Zeni, are you aware that you have destroyed the game economy?

NeroBad · July 2018

XxCaLxX wrote: »

Here’s my only issue with it. I actually think it’s not a bad system but let’s say tommy and his friends have rich parents and each of them have a thousand bucks to waste so they sell crates or whatever other crown store item. A few friends could gather 20 million gold in no time. So they can now go out bid Johnny and his friends on a trader that they spent the last 6 months on collecting low dues and grinding for stuff to sell and raffle to make their bid. How is this not p2w?

It can happen, but for tommy to outbid a good spot those millions will be fast burning golds, becuase 6 to 10 people without trading experience (they needed to buy gold so it's very likely), they won't make the gold back maybe not 1% of it. So yeah they can play this fun gold sink game and make 500 people very sad for 1-4 weeks but after that they spent thousand of dollars for this fun. As it didn't happened often before the gift system altough there was a very reachable way to buy gold (not legal but easy), I would be surprised to see it occuring often from now.

I'm not saying this is a very good addition to the game, but I don't think it is harmfull.

jedtb16_ESO · July 2018

XxCaLxX wrote: »

Here’s my only issue with it. I actually think it’s not a bad system but let’s say tommy and his friends have rich parents and each of them have a thousand bucks to waste so they sell crates or whatever other crown store item. A few friends could gather 20 million gold in no time. So they can now go out bid Johnny and his friends on a trader that they spent the last 6 months on collecting low dues and grinding for stuff to sell and raffle to make their bid. How is this not p2w?

getting a trader for a week is hardly winning. especially if they have little or nothing to sell in it. probably the next week they loose it so it become pay to lose.

commdt · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

Allowing trading of crowns for gold.

I have heard several people say that is not "P2W", because crown items are only cosmetic.

However, this is neglecting to look at the other side of the transaction.

People who can open their IRL wallets and offer crown items for sale, are now able to afford anything they like - vet trial carries, guild kiosks, any boe gear they want, carries in dungeons with dungeon gear being exchanged for the limitless amount of gold now available to the IRL wealthy in the game - there are now many multi-billionaires in game, simply due to this one thing.

And it is destroying the economy, and destroying trading.

I wonder whether this thread will be allowed to stay up, but I would like to hear any comments.

You dont get gold out of space, and if not people with wallet, than someone else had it. Gold is just redistributing this way and it is healthy for the economy that gold made it to people who want to spend it. And despite i neither buy gold for crowns nor crowns for gold, I approve it. Just stop being jealous and relax.

Whats really destroying the economy is bot farming. I know these people, they have unlimited resource income, and ZoS are aware, but wont do a thing

Anotherone773 · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

Allowing trading of crowns for gold.

I have heard several people say that is not "P2W", because crown items are only cosmetic.

However, this is neglecting to look at the other side of the transaction.

People who can open their IRL wallets and offer crown items for sale, are now able to afford anything they like - vet trial carries, guild kiosks, any boe gear they want, carries in dungeons with dungeon gear being exchanged for the limitless amount of gold now available to the IRL wealthy in the game - there are now many multi-billionaires in game, simply due to this one thing.

And it is destroying the economy, and destroying trading.

I wonder whether this thread will be allowed to stay up, but I would like to hear any comments.

Actually they should have a direct crown to gold conversion. 500 crowns buys you 500k gold or something like that. Ive played other games that offered people ways to convert real life money into game money easily and it murdered in game money farmers nearly overnight.

XxCaLxX · July 2018

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

XxCaLxX wrote: »

Here’s my only issue with it. I actually think it’s not a bad system but let’s say tommy and his friends have rich parents and each of them have a thousand bucks to waste so they sell crates or whatever other crown store item. A few friends could gather 20 million gold in no time. So they can now go out bid Johnny and his friends on a trader that they spent the last 6 months on collecting low dues and grinding for stuff to sell and raffle to make their bid. How is this not p2w?

getting a trader for a week is hardly winning. especially if they have little or nothing to sell in it. probably the next week they loose it so it become pay to lose.

Outside of the main cities in alliances there are still really good traders. Holding a spot for a few weeks you can get down to bidding 1M or less to hold that spot. If someone comes in and bids 2m you lose, next week you up your bid to get it back. Maybe they bid more that week too. I agree it won’t last forever but who knows how much money they have to spend. All I’m saying is it’s an unnecessary cost for those that grind the right way. And yes I know ppl have been buying gold for years. I know of many top guilds on Xbox NA that hold their spots today because they’re scum that bought/buys gold. I just hate that there’s a legal system now that permits players to take a shortcut. Take away the trader side of it and I love that ppl can actually buy crown store items with in game currency.

Merlin13KAGL · July 2018

So, people having gold (regardless of source) and being able to buy things breaks the economy?

Are they snatching up everything and monopolizing the guild market somehow?

I don't see anyone shelling out that much $$$ for that many crowns to bother doing this. And buying or selling a horse painted with rainbows has zero effect on the game world, the economy, or one's ability to 'win..'

Aeslief · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

Allowing trading of crowns for gold.

I have heard several people say that is not "P2W", because crown items are only cosmetic.

However, this is neglecting to look at the other side of the transaction.

People who can open their IRL wallets and offer crown items for sale, are now able to afford anything they like - vet trial carries, guild kiosks, any boe gear they want, carries in dungeons with dungeon gear being exchanged for the limitless amount of gold now available to the IRL wealthy in the game - there are now many multi-billionaires in game, simply due to this one thing.

And it is destroying the economy, and destroying trading.

I wonder whether this thread will be allowed to stay up, but I would like to hear any comments.

I disagree, OP. Gold for crowns does not add new gold to the economy, and crown sellers’ cash is going directly to ZOS instead of to botters. I’m also inclined to believe that people selling crowns probably have something they want to spend gold on, rather than just accumulating gold as an end unto itself. If that is true (and it’s just a hunch of mine, I have no evidence for this), then that gold is either spent again with other players for in-game good or services, or invested in gold sinks such as housing or trader bids. That means that either more gold is trading between players (the opposite of destroying the economy) or is leaving the game entirely (which is also healthy for the economy).

I just don’t see any evidence that crown sellers have gained an advantage. Sure they are saving themselves some time or effort, but not much. Even gears and tempers are not hard to acquire - anyone can do it, not just people selling crowns. As to those who buy services such as power leveling or carries with their gold, in my opinion they are only cheating themselves. Maybe it’s just me who’d be too embarrassed to wear a title or skin I didn’t earn if my performance was clearly unworthy of it, but it still doesn’t give me an advantage of power or put me in the front of the queue or automatically double my harvest yield or any other tangible benefit.

Now if the time comes and there is strong evidence that all major trading locations are being indefinitely held and funded by crown sellers, I’ll certainly be willing to rethink my position.

Turelus · July 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Allowing trading of crowns for gold.

I have heard several people say that is not "P2W", because crown items are only cosmetic.

However, this is neglecting to look at the other side of the transaction.

People who can open their IRL wallets and offer crown items for sale, are now able to afford anything they like - vet trial carries, guild kiosks, any boe gear they want, carries in dungeons with dungeon gear being exchanged for the limitless amount of gold now available to the IRL wealthy in the game - there are now many multi-billionaires in game, simply due to this one thing.

And it is destroying the economy, and destroying trading.

I wonder whether this thread will be allowed to stay up, but I would like to hear any comments.

Actually they should have a direct crown to gold conversion. 500 crowns buys you 500k gold or something like that. Ive played other games that offered people ways to convert real life money into game money easily and it murdered in game money farmers nearly overnight.

It's better if you let the players buy something which they can sell in game for gold rather than just selling gold directly.

Selling gold directly means it has to be created and injected into the game (this isn't good for economies).

Letting players sell items from the Crown Store for gold means that two parties benefit from it without injecting new gold into the game.

Prof_Bawbag · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Being able to buy in game money for real life money doesn't harm the economy, it stimulates it.

There is no new gold being injected into the game, it's just being moved around the playerbase. This means more gold with more players rather than stored only with the richest ones who won't buy materials etc. because they rarely need them.
The people buying gold for crowns want that gold to spend, either on housing/NPC items (gold sinks) or on items via the traders from players (movement of funds, good for economy and trading).

Note that EVE Online has had the option to buy in game currency for real life money via their PLEX system for years and that game has one of the most complex and well functioning economies in MMO gaming.

Edit to make it read a little better.

There is no new gold coming in, but it is now being gathered in the hands of a few people who have a lot of IRL money and are selling crown store items to other players for gold. This is creating a massive imbalance in the economy.

I am very sorry you cannot see that.

Edit to add: In honesty, a system that allows wealthy players to buy gold packs but including more (and more varied, and more desired) gold sinks, might be preferable.

I wonder if you are playing the same game as me. Most of the gold was in the hands of the gold farmers and those running large trading guilds. Is this your real issue?

redspecter23 · July 2018

I'm using my stockpile of gold to buy gifts from the store I never would have bought as I don't buy crowns. The players I buy from now have loads of gold they put back into the system buying things I would never bother with. I see that as stimulating the economy. Maybe I'm wrong.

Turelus · July 2018

redspecter23 wrote: »

I'm using my stockpile of gold to buy gifts from the store I never would have bought as I don't buy crowns. The players I buy from now have loads of gold they put back into the system buying things I would never bother with. I see that as stimulating the economy. Maybe I'm wrong.

I can see why some people have issues with it, but at the same time for me it's letting loads more players have fun in their own way and giving the players with a lot of free time (and gold) like the unemployed or students get items from the crown store they never would have been able to before.

Unless it's abused for scamming I think it's a great thing for ESO.

JKorr · July 2018

XxCaLxX wrote: »

Here’s my only issue with it. I actually think it’s not a bad system but let’s say tommy and his friends have rich parents and each of them have a thousand bucks to waste so they sell crates or whatever other crown store item. A few friends could gather 20 million gold in no time. So they can now go out bid Johnny and his friends on a trader that they spent the last 6 months on collecting low dues and grinding for stuff to sell and raffle to make their bid. How is this not p2w?

Okay, they gather 20 million gold and outbid the other guy/guild. Traders stay "bought" for a week, right? The friends who outbid Johnny and Co. to get the trader, have they also gathered enough items/mats/tempers/whatevers to fill the trader slots? They going to make back their original bid plus more so they can do the whole exercise over in a week? Or have they simply thrown 20 million gold out the window to say up yours to Johnny and his friends, who haven't lost any gold or items and can make another bid and fill the trader slots?

Is there some secret Achievement for getting a trader or something? One for gathering "elebenty bazillion gold"? What on Nirn do you "win" if you get a trader [hopefully on a consistent basis] and sell stuff? What would they be paying to win?

redspecter23 · July 2018

Turelus wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I'm using my stockpile of gold to buy gifts from the store I never would have bought as I don't buy crowns. The players I buy from now have loads of gold they put back into the system buying things I would never bother with. I see that as stimulating the economy. Maybe I'm wrong.

I can see why some people have issues with it, but at the same time for me it's letting loads more players have fun in their own way and giving the players with a lot of free time (and gold) like the unemployed or students get items from the crown store they never would have been able to before.

Unless it's abused for scamming I think it's a great thing for ESO.

I agree that currently, with the items in the store, things are mostly fine. I do have concerns about the future. ZOS is watching the exchange rate on crown gifts to gold carefully. If they choose to balance the rarity of new items such that it becomes more viable for players with in game gold to buy that same item as a gift from another player instead of buying it for gold in game, then ZOS is warping their game to directly push players to the crown store as the most efficient way to acquire the item. The new motif is a potential sign of this abuse. I know that for me personally, I'll be looking to buy it as a gift as it will be easier and possibly cheaper to do so. This is the first motif I've seen this situation come up with. Up until now, it has been foolish for game rich players to buy motifs from the store if they can get them in game for gold instead. I hope this isn't a sign of things to come and massive rarity shifts across the board to push the store.

Turelus · July 2018

redspecter23 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I'm using my stockpile of gold to buy gifts from the store I never would have bought as I don't buy crowns. The players I buy from now have loads of gold they put back into the system buying things I would never bother with. I see that as stimulating the economy. Maybe I'm wrong.

I can see why some people have issues with it, but at the same time for me it's letting loads more players have fun in their own way and giving the players with a lot of free time (and gold) like the unemployed or students get items from the crown store they never would have been able to before.

Unless it's abused for scamming I think it's a great thing for ESO.

I agree that currently, with the items in the store, things are mostly fine. I do have concerns about the future. ZOS is watching the exchange rate on crown gifts to gold carefully. If they choose to balance the rarity of new items such that it becomes more viable for players with in game gold to buy that same item as a gift from another player instead of buying it for gold in game, then ZOS is warping their game to directly push players to the crown store as the most efficient way to acquire the item. The new motif is a potential sign of this abuse. I know that for me personally, I'll be looking to buy it as a gift as it will be easier and possibly cheaper to do so. This is the first motif I've seen this situation come up with. Up until now, it has been foolish for game rich players to buy motifs from the store if they can get them in game for gold instead. I hope this isn't a sign of things to come and massive rarity shifts across the board to push the store.

I think ZOS was pushing for that any way, look at how hard some motifs have become or were going to be (hello crate only motif) for that.
ZOS' marketing wants us to be buying rather than grinding, it's possible they'll be watching this for ways to make use of it.

MerlinPendragon · July 2018

There's nothing wrong with pay to win.

People who have made it in the real world should be able to exchange crowns for gold to get themselves past some of the grind. Hate to break it to some of the holy rollers out there, but that's the reality of the world we live in.

ZOS should make efforts to watch the exchange rate and alter course accordingly if need be... but this change brought some people from out of the shadows and that's a good thing.

Thestephenmcraeub17_ESO · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Being able to buy in game money for real life money doesn't harm the economy, it stimulates it.

There is no new gold being injected into the game, it's just being moved around the playerbase. This means more gold with more players rather than stored only with the richest ones who won't buy materials etc. because they rarely need them.
The people buying gold for crowns want that gold to spend, either on housing/NPC items (gold sinks) or on items via the traders from players (movement of funds, good for economy and trading).

Note that EVE Online has had the option to buy in game currency for real life money via their PLEX system for years and that game has one of the most complex and well functioning economies in MMO gaming.

Edit to make it read a little better.

There is no new gold coming in, but it is now being gathered in the hands of a few people who have a lot of IRL money and are selling crown store items to other players for gold. This is creating a massive imbalance in the economy.

I am very sorry you cannot see that.

Edit to add: In honesty, a system that allows wealthy players to buy gold packs but including more (and more varied, and more desired) gold sinks, might be preferable.

But the amount of gold being circulated in the game isn't limited. It's not a finite amount of gold that can be hoarded by one small group, and thusly affect the value for everyone else. It's digitally generated and infinite, which means that the problem you think you're seeing isn't a problem at all.

Most economies work on the assumption that there is a finite amount of wealth in a system, but since this is a video game and the rules are inherently different than IRL economies (i.e., currency is created at a constant and infinite rate, and there are processes in the game by which you can spend money and nobody on the other end of the transaction makes a gain [gold sinks, like housing and NPC merchants]), the problem in IRL economies of an imbalance in the distribution of wealth simply isn't a problem. Don't have enough money? You can make more without ever engaging in a real economic transaction with existing wealth in the system - in ways like stealing/fencing, selling to NPC merchants, completing quests, and mob drops - all of which do not require someone to lose wealth for you to gain it.

It WOULD be a problem if the game only had so many gold coins to be exchanged between players, but that is not the case. Trading crowns for gold is a system that makes literally everyone happy. The next step is just for ZOS to implement it in a way that protects both parties from being scammed.

EDIT: However, I don't believe that there should be a way to buy gold with IRL money outright. That would create a lot more in-game gold in a very short amount of time, and (at least initially) would create dramatic inflation for everyone, effectively tilting the system in favor of the IRL wealthy. I just think ZOS should create a way for players to trade gold for crowns without the potential for scamming, so that the player supply/demand model regulates the exchange rate of crowns and gold.

XxCaLxX · July 2018

JKorr wrote: »

XxCaLxX wrote: »

Here’s my only issue with it. I actually think it’s not a bad system but let’s say tommy and his friends have rich parents and each of them have a thousand bucks to waste so they sell crates or whatever other crown store item. A few friends could gather 20 million gold in no time. So they can now go out bid Johnny and his friends on a trader that they spent the last 6 months on collecting low dues and grinding for stuff to sell and raffle to make their bid. How is this not p2w?

Okay, they gather 20 million gold and outbid the other guy/guild. Traders stay "bought" for a week, right? The friends who outbid Johnny and Co. to get the trader, have they also gathered enough items/mats/tempers/whatevers to fill the trader slots? They going to make back their original bid plus more so they can do the whole exercise over in a week? Or have they simply thrown 20 million gold out the window to say up yours to Johnny and his friends, who haven't lost any gold or items and can make another bid and fill the trader slots?

Is there some secret Achievement for getting a trader or something? One for gathering "elebenty bazillion gold"? What on Nirn do you "win" if you get a trader [hopefully on a consistent basis] and sell stuff? What would they be paying to win?

No there’s no secret achievement. And as I stated before you don’t have to bid 20 million to get a trader. Don’t you think that the majority of ppl that started guild in the last couple years would have like to started with an excessive amount of gold? Idk if you or others are aware but it is much easier to recruit players to join a guild if you have a decent trader. You can get daggerfall for 1.5m easy and hold it. I don’t understand why it’s hard for anyone to see that if you have the cash then you have the advantage. Yes this is the case with anything and it won’t change but those that deny it are delusional. Let me try to paint it with crayons. If I farm and sell for a week to make 1M and you sell two 15 packs of crown crates for 1M in 5 minutes, did you not just pay to beat me!? Do you not have an advantage over me because you’re spending real money? This is p2w whether denying it or not. I’m not pushing for a change, I’m just stating facts.

Tandor · July 2018

What game economy? It only exists for the proportion of the players who trade. I haven't noticed any change in the prices paid by the NPC merchants and that's the only economy the rest of us experience

!

Anotherone773 · July 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Allowing trading of crowns for gold.

I have heard several people say that is not "P2W", because crown items are only cosmetic.

However, this is neglecting to look at the other side of the transaction.

People who can open their IRL wallets and offer crown items for sale, are now able to afford anything they like - vet trial carries, guild kiosks, any boe gear they want, carries in dungeons with dungeon gear being exchanged for the limitless amount of gold now available to the IRL wealthy in the game - there are now many multi-billionaires in game, simply due to this one thing.

And it is destroying the economy, and destroying trading.

I wonder whether this thread will be allowed to stay up, but I would like to hear any comments.

Actually they should have a direct crown to gold conversion. 500 crowns buys you 500k gold or something like that. Ive played other games that offered people ways to convert real life money into game money easily and it murdered in game money farmers nearly overnight.

It's better if you let the players buy something which they can sell in game for gold rather than just selling gold directly.

Selling gold directly means it has to be created and injected into the game (this isn't good for economies).

Letting players sell items from the Crown Store for gold means that two parties benefit from it without injecting new gold into the game.

Either way works. The point was there needs to be a real life money to gold route. That will make gold sellers less appealing.

omegatay_ESO · July 2018

To me at least it's like going to another country. I suppose you could go to the country and earn there form of money. Or you can exchange US cash for there currency. Same thing really, and are economies are not ruined over it.

JKorr · July 2018

XxCaLxX wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

XxCaLxX wrote: »

Here’s my only issue with it. I actually think it’s not a bad system but let’s say tommy and his friends have rich parents and each of them have a thousand bucks to waste so they sell crates or whatever other crown store item. A few friends could gather 20 million gold in no time. So they can now go out bid Johnny and his friends on a trader that they spent the last 6 months on collecting low dues and grinding for stuff to sell and raffle to make their bid. How is this not p2w?

Okay, they gather 20 million gold and outbid the other guy/guild. Traders stay "bought" for a week, right? The friends who outbid Johnny and Co. to get the trader, have they also gathered enough items/mats/tempers/whatevers to fill the trader slots? They going to make back their original bid plus more so they can do the whole exercise over in a week? Or have they simply thrown 20 million gold out the window to say up yours to Johnny and his friends, who haven't lost any gold or items and can make another bid and fill the trader slots?

Is there some secret Achievement for getting a trader or something? One for gathering "elebenty bazillion gold"? What on Nirn do you "win" if you get a trader [hopefully on a consistent basis] and sell stuff? What would they be paying to win?

No there’s no secret achievement. And as I stated before you don’t have to bid 20 million to get a trader. Don’t you think that the majority of ppl that started guild in the last couple years would have like to started with an excessive amount of gold? Idk if you or others are aware but it is much easier to recruit players to join a guild if you have a decent trader. You can get daggerfall for 1.5m easy and hold it. I don’t understand why it’s hard for anyone to see that if you have the cash then you have the advantage. Yes this is the case with anything and it won’t change but those that deny it are delusional. Let me try to paint it with crayons. If I farm and sell for a week to make 1M and you sell two 15 packs of crown crates for 1M in 5 minutes, did you not just pay to beat me!? Do you not have an advantage over me because you’re spending real money? This is p2w whether denying it or not. I’m not pushing for a change, I’m just stating facts.

There's "endgame" content that consists of "how fast can you make gold"? How, exactly did I "beat" you when I have no idea that getting billions of gold is some kind of race? Who keeps track? I don't think I've ever noticed any kind of leaderboards or ladders. I know there aren't any tangible rewards, but please, tell me what exactly, specifically is the in-game "prize" I've won because I 'beat' you and got the same amount of gold in the end? :hopes it will be a radiant apex senche mount that you can't buy for gold: What is the advantage I've just paid to win?

I really don't understand. There are players who have, either alone or with multiple guilds, accumulated hundreds of millions of gold. Good for them. They can, if they actually play the game instead of constantly farming/trading, still be a really crappy, totally suxxors player who can't fight swarming mudcrabs. Totally filthy swimming in gold rich, yes. But still a crappy player at the game part of the game.

Turelus · July 2018

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Allowing trading of crowns for gold.

I have heard several people say that is not "P2W", because crown items are only cosmetic.

However, this is neglecting to look at the other side of the transaction.

People who can open their IRL wallets and offer crown items for sale, are now able to afford anything they like - vet trial carries, guild kiosks, any boe gear they want, carries in dungeons with dungeon gear being exchanged for the limitless amount of gold now available to the IRL wealthy in the game - there are now many multi-billionaires in game, simply due to this one thing.

And it is destroying the economy, and destroying trading.

I wonder whether this thread will be allowed to stay up, but I would like to hear any comments.

Actually they should have a direct crown to gold conversion. 500 crowns buys you 500k gold or something like that. Ive played other games that offered people ways to convert real life money into game money easily and it murdered in game money farmers nearly overnight.

It's better if you let the players buy something which they can sell in game for gold rather than just selling gold directly.

Selling gold directly means it has to be created and injected into the game (this isn't good for economies).

Letting players sell items from the Crown Store for gold means that two parties benefit from it without injecting new gold into the game.

Either way works. The point was there needs to be a real life money to gold route. That will make gold sellers less appealing.

Agreed. Less gold purchased from 3rd parties means less bots as well (in theory) as the game becomes less profitable for them to work on.

griffkhalifa · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

Allowing trading of crowns for gold.

I have heard several people say that is not "P2W", because crown items are only cosmetic.

However, this is neglecting to look at the other side of the transaction.

People who can open their IRL wallets and offer crown items for sale, are now able to afford anything they like - vet trial carries, guild kiosks, any boe gear they want, carries in dungeons with dungeon gear being exchanged for the limitless amount of gold now available to the IRL wealthy in the game - there are now many multi-billionaires in game, simply due to this one thing.

And it is destroying the economy, and destroying trading.

I wonder whether this thread will be allowed to stay up, but I would like to hear any comments.

So name an example of the economy being destroyed. I haven't seen a single thing change.

greenmachine · July 2018

I don't reeeeally care about P2W, at least not as much as some apparently do. What I'm excited for is to have to carry a Pug full of Dro-m'Athra Destroyers through Wayrest I.

XxCaLxX · July 2018

JKorr wrote: »

XxCaLxX wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

XxCaLxX wrote: »

Here’s my only issue with it. I actually think it’s not a bad system but let’s say tommy and his friends have rich parents and each of them have a thousand bucks to waste so they sell crates or whatever other crown store item. A few friends could gather 20 million gold in no time. So they can now go out bid Johnny and his friends on a trader that they spent the last 6 months on collecting low dues and grinding for stuff to sell and raffle to make their bid. How is this not p2w?

Okay, they gather 20 million gold and outbid the other guy/guild. Traders stay "bought" for a week, right? The friends who outbid Johnny and Co. to get the trader, have they also gathered enough items/mats/tempers/whatevers to fill the trader slots? They going to make back their original bid plus more so they can do the whole exercise over in a week? Or have they simply thrown 20 million gold out the window to say up yours to Johnny and his friends, who haven't lost any gold or items and can make another bid and fill the trader slots?

Is there some secret Achievement for getting a trader or something? One for gathering "elebenty bazillion gold"? What on Nirn do you "win" if you get a trader [hopefully on a consistent basis] and sell stuff? What would they be paying to win?

No there’s no secret achievement. And as I stated before you don’t have to bid 20 million to get a trader. Don’t you think that the majority of ppl that started guild in the last couple years would have like to started with an excessive amount of gold? Idk if you or others are aware but it is much easier to recruit players to join a guild if you have a decent trader. You can get daggerfall for 1.5m easy and hold it. I don’t understand why it’s hard for anyone to see that if you have the cash then you have the advantage. Yes this is the case with anything and it won’t change but those that deny it are delusional. Let me try to paint it with crayons. If I farm and sell for a week to make 1M and you sell two 15 packs of crown crates for 1M in 5 minutes, did you not just pay to beat me!? Do you not have an advantage over me because you’re spending real money? This is p2w whether denying it or not. I’m not pushing for a change, I’m just stating facts.

There's "endgame" content that consists of "how fast can you make gold"? How, exactly did I "beat" you when I have no idea that getting billions of gold is some kind of race? Who keeps track? I don't think I've ever noticed any kind of leaderboards or ladders. I know there aren't any tangible rewards, but please, tell me what exactly, specifically is the in-game "prize" I've won because I 'beat' you and got the same amount of gold in the end? :hopes it will be a radiant apex senche mount that you can't buy for gold: What is the advantage I've just paid to win?

I really don't understand. There are players who have, either alone or with multiple guilds, accumulated hundreds of millions of gold. Good for them. They can, if they actually play the game instead of constantly farming/trading, still be a really crappy, totally suxxors player who can't fight swarming mudcrabs. Totally filthy swimming in gold rich, yes. But still a crappy player at the game part of the game.

Don’t really know where you’re going with this. My point was a lot of ppl had to grind to get a start on building a guild and now all you have to do is have a few hundred bucks to buy that gold to get started. I don’t really care how fast someone can kill a mudcrab??? And I guess you are just here to argue because I’ve answered your question at least 3 times. Either you have no idea how guild system works or you’re defending yourself because you’re doing exactly what I’m talking about. I’m not here to argue nor knock anyone that is making gold from selling items from crown store but to answer your question for the 4th time on how exactly did you beat me. If I actually play the game to make my gold and you buy your gold then you have a quicker more efficient way of getting ahead of me and most definitely will accumulate more gold than me. It’s a shortcut to the top and like everything else all you gotta have is the $.

Korah_Eaglecry · July 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Being able to buy in game money for real life money doesn't harm the economy, it stimulates it.

There is no new gold being injected into the game, it's just being moved around the playerbase. This means more gold with more players rather than stored only with the richest ones who won't buy materials etc. because they rarely need them.
The people buying gold for crowns want that gold to spend, either on housing/NPC items (gold sinks) or on items via the traders from players (movement of funds, good for economy and trading).

Note that EVE Online has had the option to buy in game currency for real life money via their PLEX system for years and that game has one of the most complex and well functioning economies in MMO gaming.

Edit to make it read a little better.

There is no new gold coming in, but it is now being gathered in the hands of a few people who have a lot of IRL money and are selling crown store items to other players for gold. This is creating a massive imbalance in the economy.

I am very sorry you cannot see that.

Edit to add: In honesty, a system that allows wealthy players to buy gold packs but including more (and more varied) gold sinks, might be preferable.

It's very unlikely people who are buying gold with crowns are doing so just to sit on it.

Even if that was the case and those people were buying all the gold up and not using it, how would that be any different from the people who horde it without spending real life money before this was an option?

All in all, it's hard not to interpret this as someone being very salty that they're missing out on a lot of gold.

Don't see what else is the point of the complaint tbh. As you say, there's no difference between a lot of gold sitting on market manipulators/flippers/trade overseers or on a bunch of crown sellers.

Is this one of those situations where you accuse someone else of something youre guilty of? Because the only one that seems salty is the guy that cant open his wallet and get in on the Crown/Gold exchange.

Soella · July 2018

Gold sellers always existed, so I don't think anything will really change.

Pretty much it is one more gold sink in the game, and ZOS is doing terrific job keeping ingame economy away from inflation.

I believe that they monitor situation, and hope that when they will be sure all looks OK, they create more transparent and convenient way to trade ingame gold for crowns, something like tradable tokens.

DivineFirstYOLO · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

There is no new gold coming in, but it is now being gathered in the hands of a few people who have a lot of IRL money and are selling crown store items to other players for gold. This is creating a massive imbalance in the economy.

I am very sorry you cannot see that.

Edit to add: In honesty, a system that allows wealthy players to buy gold packs but including more (and more varied, and more desired) gold sinks, might be preferable.

This is such a weak argument...i have 50 mil gold in game.. and I know a lot of people that have even more..where is the problem if I trade some of my gold to a new player who gifts me some nice looking items from the crown store?
Following your argument ("There is no new gold coming in, but it is now being gathered in the hands of a few people") the economy is already "imbalanced". Do your homework and get better at trading is my advice.

danno8 · July 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Being able to buy in game money for real life money doesn't harm the economy, it stimulates it.

There is no new gold being injected into the game, it's just being moved around the playerbase. This means more gold with more players rather than stored only with the richest ones who won't buy materials etc. because they rarely need them.
The people buying gold for crowns want that gold to spend, either on housing/NPC items (gold sinks) or on items via the traders from players (movement of funds, good for economy and trading).

Note that EVE Online has had the option to buy in game currency for real life money via their PLEX system for years and that game has one of the most complex and well functioning economies in MMO gaming.

Edit to make it read a little better.

Unfortunately it will also stimulate something else...more bots grinding for more gold since now they can trade it without fear of consequence and their potential customer base just increased to include everyone who wants to trade gold for RL money but didn't want to risk a ban.

Undeniably, this is going to cause an inflationary effect of some kind since goldsellers will be grinding more. That is how the new gold will be introduced into the game.

Turelus · July 2018

danno8 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Being able to buy in game money for real life money doesn't harm the economy, it stimulates it.

There is no new gold being injected into the game, it's just being moved around the playerbase. This means more gold with more players rather than stored only with the richest ones who won't buy materials etc. because they rarely need them.
The people buying gold for crowns want that gold to spend, either on housing/NPC items (gold sinks) or on items via the traders from players (movement of funds, good for economy and trading).

Note that EVE Online has had the option to buy in game currency for real life money via their PLEX system for years and that game has one of the most complex and well functioning economies in MMO gaming.

Edit to make it read a little better.

Unfortunately it will also stimulate something else...more bots grinding for more gold since now they can trade it without fear of consequence and their potential customer base just increased to include everyone who wants to trade gold for RL money but didn't want to risk a ban.

Undeniably, this is going to cause an inflationary effect of some kind since goldsellers will be grinding more. That is how the new gold will be introduced into the game.

It's normally very rare for legitimate players to run bot trains because the consequences for being caught and associated with accounts would be the loss of your account.

It's possible there will be more bots from gold sellers due to this, but I don't think the increase of ToS breaking activities by groups who don't give a damn about the game should be a reason to deny ToS abiding players access to good things.

If we're going to restrict new features or options based on how they can be exploited by RMT groups we'll be cutting a lot more than just crown store item trading.