@Kelces it has never been easier for a new player to enter PvP. The normalization of BiS weapon traits in HotR, the introduction of retraiting in CWC, and the introduction of jewelry crafting in Summerset means that it has never been easier to fully gear oneself for PvP.

But I think we all know that the biggest challenge for a new player isn't one of itemisation—it stems from a lack of skill. Give a newbie BiS gear and they'll still lose to a top-tier PvPer. Give them Sload's and they'll lose just as fast, because the latter has that much more knowledge and experience with the game.

If that newbie wants to compete with the best someday, they need to learn the mechanics of combat. And this is something you don't learn when you're stacking 3 proc sets and receiving kills from light attacks + a poison injection.

I say that from the position of someone who ran Tremor/Viper/Fire on his stamsorc when he was new to PvP in Morrowind, thought he was the sh!t after killing stuff, but really didn't know anything about PvP in retrospect.

Just as someone should work on developing their PvP skills, don't forget that the game has a PvE side too. Players should also be given avenues to improve their build—and this comes in the form of doing increasingly hard veteran content for increasingly attractive rewards. I'm sure many of us can relate to how good it felt when we earned that first vMA weapon (back when they were actually relevant to PvP, at least).

But if you give a new player in Cyrodiil EVERYTHING they need on day one, where do you go from there?

TheYKcid wrote: »

@Kelces it has never been easier for a new player to enter PvP. The normalization of BiS weapon traits in HotR, the introduction of retraiting in CWC, and the introduction of jewelry crafting in Summerset means that it has never been easier to fully gear oneself for PvP.

But I think we all know that the problems new players face isn't one of itemisation—it's due to a lack of skill. Give a newbie BiS gear and they'll still lose to a top-tier PvPer. Give them Sload's and they'll lose just as fast, because the latter has that much more knowledge and experience with the game.

If that newbie wants to compete with the best someday, they need to learn the mechanics of combat. And this is something you don't learn when you're stacking 3 proc sets and receiving kills from light attacks + a poison injection.

I say that from the position of someone who ran Tremor/Viper/Fire on his stamsorc when he was new to PvP in Morrowind, thought he was the sh!t after killing stuff, but really didn't know anything about PvP in retrospect.

Just as someone should work on developing their PvP skills, don't forget that the game has a PvE side too. Players should also be given avenues to improve their build—and this comes in the form of doing increasingly hard veteran content for increasingly attractive rewards. I'm sure many of us can relate to how good it felt when we earned that first vMA weapon (back when they were actually relevant to PvP, at least).

But if you give a new player in Cyrodiil EVERYTHING they need on day one, where do you go from there?

So developing PvP skills is better using maelstrom equipment then? Of couse not, but that's critisized nowhere, or with any other set at the moment.

If you critizise this way of thinking, you have to be thurough and include it all. No matter of their relative advantage. I still used plain, non set equipment as IC came out, I didn't know about them.

I take my hat off to everyone who refuses certain advantages they might have over others, be that coldharbour ballistas or various sets and still be competitive. But most appearing in threads like this just do not want any competition.

SilverWF wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Meanwhile, Sload's is doing literally twice the DPS, with nearly identical uptime, and doing all of this automatically with no change to your rotation. More damage, more utility, less drawbacks. Who's ignoring what here?

I've missed a part where you calculated Sload's proc uptime and his overall DPS based on it's uptime.
Care to point on it?

All I've seen is your summarization, where Sload's DPS was taken as it has 100% proc rate, that is definitely wrong.

Take 10% off the Sload's DPS to account for downtime then, if it so pleases you.

While you're at it, leave the numbers on Master's and Viper untouched if you prefer to go on pretending that they enjoy 100% uptime.

And then realise that doing so doesn't change the conclusion one bit, because Sload's STILL outperforms by a large remaining margin.

Also... don't forget that I'm conveniently ignoring the fact that Sload's does an additional 7th tick upon application, since I wanted to deal with rolling DPS rates. But since you're so intent on being realistic to a T, don't forget to add another 16.7% DPS to the numbers of Sload's!

Gosh, things are reeeally looking grim for Sload's.

Enslaved wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Meanwhile, Sload's is doing literally twice the DPS, with nearly identical uptime, and doing all of this automatically with no change to your rotation. More damage, more utility, less drawbacks. Who's ignoring what here?

I've missed a part where you calculated Sload's proc uptime and his overall DPS based on it's uptime.
Care to point on it?

All I've seen is your summarization, where Sload's DPS was taken as it has 100% proc rate, that is definitely wrong.

use dot - it will keep your sloads almost 100% on

Not.

In my short test in spherics conditions against target dummy with shtton of DOTs Sload's has only ~60% uptime.
https://imgur.com/a/RS5atCu
I've made several tests, my lowest was 52%, my highest was 69%

And all of that with: Elem Blockade, Twistling Path, Degeneration, Crippling grasp (all 4 are DOTs) + constantly attacking with Funnel and Light Attacks.

And with average DPS of 560 (in Cyro it would be even lower, right?) this set is not OP at all.

It only becomes worse in 1vX conditions (because Sload's may stack from different sources). Well, nothing bad if 1vX 'elitists' would be punished

Enslaved wrote: »

poisoned glyph proc sloads
burning proc sloads
poison injection proc sloads
caltrops proc sloads
rearming trap proc sloads
venomous claw proc sloads
etc.

Read above

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Those masters bleed builds are stupid broken as well.

Got hit with a 9K bloodcraze tick recently. Wat.

Paired up with overtuned Incap and Zaan. Lights out.

Doubt

You say a single, solitary tick for 9k. You must have mAde a screenshot of that unbelievable badboy. Or you missed the tiny number in front of it on your recap. I am honestly very curious about how you would build for such a high tool tip. Especially in no cp

That's how urban legends are born...

flacidstone wrote: »

Highest I’ve had my masters dw bleed tick for was 5.4k in a cp campaign. 9k tick in no cp seems a little high. Not that 5.4k isn’t.

I wish I grabbed a screen shot but had a lot going on. Was getting 5 v 2, but we didn’t have the keep flagged. Was dodging incaps and other cheese.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

@Lexxypwns here ya go.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uvxjS3Ao34bYU5NNHqz0Evt0nDz9umilXZqy6Xft0dc/edit?usp=sharing

Only edit that really had to be made was changing the base damage (since OS deals 946 instead of Viper's 800 per tick, after battlespirit). But I also added a column to simulate minor vuln as the only buff/debuff since you asked about concussion.

It performs surprisingly well actually, up to 742 DPS against a Med target with only minor vuln up. Could even be jacked up further with Altmer and Sorc passives (though it would be pretty unusual on a Sorc).

But still worse than Sload's, expectedly. Also unpredictable with more than a single target around.

So Surge is the superior proc then, since the damage is really close and concussion will boost your other outgoing damage.

Hm, you're right. Surge might actually come out ahead in a 1v1 if you can get decent uptime. Even more so if you're running ele drain.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

@Lexxypwns here ya go.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uvxjS3Ao34bYU5NNHqz0Evt0nDz9umilXZqy6Xft0dc/edit?usp=sharing

Only edit that really had to be made was changing the base damage (since OS deals 946 instead of Viper's 800 per tick, after battlespirit). But I also added a column to simulate minor vuln as the only buff/debuff since you asked about concussion.

It performs surprisingly well actually, up to 742 DPS against a Med target with only minor vuln up. Could even be jacked up further with Altmer and Sorc passives (though it would be pretty unusual on a Sorc).

But still worse than Sload's, expectedly. Also unpredictable with more than a single target around.

So Surge is the superior proc then, since the damage is really close and concussion will boost your other outgoing damage.

Hm, you're right. Surge might actually come out ahead in a 1v1 if you can get decent uptime. Even more so if you're running ele drain.

Also, the argument against Surge because it’s less reliable in Scenarios with multiple targets isn’t accurate either then, because you can’t control a sload proc if there’s any aoe in your build.

Basically it’s a question of wether you prefer the 2-4 pc of a specific set more

2-4pc bonuses on both are great and roughly equal, I agree it's a preference thing.

But I'd still say Sload's wins overall due to the more lenient proc conditions and the fact that its a sticky DoT. Surge requires you to stay within range which isn't always going to be possible in high-mobility or LOS-dependent fights.