Zeni, are you aware that you have destroyed the game economy?

Epona222 · July 2018

Allowing trading of crowns for gold.

I have heard several people say that is not "P2W", because crown items are only cosmetic.

However, this is neglecting to look at the other side of the transaction.

People who can open their IRL wallets and offer crown items for sale, are now able to afford anything they like - vet trial carries, guild kiosks, any boe gear they want, carries in dungeons with dungeon gear being exchanged for the limitless amount of gold now available to the IRL wealthy in the game - there are now many multi-billionaires in game, simply due to this one thing.

And it is destroying the economy, and destroying trading.

I wonder whether this thread will be allowed to stay up, but I would like to hear any comments.

Feanor · July 2018

Getting gold never was exactly hard in this game. If someone wants to pay RL money to have a shortcut to farming, the better for ZOS.

Nyladreas · July 2018

Idk... I'm happy I can buy anything I want for gold... And I don't really see any serious economy change.

If anything I've seen stuff sell for a bit more and that's great. As a trader I make way more. Gold isn't hard to get at all really.

EvilCroc · July 2018

You say "destroying economy" like it is something bad.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · July 2018

I do not understand why people are not allowed to buy in-game money with real money directly. Because this is what ZOS has recently done, but in a very complicated way that often results in scams.

LumbermillOverlord · July 2018

@Epona222 you know you can buy ingame gold on black market since launch, yes?
so that people can afford anything in game even before crown gift <-> gold system

Epona222 · July 2018

LumbermillOverlord wrote: »

@Epona222 you know you can buy ingame gold on black market since launch, yes?
so that people can afford anything in game even before crown gift <-> gold system

That was/is against TOS: trading crowns for gold in game since gifting is not against TOS, and Zeni have said it's ok. It's clear they just want more money coming in.

eso_nya · July 2018

Its a good thing.

Usually u either have a lot of irl money and no time to play, or not much irl money and alot of time to play. Being able to (legally, not w/ spambot) spending some irl money instead of needing to grind for hours (e.g. flowers or armor) just to be able to play the content u like to play is a fair tradeoff.

Should have integrated c.o.d. button into crownstore gifting to avoid scamming tho.

swippy · July 2018

yeah, we can buy whatever we feel like buying now. i can afford to be dead weight through vDSA ten times without batting an eye. i could go around and search out 3 players strong enough to carry me, and after finding enough people with enough confidence, hope tnat they aren't blowing smoke up me bum and can actually deliver. and whether they're lying or not, i still have to spend a bunch of time watching and waiting for these people to finish the content for me. i could also spend that same time doing something more fun, or making more money instead. that sounds like a terrible evening.

but something about doing that feels scummy (apart from the boredom). and if i were a person who'd buy my way through a game, i'd probably do it on a game where it wasn't so boring to do, or i'd be doing it on so many games in succession that i'd be a flash-in-the-pan of economic stimulus and not very harmful at all.

i think you're gonna have to make a stronger case if you want your readers to believe it's destroying the economy. it hasn't really been a problem on my megaserver.

Cave_Canem · July 2018

A fool and their money are soon parted. Those that buy their way to the top will often fail to achieve the player skill necessary to enjoy being there and leave after depositing their coinage in ZOS's bank; its good for the game.

The few that took a short-cut to end-game and then learned to play and stick around, well that can't be too bad for the game either.

I figure the net benefit weighs in a little on the plus side as their spending sprees to get gear, etc will be transitory by the nature of the limited levelling process.

Turelus · July 2018

Being able to buy in game money for real life money doesn't harm the economy, it stimulates it.

There is no new gold being injected into the game, it's just being moved around the playerbase. This means more gold with more players rather than stored only with the richest ones who won't buy materials etc. because they rarely need them.
The people buying gold for crowns want that gold to spend, either on housing/NPC items (gold sinks) or on items via the traders from players (movement of funds, good for economy and trading).

Note that EVE Online has had the option to buy in game currency for real life money via their PLEX system for years and that game has one of the most complex and well functioning economies in MMO gaming.

Edit to make it read a little better.

LumbermillOverlord · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

LumbermillOverlord wrote: »

@Epona222 you know you can buy ingame gold on black market since launch, yes?
so that people can afford anything in game even before crown gift <-> gold system

That was/is against TOS: trading crowns for gold in game since gifting is not against TOS, and Zeni have said it's ok. It's clear they just want more money coming in.

I know its against TOS
but also I know that buyer always safe
I don't know why but in this game Zeni banning only gold sellers, not buyers

Epona222 · July 2018

Cave_Canem wrote: »

A fool and their money are soon parted. Those that buy their way to the top will often fail to achieve the player skill necessary to enjoy being there and leave after depositing their coinage in ZOS's bank; its good for the game.

The few that took a short-cut to end-game and then learned to play and stick around, well that can't be too bad for the game either.

I figure the net benefit weighs in a little on the plus side as their spending sprees to get gear, etc will be transitory by the nature of the limited levelling process.

This isn't "My Readers" - this isn't my blog or something - it's a public discussion forum

LOL well done on editing your post, quick work

EDIT: Trying one more time to sort out the double post thing...

jedtb16_ESO · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

LumbermillOverlord wrote: »

@Epona222 you know you can buy ingame gold on black market since launch, yes?
so that people can afford anything in game even before crown gift <-> gold system

That was/is against TOS: trading crowns for gold in game since gifting is not against TOS, and Zeni have said it's ok. It's clear they just want more money coming in.

does that surprise you?

it is a business after all.

Epona222 · July 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Being able to buy in game money for real life money doesn't harm the economy, it stimulates it.

There is no new gold being injected into the game, it's just being moved around the playerbase. This means more gold with more players rather than stored only with the richest ones who won't buy materials etc. because they rarely need them.
The people buying gold for crowns want that gold to spend, either on housing/NPC items (gold sinks) or on items via the traders from players (movement of funds, good for economy and trading).

Note that EVE Online has had the option to buy in game currency for real life money via their PLEX system for years and that game has one of the most complex and well functioning economies in MMO gaming.

Edit to make it read a little better.

There is no new gold coming in, but it is now being gathered in the hands of a few people who have a lot of IRL money and are selling crown store items to other players for gold. This is creating a massive imbalance in the economy.

I am very sorry you cannot see that.

Edit to add: In honesty, a system that allows wealthy players to buy gold packs but including more (and more varied, and more desired) gold sinks, might be preferable.

Carbonised · July 2018

Turelus wrote: »

There is no new gold being injected into the game, it's just being moved around the playerbase. This means more gold with more players rather than stored only with the richest ones

Exactly. The amount of gold is the same, it's just being moved from a few people to a few more people.

Also, it might discourage gold selling from botters, which is actually a really great thing.

It's a rare case of win/win/win, those who sell crowns become gold millionaires, those who buy get the crown stuff they want without spending a real life dime, and ZOS of course gets their share with increased purchases of crowns.

Turelus · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Being able to buy in game money for real life money doesn't harm the economy, it stimulates it.

There is no new gold being injected into the game, it's just being moved around the playerbase. This means more gold with more players rather than stored only with the richest ones who won't buy materials etc. because they rarely need them.
The people buying gold for crowns want that gold to spend, either on housing/NPC items (gold sinks) or on items via the traders from players (movement of funds, good for economy and trading).

Note that EVE Online has had the option to buy in game currency for real life money via their PLEX system for years and that game has one of the most complex and well functioning economies in MMO gaming.

Edit to make it read a little better.

There is no new gold coming in, but it is now being gathered in the hands of a few people who have a lot of IRL money and are selling crown store items to other players for gold. This is creating a massive imbalance in the economy.

I am very sorry you cannot see that.

Edit to add: In honesty, a system that allows wealthy players to buy gold packs but including more (and more varied) gold sinks, might be preferable.

It's very unlikely people who are buying gold with crowns are doing so just to sit on it.

Even if that was the case and those people were buying all the gold up and not using it, how would that be any different from the people who horde it without spending real life money before this was an option?

Carbonised · July 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Being able to buy in game money for real life money doesn't harm the economy, it stimulates it.

There is no new gold being injected into the game, it's just being moved around the playerbase. This means more gold with more players rather than stored only with the richest ones who won't buy materials etc. because they rarely need them.
The people buying gold for crowns want that gold to spend, either on housing/NPC items (gold sinks) or on items via the traders from players (movement of funds, good for economy and trading).

Note that EVE Online has had the option to buy in game currency for real life money via their PLEX system for years and that game has one of the most complex and well functioning economies in MMO gaming.

Edit to make it read a little better.

There is no new gold coming in, but it is now being gathered in the hands of a few people who have a lot of IRL money and are selling crown store items to other players for gold. This is creating a massive imbalance in the economy.

I am very sorry you cannot see that.

Edit to add: In honesty, a system that allows wealthy players to buy gold packs but including more (and more varied) gold sinks, might be preferable.

It's very unlikely people who are buying gold with crowns are doing so just to sit on it.

Even if that was the case and those people were buying all the gold up and not using it, how would that be any different from the people who horde it without spending real life money before this was an option?

All in all, it's hard not to interpret this as someone being very salty that they're missing out on a lot of gold.

Don't see what else is the point of the complaint tbh. As you say, there's no difference between a lot of gold sitting on market manipulators/flippers/trade overseers or on a bunch of crown sellers.

swippy · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

Cave_Canem wrote: »

A fool and their money are soon parted. Those that buy their way to the top will often fail to achieve the player skill necessary to enjoy being there and leave after depositing their coinage in ZOS's bank; its good for the game.

The few that took a short-cut to end-game and then learned to play and stick around, well that can't be too bad for the game either.

I figure the net benefit weighs in a little on the plus side as their spending sprees to get gear, etc will be transitory by the nature of the limited levelling process.

This isn't "My Readers" - this isn't my blog or something - it's a public discussion forum

LOL well done on editing your post, quick work

EDIT: Trying one more time to sort out the double post thing...

neither me nor Cave have edited our posts, at the time of this posting. you seem confused. i'd suggest not worrying about figuring out this thread; rather re-examine the economics if they still concern you, and figure out how to apply the counter-arguments to your understanding.

alternatively, you could state a stronger case, or share your definition of "destroy"

Bodži · July 2018

More money to the ZOS, more and better development

ZOS so far did not give anything up for sale that would give advantage to buyers.

You even have eso+ events so people who have 0 DLC can get DLC monster helms.

ZOS is monetizing on ESO+ (certainly the biggest income for them), DLC and chapters. This will be a nice small side income for them and I am totally OK with it. If you want to spend your money on it, go ahead its yours.

Some would say that Jewelry is P2W, but it actually is not - just look at the prices of crafted golden jewelry. I would buy it only if I had 100+ millions of golds. You still have vendors and you still can grind/loot it.

starkerealm · July 2018

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

I do not understand why people are not allowed to buy in-game money with real money directly. Because this is what ZOS has recently done, but in a very complicated way that often results in scams.

Because of money laundering. You'll actually see this in MMOs with more lax enforcement. Someone will buy gold with a fraudulent card, then sell it (at a loss) to someone else, pocketing the clean money, and scampering off. When the investigating agency (of the original fraud) is in a different jurisdiction (read: country) from the MMO's developers, it can become functionally impossible to track where that money went. I think Brian Krebs has done an article on the subject, if you want to do some digging.

NeroBad · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Being able to buy in game money for real life money doesn't harm the economy, it stimulates it.

There is no new gold being injected into the game, it's just being moved around the playerbase. This means more gold with more players rather than stored only with the richest ones who won't buy materials etc. because they rarely need them.
The people buying gold for crowns want that gold to spend, either on housing/NPC items (gold sinks) or on items via the traders from players (movement of funds, good for economy and trading).

Note that EVE Online has had the option to buy in game currency for real life money via their PLEX system for years and that game has one of the most complex and well functioning economies in MMO gaming.

Edit to make it read a little better.

There is no new gold coming in, but it is now being gathered in the hands of a few people who have a lot of IRL money and are selling crown store items to other players for gold. This is creating a massive imbalance in the economy.

I am very sorry you cannot see that.

Edit to add: In honesty, a system that allows wealthy players to buy gold packs but including more (and more varied, and more desired) gold sinks, might be preferable.

I don't know what you mean under imbalance, but if you mean that Crown sellers will be gold rich guys who will sit on the money and will manipulate the economy I highely doubt it.

I can only guess, but according to some polls in the forum, there some people with ten millions who are sitting on it (or sell them at balck market who knows?) and a big majority who has less then half million. So if the richest are not black market gold sellers then those money are out of the economy mostly, but now they are ecouraged to deapart with their money for some Crown goodies, and those who buy it most likely spend their gold very soon and hopefully not all of it will land on the same gold rich people's pocket.

So that way it is likely that there will be more money circleing the economy, which makes the prices slower to going down, which depends on the side you are at (trader or casual palyer) can be good or bad. So it is imbalance in a way that it can alter the economy in someway (I don't feel a massive change in the past month), but I don't see why this is so bad.

I'm a trader with some millions which usually got spent with every story DLC. I'm no rich guy yet at IRL so I'm very neutral about this change.

visionality · July 2018

Epona222 wrote: »

Allowing trading of crowns for gold.

I have heard several people say that is not "P2W", because crown items are only cosmetic.

However, this is neglecting to look at the other side of the transaction.

People who can open their IRL wallets and offer crown items for sale, are now able to afford anything they like - vet trial carries, guild kiosks, any boe gear they want, carries in dungeons with dungeon gear being exchanged for the limitless amount of gold now available to the IRL wealthy in the game - there are now many multi-billionaires in game, simply due to this one thing.

And it is destroying the economy, and destroying trading.

I wonder whether this thread will be allowed to stay up, but I would like to hear any comments.

What makes you assume that ppl didnt pay real money for trial carries before?

People have been buying titles like "flawless conquerer" and trial skins for ages with real money. Some even pay farmers to level up new chars for them. Or look at the internet pages where accounts are being sold (e.g. playerauctions). $1000 real life money for an account with former-emp-character, several flawless conquerer characters, own guild bank etc.

Have you never wondered why some players have fantastic amounts of cp and fantastic titles and still play like complete noobs?

Olen_Mikko · July 2018

Still not p2w, as you can't get any better gear or weapon, with crowns or excessive amounts of gold.

starkerealm · July 2018

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Still not p2w, as you can't get any better gear or weapon, with crowns or excessive amounts of gold.

Not entirely true. You could finance upgrades to gold, or pay for crafted sets like Hunding's or Julianos. The issue is, gear is such a minor element of player performance in ESO (when comparing veteran players to inexperienced ones) , that the pay to win arguments are pretty shallow. Same goes for your racial pick. For example, if you wanted to argue that Imperials were P2W... okay, sure, kinda. Those stat bonuses are nice. But, it won't let you go out and win when you're up against a player who knows what they're doing.

Carbonised · July 2018

starkerealm wrote: »

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Still not p2w, as you can't get any better gear or weapon, with crowns or excessive amounts of gold.

Not entirely true. You could finance upgrades to gold, or pay for crafted sets like Hunding's or Julianos. The issue is, gear is such a minor element of player performance in ESO (when comparing veteran players to inexperienced ones) , that the pay to win arguments are pretty shallow. Same goes for your racial pick. For example, if you wanted to argue that Imperials were P2W... okay, sure, kinda. Those stat bonuses are nice. But, it won't let you go out and win when you're up against a player who knows what they're doing.

ESO is extremely P2W. Those who can pay for the best internet connections have great advantages in PvE and PvP against those of us who are left with *** WiFi and who are located far from the servers. Especially considering the usually *** performance in Cyrodiil any night of the week. Clear P2W.

(Ok this was sarcasm. At least somewhat..)

starkerealm · July 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Still not p2w, as you can't get any better gear or weapon, with crowns or excessive amounts of gold.

Not entirely true. You could finance upgrades to gold, or pay for crafted sets like Hunding's or Julianos. The issue is, gear is such a minor element of player performance in ESO (when comparing veteran players to inexperienced ones) , that the pay to win arguments are pretty shallow. Same goes for your racial pick. For example, if you wanted to argue that Imperials were P2W... okay, sure, kinda. Those stat bonuses are nice. But, it won't let you go out and win when you're up against a player who knows what they're doing.

ESO is extremely P2W. Those who can pay for the best internet connections have great advantages in PvE and PvP against those of us who are left with *** WiFi and who are located far from the servers. Especially considering the usually *** performance in Cyrodiil any night of the week. Clear P2W.

Carbonised wrote: »

(Ok this was sarcasm. At least somewhat..)

Oh...

Turelus · July 2018

Damn it. I was hoping for a really good Carbonised vs starkerealm debate, you two are far too often on the same page and civilised.

Carbonised · July 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Damn it. I was hoping for a really good Carbonised vs starkerealm debate, you two are far too often on the same page and civilised.

Hm... I'm not sure the forum mods necessarily agree on my civility

Slack · July 2018

1 million gold for a lvl10 training now!

Black Fredas is coming

XxCaLxX · July 2018

Here’s my only issue with it. I actually think it’s not a bad system but let’s say tommy and his friends have rich parents and each of them have a thousand bucks to waste so they sell crates or whatever other crown store item. A few friends could gather 20 million gold in no time. So they can now go out bid Johnny and his friends on a trader that they spent the last 6 months on collecting low dues and grinding for stuff to sell and raffle to make their bid. How is this not p2w?