How to fix fake dungeon roles: Dungeon Certification

Cêltic421 · July 2018

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The way to fix queue jumpers is to make dungeons 5 or 6 man.

it's the nature of the 4 man group with a total lack of tanks that causes the issue.

Can't be that hard to scale it.

I think this would be interesting to see happen. Have 4 dps 1 tank and 1 healer? Maybe have a 6 man dungeon for something like DSA

FakeFox · July 2018

kargen27 wrote: »

Gotta vote no. You are assuming what defines a role. You are also locking content behind a performance test. Both go against the play as you want style this game is suppose to represent.

I wouldn't mind the training concept but in no way should completing it be a prerequisite to being able to play content.

I don't like when players come in with a fake role and depending on the difficulty of the dungeon if I encounter a fake role I explain why I am leaving then I go.

I would like to see a change so a player can only queue as one role. Many players just queue as all three to get in fast. We have a couple of players in our guild that likes to do this. When I group with them and we need other random players I tell them pick the role they want to play or I will not queue with them. If it is a premade group I don't care as we all go in knowing what to expect.

Play as you want and meet no requirements stops were it negatively impacts the experience of other players. No?

ZOS is clearly defining the roles needed for dungeons by the role system and requirements to play certain mechanics. If a regular tank, healer and 2 DDs system would not be intended we wouldn't have a role based queue systems. In order for a grouping tool without player communication to work predefined roles are essential.

dtsharples · July 2018

It doesn't really need any additional coding.
It needs the player-base to wake up and do something about it themselves.

If a fake tank joins who isn't even taunting - Vote to kick.
If a healer joins who has no heal - Vote to kick.
If the DDs are light attacking everything - Vote to kick.

We need to start being less accommodating to people who are not performing the role they sign up for.
Just continuing to carry them / let them ruin dungeon runs is why it is so prevalent. If the players themselves had nipped this in the bud a long time ago, you wouldn't see it anywhere near as often as you do now.
And you can bet that it isn't the newer player who are abusing the system either....

Once these people have been on an hour long cooldown for dungeons they might start to change their approach - or just at least Attempt to perform the role they signed up for.

mikemacon · July 2018

Sadly, even with role certs, self-absorbed DDs who are far too important and awesome to wait in the DPS queue with the rest of us will get the cert and then queue as tanks on their DDs anyway.

And be proud about it.

Read these forums; DD prima donnas actually brag about fake-tanking so that their queues are shorter.

ItsNebula · July 2018

Read the title and I already can tell you’d be the type of DPS to cry that the “tank” is killing a boss in 5 seconds and you don’t have enough time to RP before the fight.

In this day and age of eso, just about every non DLC vet dung can be solod on a good DPS.
Get over it. Ques on DPS is already insanely long, so queing as tank and or healer as a DPS doesn’t hurt. Especially since every dungeon in the game non DLC can be ran with 4 DPS and if you can’t do that, you’re pretty bad.

DaveMoeDee · July 2018

edit: removed comment I had started but meant to not included.

Sophocles1 wrote: »

Why won’t people tank? I love my tank dk....why is it perceived to not be fun?

As a tank, I'm thinking "what's the problem here?" The main problem with pugging is low DPS. The tank is always fine in my experience! Sometimes i sucks to not get shards, but I can work around that. But low DPS? Stuff takes forever and you end up with a screen full of adds!

We need a system that stops those fake DPS!!!

So, OP, where is the certification for DPS? Why do tanks have to be competent but not DPS?

DaveMoeDee · July 2018

dtsharples wrote: »

It doesn't really need any additional coding.
It needs the player-base to wake up and do something about it themselves.

If a fake tank joins who isn't even taunting - Vote to kick.
If a healer joins who has no heal - Vote to kick.
If the DDs are light attacking everything - Vote to kick.

We need to start being less accommodating to people who are not performing the role they sign up for.
Just continuing to carry them / let them ruin dungeon runs is why it is so prevalent. If the players themselves had nipped this in the bud a long time ago, you wouldn't see it anywhere near as often as you do now.
And you can bet that it isn't the newer player who are abusing the system either....

Once these people have been on an hour long cooldown for dungeons they might start to change their approach - or just at least Attempt to perform the role they signed up for.

The vote to kicks also need to be done IMMEDIATELY on pledges. Before killing any required bosses. I feel like I keep ending up in veteran DLC dungeons where they are stuck after killing some of the bosses needed for me to get the pledge. Happened to me earlier today with Bloodroot Forge. Happened to me a few days ago in vWGT where they were stuck at, predictably, the Planar Inhibitor. I finished it with them for my 100k xp, but no keys for me.

In fact, I am more concerned about fixing being pulled into half done pledges. They need to fix that. At least, as a tank, I can say no thanks the second time that happens to me queuing for the same pledge and get in a group fast. For a DPS, they could spend all night getting pulled into half done groups and then waiting quite long for another chance.

I will generally try to clear things with weak groups, so long as, for example, the DPS isn't unknowingly taunting and I'm the only one in heavy armor and rocking s&b. If I see they are low CP and have low DPS on the first pull on a pledge, I will politely mention it and ask them if they were planning to do hard mode. They will usually say they aren't and I will politely leave the group.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · July 2018

dtsharples wrote: »

Once these people have been on an hour long cooldown for dungeons they might start to change their approach - or just at least Attempt to perform the role they signed up for.

Or switch to any other of the 14 characters they have and repeat...

DaveMoeDee · July 2018

mikemacon wrote: »

Sadly, even with role certs, self-absorbed DDs who are far too important and awesome to wait in the DPS queue with the rest of us will get the cert and then queue as tanks on their DDs anyway.

And be proud about it.

Read these forums; DD prima donnas actually brag about fake-tanking so that their queues are shorter.

Especially considering after certifying, they can respec as DDs.

dtsharples · July 2018

All it would take is for the dungeon ready pop-up notification to include a signal to say that the dungeon is already in progress.
And then you choose if you do want to accept or not.
Not accepting just means the queue continues. Accepting means you take on the role knowing the full story.
For someone farming an undaunted hat, or just wanting to finish a particular dungeon for undaunted XP, joining half way through a dungeon might actually be beneficial.

DaveMoeDee · July 2018

dtsharples wrote: »

All it would take is for the dungeon ready pop-up notification to include a signal to say that the dungeon is already in progress.
And then you choose if you do want to accept or not.
Not accepting just means the queue continues. Accepting means you take on the role knowing the full story.
For someone farming an undaunted hat, or just wanting to finish a particular dungeon for undaunted XP, joining half way through a dungeon might actually be beneficial.

If you are queuing for a specific dungeon, yeah. If I'm doing a random, I would need to know the dungeon and the party composition before knowing if I am willing to join mid-way.

Girl_Number8 · July 2018

Solo them~ That way you don't have to worry about monitoring people having fun. Meanwhile, I will take my horde of dps's and melt everything before the tutorial begins~

generalmyrick · July 2018

if you solo particular dungeon you could get an ACHIEVEMENT/CERTIFICATION and that would allow you to q for anything on that dungeon.

COOL IDEA!

ZOS_JesC · July 2018

Greetings, we've removed a few comments that were off topic and baiting. This is a reminder that calling other forum members trolls, is a violation of our forum rules. Please keep comments on topic and constructive, thank you.

kargen27 · July 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Gotta vote no. You are assuming what defines a role. You are also locking content behind a performance test. Both go against the play as you want style this game is suppose to represent.

Content is already locked behind a performance test. Why do you think so many groups wipe or can't clear?

This kind of thing just certifies some level of experience. Things like RDF wouldn't necessarily need to require it (it could be optional on the part of the person queuing), but I suspect it would go a long way towards acceptable possibilities.

Who would you rather want in your vet (possibly HM) queue, someone that's successfully performed the role 200 times, or someone that's tried to BS the queue and fake failed miserably 200 times?

It could even be a recommendation, not a requirement ~ a suggestion, if you will?

Play as you want != guaranteed clear as you want, and it never will, at least not at Vet and above.

Content is not locked behind a performance test. I can enter any dungeon or delve I wish. There is no guarantee I will finish the content but I at least get in the door so I can give it a try. This idea doesn't even let you in the door.

Who I prefer to run with doesn't matter in the least in this conversation. Since you asked though...I have friends and guild mates I can join and finish almost everything in the game. We go in knowing what everyone else is going to do and what will happen. Sometimes it seems to routine. For a break in the routine I like to queue for a random and I don't mind getting in a group that is going to struggle or possibly not finish. Those runs can still be fun.

I do want people to queue for the role they will be performing in the run. I don't care about their ability, if I did I would group with guild members. I just want them to attempt the role they queued for.

I never once mentioned clearing content. That is something you equated to entering content on your own. I am talking about going through the door. This idea would prevent you from entering the door.

kargen27 · July 2018

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

vonScuzzman wrote: »

The easy solution? How about when your character reaches level 50 you select your role - forever.

The simple fact that you select a role does not mean you will be able to do it. That is the source of the problem. And exactly what kids and trolls enjoy doing. There is no punishment.

As a matter of fact, it would be as simple as having a proper black list system in place: you won't be grouped with anyone who's blacklisted. At some point, those kids/trolls, even if playing their real role, won't group up with anyone and must group manually.

This idea sounds good but really isn't feasible. Queue times could become much longer. If it were a player initiated black list abuses would happen. Some players would just for the hell of it give everybody in their group a negative mark. In another thread someone suggested not being able to queue with people on your ignore list. That way you could just ignore the fake tank and never queue with them again. Same problem though, longer queue times as the game would have to check every player in the group and find other players on none of the ignore lists.

D0PAMINE · July 2018

Voting no, it would deffinatly be abused. Simply leaving a bad group is the most effective solution as it will ensure choosing a fake roll isnt a guarentee of a fast run. A pug is a pug.

LadyNalcarya · July 2018

I agree that there should be some ways to learn how to play. Dps rotation and aoe skills are 100% nessesary for vet dungeons, for example, but a lot of people just grind their levels at dolmens and dont know much about this.
I also think that showing cps was a bad idea. I mean, newbies just assume that they have to grind to cp750 and they will have 40k dps, but it doesnt work like this.
Imo fake healers are the least problematic, self-heals and shields are quite op at this point and healers arent really needed. fake dds, on the other hand, are a huge problem. If you have 2 good dds and a fake healer/tank, you can still clear the dungeon, unless its one of the newer dlc dungeons (and even then you have a chance). If you have a great non-fake tank and a healer, but both dds are just spamming light attacks... This won't work. You cant heal or tank bosses to death.
I think they should just make the information about dps, rotations, target dummies easily accessible in game. Adding combat metrics functions to the base would be a great idea, too.

Laquey · July 2018

ItsNebula wrote: »

Read the title and I already can tell you’d be the type of DPS to cry that the “tank” is killing a boss in 5 seconds and you don’t have enough time to RP before the fight.

In this day and age of eso, just about every non DLC vet dung can be solod on a good DPS.
Get over it. Ques on DPS is already insanely long, so queing as tank and or healer as a DPS doesn’t hurt. Especially since every dungeon in the game non DLC can be ran with 4 DPS and if you can’t do that, you’re pretty bad.

Oh HI!

Just though I'd let you know I don't really play DPS but when I do I don't really care what the "Tank" does unless it fails. That's what this system would be all about, minimising failure and encouraging success through failure. The ability for the dungeon to be cleared by 4 DPS depends entirely on the ability of the players involved and for new players and people with limited capability or skill maintaining the dungeon grouping roles is very useful.

Yes you're right queues on DPS are insanely long because of lack of tanks why not roll one, I can even give you a Mag NB heal tank spec which is a load of fun and very challenging to play which can clear pretty much all four toon content.

Queuing as a tank when you're a DD only and rolling into the ever expanding list of DLC dungeons does hurt though it hurts exactly 45 minutes of other peoples time and 15 minutes of yours when you re-queue + any amount of time used in said dungeon before ye realise it's impossible to finish.

Merlin13KAGL · July 2018

kargen27 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Gotta vote no. You are assuming what defines a role. You are also locking content behind a performance test. Both go against the play as you want style this game is suppose to represent.

Content is already locked behind a performance test. Why do you think so many groups wipe or can't clear?

This kind of thing just certifies some level of experience. Things like RDF wouldn't necessarily need to require it (it could be optional on the part of the person queuing), but I suspect it would go a long way towards acceptable possibilities.

Who would you rather want in your vet (possibly HM) queue, someone that's successfully performed the role 200 times, or someone that's tried to BS the queue and fake failed miserably 200 times?

It could even be a recommendation, not a requirement ~ a suggestion, if you will?

Play as you want != guaranteed clear as you want, and it never will, at least not at Vet and above.

Content is not locked behind a performance test. I can enter any dungeon or delve I wish. There is no guarantee I will finish the content...

Bolded part is your performance test.

If you have no chance in hell of clearing the content, call it whatever you like, but you're failing the check.

but I at least get in the door so I can give it a try. This idea doesn't even let you in the door.

You do, and you can. Literally walk your character with premade group up to the door and enter.

What you don't get to be allowed to do is queue up to enter said impossible content and drag three other people along for the ride.

You don't need RDF to access anything directly, and this requirement would be relevant only to RDF.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with expecting some level of competence. If you wish to go far out into left field with play as you want, with little chance of clear as you want, you shouldn't expect other people to remain tolerant about it.

In either case, do your role, and it's never an issue, is it? Using RDF implies you have some clue what your role is and how to perform it. Least important in norm, more important in vet, pretty much required with HM and a lot of the DLC's.

The cert would simply be an indicator that you can do what you're already saying (to three other people) you can do, the moment you check that little box.

DaveMoeDee · July 2018

Laquey wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

Read the title and I already can tell you’d be the type of DPS to cry that the “tank” is killing a boss in 5 seconds and you don’t have enough time to RP before the fight.

In this day and age of eso, just about every non DLC vet dung can be solod on a good DPS.
Get over it. Ques on DPS is already insanely long, so queing as tank and or healer as a DPS doesn’t hurt. Especially since every dungeon in the game non DLC can be ran with 4 DPS and if you can’t do that, you’re pretty bad.

Oh HI!

Just though I'd let you know I don't really play DPS but when I do I don't really care what the "Tank" does unless it fails. That's what this system would be all about, minimising failure and encouraging success through failure. The ability for the dungeon to be cleared by 4 DPS depends entirely on the ability of the players involved and for new players and people with limited capability or skill maintaining the dungeon grouping roles is very useful.

Yes you're right queues on DPS are insanely long because of lack of tanks why not roll one, I can even give you a Mag NB heal tank spec which is a load of fun and very challenging to play which can clear pretty much all four toon content.

Queuing as a tank when you're a DD only and rolling into the ever expanding list of DLC dungeons does hurt though it hurts exactly 45 minutes of other peoples time and 15 minutes of yours when you re-queue + any amount of time used in said dungeon before ye realise it's impossible to finish.

I feel like you are so obsessed with fake tanks that you haven't addressed fake DD. How will you get rid of fake DD? Being unable to tank or heal doesn't make you a DD. Fake DDs annoy me as a tank. I have been stuck with fake DDs in vet dungeons where damage was so low, we couldn't complete the dungeon. It is as big of a problem as fake tanks. Are you giving them a pass?

Laquey · July 2018

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

I feel like you are so obsessed with fake tanks that you haven't addressed fake DD. How will you get rid of fake DD? Being unable to tank or heal doesn't make you a DD. Fake DDs annoy me as a tank. I have been stuck with fake DDs in vet dungeons where damage was so low, we couldn't complete the dungeon. It is as big of a problem as fake tanks. Are you giving them a pass?

You clearly didn't read the OP so I'll quote it for you:

"For more advanced levels such as Veteran and Deadly Veteran it's not so much mechanics training but capability testing. Can the DPS meet a certain minimum requirement such as 15K for deadly veteran."

There was also proposed stepping of capability up to 30K DPS.

DD that can work with encounter mechanics and meet 30K+ dps are more than enough to do all dungeon content.

Next time feel less and read more.

DanteYoda · July 2018

The secret world did that... it didn't go down real well actually it made dungeons even more niche..

Laquey · July 2018

DanteYoda wrote: »

The secret world did that... it didn't go down real well actually it made dungeons even more niche..

This system is very different to the secret world system in that it doesn't prevent you from accessing the content if you really want to. You can queue with three of your friends and by pass the system using RDF or you can take yourself and x friends directly into the instance on whatever level you choose.

Content is not block merely a competence level is applied.

DanteYoda · July 2018

Laquey wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

The secret world did that... it didn't go down real well actually it made dungeons even more niche..

This system is very different to the secret world system in that it doesn't prevent you from accessing the content if you really want to. You can queue with three of your friends and by pass the system using RDF or you can take yourself and x friends directly into the instance on whatever level you choose.

Content is not block merely a competence level is applied.

Took me a two weeks to pass the DPS part of the secret world trials and that was considered the easiest

kargen27 · July 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Gotta vote no. You are assuming what defines a role. You are also locking content behind a performance test. Both go against the play as you want style this game is suppose to represent.

Content is already locked behind a performance test. Why do you think so many groups wipe or can't clear?

This kind of thing just certifies some level of experience. Things like RDF wouldn't necessarily need to require it (it could be optional on the part of the person queuing), but I suspect it would go a long way towards acceptable possibilities.

Who would you rather want in your vet (possibly HM) queue, someone that's successfully performed the role 200 times, or someone that's tried to BS the queue and fake failed miserably 200 times?

It could even be a recommendation, not a requirement ~ a suggestion, if you will?

Play as you want != guaranteed clear as you want, and it never will, at least not at Vet and above.

Content is not locked behind a performance test. I can enter any dungeon or delve I wish. There is no guarantee I will finish the content...

Bolded part is your performance test.

If you have no chance in hell of clearing the content, call it whatever you like, but you're failing the check.

but I at least get in the door so I can give it a try. This idea doesn't even let you in the door.

You do, and you can. Literally walk your character with premade group up to the door and enter.

What you don't get to be allowed to do is queue up to enter said impossible content and drag three other people along for the ride.

You don't need RDF to access anything directly, and this requirement would be relevant only to RDF.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with expecting some level of competence. If you wish to go far out into left field with play as you want, with little chance of clear as you want, you shouldn't expect other people to remain tolerant about it.

In either case, do your role, and it's never an issue, is it? Using RDF implies you have some clue what your role is and how to perform it. Least important in norm, more important in vet, pretty much required with HM and a lot of the DLC's.

The cert would simply be an indicator that you can do what you're already saying (to three other people) you can do, the moment you check that little box.

Bold text all you like. Doesn't change a thing. You are still equating finishing content with accessing content. That view is simply wrong. If you "expect" some level of competence maybe random groups isn't your thing. The random group finder caters more towards the new players that might not have the option of preformed groups. The random group finder when you are lucky enough to get a good group is a great way for a new or inexperienced player to learn the dynamics of the game.

The biggest problem with the random group finder is to many people using it suffer from varying degrees of elitism. Your idea supports that elitism by requiring checks before people are allowed to group with said elitists.

"and this requirement would be relevant only to RDF"

Exactly. You are locking something behind a requirement. Your forcing a performance test before they are even allowed to participate. If a player finds they are in a group with someone they feel isn't up to their standards they can opt out. Very easy to do. No need to set up some arbitrary check.

"In either case, do your role, and it's never an issue, is it?"
If people did their roll now there would also be no issue. Your idea doesn't force people into a role. It forces them to spend a few minutes taking some kind of test so they can then go back to taking advantage of how the queue works. Your idea doesn't fix the problem and punishes players that are not abusing the queues.

All using random dungeon finder implies is that you want to run a dungeon and are willing to group with random players to do so. It implies nothing about skill or lack of skill. Again if you expect a certain level of skill maybe the random queue isn't for you. Random means exactly that, you don't know what you are going to get.

I do agree that people who queue for a role they have no intention of running are lower than skeever dung but your idea doesn't address that problem.