rimmidimdim wrote: »

It's not the healing of heavy armor, nor the fact that medium need a rework that makes you think heavy is better than medium. It's the fact that there are so many skill in the game now that you can't dodge. That's it. It has ruined medium armor. Why dodge when you can't? It's pointless. Put on heavy and survive at least. That's all. Cheers.

This is true but I think they've found the sweet spot for what is dodgeable and what is not.

With that said, they kinda went too far with making dodgeroll an RNG chance vs melee attacks - they need to undo this to make roll more reliable.

Also, IMO remove the sneak passive and grant -8% damage taken from AoE effects during dodge roll.

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Medium should have snare immunity passives and shuffle should be to remove roots. Healing isn’t necessarily better in heavy because you can have about 3500-3600 unbuffed in medium. Healing scales off weapon so you’re good in That department. If anything you’re just a little Tankier.

If you’re worried about healing back bar powered and use lingering health pots.

thats what I am getting at though. Theres no real reason to pick medium over heavy other than sprint speed and dodge roll reduction. As far as sustain and healing theyre about the same, I do notice my healing is better in heavy mainly from other targets healing me for more. And I would totally be cool with the idea of lingering health pots if I didnt use most of my stam on defense during fights.

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Biggest draw back with medium is sprinting. I have 2k+ stamina regen but if i sprint for 2 seconds i loose a regen tick. Thats alot more stamina then just running heavy and not sprinting

Right! So maybe they increase all the passives slightly to help it look better? And at this point I think shuffle is basically useless if anything i run elude/FM

Millz wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I don't even bother with healing on my medium builds, not really. Sure I have vigor and FM/rally, but that's it.

For medium my only real survivability comes from high offensive capabilities

I can get behind this but its difficult to cut into tankier people with good defense offense. I feel its hard to sway a fight even when done correctly for you to be offensive in medium. And I think shuffle is basically useless at this point cost way to much and rng to protect me? Would love to see this skill reworked into something in the lines of anulment. No rng just morphs with either stronger shield or utility.

That's a pretty solid idea... But don't let ZoS see it, they literally can't do ideas given to them unsolicited. I absolutely agree about shuffle, the duration is way too short, I'll always pick FM before shuffle.

usmguy1234 wrote: »

I think the biggest issue is that sets like ravager/ truth/veiled/fury exist which give heavy wearers the option to have insane burst potential as well as healing. Add this to the tanky nature of heavy armor and you've got the current situation. I wouldn't expect to see things change when the best damage sets are locked under heavy armor.

Nope, that is not an issue. You can wear those sets in medium now.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

I think the biggest issue is that sets like ravager/ truth/veiled/fury exist which give heavy wearers the option to have insane burst potential as well as healing. Add this to the tanky nature of heavy armor and you've got the current situation. I wouldn't expect to see things change when the best damage sets are locked under heavy armor.

Nope, that is not an issue. You can wear those sets in medium now.

I think you mean you can change the jewellery to robust? If you wear the armor, it's still heavy weight. I'm just saying that much damage with tanky passives causes a lot of the issues. You shouldn't be able to eat that much damage and drop a dawnbreaker that kills several people. If zenimax clearly established what the armor weights are meant to do a lot of the issues would go away. Light and medium should be for dps and heavy for tanking. If you mix say heavy and medium you should be tanky and do damage but not as tanky or damage dealing if you were wearing just purely one weight. The fact that stam wardens can run fury along with 7th legion and have 5+k weapon damage 30+k stamina with heavy armor resists and healing is utterly broken.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

I think the biggest issue is that sets like ravager/ truth/veiled/fury exist which give heavy wearers the option to have insane burst potential as well as healing. Add this to the tanky nature of heavy armor and you've got the current situation. I wouldn't expect to see things change when the best damage sets are locked under heavy armor.

Nope, that is not an issue. You can wear those sets in medium now.

I think you mean you can change the jewellery to robust? If you wear the armor, it's still heavy weight. I'm just saying that much damage with tanky passives causes a lot of the issues. You shouldn't be able to eat that much damage and drop a dawnbreaker that kills several people. If zenimax clearly established what the armor weights are meant to do a lot of the issues would go away. Light and medium should be for dps and heavy for tanking. If you mix say heavy and medium you should be tanky and do damage but not as tanky or damage dealing if you were wearing just purely one weight. The fact that stam wardens can run fury along with 7th legion and have 5+k weapon damage 30+k stamina with heavy armor resists and healing is utterly broken.

As I said countless and countless times, fury+seventh legion requires you to tank extreme amounts of hits to fully proc.(we're talking about 25 crits for fully procced fury to reach that ''5k weapon damage) , If those sets are so overperforming, why is cyrodiil full of magicka raids, full of magsorcs and stamblades? Your imaginary world differs from the actual reality of cyrodiil.

And that reality is that Fury+seventh is a setup that only really shines in outnumbered combat. Medium armor builds can easily *** on heavy armor setups right now, especially with bleeds and stuff. In group PvP, if you ignore the fury+seventh user, he will get absolutely no weapon damage, just for this very reason I recently dropped seventh legion for veiled heritance, so that I can get some weapon damage when I'm ignored by smart players.

As for battling medium armor players, dodge roll works very well against melee stamina players, everything in their set is dodgeable. That is not an excuse to why medium is bad.

Its the magicka builds that can trash out medium users without even trying, because their burst is unavoidable and extremely hard hitting.

Stop trying to change the point and make it look like heavy armor's fault. Its far from the truth. I'm trying to make medium work on my Dk for a very long time now(failing and going back to heavy every time), but you guys with your ''hurr durr its heavy armor's fault'' mentality, caused stamina to suffer more and more.

1. There is enough trash aoes in cyrodiil/bgs to keep fury up. The problem more so is being able to sustain but that only pertains to bgs.
2. Medium armor builds "sh*t" on heavy armor so by that logic what is wrong with light armor doing the same to medium?
3. Why do you even bother to bring up stam dk? Everyone knows that they are easily the worst stam spec right now and the boils down to class balance and nothing to do with armor.

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

I think the biggest issue is that sets like ravager/ truth/veiled/fury exist which give heavy wearers the option to have insane burst potential as well as healing. Add this to the tanky nature of heavy armor and you've got the current situation. I wouldn't expect to see things change when the best damage sets are locked under heavy armor.

Nope, that is not an issue. You can wear those sets in medium now.

I think you mean you can change the jewellery to robust? If you wear the armor, it's still heavy weight. I'm just saying that much damage with tanky passives causes a lot of the issues. You shouldn't be able to eat that much damage and drop a dawnbreaker that kills several people. If zenimax clearly established what the armor weights are meant to do a lot of the issues would go away. Light and medium should be for dps and heavy for tanking. If you mix say heavy and medium you should be tanky and do damage but not as tanky or damage dealing if you were wearing just purely one weight. The fact that stam wardens can run fury along with 7th legion and have 5+k weapon damage 30+k stamina with heavy armor resists and healing is utterly broken.

As I said countless and countless times, fury+seventh legion requires you to tank extreme amounts of hits to fully proc.(we're talking about 25 crits for fully procced fury to reach that ''5k weapon damage) , If those sets are so overperforming, why is cyrodiil full of magicka raids, full of magsorcs and stamblades? Your imaginary world differs from the actual reality of cyrodiil.

And that reality is that Fury+seventh is a setup that only really shines in outnumbered combat. Medium armor builds can easily *** on heavy armor setups right now, especially with bleeds and stuff. In group PvP, if you ignore the fury+seventh user, he will get absolutely no weapon damage, just for this very reason I recently dropped seventh legion for veiled heritance, so that I can get some weapon damage when I'm ignored by smart players.

As for battling medium armor players, dodge roll works very well against melee stamina players, everything in their set is dodgeable. That is not an excuse to why medium is bad.

Its the magicka builds that can trash out medium users without even trying, because their burst is unavoidable and extremely hard hitting.

Stop trying to change the point and make it look like heavy armor's fault. Its far from the truth. I'm trying to make medium work on my Dk for a very long time now(failing and going back to heavy every time), but you guys with your ''hurr durr its heavy armor's fault'' mentality, caused stamina to suffer more and more.

1. There is enough trash aoes in cyrodiil/bgs to keep fury up. The problem more so is being able to sustain but that only pertains to bgs.
2. Medium armor builds "sh*t" on heavy armor so by that logic what is wrong with light armor doing the same to medium?
3. Why do you even bother to bring up stam dk? Everyone knows that they are easily the worst stam spec right now and the boils down to class balance and nothing to do with armor.

1. as I said lots of trash AoEs requires lots of people. Fury build starts out weak and ramps up as you take damage. If that is such an issue, do not fart out weak aoes that crit? Which is also weird because aoes like caltrops etc do very decent damage.
2. medium stamina builds and heavy stamina builds are relatively balanced compared to each other. Its the magicka specs with their ridicilously high burst from the safety of range, which absolutely destroys medium users. Even heavy builds are getting a hard time surviving a magsorc/magblade burst combo. Which would be fine if they did not have the ability to face tank enemies as well as heavy armor stamina users.
Do tell me, why heavy armor doing damage is a problem but light armor magsorcs/magblades tanking as good as a heavy armor user is not?

3.Of course I'm going to bring out stamina Dk, The class has the best synergy with fury/seventh legion setup. And also every time there is a ''buff medium'' post, there is always that one tard who comes out and says hurr durr heavy armor Dks so op, thats why medium sucks.(not implying that you are that guy, don't get me wrong there. But there is aaaaaalways gonna be that one guy who cries about heavy armor stamDk, I'm just sick of it.)
And then in the next update heavy armor gets a nerf, which changes absolutely nothing.

I'm tired of this whole thing. DK passives got shrekt because of this very mental issue. redguard got nerfed for the same thing. black rose got nerfed for god knows how many times, constution got nerfed. Shuffle got changed to block heavy users. Wrath is entirely removed because of this very same QQ. Block got nerfed so bad that you could not even block without wearing sturdy+block glyphs in morrowind(which caused the meta of permablocking magDks btw), and in the end the whole thing was so ridicilous they had to buff block again for non tanks.

What more do you people want though? Heavy armor is getting nothing but nerfs since morrowind, we now have jewelrycrafting which allows you to wear heavy sets in medium, we now have sets like brass and impreg which allows you to get medium passives with heavy armor levels of tankyness and what changed for medium armor?

A huge nothing.(except the recent soul assault and cliff racer changes which helped medium more than any of the heavy armor changes) You don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand what is wrong after so many trials and errors. The moment I wear 2 weapon damage sets in medium armor and go out in cyrodiil, I will face a magsorc and die a horrible , unavoidable death. What does this have to do with Fury and seventh legion? Why are we insisting on being ignorant?

Just why?

@Millz while I see and agree with your assessment of medium's defensive capabilities, I don't really have the same experience as you with medium's offense. Are you playing CP or no CP?

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Millz while I see and agree with your assessment of medium's defensive capabilities, I don't really have the same experience as you with medium's offense. Are you playing CP or no CP?

I think that the %10 crit passives from the CP should be added into medium and light armor skill trees instead.
One problem I have with medium armor compared to heavy in non-cp is that the crit difference is too minimal to make a difference.

This would obviously be a bit of a nerf to heavy armor, if heavy armor brawlers end up feeling too weak in CP, they might consider adding wrath back to compensate, and everyone would be happy campers.

Now you would ask, how does extra crits for both light and medium, helps out medium more? The answer is simple. Stamina depends on healing more than magicka does. And having %10 more crit chance would make a lot of extra healing potential. It wouldn't be perfect but it would be a start.

As for dealing with the real elephant in the room, every class needs an ability that protects them when they need, something like cloak or shimmering shield. Dks do have wings, and stamsorcs use streak ,but not all of those are equally effective at solving the problem. the latter two are impossible to sustain since DKs need to use fragmented shield and sorcs need to spam deak deal.

Medium is in a poor spot, but heavy is not op or anything like. Medium need a buff or change of some sort. Im not going to suggest what exactly because idk. But medium does need a buff. Not dps wise zos. I still think the biggest problem with medium is all the skills that are in this game that ignore Dodge. My points cheers.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

I think the biggest issue is that sets like ravager/ truth/veiled/fury exist which give heavy wearers the option to have insane burst potential as well as healing. Add this to the tanky nature of heavy armor and you've got the current situation. I wouldn't expect to see things change when the best damage sets are locked under heavy armor.

Nope, that is not an issue. You can wear those sets in medium now.

I think you mean you can change the jewellery to robust? If you wear the armor, it's still heavy weight. I'm just saying that much damage with tanky passives causes a lot of the issues. You shouldn't be able to eat that much damage and drop a dawnbreaker that kills several people. If zenimax clearly established what the armor weights are meant to do a lot of the issues would go away. Light and medium should be for dps and heavy for tanking. If you mix say heavy and medium you should be tanky and do damage but not as tanky or damage dealing if you were wearing just purely one weight. The fact that stam wardens can run fury along with 7th legion and have 5+k weapon damage 30+k stamina with heavy armor resists and healing is utterly broken.

As I said countless and countless times, fury+seventh legion requires you to tank extreme amounts of hits to fully proc.(we're talking about 25 crits for fully procced fury to reach that ''5k weapon damage) , If those sets are so overperforming, why is cyrodiil full of magicka raids, full of magsorcs and stamblades? Your imaginary world differs from the actual reality of cyrodiil.

And that reality is that Fury+seventh is a setup that only really shines in outnumbered combat. Medium armor builds can easily *** on heavy armor setups right now, especially with bleeds and stuff. In group PvP, if you ignore the fury+seventh user, he will get absolutely no weapon damage, just for this very reason I recently dropped seventh legion for veiled heritance, so that I can get some weapon damage when I'm ignored by smart players.

As for battling medium armor players, dodge roll works very well against melee stamina players, everything in their set is dodgeable. That is not an excuse to why medium is bad.

Its the magicka builds that can trash out medium users without even trying, because their burst is unavoidable and extremely hard hitting.

Stop trying to change the point and make it look like heavy armor's fault. Its far from the truth. I'm trying to make medium work on my Dk for a very long time now(failing and going back to heavy every time), but you guys with your ''hurr durr its heavy armor's fault'' mentality, caused stamina to suffer more and more.

1. There is enough trash aoes in cyrodiil/bgs to keep fury up. The problem more so is being able to sustain but that only pertains to bgs.
2. Medium armor builds "sh*t" on heavy armor so by that logic what is wrong with light armor doing the same to medium?
3. Why do you even bother to bring up stam dk? Everyone knows that they are easily the worst stam spec right now and the boils down to class balance and nothing to do with armor.

1. as I said lots of trash AoEs requires lots of people. Fury build starts out weak and ramps up as you take damage. If that is such an issue, do not fart out weak aoes that crit? Which is also weird because aoes like caltrops etc do very decent damage.
2. medium stamina builds and heavy stamina builds are relatively balanced compared to each other. Its the magicka specs with their ridicilously high burst from the safety of range, which absolutely destroys medium users. Even heavy builds are getting a hard time surviving a magsorc/magblade burst combo. Which would be fine if they did not have the ability to face tank enemies as well as heavy armor stamina users.
Do tell me, why heavy armor doing damage is a problem but light armor magsorcs/magblades tanking as good as a heavy armor user is not?

3.Of course I'm going to bring out stamina Dk, The class has the best synergy with fury/seventh legion setup. And also every time there is a ''buff medium'' post, there is always that one tard who comes out and says hurr durr heavy armor Dks so op, thats why medium sucks.(not implying that you are that guy, don't get me wrong there. But there is aaaaaalways gonna be that one guy who cries about heavy armor stamDk, I'm just sick of it.)
And then in the next update heavy armor gets a nerf, which changes absolutely nothing.

I'm tired of this whole thing. DK passives got shrekt because of this very mental issue. redguard got nerfed for the same thing. black rose got nerfed for god knows how many times, constution got nerfed. Shuffle got changed to block heavy users. Wrath is entirely removed because of this very same QQ. Block got nerfed so bad that you could not even block without wearing sturdy+block glyphs in morrowind(which caused the meta of permablocking magDks btw), and in the end the whole thing was so ridicilous they had to buff block again for non tanks.

What more do you people want though? Heavy armor is getting nothing but nerfs since morrowind, we now have jewelrycrafting which allows you to wear heavy sets in medium, we now have sets like brass and impreg which allows you to get medium passives with heavy armor levels of tankyness and what changed for medium armor?

A huge nothing.(except the recent soul assault and cliff racer changes which helped medium more than any of the heavy armor changes) You don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand what is wrong after so many trials and errors. The moment I wear 2 weapon damage sets in medium armor and go out in cyrodiil, I will face a magsorc and die a horrible , unavoidable death. What does this have to do with Fury and seventh legion? Why are we insisting on being ignorant?

Just why?

1. We really don't have an argument here... except for the fact that heavy sets shouldn't be pumping out 500 to 700 weapon damage.
2. The comment about light being able to tank like heavy weighs heavily on skill level and gear level. Your average sorc in epic armor is just as squishy as a epic medium armor anything with an average player behind it.
3. Yes Stamdk and stam warden both can equally make that setup work.
4. Stam dk was in much better shape when you could shuffle with heavy...I feel your pain there... see my signature.
5. I don't know how to comment on the rest of the rabbit trail you went on except you can thank the crying of the proctards that got the nerf hammer after one Tamriel that had to rely on skill for once while the rest of us had already adapted to survive by wearing heavy.
6. I'm not saying nerf heavy... I'm just saying that it's role has been blurred through way to many unsuccessful attempts by zenimax to "balance" pvp that's all.