You play your way, I play mine.

No, you are not alone. Raid slots are competitive and as a result of such ESO players have created a meritocracy.

The 12 man raid cap is one of the most limiting factors in the game ATM.

I think the number of players who are serious about end game content is a small percentage of the players in ESO - albeit well-represented on the forums here.

I very much enjoy the 'freedom' of avoiding end game. All my characters are CP750(+) but their interests do not lie in vet content. They happily savor sunsets in Auridon, chasing butterflies, running their horses through the beach surf, etc. When it comes to fighting, they can solo most WBs and confidently pug normal dungeons because its fun.

My healer is a good example. Though she's a well-trained magplar healer, because she has no interest in end game, she is happily one of the smallest healers on the battlefield (Bosmer) and does not feel obliged to wear SPC.

Your post kinda makes me happy with my choices, though I'm sorry to hear you're not enjoying your game.

Wanna play with the best you've gotta practice like the best, similar to real life.

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

SupremeRissole wrote: »

Wanna play with the best you've gotta practice like the best, similar to real life.

That’s why I save my practicing for real life, where things matter. And why I’ve gotten rid of ESO; your comment in fact opened my eyes to it, so I thank you.

So you have quit ESO but are ranting on ESO forums... good logic champ

What's so absurd about the idea that you have to practice if you want to become good? The harder something is earned the more rewarding it is. Completing the hardest content in the game or making it to the top of the leader boards is a lot of fun for me and many people I know. And that also is what makes the way there fun and worth it, even if it sometimes is tedious and frustrating. It is just like any real life sport.

As far a dummy destroyers go, im one of them and have reached my own personal ceiling of 42.5 with my pet sorc, I could get more doing with the meta players do but I am happier playing this way. The time spent practicing has a secondary reason, it is to burn into muscle memory a rotation that allows for more dps than just attacking to attack.

In many veteran trials, there are bosses where its a dps race against mechanics and the more you are able to complete your rotation, the better for the overall group.

As far as complaining about that being a gatekeeper, the parse shows the guild that you are committed to end game content and many trials guilds exist that accept lower numbers. The small percentage that hits insane numbers are also the only ones who can complete some of these more difficult hard mode vet trials because the damage needs to be there.

Everyone has a way of playing this game, and the people who play to do HM Vet trials are allowed to play their way as well.

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

SupremeRissole wrote: »

Wanna play with the best you've gotta practice like the best, similar to real life.

That’s why I save my practicing for real life, where things matter. And why I’ve gotten rid of ESO; your comment in fact opened my eyes to it, so I thank you.

i suspect the mindset of wanting to accomplish difficult things without putting in the utmost effort would be pretty pervasive throughout a person's daily life no matter what they're doing, has nothing to do with gaming really.

there are actual casual players who couldnt care less about end game content and can keep themselves entertained no matter what. Then there are players who claim to be casual but constantly dream about game achievements, which quite frankly makes no sense.

but hey good luck in your RL practices hope you succeed

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

SupremeRissole wrote: »

Wanna play with the best you've gotta practice like the best, similar to real life.

That’s why I save my practicing for real life, where things matter. And why I’ve gotten rid of ESO; your comment in fact opened my eyes to it, so I thank you.

Okay see ya.

I'll never understand the whole "gaming should require no effort" mentality. Must be like the difference between people who passively watch TV all day versus people who actively challenge themselves and learn new skills through their hobbies.

I've been playing guitar since I was a child. I practice speed scales and repetitive techniques to improve my skill so that I can can play more difficult music. Nothing wrong with that.

I play ESO. I practice rotations and dummy parses to improve my skill so that I can play more difficult game content. Nothing wrong with that.

Maybe don't try to play endgame PVE content if you are against putting in effort to beat a challenge. And try not to get too salty that people with a different mindset than you exist.

Dummy parses are a tool. For those of us on console, they're the only way to actually check our dps and compare different setups. We don't have those fancy pc addons that give you a detailed breakdown after every fight. Target dummys are also a great way to practice your rotation in a low-pressure encironment.

That said, if you don't like using them, don't. They're not required. I don't play with people who demand DPS tests because they're usually elitist snobs. I've never broken 20k on a skeleton parse and I can still clear vet content, solo world bosses, and two-man most vet dungeons with my spouse. (Who has only broken 20k once on an execute parse, rather than a full one.)

We still find guilds with experienced players that are willing to run vet dungeons and trials with us. I'm sure you can too.

There's nothing wrong with some competition.
There nothing wrong with some achievements being attainable only by a few, who put the time and effort to it.
Hard modes/speed and no death runs exist for that reason.
There are also leader boards, "permanents", weekly...

But there is something really wrong when the "above average" player - and I am not talking about the guy that wants to be a stam dps with a resto staff or whatever - does less than half the DPS than the elite guy, all while having researched for a good build, put the time and effort to grind for the gear for it, upgraded that gear to max level (which also requires time), having a good knowledge of the game and even a good "raid awareness" .

Yes, there should be a difference between an excellent player and a "above average" good player, but not in the magnitude that the game is seeing right now.
This can not be healthy for the game at all.
ESO used to have a nice and helping community but at this point the level of toxicity is rising way too fast.

If I was developing this game, I would put enrage mechanics on Bosses when they are burned faster than intended (and not the other way around). Right now what we see is excellent players skipping the mechanics that were meant to challenge them, due to the abnormal levels of DPS that are achieved and thus clearing the content designed for them on release day.
This is not a normal situation and needs to be addressed asap, IMHO.

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Training Dummy’s have taken on some mythical status in the game now. They serve as the gatekeeper to end-game content, a source of bragging fodder used to determine player skill, and now countless players spend hours “practicing” on them to achieve miniscule increases.

What’s happened to the game?

What was once relegated to PTS has become an almost dominating activity in the game. The concept of players “practicing”in a video game is almost nauseating. Before, practice was actually doing content, with cursory dps tests on real live enemies occurring infrequently, with a fraction of the importance placed on it now.

Changes to the game have increased the dps ceiling, but content hasn’t changed in difficulty with player changes, just the belief that it has. I’m guilty of it too. I’ve spent hours in front of the dummy, hitting high numbers after countless potions and an absurd amount of time. For what? There is little if any enjoyment in doing so, but end-game guilds now require those top % numbers for you to actually participate. I’ve drawn more and more away from ESO as a large amount of content is devolved to FarmVille. In one guild I’m in, in addition to the top numbers, you have to use very specific gear to join.

Am I alone in seeing the absurdity of all this? The whole of the game relegated to non-stop farming to get gear needed to perform countless DPS parses to then, all for a laughably small % of that time doing content for fun. RNG has become life.

Pushing the highest numbers possible is playing to some people man.

Additionally people practice with the intent of understanding how to get the most damage out of thier class. That often doesnt trandlate to a trial fight but it shows to the group that that individual does understand how to perform thier role to a measurable standard given the opportunity.

So regardless of the perpetual 'a dummy is not the same' argument there IS a correlation to the performance of a dpser who can achieve high numbers on a dummy parse, compared to someone who cant perform high numbers on a dummy parse, within a trial scenario.

Again, pushing numbers IS playing to some people. Let it go.

usmcjdking wrote: »

No, you are not alone. Raid slots are competitive and as a result of such ESO players have created a meritocracy.

The 12 man raid cap is one of the most limiting factors in the game ATM.

CultOfMMO wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

SupremeRissole wrote: »

Wanna play with the best you've gotta practice like the best, similar to real life.

That’s why I save my practicing for real life, where things matter. And why I’ve gotten rid of ESO; your comment in fact opened my eyes to it, so I thank you.

i suspect the mindset of wanting to accomplish difficult things without putting in the utmost effort would be pretty pervasive throughout a person's daily life no matter what they're doing, has nothing to do with gaming really.

there are actual casual players who couldnt care less about end game content and can keep themselves entertained no matter what. Then there are players who claim to be casual but constantly dream about game achievements, which quite frankly makes no sense.

but hey good luck in your RL practices hope you succeed

You completely missed the point of my post. I’m never said I didn’t understand the necessity of testing someone’s abilities. In fact, I’d be concerned if someone hired me without an interview; it speaks to the makeup of your soon-to-be coworkers. But when I say dummy parses are life, I mean they’ve gone far beyond a simple “resume” for guilds. They have become THE benchmark in all things. “What can you hit,” “what are your parses like,” “you won’t maximize dummy parses like that.”

I get the desire to “brag” in the game. People want to stand out from the masses somehow. But it’s become, at least for a vast majority of players I know, the guiding motivation behind playing. I feel bad, because I remember when they had fun playing, and now when they describe “sitting in front of a dummy for hours” they sound just exhausted and not even a hint of enjoyment.


I know this is something endemic to all MMO’s, so my feelings I think are just a self-realization of how destructive these games can become. I love single-player games, because the concept of “keeping up with the Jones’” isn’t a factor. But the design of ESO, and WoW before it and Everquest before that, capitalize on that aspect. It’s brilliant, really. But it’s also why players, once firmly in the grips of this feverish desire, are blind to the quality assurance that most entertainment has to adhere to to be successful.

Summerset was bad. The quests were oversimplified busy work (Psijic line was one of the best examples of this). The new raid really surprised me. Compared to trials like MoL and HoF, this one had one boss fight that was copy/pasted 3 times. Gone were the grand set designs, the feeling of progression, the nuances that separated trials from simply farming endlessly. The future of this game, and those that come after, will all follow this formula. It’s been refined, and made to draw the most fleeting dopamine response (like any drug). Add in the feedback loop of your ego being affected by people’s reactions to your dummy numbers, and we’ve lost what made this game fun along the way.

Well in my personal experience, those who brag about their dps and go boasting, sometimes even inviting me to show me their dummy parses are dense as concrete.
No mechanical understanding what so ever, always spitting in their Mike, blaming the healer or tank for failure.
I guess that's why they demand dps parses, it's easier to learn your rotation and burn trough a boss skipping the mechanics, with a someone that's performing in the same brain on autopilot way, than to actually react to the mechanics.

I'm not top tier dps, 36k being my highest parse, but I have cleared all vet content without practicing on a dummy regularly, because frankly I don't have the time or motivation at the end of the day eso is still just a game.

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

BaneOfBattler wrote: »

You are brave by speaking by the majority of players who just play for fun even doing vets and endgame stuff.

This message you created was directed towards the most toxic and manipulable by 3rd party opinions/influencers/hype/minmaxers/tryhards. Leading to a no brain community guided by those mentioned before. I'm sorry if i offend someone, just speaking facts.

The parse thing has become as popular as back in the day of wotlk gearscore addon; or day present neverwinter gearscore in game attribute measurement.

The dps parses trend has to go, it will only make us go somewhere we wont like, and then these tryharders with their parses will leave the game because of a new grind/farming items/worse rng could happen because of so many players reaching so much dps will just tell devs to increase the "challenge" and thus forcing other players with lives and jobs to do x task for x time. Simply because some guys wanted to make the vet content easy.

Sometimes the best is not always the best, and sometimes easy is not always fun.

Parsing has to go, practicing in a mmo is ridiculous, dummies doesnt make you dodge red areas, doesnt hit u. Your dps parse is a self reassuring tool for the insecure dps, and it has to go. Period.

Thank you for also seeing the absurdity about “practicing.” Unless you’re a professional gamer making money, the idea of someone practicing in a video game otherwise is just sad. Do people go on Call of Duty and sit at the firing range all day? Playing the game IS practicing. In Destiny, you go on missions and such where you kill enemies and complete the goal. Then, you go on the raid events and do the same thing. You’re prepared for this part of the game because in plahing the game, you have prepared.

RNG is insidious. Theorycrafters release what’s BiS, and everyone then clamors for this rare much sought after gear. The game then BECOMES a never ending farm. And that plays right into developers hands.

If you want to make dummy parses value added, make them challenging. The dummy is a combat dummy, and you have to dodge AoE’s, direct damage, and snare like effects. Add in a couple virtual bodies around that you need to rez in a certain amount of time or you fail. In between all this movement/blocking/rezzing, you dps the dummy. At the end of a timer, you’re given a score -based on how many attacks you avoided, how fast you rezzed, how much damage you did. Think akin to the Xmen Danger Room. THEN you’d actually be practicing, while playing something at least ‘resembling’ the game.

You know, noone forces you to practice by doing dummy parses. You have all the freedom to practice or not to practice as much as you want on either the dummy or actual bosses. Noone cares how you do it as long as you get the job done about as well as the other 7 DDs you wanna play with.
Requesting to remove dummies from the game because it can give people an edge who actually wanna put effort and time into parsing is the real absurdity here. Not that you are given the option to practice that way.

edit: And if you actually think that dummy parses have no real value because no mechanics then what exactly is your problem? Just leave us moronic dummy parsers alone and do your real and challenging training on whatever mechanically loaded fight you want.
What you describe there, a dummy that moves and does mechanics and after beating it you get a score based on speed and so on, it's called vMA.

Arciris wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with some competition.
There nothing wrong with some achievements being attainable only by a few, who put the time and effort to it.
Hard modes/speed and no death runs exist for that reason.
There are also leader boards, "permanents", weekly...

But there is something really wrong when the "above average" player - and I am not talking about the guy that wants to be a stam dps with a resto staff or whatever - does less than half the DPS than the elite guy, all while having researched for a good build, put the time and effort to grind for the gear for it, upgraded that gear to max level (which also requires time), having a good knowledge of the game and even a good "raid awareness" .

Yes, there should be a difference between an excellent player and a "above average" good player, but not in the magnitude that the game is seeing right now.
This can not be healthy for the game at all.
ESO used to have a nice and helping community but at this point the level of toxicity is rising way too fast.

If I was developing this game, I would put enrage mechanics on Bosses when they are burned faster than intended (and not the other way around). Right now what we see is excellent players skipping the mechanics that were meant to challenge them, due to the abnormal levels of DPS that are achieved and thus clearing the content designed for them on release day.
This is not a normal situation and needs to be addressed asap, IMHO.

If you punish players for being good you'll see what's left of the end-game trial community disappear. Also if you narrow the skill gap too much people will also leave, some people actually like the challenge.

I know people whine about toxicity but I've almost never see it myself and I spent most of my time in-game running vet trials.

Afraid of a challenge, are you?

I wasn't proposing to punish players but rather to offer them new and exciting challenges.
Clearing "the hardest content of the game" on release day is not a normal situation: it didn't happened with vMA nor with vMOL for example.
Players who successfully complete that level of challenge with no death - an enraged boss due to very high dps numbers - should get a shiny tittle and reward (skin, pet, mount, whatever): It could be "insert Boss name here" Crusher (or whatever other fancy name).
It just adds another tier of difficulty, with a different approach to what difficult and challenging means.

Lastly, i won't see any low end of the spectrum players leave just because there's a closer gap between players than the absurd gigantic gap that exists currently. The challenge and drive to push to be better will still be here, even if it is to gain "only" 5k dps. Just look at min/maxing guys pushing to get that extra 0.3% more dps.

I do understand that there is an elite protecting their privileges and exclusivity, but, no worries, they'll still have their edge no matter what. It'just doesn't have to be absolutely crushing - because that's bad for the game.

Can you explain better what you are talking about? With examples and numbers please? I wonder what levels of experience, gear, CP you are comparing here.