posts of people (at max CP) who go right to Alcast weabsite, pick up a build, grind for the gear and upgrade to gold and train his rotation on a dummy complaining they can't break 25k or 30k while those builds easily break 50k, in Alcast's hands.
That is a massive gap imo.

Not even starting on people who aren't max CP yet and/or not fully geared.
I'm a few CP short from 1k on NA server (because i spend most of my time in housing related stuff lately)

But I've been starting to play on PC EU as well. On PC EU, i'm 330+CP and since the character is new, I've been doing dungeons (Vet and normal) with PUGs to level undaunted.
For faster queues I go in as a tank, a khajiit Templar with greens, blues and purples Green Pact and Plague Doctor that i picked along the way, as well as Malubeth because, well, that was the first full monster set i was able to complete.
And despite that miserable setup, I can swear more than half the time I'm the highest DD in the group lol. This is not normal.
The game wasn't like that a few years ago. The power creep is not only real, but it doesn't affect equally the population., as it is far more noticeable on the top end while almost non consequent on the lower tier.

Arciris · July 2018

BNOC wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with some competition.
There nothing wrong with some achievements being attainable only by a few, who put the time and effort to it.
Hard modes/speed and no death runs exist for that reason.
There are also leader boards, "permanents", weekly...

But there is something really wrong when the "above average" player - and I am not talking about the guy that wants to be a stam dps with a resto staff or whatever - does less than half the DPS than the elite guy, all while having researched for a good build, put the time and effort to grind for the gear for it, upgraded that gear to max level (which also requires time), having a good knowledge of the game and even a good "raid awareness" .

Yes, there should be a difference between an excellent player and a "above average" good player, but not in the magnitude that the game is seeing right now.
This can not be healthy for the game at all.
ESO used to have a nice and helping community but at this point the level of toxicity is rising way too fast.

If I was developing this game, I would put enrage mechanics on Bosses when they are burned faster than intended (and not the other way around). Right now what we see is excellent players skipping the mechanics that were meant to challenge them, due to the abnormal levels of DPS that are achieved and thus clearing the content designed for them on release day.
This is not a normal situation and needs to be addressed asap, IMHO.

If you punish players for being good you'll see what's left of the end-game trial community disappear. Also if you narrow the skill gap too much people will also leave, some people actually like the challenge.

I know people whine about toxicity but I've almost never see it myself and I spent most of my time in-game running vet trials.

Afraid of a challenge, are you?

I wasn't proposing to punish players but rather to offer them new and exciting challenges.
Clearing "the hardest content of the game" on release day is not a normal situation: it didn't happened with vMA nor with vMOL for example.
Players who successfully complete that level of challenge with no death - an enraged boss due to very high dps numbers - should get a shiny tittle and reward (skin, pet, mount, whatever): It could be "insert Boss name here" Crusher (or whatever other fancy name).
It just adds another tier of difficulty, with a different approach to what difficult and challenging means.

Lastly, i won't see any low end of the spectrum players leave just because there's a closer gap between players than the absurd gigantic gap that exists currently. The challenge and drive to push to be better will still be here, even if it is to gain "only" 5k dps. Just look at min/maxing guys pushing to get that extra 0.3% more dps.

I do understand that there is an elite protecting their privileges and exclusivity, but, no worries, they'll still have their edge no matter what. It'just doesn't have to be absolutely crushing - because that's bad for the game.

What are you talking about 'challenge'? If you can run 100m in 10s, what's challenging about doing it in 15s? There is literally NO challenge there - That's casual.
The challenge would be to have an increased version of hard-mode - But then the same players you're trying to make this 'fair (lol)' for, would complain they can't do it and it's not fair as everyone in this game feels they are entitled to complete and compete.

I also don't think you understand enrage mechanics - That usually means a raid-wide-wipe, so you want to re-invent the wheel at every point.

Content in this game is completed considerably sooner than on comparable games and that's without considering day 1 completes (becoming common on ESO).

People being better for you isn't bad for the game, it gives you something to work towards - It opens your eyes to the possibilities and strategies available and is often how lower-tier runs are figured out and completed in the first place.

In Athleticism, there's actually a modality called "Hurdles" where obstacles are added to those 100m. Just an example.

And "Enraged" mechanics do not have to mean a guaranteed wipe, I'm sure Devs could work something out there.

As you pointed, "content in this game is completed considerably sooner than on comparable games and that's without considering day 1 completes (becoming common on ESO)." This, I repeat, is not normal and should be addressed in some way. Not saying mine is better but since I'm a bit tired of nerfs, well...

Also, there's always going to be a bigger fish, in any situation. It just doesn't have to be a whale swimming among sardines lol.

Anotherone773 · July 2018

You can do all content in this game with 20-25k dps. So i just ignore people who say you need more or meta builds or to min/max stuff. They obviously dont know what they are talking about. They might need to do 40k or 50k to complete content...i can complete it with a group that does 20-25k dps though.

Also dummy parses are a joke. I cant believe people seriously think a dummy parse shows any other ability except that you know how to push buttons in a certain order. You know what else shows you know how to push buttons in a certain order? Typing.

nnargun · July 2018

Arciris wrote: »

@nnargun

I often read posts of people (at max CP) who go right to Alcast weabsite, pick up a build, grind for the gear and upgrade to gold and train his rotation on a dummy complaining they can't break 25k or 30k while those builds easily break 50k, in Alcast's hands.
That is a massive gap imo.

Not even starting on people who aren't max CP yet and/or not fully geared.
I'm a few CP short from 1k on NA server (because i spend most of my time in housing related stuff lately)

But I've been starting to play on PC EU as well. On PC EU, i'm 330+CP and since the character is new, I've been doing dungeons (Vet and normal) with PUGs to level undaunted.
For faster queues I go in as a tank, a khajiit Templar with greens, blues and purples Green Pact and Plague Doctor that i picked along the way, as well as Malubeth because, well, that was the first full monster set i was able to complete.
And despite that miserable setup, I can swear more than half the time I'm the highest DD in the group lol. This is not normal.
The game wasn't like that a few years ago. The power creep is not only real, but it doesn't affect equally the population., as it is far more noticeable on the top end while almost non consequent on the lower tier.

Alcast states on his website that he uses a certain setup for youtube parses with lover mundus and so on. Those parses are considered cheese parses and have no relevance here. Also your statement is a bit exaggerated. Let's take his magblade build Azure for instance. He does 41k with it using lover, same parse with apprentice or shadow would have yielded more like 40k. Also replace beast trap with channeled acceleration and it's certainly not much more than 39k anymore.
When I first picked up magblade after playing only heavy attack petsorc I was absolutely horrible at it and yet I started with about 30k on 3mil. I was quickly able to increase that to about 35k and from there it got really really difficult. That is pretty much exactly the 5k difference you were talking about. I can pull 41k without any cheese on 6mil now but you don't wanna know how many hours and potions it cost me to get those last 5-6k DPS. And that is why I asked you for specific examples. I think it works exactly as you said you wanted it to work. For me at least and I am not a super fast learner in video games in general.
Granted you have all the BiS gear and are CP capped, 30k is easily doable with a sloppy static rotation, 35k requires some adjustments and that you actually shoot your spectral bow every once in a while, 40k (self-buffed, no cheese) takes hours and hours of grinding the dummy. The difference between 35k and 40k effort wise is magnitudes higher than the difference between 30k and 35k. Of course then you can also use Zaan, get someone to cast ele drain for you and use double inner light + beast trap and do >45k DPS. But yeah, you see what I mean.
Not saying everything that worked for me works for everybody but I can assure you that I'm not much more than an average player in general.

Beardimus · July 2018

Yep, hence i went PvP

clv · July 2018

you been kicked from raid before haven't you rofl

or: "WAHH WAHH WHY WONT GROUPS CARRY ME THROUGH TRIALS"

BadSerpico · July 2018

In most fights not all since there are some Dps check fights, it’s still possible to complete. Not saying elitists or whatever term you want to insert there are players who just burn through mechanics and in turn Crap on groups/players who haven’t reached that level yet who must do the mechanics. That’s the only thing I have seen and it’s bothersome to say the least when not constructive.

BaneOfBattler · July 2018

nnargun wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

BaneOfBattler wrote: »

You are brave by speaking by the majority of players who just play for fun even doing vets and endgame stuff.

This message you created was directed towards the most toxic and manipulable by 3rd party opinions/influencers/hype/minmaxers/tryhards. Leading to a no brain community guided by those mentioned before. I'm sorry if i offend someone, just speaking facts.

The parse thing has become as popular as back in the day of wotlk gearscore addon; or day present neverwinter gearscore in game attribute measurement.

The dps parses trend has to go, it will only make us go somewhere we wont like, and then these tryharders with their parses will leave the game because of a new grind/farming items/worse rng could happen because of so many players reaching so much dps will just tell devs to increase the "challenge" and thus forcing other players with lives and jobs to do x task for x time. Simply because some guys wanted to make the vet content easy.

Sometimes the best is not always the best, and sometimes easy is not always fun.

Parsing has to go, practicing in a mmo is ridiculous, dummies doesnt make you dodge red areas, doesnt hit u. Your dps parse is a self reassuring tool for the insecure dps, and it has to go. Period.

Thank you for also seeing the absurdity about “practicing.” Unless you’re a professional gamer making money, the idea of someone practicing in a video game otherwise is just sad. Do people go on Call of Duty and sit at the firing range all day? Playing the game IS practicing. In Destiny, you go on missions and such where you kill enemies and complete the goal. Then, you go on the raid events and do the same thing. You’re prepared for this part of the game because in plahing the game, you have prepared.

RNG is insidious. Theorycrafters release what’s BiS, and everyone then clamors for this rare much sought after gear. The game then BECOMES a never ending farm. And that plays right into developers hands.

If you want to make dummy parses value added, make them challenging. The dummy is a combat dummy, and you have to dodge AoE’s, direct damage, and snare like effects. Add in a couple virtual bodies around that you need to rez in a certain amount of time or you fail. In between all this movement/blocking/rezzing, you dps the dummy. At the end of a timer, you’re given a score -based on how many attacks you avoided, how fast you rezzed, how much damage you did. Think akin to the Xmen Danger Room. THEN you’d actually be practicing, while playing something at least ‘resembling’ the game.

You know, noone forces you to practice by doing dummy parses. You have all the freedom to practice or not to practice as much as you want on either the dummy or actual bosses. Noone cares how you do it as long as you get the job done about as well as the other 7 DDs you wanna play with.
Requesting to remove dummies from the game because it can give people an edge who actually wanna put effort and time into parsing is the real absurdity here. Not that you are given the option to practice that way.

edit: And if you actually think that dummy parses have no real value because no mechanics then what exactly is your problem? Just leave us moronic dummy parsers alone and do your real and challenging training on whatever mechanically loaded fight you want.
What you describe there, a dummy that moves and does mechanics and after beating it you get a score based on speed and so on, it's called vMA.

No.

Joker99 · July 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

You can do all content in this game with 20-25k dps. So i just ignore people who say you need more or meta builds or to min/max stuff. They obviously dont know what they are talking about. They might need to do 40k or 50k to complete content...i can complete it with a group that does 20-25k dps though.

Also dummy parses are a joke. I cant believe people seriously think a dummy parse shows any other ability except that you know how to push buttons in a certain order. You know what else shows you know how to push buttons in a certain order? Typing.

First I'd like to see how you complete vAS HM or vMoL HM with a group dps averaging 160k-200k, seriously, this argument is pretty stupid, the fact that people did complete it in the past with much lower dps isn't an argument either, because the people that completed it then were top players not average people, and while they maybe hit 30k back then, that was today's equivalent of 50k.
If we consider true the fact that you can complete the aformentioned HMs with 20-25k dps then may I ask, have you done them all? If your answer is yes then I applaud you, but if your answer is no then may I ask why? People have to realise that there's more to Endgame PvE and bringing more dps than what's required is not going to hurt anyone, and it means less time dealing with mechanics, which in itself means less deaths to mechanics. I can never understand why people choose to throttle themselves.

Secondly, dummy parses are most definitely not a joke, if you lack the ability to push buttons in a certain order in front of a dummy then you most definitely won't do it on a boss fight, suddenly that group of people averaging 20-25k on dummy has a group dps of around 110k on Rakkat HM. This argument is again what lazy people tell themselves because they don't want to spend 45 mins each day practicing.

LiquidPony · July 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

BaneOfBattler wrote: »

You are brave by speaking by the majority of players who just play for fun even doing vets and endgame stuff.

This message you created was directed towards the most toxic and manipulable by 3rd party opinions/influencers/hype/minmaxers/tryhards. Leading to a no brain community guided by those mentioned before. I'm sorry if i offend someone, just speaking facts.

The parse thing has become as popular as back in the day of wotlk gearscore addon; or day present neverwinter gearscore in game attribute measurement.

The dps parses trend has to go, it will only make us go somewhere we wont like, and then these tryharders with their parses will leave the game because of a new grind/farming items/worse rng could happen because of so many players reaching so much dps will just tell devs to increase the "challenge" and thus forcing other players with lives and jobs to do x task for x time. Simply because some guys wanted to make the vet content easy.

Sometimes the best is not always the best, and sometimes easy is not always fun.

Parsing has to go, practicing in a mmo is ridiculous, dummies doesnt make you dodge red areas, doesnt hit u. Your dps parse is a self reassuring tool for the insecure dps, and it has to go. Period.

Thank you for also seeing the absurdity about “practicing.” Unless you’re a professional gamer making money, the idea of someone practicing in a video game otherwise is just sad. Do people go on Call of Duty and sit at the firing range all day? Playing the game IS practicing. In Destiny, you go on missions and such where you kill enemies and complete the goal. Then, you go on the raid events and do the same thing. You’re prepared for this part of the game because in plahing the game, you have prepared.

RNG is insidious. Theorycrafters release what’s BiS, and everyone then clamors for this rare much sought after gear. The game then BECOMES a never ending farm. And that plays right into developers hands.

If you want to make dummy parses value added, make them challenging. The dummy is a combat dummy, and you have to dodge AoE’s, direct damage, and snare like effects. Add in a couple virtual bodies around that you need to rez in a certain amount of time or you fail. In between all this movement/blocking/rezzing, you dps the dummy. At the end of a timer, you’re given a score -based on how many attacks you avoided, how fast you rezzed, how much damage you did. Think akin to the Xmen Danger Room. THEN you’d actually be practicing, while playing something at least ‘resembling’ the game.

Good lord, the amount of nonsense that gets posted on these forums ...

In Destiny, you shoot your gun. In Call of Duty, you shoot your gun. There's no point in "practice" because the practice wouldn't apply to the actual game. You're not working through a complex rotation or managing DoTs or resources or buff/debuff uptimes in these games. There's no point at all in drawing an analogy between ESO combat and basic FPS combat.

In ESO you hit the target skeleton to optimize your build, to test variations in gear and skills and CP and group comp, and to perfect your rotation. Would it be better to do this in actual combat scenarios? Maybe, but that's hard to do by yourself and time-consuming even with a group. Remember the Bloodspawn and Slimecraw DPS test days? I do. It was a pain. We really want to get a group of 12 and reset vHRC over and over again to practice on Ra Kotu? Why do that when we have easier options?

Spend enough time in front of the target skeleton and the rotation becomes ingrained. When the rotation becomes ingrained, you can focus on mechanics and the other stuff you actually need to do in game. And besides all of that, numerous fights in this game are just stack and burn. What you do on a target skeleton is exactly what you do on Ra Kotu or the Foundation Stone Atro or Valariel or most dungeon bosses.

And your point about practice is pretty ridiculous. Lots of people "practice" for things they don't get paid for every day. They're called hobbies. Some people find it fun to spend time optimizing their ESO combat skills. Other people have fun posting dumb nonsense on the forums of a game they don't even play. We probably have a different opinion on which one of those hobbies is "sad."

SmellyUnlimited · July 2018

LiquidPony wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

BaneOfBattler wrote: »

You are brave by speaking by the majority of players who just play for fun even doing vets and endgame stuff.

This message you created was directed towards the most toxic and manipulable by 3rd party opinions/influencers/hype/minmaxers/tryhards. Leading to a no brain community guided by those mentioned before. I'm sorry if i offend someone, just speaking facts.

The parse thing has become as popular as back in the day of wotlk gearscore addon; or day present neverwinter gearscore in game attribute measurement.

The dps parses trend has to go, it will only make us go somewhere we wont like, and then these tryharders with their parses will leave the game because of a new grind/farming items/worse rng could happen because of so many players reaching so much dps will just tell devs to increase the "challenge" and thus forcing other players with lives and jobs to do x task for x time. Simply because some guys wanted to make the vet content easy.

Sometimes the best is not always the best, and sometimes easy is not always fun.

Parsing has to go, practicing in a mmo is ridiculous, dummies doesnt make you dodge red areas, doesnt hit u. Your dps parse is a self reassuring tool for the insecure dps, and it has to go. Period.

Thank you for also seeing the absurdity about “practicing.” Unless you’re a professional gamer making money, the idea of someone practicing in a video game otherwise is just sad. Do people go on Call of Duty and sit at the firing range all day? Playing the game IS practicing. In Destiny, you go on missions and such where you kill enemies and complete the goal. Then, you go on the raid events and do the same thing. You’re prepared for this part of the game because in plahing the game, you have prepared.

RNG is insidious. Theorycrafters release what’s BiS, and everyone then clamors for this rare much sought after gear. The game then BECOMES a never ending farm. And that plays right into developers hands.

If you want to make dummy parses value added, make them challenging. The dummy is a combat dummy, and you have to dodge AoE’s, direct damage, and snare like effects. Add in a couple virtual bodies around that you need to rez in a certain amount of time or you fail. In between all this movement/blocking/rezzing, you dps the dummy. At the end of a timer, you’re given a score -based on how many attacks you avoided, how fast you rezzed, how much damage you did. Think akin to the Xmen Danger Room. THEN you’d actually be practicing, while playing something at least ‘resembling’ the game.

Good lord, the amount of nonsense that gets posted on these forums ...

In Destiny, you shoot your gun. In Call of Duty, you shoot your gun. There's no point in "practice" because the practice wouldn't apply to the actual game. You're not working through a complex rotation or managing DoTs or resources or buff/debuff uptimes in these games. There's no point at all in drawing an analogy between ESO combat and basic FPS combat.

In ESO you hit the target skeleton to optimize your build, to test variations in gear and skills and CP and group comp, and to perfect your rotation. Would it be better to do this in actual combat scenarios? Maybe, but that's hard to do by yourself and time-consuming even with a group. Remember the Bloodspawn and Slimecraw DPS test days? I do. It was a pain. We really want to get a group of 12 and reset vHRC over and over again to practice on Ra Kotu? Why do that when we have easier options?

Spend enough time in front of the target skeleton and the rotation becomes ingrained. When the rotation becomes ingrained, you can focus on mechanics and the other stuff you actually need to do in game. And besides all of that, numerous fights in this game are just stack and burn. What you do on a target skeleton is exactly what you do on Ra Kotu or the Foundation Stone Atro or Valariel or most dungeon bosses.

And your point about practice is pretty ridiculous. Lots of people "practice" for things they don't get paid for every day. They're called hobbies. Some people find it fun to spend time optimizing their ESO combat skills. Other people have fun posting dumb nonsense on the forums of a game they don't even play. We probably have a different opinion on which one of those hobbies is "sad."

Your post lost whatever semblance of integrity it had when you resorted to name-calling. Ad hominem is the lowest form of argument, and people recognize that fact fairly quickly when reading one.

Anotherone773 · July 2018

Joker99 wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

You can do all content in this game with 20-25k dps. So i just ignore people who say you need more or meta builds or to min/max stuff. They obviously dont know what they are talking about. They might need to do 40k or 50k to complete content...i can complete it with a group that does 20-25k dps though.

Also dummy parses are a joke. I cant believe people seriously think a dummy parse shows any other ability except that you know how to push buttons in a certain order. You know what else shows you know how to push buttons in a certain order? Typing.

First I'd like to see how you complete vAS HM or vMoL HM with a group dps averaging 160k-200k, seriously, this argument is pretty stupid, the fact that people did complete it in the past with much lower dps isn't an argument either, because the people that completed it then were top players not average people, and while they maybe hit 30k back then, that was today's equivalent of 50k.
If we consider true the fact that you can complete the aformentioned HMs with 20-25k dps then may I ask, have you done them all? If your answer is yes then I applaud you, but if your answer is no then may I ask why? People have to realise that there's more to Endgame PvE and bringing more dps than what's required is not going to hurt anyone, and it means less time dealing with mechanics, which in itself means less deaths to mechanics. I can never understand why people choose to throttle themselves.

Secondly, dummy parses are most definitely not a joke, if you lack the ability to push buttons in a certain order in front of a dummy then you most definitely won't do it on a boss fight, suddenly that group of people averaging 20-25k on dummy has a group dps of around 110k on Rakkat HM. This argument is again what lazy people tell themselves because they don't want to spend 45 mins each day practicing.

Bolded part: what you think people cant do it now when they did it back then?The irony is in 2 years people will be saying the same thing about Cloudrest. Oh people could do it back then because they were top players, they couldnt do it with the same DPS now. Please. What a weak argument.

2nd bolded part: Of course bringing more dps isnt going to hurt, but its not necessary either. You dont understand because you dont play for fun. Not everyone is in a hurry to get to the end of everything as fast as they can. I still run normal dungeons with newbies so i can casually stroll through them and loot containers and admire the scenery...you know TO RELAX. I dont want to run through every instance feeling like if i dont go fast enough my computer is going to explode. If i wanted to race, id buy a race car. And a majority of players dont care about going fast. They dont care if a boss takes 30 seconds longer or you have a wipe. Its not a big deal to normal players. I know this is a really hard concept that people just want to play the game for fun and they dont care about not being a top player or wipes or making mistakes or not doing 9 billion dps, but most people dont.

3rd bolded part: Oh its a huge joke. I cant take anyone seriously that takes a target dummy in a video game seriously. I am sorry, but i think its absolutely hilarious that people take practicing on a dummy ...IN A VIDEO GAME, so seriously. I mean i dont even know what to do with that. Out of all the things in life to take seriously...a target dummy on a video game. How do you argue with that? I mean there is nothing i can say, we arent even in the same universe. I am in the real one by the way.

4th bolded part: Lazy, eh? Come to work a day with me and ill teach you all about lazy. By lunch you will either feel like you are dying or wish you had of already. I dont want to spend 45 minutes a day practicing on a dummy because on my list of things to do when i get home it isnt even in the top ten thousand. And i cannot think of possibly a more pointless and worse way to spend my free time than "practicing" on a target dummy for video game that i play for fun.

You know i thought WoW elitists were some special people, but ESO elitists take it to a whole new level. I mean that kind of special is pretty close to divine. I think people that take this game seriously need to go outside every once in a while... maybe socialize with some real people, have a conversation with someone face to face, you know act like a human for a bit. There is a whole world out there...and guess what. IT.IS.REAL!!!

kadar · July 2018

@OP, people parse too much agreed. At the same time, there needs to be away to measure prowess of the 1 without wasting the time of the 12. It's a way to get somewhat meaningful data to form a baseline as to the capability of an individual.

DemonDruaga · July 2018

Just come to the dark pvp side, no dummy parse required

usmcjdking · July 2018

I agree with the sentiment of this thread, but let's be realistic here.

@LiquidPony is 100% right. The requirements for the hardest content are simply astronomical - the margin between victory and failure in ESO raids is so unnecessarily tight (mostly due to enrage mechanics). One subpar player can ruin an entire run and waste the time of three or 11 other people. Back when it was just craggy trials, a subpar player wasn't too much of an issue the objective was to learn through force when it came to roles; just do the content repeatedly until you & team git gud. Failing was rarely ever an issue, time to complete and score was though.

This did leave a schism, however. The endgame was simply not very hard, challenging or good at retaining players. So they introduced VMOL and trial HMs which dramatically changed the landscape of players entering the endgame. We ended up with 3 trials that scaled beautifully into veteran (VSO, VAA, VHRC) and one that is massively overtuned due to multiple enrage mechanics throughout the entire encounter (VMOL) that only scale in difficulty the further you go in leading to a very small margin of error.

As bad as a design decision that is, players gotta roll with it and due to such, have been parsing relentlessly since the introduction of VMOL. It hasn't helped that the average or casual endgame ready player that other content (which is done and completed far more frequently) is heavily dependent on this method of team selection which is the root cause of discord on the forums here and unrequited rage towards "elite" or more simply put, better players. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Even though I have a large disdain for the non-craggy trials, my largest gripe is the massive amount of geargating they are doing with them. Solid players, the guys in the 95-98% bracket like myself, are dropping out of PVE endgame because we need that gear to barely break the minimum raid requirements and even then with all the BIS stuff we just aren't elites - just good enough. There are a LOT of people in this boat and it is certainly frustrating to be there. This is easily evidenced by looking at the guild rosters for the top guilds and their relevant top LB scores. There is a lot of crossguild cooperation or membership and it's not doing anything but tightening as they deliver harder content with more gated gear. The TFS/Infal meta was the best meta because literally anyone could get that gear. Everyone could reach the ceiling gear wise and with just a little practice be good enough.

TL; DR. Craggy trials scaled exceptionally well in difficulty and loot but no one does that *** anymore so the requirements for them no longer exist in endgame guilds. VMOL vanilla a little too difficult. VHOF way too difficult. Everything else absolutely ridiculous. While "elite" players are the reason dummy parsing is a thing, they are not the cause and it's the only logical thing to do to ensure time is not wasted for them as they have wasted a fair bit on their own dummy parses themselves.

witchdoctor · July 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

TL; DR. Craggy trials scaled exceptionally well in difficulty and loot but no one does that *** anymore so the requirements for them no longer exist in endgame guilds. VMOL vanilla a little too difficult. VHOF way too difficult. Everything else absolutely ridiculous. While "elite" players are the reason dummy parsing is a thing, they are not the cause and it's the only logical thing to do to ensure time is not wasted for them as they have wasted a fair bit on their own dummy parses themselves.

This is pretty spot-on.

The end-game community is working with what its being given.

IMO, ZOS needs a serious pass-over on the core mechanics. Class balance being just one part. CP, buffs, debuffs, gear, all of it. Then they need to get back to making trials that segue better from normal to vet to vet HM.

Right now, vet trials in ESO are starting to look like that joke diagram about the learning curve in Eve Online (i.e., immediate full power climb to orbit).

LiquidPony · July 2018

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

BaneOfBattler wrote: »

You are brave by speaking by the majority of players who just play for fun even doing vets and endgame stuff.

This message you created was directed towards the most toxic and manipulable by 3rd party opinions/influencers/hype/minmaxers/tryhards. Leading to a no brain community guided by those mentioned before. I'm sorry if i offend someone, just speaking facts.

The parse thing has become as popular as back in the day of wotlk gearscore addon; or day present neverwinter gearscore in game attribute measurement.

The dps parses trend has to go, it will only make us go somewhere we wont like, and then these tryharders with their parses will leave the game because of a new grind/farming items/worse rng could happen because of so many players reaching so much dps will just tell devs to increase the "challenge" and thus forcing other players with lives and jobs to do x task for x time. Simply because some guys wanted to make the vet content easy.

Sometimes the best is not always the best, and sometimes easy is not always fun.

Parsing has to go, practicing in a mmo is ridiculous, dummies doesnt make you dodge red areas, doesnt hit u. Your dps parse is a self reassuring tool for the insecure dps, and it has to go. Period.

Thank you for also seeing the absurdity about “practicing.” Unless you’re a professional gamer making money, the idea of someone practicing in a video game otherwise is just sad. Do people go on Call of Duty and sit at the firing range all day? Playing the game IS practicing. In Destiny, you go on missions and such where you kill enemies and complete the goal. Then, you go on the raid events and do the same thing. You’re prepared for this part of the game because in plahing the game, you have prepared.

RNG is insidious. Theorycrafters release what’s BiS, and everyone then clamors for this rare much sought after gear. The game then BECOMES a never ending farm. And that plays right into developers hands.

If you want to make dummy parses value added, make them challenging. The dummy is a combat dummy, and you have to dodge AoE’s, direct damage, and snare like effects. Add in a couple virtual bodies around that you need to rez in a certain amount of time or you fail. In between all this movement/blocking/rezzing, you dps the dummy. At the end of a timer, you’re given a score -based on how many attacks you avoided, how fast you rezzed, how much damage you did. Think akin to the Xmen Danger Room. THEN you’d actually be practicing, while playing something at least ‘resembling’ the game.

Good lord, the amount of nonsense that gets posted on these forums ...

In Destiny, you shoot your gun. In Call of Duty, you shoot your gun. There's no point in "practice" because the practice wouldn't apply to the actual game. You're not working through a complex rotation or managing DoTs or resources or buff/debuff uptimes in these games. There's no point at all in drawing an analogy between ESO combat and basic FPS combat.

In ESO you hit the target skeleton to optimize your build, to test variations in gear and skills and CP and group comp, and to perfect your rotation. Would it be better to do this in actual combat scenarios? Maybe, but that's hard to do by yourself and time-consuming even with a group. Remember the Bloodspawn and Slimecraw DPS test days? I do. It was a pain. We really want to get a group of 12 and reset vHRC over and over again to practice on Ra Kotu? Why do that when we have easier options?

Spend enough time in front of the target skeleton and the rotation becomes ingrained. When the rotation becomes ingrained, you can focus on mechanics and the other stuff you actually need to do in game. And besides all of that, numerous fights in this game are just stack and burn. What you do on a target skeleton is exactly what you do on Ra Kotu or the Foundation Stone Atro or Valariel or most dungeon bosses.

And your point about practice is pretty ridiculous. Lots of people "practice" for things they don't get paid for every day. They're called hobbies. Some people find it fun to spend time optimizing their ESO combat skills. Other people have fun posting dumb nonsense on the forums of a game they don't even play. We probably have a different opinion on which one of those hobbies is "sad."

Your post lost whatever semblance of integrity it had when you resorted to name-calling. Ad hominem is the lowest form of argument, and people recognize that fact fairly quickly when reading one.

You clearly don't understand what "ad hominem" means.

Joker99 · July 2018

Bolded part: what you think people cant do it now when they did it back then?The irony is in 2 years people will be saying the same thing about Cloudrest. Oh people could do it back then because they were top players, they couldnt do it with the same DPS now. Please. What a weak argument.

2nd bolded part: Of course bringing more dps isnt going to hurt, but its not necessary either. You dont understand because you dont play for fun. Not everyone is in a hurry to get to the end of everything as fast as they can. I still run normal dungeons with newbies so i can casually stroll through them and loot containers and admire the scenery...you know TO RELAX. I dont want to run through every instance feeling like if i dont go fast enough my computer is going to explode. If i wanted to race, id buy a race car. And a majority of players dont care about going fast. They dont care if a boss takes 30 seconds longer or you have a wipe. Its not a big deal to normal players. I know this is a really hard concept that people just want to play the game for fun and they dont care about not being a top player or wipes or making mistakes or not doing 9 billion dps, but most people dont.

3rd bolded part: Oh its a huge joke. I cant take anyone seriously that takes a target dummy in a video game seriously. I am sorry, but i think its absolutely hilarious that people take practicing on a dummy ...IN A VIDEO GAME, so seriously. I mean i dont even know what to do with that. Out of all the things in life to take seriously...a target dummy on a video game. How do you argue with that? I mean there is nothing i can say, we arent even in the same universe. I am in the real one by the way.

4th bolded part: Lazy, eh? Come to work a day with me and ill teach you all about lazy. By lunch you will either feel like you are dying or wish you had of already. I dont want to spend 45 minutes a day practicing on a dummy because on my list of things to do when i get home it isnt even in the top ten thousand. And i cannot think of possibly a more pointless and worse way to spend my free time than "practicing" on a target dummy for video game that i play for fun.

You know i thought WoW elitists were some special people, but ESO elitists take it to a whole new level. I mean that kind of special is pretty close to divine. I think people that take this game seriously need to go outside every once in a while... maybe socialize with some real people, have a conversation with someone face to face, you know act like a human for a bit. There is a whole world out there...and guess what. IT.IS.REAL!!!

Oh is it really a weak argument, or is it just you avoiding my point, the top players that completed it back then with lower dps can obviously complete it now too with lower dps, but the people that are trying to complete it now are average people, those that still have deaths on mechanics for the 100th time, if there are constantly 2 deaths in a HM attempt that is seriously going to gimp the group's whatever chance of completing, even for top groups.

If playing for fun is your thing then yes, there's no reason to bring more dps than what's required, but the real issue is when these people that play for fun talk about content they haven't even done like they're experts or try to get in high end guilds with 0 effort and are baffled that they weren't taken, it's a common occurence here on forums that people mention guilds should lower their standards, but they never stop to think that they maybe should get better themselves.
And why don't I play for fun? If I didn't have fun doing what I do in game then I wouldn't play, it's simple, the fact that I find fun in doing something else than you do doesn't give you the right to tell me I don't play for fun.

How come are you in the real one? Does the real one have some set rules against practicing on a dummy in a video game? For your information, there are millions of gamers in this world, by your logic not one of them should practice, and if they do, they don't live in the real world, that's something many people could consider an insult, and yet again shows that the most toxic of players are still the casuals that come up with these statements. Now I don't want to get personal, even though you do, but maybe you should try to be more open minded because that mindset of yours isn't gonna do well for you, especially when you're gonna grow older.

I'll ask kindly to refrain from making assumptions about my real life, we're on a video game forum here, if you think you can resort to statements such as "act like human for a bit" then you have lost from the start, you don't know me in real life, neither even in game, I'm probably not the person you think I am, search elsewhere.

FakeFox · July 2018

BaneOfBattler wrote: »

You are brave by speaking by the majority of players who just play for fun even doing vets and endgame stuff.

This message you created was directed towards the most toxic and manipulable by 3rd party opinions/influencers/hype/minmaxers/tryhards. Leading to a no brain community guided by those mentioned before. I'm sorry if i offend someone, just speaking facts.

The parse thing has become as popular as back in the day of wotlk gearscore addon; or day present neverwinter gearscore in game attribute measurement.

The dps parses trend has to go, it will only make us go somewhere we wont like, and then these tryharders with their parses will leave the game because of a new grind/farming items/worse rng could happen because of so many players reaching so much dps will just tell devs to increase the "challenge" and thus forcing other players with lives and jobs to do x task for x time. Simply because some guys wanted to make the vet content easy.

Sometimes the best is not always the best, and sometimes easy is not always fun.

Parsing has to go, practicing in a mmo is ridiculous, dummies doesnt make you dodge red areas, doesnt hit u. Your dps parse is a self reassuring tool for the insecure dps, and it has to go. Period.

The only toxic person I see right now is you. And you are absolutely wrong and insulting, by implying good players have no jobs or real live.

Anotherone773 · July 2018

Joker99 wrote: »

Oh is it really a weak argument, or is it just you avoiding my point, the top players that completed it back then with lower dps can obviously complete it now too with lower dps, but the people that are trying to complete it now are average people, those that still have deaths on mechanics for the 100th time, if there are constantly 2 deaths in a HM attempt that is seriously going to gimp the group's whatever chance of completing, even for top groups.

If playing for fun is your thing then yes, there's no reason to bring more dps than what's required, but the real issue is when these people that play for fun talk about content they haven't even done like they're experts or try to get in high end guilds with 0 effort and are baffled that they weren't taken, it's a common occurence here on forums that people mention guilds should lower their standards, but they never stop to think that they maybe should get better themselves.
And why don't I play for fun? If I didn't have fun doing what I do in game then I wouldn't play, it's simple, the fact that I find fun in doing something else than you do doesn't give you the right to tell me I don't play for fun.

How come are you in the real one? Does the real one have some set rules against practicing on a dummy in a video game? For your information, there are millions of gamers in this world, by your logic not one of them should practice, and if they do, they don't live in the real world, that's something many people could consider an insult, and yet again shows that the most toxic of players are still the casuals that come up with these statements. Now I don't want to get personal, even though you do, but maybe you should try to be more open minded because that mindset of yours isn't gonna do well for you, especially when you're gonna grow older.

I'll ask kindly to refrain from making assumptions about my real life, we're on a video game forum here, if you think you can resort to statements such as "act like human for a bit" then you have lost from the start, you don't know me in real life, neither even in game, I'm probably not the person you think I am, search elsewhere.

Bolded #1: Yes it is. Here is the thing about elitists. They act like they are the only ones that can do end game content. Because they make up this fantasy world where you have to meet requirements they also make up in order to complete the same content as them. That way they can, in their tiny minds, feel like they are special because no one else can achieve what they did and in order to do so they have to work really hard at it.

But normal people have been doing end game content with "subpar" skills in this game and every other once and completing since the invention of such content. Elitists just live in a fantasy land where you have to meet some artificial requirements to do content many players with a bit of time and brains could just wing it... you know like the first runs of every single raid in every single game that has raiding before 100 people post videos and articles on how to step by step beat it.

Bolded #2: they have just as much right to talk about the content in this game as anyone else. As for the guilds, everyone tells them if you want to raid you need to get in a raiding guild. So they try to join a raiding guild. IF they get in they still dont get to actually raid unless they try to assemble their own group. You have a core group and alternates and everyone else gets to be their fanboys and thats it. Or at least that what ive been told by several players who were in raiding guilds( though not in those words). I dont think guilds should lower their standards. Its good they dont let common casual players in and corrupt them. What is really needed is casual raiding guilds. That way you have your "pro" raiding guilds for people who want to be professional raiders and then you have your casual raiders for people who want to do it for fun and dont care about all other crap or who want to learn without having a drill Sargent standing over their shoulder criticizing everything they do.

Bolded #3: Here is what you dont understand. You are telling people to practice on a target dummy for 45 minutes a day to gitgud because target dummys matter. Try to grasp this concept and relate it to the game: It is like taking a competition shooter( sharpshooter) and putting him in a war zone with a sniper rifle and saying have at it. It is a silly waste of time. Why? Because a dummy is in a controlled environment that doesnt have the bugs, random lag and dps drops, bosses hitting back, red stuff to dodge, adds, and other such things. On top of this rotations outside of dummy practice are a waste of time. My generation of gamers invented rotations. Do you know why we invented rotations? Because people couldnt figure out what ability to use when and as they sometimes do here would just spam one thing and sometimes two. They didnt use the best ability for that moment in that situation. Just the same ability over and over. So we came up with rotations so if they were just going to thoughtlessly press buttons we would get them to press different buttons to different things in the most effective order you could mindlessly press buttons in and be somewhat effective.

Our impatience with teaching people led to rotations becoming standard and now people are all about the rotation which is the lazy way to play. Combat situations are fluid. Ability "3" might not be the best ability right now even though its next in your rotation. Ive watched people who tossed AOEs on bosses a couple of seconds before it moved or in some cases on bosses who move constantly around a room. Complete waste of resources but they do it because its part of the rotation and all they know is what elitists ingrained into them, follow the rotation. Then you have dodges blocks and other such actions not used on a dummy. There are some bosses in which you have to dodge several times, sometimes you have to switch to adds. Again people will just continue their rotation so it its not near as effective because they dont have AOEs DOTs debuffs or buffs running at the right time until they start the cycle over.

Rotation is "raiding for dummies" literally. If you truly want to learn a game and be good at it toss the meta builds in the trash and learn how to play in combat situations, not on a dummy in a safe place.

Bolded#4: Except that wasnt directed at you personally. It was speaking about a general group of people who take target dummies and DPS numbers and meta builds and games in general far far to seriously. When people get so absorbed into a virtual world and lose human interaction, they become less humane, and that leads to very toxic situations.

Joker99 · July 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Bolded #1: Yes it is. Here is the thing about elitists. They act like they are the only ones that can do end game content. Because they make up this fantasy world where you have to meet requirements they also make up in order to complete the same content as them. That way they can, in their tiny minds, feel like they are special because no one else can achieve what they did and in order to do so they have to work really hard at it.

But normal people have been doing end game content with "subpar" skills in this game and every other once and completing since the invention of such content. Elitists just live in a fantasy land where you have to meet some artificial requirements to do content many players with a bit of time and brains could just wing it... you know like the first runs of every single raid in every single game that has raiding before 100 people post videos and articles on how to step by step beat it.

Bolded #2: they have just as much right to talk about the content in this game as anyone else. As for the guilds, everyone tells them if you want to raid you need to get in a raiding guild. So they try to join a raiding guild. IF they get in they still dont get to actually raid unless they try to assemble their own group. You have a core group and alternates and everyone else gets to be their fanboys and thats it. Or at least that what ive been told by several players who were in raiding guilds( though not in those words). I dont think guilds should lower their standards. Its good they dont let common casual players in and corrupt them. What is really needed is casual raiding guilds. That way you have your "pro" raiding guilds for people who want to be professional raiders and then you have your casual raiders for people who want to do it for fun and dont care about all other crap or who want to learn without having a drill Sargent standing over their shoulder criticizing everything they do.

Bolded #3: Here is what you dont understand. You are telling people to practice on a target dummy for 45 minutes a day to gitgud because target dummys matter. Try to grasp this concept and relate it to the game: It is like taking a competition shooter( sharpshooter) and putting him in a war zone with a sniper rifle and saying have at it. It is a silly waste of time. Why? Because a dummy is in a controlled environment that doesnt have the bugs, random lag and dps drops, bosses hitting back, red stuff to dodge, adds, and other such things. On top of this rotations outside of dummy practice are a waste of time. My generation of gamers invented rotations. Do you know why we invented rotations? Because people couldnt figure out what ability to use when and as they sometimes do here would just spam one thing and sometimes two. They didnt use the best ability for that moment in that situation. Just the same ability over and over. So we came up with rotations so if they were just going to thoughtlessly press buttons we would get them to press different buttons to different things in the most effective order you could mindlessly press buttons in and be somewhat effective.

Our impatience with teaching people led to rotations becoming standard and now people are all about the rotation which is the lazy way to play. Combat situations are fluid. Ability "3" might not be the best ability right now even though its next in your rotation. Ive watched people who tossed AOEs on bosses a couple of seconds before it moved or in some cases on bosses who move constantly around a room. Complete waste of resources but they do it because its part of the rotation and all they know is what elitists ingrained into them, follow the rotation. Then you have dodges blocks and other such actions not used on a dummy. There are some bosses in which you have to dodge several times, sometimes you have to switch to adds. Again people will just continue their rotation so it its not near as effective because they dont have AOEs DOTs debuffs or buffs running at the right time until they start the cycle over.

Rotation is "raiding for dummies" literally. If you truly want to learn a game and be good at it toss the meta builds in the trash and learn how to play in combat situations, not on a dummy in a safe place.

Bolded#4: Except that wasnt directed at you personally. It was speaking about a general group of people who take target dummies and DPS numbers and meta builds and games in general far far to seriously. When people get so absorbed into a virtual world and lose human interaction, they become less humane, and that leads to very toxic situations.

I'll then wait for a video of a group of casuals completing HMs, because that's what's the real endgame in this game, not dungeons or just vet Trials. Casual guilds exist, completions done by only casuals don't.

They have the right to talk, of course, but not like they are experts and they have that content on farm, also, your perception of the high end guilds is wrong, I have been to a lot of raids with a lot of guilds that can be classified as high end, and mistakes done by players aren't followed by raging teammates and things like these, instead it's sometimes not even mentioned or even laughed about if it leads to a wipe.

While it's true that a competition shooter would be the first to take a bullet to the head in a warzone and can't be compared to a sniper, you also forget that a real sniper spends just as much time at the shooting range as a competition shooter, that said, I think I haven't explained exactly what I mean by the fact that dummy parsing is important for endgame players:
1. It is used for learning a rotation down to muscle memory, of course their importance is 0 but not having to think which should be your next ability( and this is especially important for classes that don't have a rotation such as stamblade or magblade) during a boss fight leaves more time for your brain to focus on mechanics.
2. It's used for comparing builds, traits, skills. If you get more dps using a set than another set with the same rotation then there's no reason not to use that set, same goes for traits or even rotation skills, this is how BiS and META is created, some people are not that good at this game than others, so having META gear should help them reach their goal, be it a dummy parse (useless) or completing all content.
Here's a common misconception, the real endgame players don't flaunt their dummy dps or *** talk people because they aren't BiS. Those that do, sadly, are what's giving endgame players a bad name, and because these people that basically live in front of a dummy are more numerous than endgame players hence why people believe all of them are like that. Those people are the part of their own cult, they don't have any notable achievements in game but their dummy dps so they need to make themselves feel special somehow, many of them going as far as cheesing for high dps. I guess in your terms these kind of players would classify as competition shooters and snipers would be endgame players.

People that don't know how to dps on certain mobile/mechanics heavy fights are a common occurence, it shows either lack of fight awareness or just plain inexperience, which is why I'm saying dummy parses are not at all important but they do help a lot by reasons I specified earlier. I hope I made myself clear and with all of this being said, I'll leave you with a video of Colt executing the rotation of stamblade flawlessly in a very mechanic heavy and mobile fight where he achieved the biggest dps on this boss, which wouldn't be possible without spending tons of time practicing outside of raids.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoMFyjViFoo&t=

del9 · July 2018

I bet this guy has a problem with animation cancelling too XD

usmcjdking · July 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Joker99 wrote: »

Oh is it really a weak argument, or is it just you avoiding my point, the top players that completed it back then with lower dps can obviously complete it now too with lower dps, but the people that are trying to complete it now are average people, those that still have deaths on mechanics for the 100th time, if there are constantly 2 deaths in a HM attempt that is seriously going to gimp the group's whatever chance of completing, even for top groups.

If playing for fun is your thing then yes, there's no reason to bring more dps than what's required, but the real issue is when these people that play for fun talk about content they haven't even done like they're experts or try to get in high end guilds with 0 effort and are baffled that they weren't taken, it's a common occurence here on forums that people mention guilds should lower their standards, but they never stop to think that they maybe should get better themselves.
And why don't I play for fun? If I didn't have fun doing what I do in game then I wouldn't play, it's simple, the fact that I find fun in doing something else than you do doesn't give you the right to tell me I don't play for fun.

How come are you in the real one? Does the real one have some set rules against practicing on a dummy in a video game? For your information, there are millions of gamers in this world, by your logic not one of them should practice, and if they do, they don't live in the real world, that's something many people could consider an insult, and yet again shows that the most toxic of players are still the casuals that come up with these statements. Now I don't want to get personal, even though you do, but maybe you should try to be more open minded because that mindset of yours isn't gonna do well for you, especially when you're gonna grow older.

I'll ask kindly to refrain from making assumptions about my real life, we're on a video game forum here, if you think you can resort to statements such as "act like human for a bit" then you have lost from the start, you don't know me in real life, neither even in game, I'm probably not the person you think I am, search elsewhere.

Bolded #1: Yes it is. Here is the thing about elitists. They act like they are the only ones that can do end game content. Because they make up this fantasy world where you have to meet requirements they also make up in order to complete the same content as them. That way they can, in their tiny minds, feel like they are special because no one else can achieve what they did and in order to do so they have to work really hard at it.

But normal people have been doing end game content with "subpar" skills in this game and every other once and completing since the invention of such content. Elitists just live in a fantasy land where you have to meet some artificial requirements to do content many players with a bit of time and brains could just wing it... you know like the first runs of every single raid in every single game that has raiding before 100 people post videos and articles on how to step by step beat it.

Bolded #2: they have just as much right to talk about the content in this game as anyone else. As for the guilds, everyone tells them if you want to raid you need to get in a raiding guild. So they try to join a raiding guild. IF they get in they still dont get to actually raid unless they try to assemble their own group. You have a core group and alternates and everyone else gets to be their fanboys and thats it. Or at least that what ive been told by several players who were in raiding guilds( though not in those words). I dont think guilds should lower their standards. Its good they dont let common casual players in and corrupt them. What is really needed is casual raiding guilds. That way you have your "pro" raiding guilds for people who want to be professional raiders and then you have your casual raiders for people who want to do it for fun and dont care about all other crap or who want to learn without having a drill Sargent standing over their shoulder criticizing everything they do.

Bolded #3: Here is what you dont understand. You are telling people to practice on a target dummy for 45 minutes a day to gitgud because target dummys matter. Try to grasp this concept and relate it to the game: It is like taking a competition shooter( sharpshooter) and putting him in a war zone with a sniper rifle and saying have at it. It is a silly waste of time. Why? Because a dummy is in a controlled environment that doesnt have the bugs, random lag and dps drops, bosses hitting back, red stuff to dodge, adds, and other such things. On top of this rotations outside of dummy practice are a waste of time. My generation of gamers invented rotations. Do you know why we invented rotations? Because people couldnt figure out what ability to use when and as they sometimes do here would just spam one thing and sometimes two. They didnt use the best ability for that moment in that situation. Just the same ability over and over. So we came up with rotations so if they were just going to thoughtlessly press buttons we would get them to press different buttons to different things in the most effective order you could mindlessly press buttons in and be somewhat effective.

Our impatience with teaching people led to rotations becoming standard and now people are all about the rotation which is the lazy way to play. Combat situations are fluid. Ability "3" might not be the best ability right now even though its next in your rotation. Ive watched people who tossed AOEs on bosses a couple of seconds before it moved or in some cases on bosses who move constantly around a room. Complete waste of resources but they do it because its part of the rotation and all they know is what elitists ingrained into them, follow the rotation. Then you have dodges blocks and other such actions not used on a dummy. There are some bosses in which you have to dodge several times, sometimes you have to switch to adds. Again people will just continue their rotation so it its not near as effective because they dont have AOEs DOTs debuffs or buffs running at the right time until they start the cycle over.

Rotation is "raiding for dummies" literally. If you truly want to learn a game and be good at it toss the meta builds in the trash and learn how to play in combat situations, not on a dummy in a safe place.

Bolded#4: Except that wasnt directed at you personally. It was speaking about a general group of people who take target dummies and DPS numbers and meta builds and games in general far far to seriously. When people get so absorbed into a virtual world and lose human interaction, they become less humane, and that leads to very toxic situations.

This post is so far off the mark.

You cannot change game design by changing the way you play when it comes to end game. It is that specific of a metric. There are a few instances where someone can do something interesting on something offmeta and not get carried (VHOF clear on my hybrid sorc) but they certainly do not pull anything more than what's required, meaning that you have no room for the inevitable error.

The only leg you have to stand on is that some people have dramatically inflated raid requirements because the endgame DPS dummy numbers have inflated their perception of what's acceptable. When you go to do a nightcap run of VMOL for the 100th time with your raid and you need a 12th, it really doesn't matter if the dude who rogers up has 30k dummy and 2 clears or 45k dummy with 50 clears. The end result will be the same - completion in a timely fashion.

huschdeguddzje · July 2018

Amazing this thread hasn't been shutdown yet by all the acid being spit

LiquidPony · July 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

I agree with the sentiment of this thread, but let's be realistic here.

@LiquidPony is 100% right. The requirements for the hardest content are simply astronomical - the margin between victory and failure in ESO raids is so unnecessarily tight (mostly due to enrage mechanics). One subpar player can ruin an entire run and waste the time of three or 11 other people. Back when it was just craggy trials, a subpar player wasn't too much of an issue the objective was to learn through force when it came to roles; just do the content repeatedly until you & team git gud. Failing was rarely ever an issue, time to complete and score was though.

This did leave a schism, however. The endgame was simply not very hard, challenging or good at retaining players. So they introduced VMOL and trial HMs which dramatically changed the landscape of players entering the endgame. We ended up with 3 trials that scaled beautifully into veteran (VSO, VAA, VHRC) and one that is massively overtuned due to multiple enrage mechanics throughout the entire encounter (VMOL) that only scale in difficulty the further you go in leading to a very small margin of error.

As bad as a design decision that is, players gotta roll with it and due to such, have been parsing relentlessly since the introduction of VMOL. It hasn't helped that the average or casual endgame ready player that other content (which is done and completed far more frequently) is heavily dependent on this method of team selection which is the root cause of discord on the forums here and unrequited rage towards "elite" or more simply put, better players. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Even though I have a large disdain for the non-craggy trials, my largest gripe is the massive amount of geargating they are doing with them. Solid players, the guys in the 95-98% bracket like myself, are dropping out of PVE endgame because we need that gear to barely break the minimum raid requirements and even then with all the BIS stuff we just aren't elites - just good enough. There are a LOT of people in this boat and it is certainly frustrating to be there. This is easily evidenced by looking at the guild rosters for the top guilds and their relevant top LB scores. There is a lot of crossguild cooperation or membership and it's not doing anything but tightening as they deliver harder content with more gated gear. The TFS/Infal meta was the best meta because literally anyone could get that gear. Everyone could reach the ceiling gear wise and with just a little practice be good enough.

TL; DR. Craggy trials scaled exceptionally well in difficulty and loot but no one does that *** anymore so the requirements for them no longer exist in endgame guilds. VMOL vanilla a little too difficult. VHOF way too difficult. Everything else absolutely ridiculous. While "elite" players are the reason dummy parsing is a thing, they are not the cause and it's the only logical thing to do to ensure time is not wasted for them as they have wasted a fair bit on their own dummy parses themselves.

Meh. Not sure about all of that.

vMoL is my favorite Trial by a long shot. I don't think the difficulty is that high. I cleared it on PC a few weeks ago, and the average CP in the group was probably 400-450, with a tank that had never tanked that Trial before and a healer who had never even attempted vMoL before. 45 minutes, a couple of wipes, pad 5 burn on Rakkhat.

The DPS requirements aren't that high. First boss is easy. Rakkhat (non HM) is a straightforward fight. The Twins take some time to get comfortable with, but "move clockwise during conversions and if you have to switch during prayer phase" isn't all the difficult.

Same in vHoF, really. Not a whole lot for the DPS to do. But both Trials require solid support players and good strategy. In vHoF if you have a main tank that can reliably handle Pinnacle Factotum's shade phase, and both of your tanks can handle the swaps on The Triplets, you're golden. First boss just requires purging, the Archcustodian is dead simple, and the Assembly General is a joke.

Obviously groups will have to spend some time getting everyone comfortable with the fights but, especially on PC with Raid Notifier and decent framerates ... they're just not that difficult.

And as for "geargating" ... it's all available on Normal. The +1000-ish max stam/mag of the Perfected versions of Relequen/Siroria are not a big deal. Advancing Yokeda is easier to farm on Normal. Mother's Sorrow is an overland set. Torug's is crafted. Ebon and SPC are easy to farm. Alkosh can be had on Normal. The hardest gear to get are Perfected Asylum staves and Maelstrom weapons.

It seems to me that people are afraid of the content for some reason. Everyone seems to think they need to be BiS gold geared with max CP and 50k skeleton parses to even attempt anything beyond Craglorn raids, but that's not the case at all. And hell, vAS+0/+1 and vCR+0 are easier than vMoL or vHoF. The Hard Modes are very difficult, but that's OK. Maybe people are just afraid to fail? I've spent hundreds of hours banging my head against vMoL and vHoF before getting clears. But there's nothing wrong with that. To me, that's the fun in the end game. Spending a month taking a group from "first time in vHoF" to pounding through Hard Mode without breaking a sweat is incredibly gratifying.

Oathunbound · July 2018

LiquidPony wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I agree with the sentiment of this thread, but let's be realistic here.

@LiquidPony is 100% right. The requirements for the hardest content are simply astronomical - the margin between victory and failure in ESO raids is so unnecessarily tight (mostly due to enrage mechanics). One subpar player can ruin an entire run and waste the time of three or 11 other people. Back when it was just craggy trials, a subpar player wasn't too much of an issue the objective was to learn through force when it came to roles; just do the content repeatedly until you & team git gud. Failing was rarely ever an issue, time to complete and score was though.

This did leave a schism, however. The endgame was simply not very hard, challenging or good at retaining players. So they introduced VMOL and trial HMs which dramatically changed the landscape of players entering the endgame. We ended up with 3 trials that scaled beautifully into veteran (VSO, VAA, VHRC) and one that is massively overtuned due to multiple enrage mechanics throughout the entire encounter (VMOL) that only scale in difficulty the further you go in leading to a very small margin of error.

As bad as a design decision that is, players gotta roll with it and due to such, have been parsing relentlessly since the introduction of VMOL. It hasn't helped that the average or casual endgame ready player that other content (which is done and completed far more frequently) is heavily dependent on this method of team selection which is the root cause of discord on the forums here and unrequited rage towards "elite" or more simply put, better players. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Even though I have a large disdain for the non-craggy trials, my largest gripe is the massive amount of geargating they are doing with them. Solid players, the guys in the 95-98% bracket like myself, are dropping out of PVE endgame because we need that gear to barely break the minimum raid requirements and even then with all the BIS stuff we just aren't elites - just good enough. There are a LOT of people in this boat and it is certainly frustrating to be there. This is easily evidenced by looking at the guild rosters for the top guilds and their relevant top LB scores. There is a lot of crossguild cooperation or membership and it's not doing anything but tightening as they deliver harder content with more gated gear. The TFS/Infal meta was the best meta because literally anyone could get that gear. Everyone could reach the ceiling gear wise and with just a little practice be good enough.

TL; DR. Craggy trials scaled exceptionally well in difficulty and loot but no one does that *** anymore so the requirements for them no longer exist in endgame guilds. VMOL vanilla a little too difficult. VHOF way too difficult. Everything else absolutely ridiculous. While "elite" players are the reason dummy parsing is a thing, they are not the cause and it's the only logical thing to do to ensure time is not wasted for them as they have wasted a fair bit on their own dummy parses themselves.

Meh. Not sure about all of that.

vMoL is my favorite Trial by a long shot. I don't think the difficulty is that high. I cleared it on PC a few weeks ago, and the average CP in the group was probably 400-450, with a tank that had never tanked that Trial before and a healer who had never even attempted vMoL before. 45 minutes, a couple of wipes, pad 5 burn on Rakkhat.

The DPS requirements aren't that high. First boss is easy. Rakkhat (non HM) is a straightforward fight. The Twins take some time to get comfortable with, but "move clockwise during conversions and if you have to switch during prayer phase" isn't all the difficult.

Same in vHoF, really. Not a whole lot for the DPS to do. But both Trials require solid support players and good strategy. In vHoF if you have a main tank that can reliably handle Pinnacle Factotum's shade phase, and both of your tanks can handle the swaps on The Triplets, you're golden. First boss just requires purging, the Archcustodian is dead simple, and the Assembly General is a joke.

Obviously groups will have to spend some time getting everyone comfortable with the fights but, especially on PC with Raid Notifier and decent framerates ... they're just not that difficult.

And as for "geargating" ... it's all available on Normal. The +1000-ish max stam/mag of the Perfected versions of Relequen/Siroria are not a big deal. Advancing Yokeda is easier to farm on Normal. Mother's Sorrow is an overland set. Torug's is crafted. Ebon and SPC are easy to farm. Alkosh can be had on Normal. The hardest gear to get are Perfected Asylum staves and Maelstrom weapons.

It seems to me that people are afraid of the content for some reason. Everyone seems to think they need to be BiS gold geared with max CP and 50k skeleton parses to even attempt anything beyond Craglorn raids, but that's not the case at all. And hell, vAS+0/+1 and vCR+0 are easier than vMoL or vHoF. The Hard Modes are very difficult, but that's OK. Maybe people are just afraid to fail? I've spent hundreds of hours banging my head against vMoL and vHoF before getting clears. But there's nothing wrong with that. To me, that's the fun in the end game. Spending a month taking a group from "first time in vHoF" to pounding through Hard Mode without breaking a sweat is incredibly gratifying.

^ This

I think its intimidating as most of the requirements people hear for certain vet trails is from the end-game progression groups and they are looking for the best of the best of the best to push leader board scores. I admit i got a 3mil test dummy just to see where i was dps wise. I was just under 30k in the MA armor and spriggans with a random bow and stormfist mhelm. Then after i got my endgame set i got up to 35-37k dps with using a non meta/non cheese rotation. I know if i practice more and use a more meta rotation i could prob break 40k but its nice to know where i stand. That's where i see the dummy as being useful to see where your dps is and ways you could improve your rotation. The fact its used as a gate to get into certain vtrail groups kinda makes seance since there is no other way to really see what you can do other then to throw you into the trail or run you through dlc dungeons and see how you handle yourself, but since they take more time a dummy parse is easier and faster.

TheDarkShadow · July 2018

I'm currenly in a social, local guild with very few people and on raid night we will take anyone that have 20k dps for vHRC and vAA, because if we rise the bar higher, we won't have enough player. Sometime we even fill with whoever online. It's not a quick clean run but we have fun together. If OP just want 1-2 hours relax after work, I'm sure you can find a guild like this.
I'm also in 2 other trial guilds. Most people join them are looking for a chance to run trials or even higher, hardmode and leaderboard trials. Since there are lots of raiders but only a handfull of leaders that have the experience and willing to lead, there need to be a way to pick 11 random players from 22 that want to join that night. Dummy parse just happen to be the easiest way to do that. Can a 30k parse player do better than a 40k parse player in a trial? Yes, but that 30k must run some open runs to prove himself first before the leader upgrade his rank to higher priority.
Different guild, different purpose, different requirements.