[Math] Sload's vs. Master's Dual-wield — a perspective on balance

Ragnarock41 · July 2018

You have to take into account that bleeds do scale with CP,stats, and they do crit.

Against a Dk, bleeds are a lot worse than oblivion damage. And the worst part is that you can wear master dw and still have an almost perfect build that sacrifices very little to have all those bleeds.(And I believe personally the best way to go with a bleed build, is to stack a lot of weapon damage and crits, so that both your dots and hots will reach sky high numbers.)

Now I am not here to say that sloads is any better. It is not. Sloads doing like triple the damage of viper on me is simply showing how ridicilous it is.

Shadowmaster · July 2018

Sloads is fine until they nerf perma-shield-stacking sorcs.

Caveat: I have a sorc and am still saying this.

Until we get a counter for un-stunnable, never-out-of-magicka, perma-shielded sorcs, Sloads should get a buff, not a nerf.

josiahva · July 2018

You are comparing a 5-piece bonus vs a 2-piece bonus, comparing apples and oranges here. Choose some other 5 piece bonuses to compare against.

If you want it to be bleed damage...say Pillar of Nirn. I suspect you will find Pillar of Nirn does significantly more(though it can be avoided easily enough, at least I assume so...no idea what Pillar of Nirn proc looks like). THAT would be a better comparison...especially if you assume that its a bleed build using both Pillar of Nirn and Bloodrinker and whatever monster set you want to plug in there.

TheYKcid · July 2018

@josiahva

I've written a post in another thread explaining why comparing the two is actually a very fair thing to do (link).

In a nutshell, your overall itemisation options are the same whether you use Sload's or Master's DW, because both sets can be single-barred to enable 5/5/2. Or—if running Master's as a main bar—then paired with 3pc Agility thus taking 5 slots anyway. Sload's still wins (but do see the linked post for a more in-depth explanation).

FYI, Pillar of Nirn deals 8k bleed damage over 10 seconds, while Master's DW does 7.5k over 9s. Master's DW has the stronger bleed, so a comparison between Sload's & Pillar is going to reflect even MORE favourably on Sload's. And that is to say nothing of the impracticalities of using Pillar—delayed proc, tiny, static radius... it's even harder to land than Tremor which is why you don't see anyone running it in reality.

The most closely analogous set to Sload's would actually be Viper, if one insists on equating the number of set pieces. The reason I picked Master's DW is because it's far more widely used, and thus the average player has a general grasp of how much relative power it adds—this thread's purpose was to give people perspective, after all.

But anyway, if you want to see how Viper would hold up, here are some back-of-the-napkin calculations:

Base damage: 800 DPS DoT (after battlespirit)

Deduct a few % of this DPS based on your target's armor:
(major fracture + 35 pts piercing CP included—note that this favours Viper)
Light: 10.1%
Med: 15.3%
Heavy: 19.6%

And then reduce by another 4.5% to account for %-based buff/debuff/CP interactions.

And you have Viper dealing anywhere from 614 to 686 DPS. Still significantly less than Sload's, and this will drop-off further against higher-armor targets (I used 21.4k resists to represent the heavy target in this calculation, which is lowballing a heavy build).

With worse 2-4pc bonuses. And worse proc conditions. And worse performance against Sorcs. And Nightblades. And restricted to stam melee. And not craftable.

Sload's is simply outcompeting every other option no matter which way you spin it.

Drakkdjinn · July 2018

+1 Great stuff

PlagueSD · July 2018

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

GO SLOAD OR GO CRY !

Yep, I'm also tired of all these nerf sloads threads. Sloads is a CRAFTED set, so it's available for everyone to use. If you choose to NOT use a tool to help you in combat, that's all you.

Complaining about sloads is like complaining that the person with a rifle can shoot farther and more accurately than you can with your shotgun.

PvP is all about using the best tools available to you. Your refusal to use a specific set that can help you is YOUR crutch. Quit complaining and go craft it!!!

Drakkdjinn · July 2018

PlagueSD wrote: »

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

GO SLOAD OR GO CRY !

Yep, I'm also tired of all these nerf sloads threads. Sloads is a CRAFTED set, so it's available for everyone to use. If you choose to NOT use a tool to help you in combat, that's all you.

Complaining about sloads is like complaining that the person with a rifle can shoot farther and more accurately than you can with your shotgun.

PvP is all about using the best tools available to you. Your refusal to use a specific set that can help you is YOUR crutch. Quit complaining and go craft it!!!

ZoS has acknowledged it is overtuned and will be adjusted in a forthcoming patch; try again, paid Sloads lobbyist.

TheYKcid · July 2018

PlagueSD wrote: »

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

GO SLOAD OR GO CRY !

Yep, I'm also tired of all these nerf sloads threads. Sloads is a CRAFTED set, so it's available for everyone to use. If you choose to NOT use a tool to help you in combat, that's all you.

Complaining about sloads is like complaining that the person with a rifle can shoot farther and more accurately than you can with your shotgun.

PvP is all about using the best tools available to you. Your refusal to use a specific set that can help you is YOUR crutch. Quit complaining and go craft it!!!

By this logic there would be no issue if ZoS made a crafted set that instakilled everyone within a 41m radius when it procced.

Since, you know, available to everyone and all that.

TheYKcid · July 2018

So I decided to not be lazy, and made a new DPS calculator for Viper's Sting. Updated the OP to include it (link).

@josiahva

Zeromaz · July 2018

PlagueSD wrote: »

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

GO SLOAD OR GO CRY !

Yep, I'm also tired of all these nerf sloads threads. Sloads is a CRAFTED set, so it's available for everyone to use. If you choose to NOT use a tool to help you in combat, that's all you.

Complaining about sloads is like complaining that the person with a rifle can shoot farther and more accurately than you can with your shotgun.

PvP is all about using the best tools available to you. Your refusal to use a specific set that can help you is YOUR crutch. Quit complaining and go craft it!!!

My issue with the set is that it procs on sload’s ticks... and it takes me out of cloak. If that was changed i think the set would be fine

generalmyrick · July 2018

TheYKcid wrote: »

Sload's is easy to account for. Being Oblivion damage, it always ticks for 853 damage per second, regardless of any mitigation/modifiers from you or your target.

Master's DW, on the other hand, is a little trickier. The set itself adds 1500 raw damage to every DoT tick of the Twin Slashes skill—which only ticks once every two seconds, therefore this is effectively 750 DPS. And then you have Battlespirit, which halves this again to 375 DPS.

Also, while bleeds ignore armor resistances, they are still affected by variables such as %-based buffs/debuffs, critical modifiers, and CP. To account for all of these, I made an excel calculator that anyone can access at the following link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ybBDgB2Gzt0GJBysvycM-iWIgdEe8sEce89kR08uQtI/edit?usp=sharing

Notes on using the calculator:

The file is read-only. For personal use, you'll have to download it or copy it to your own Google drive

Only fill-in the parameters under "Your stats" and "Target's stats", the calculator will do the rest

Percentage values must be converted to decimals

To simulate no-CP, input zero in the blue and red fields

Since I understand that not everyone wants to spend time tinkering with the calculator, here are some generalised datasets to demonstrate how Master's DW will perform in common scenarios.

Key:
The symbols B, M, V and P represent some common minor buffs you may encounter in combat. Several different combinations of these buffs are simulated.
nil: no buffs or debuffs

B: Berserk, minor (self buff)

M: Maim, minor (self debuff)

V: Vulnerability, minor (target debuff)

P: Protection, minor (target buff)

Scenario 1. Two max-CP players with similar CP distribution (attacker is non-NB/Templar with 50% crit rate, target has 7 impen & 40 points into resistant CP)

________________________________________________

Scenario 2. The same players in a no-CP environment

________________________________________________

Scenario 3. HEAVILY in favour of Master's DW (attacker is NB/Templar with 60% crit rate, target has half CP cf. scenario 1, and only 4 pieces of impen)

the math your using could be used to show that at least 50 sets are better than both these.

SilverWF · July 2018

TheYKcid, calculations are fine, yeah, thx for it but...

Chance to proc:
Viper - 100%
The Master's Dagger - 100%
Sload's Semblance - 10% Yes, TEN, not hundred

Are you really expected that set with 10% proc chance would be weakier than sets with 100% chance? For real?
Ok Master is hard to get, no argue, but Viper? One of the easiest sets in the game?

Valkyn has 8% chance and 5 sec CD and even with 4 DOTs at target it didn't proc every 5 sec for a some "strange" reason.
Not even every 10 or 15.
And we all know why, right?

Zeromaz · July 2018

SilverWF wrote: »

TheYKcid, calculations are fine, yeah, thx for it but...

Chance to proc:
Viper - 100%
The Master's Dagger - 100%
Sload's Semblance - 10% Yes, TEN, not hundred

Are you really expected that set with 10% proc chance would be weakier than sets with 100% chance? For real?
Ok Master is hard to get, no argue, but Viper? One of the easiest sets in the game?

Valkyn has 8% chance and 5 sec CD and even with 4 DOTs at target it didn't proc every 5 sec for a some "strange" reason.
Not even every 10 or 15.
And we all know why, right?

Eerrm.... because Hans Gruber doesn’t use Skoria...? Yes?

Gilvoth · July 2018

myself and my guild members and prety much all the people in zone chat in cryodiil were never asked to vote, so this poll does not represent the entire eso community.

maybe i will go make a poll for just a small group of my friends ands see different results then what you and your small group got.

Zeromaz · July 2018

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

myself and my guild members and prety much all the people in zone chat in cryodiil were never asked to vote, so this poll does not represent the entire eso community.

maybe i will go make a poll for just a small group of my friends ands see different results then what you and your small group got.

When 9 out of 10 dentists recommend Crest Whitening Expressions, do you think they ask every dentist on planet mother *** earth?

DanteYoda · July 2018

Sloads stacks so this is all moot..

MisterBigglesworth · July 2018

Whenever I see a sload's thread now I don't even read it.
I just scroll through until I find dwemer_paleologist's reply.

Thogard · July 2018

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Whenever I see a sload's thread now I don't even read it.
I just scroll through until I find dwemer_paleologist's reply.

I see ur a man of refined taste who wants to view his memes straight from the source.

Well played, sir.

Lexxypwns · July 2018

@TheYKcid can you stop using real math to support your statements. Not sensational enough

cazlonb16_ESO · July 2018

Exodium wrote: »

Anyone who thinks master dw is overperforming has no idea what they're talking about..

You need it for most if not all bleed builds, otherwise they're crap. In my book that is the very definition of an overperforming set ( The other side of the equation is that bleeds on their own are still underperforming, of course ).

Exodium · July 2018

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Exodium wrote: »

Anyone who thinks master dw is overperforming has no idea what they're talking about..

You need it for most if not all bleed builds, otherwise they're crap. In my book that is the very definition of an overperforming set ( The other side of the equation is that bleeds on their own are still underperforming, of course ).

Yeah but master dw doesn't bring bleeds from a decent level to an overpowered level. It brings bleeds from a subpar level to a decent one.

And I say decent because although it works well against specific setups (high resistance block builds), it still has its weaknesses against shield users and can be cleansed too. I think master dw is overpowered in conjunction with sloads and defiles, but then again, those two synergies make anything overpowered.

TheYKcid · July 2018

Tried Sload's today and didn't get many kills. Everyone was purging and Wyrding it—even the Stamblades. Set isn't even that good, guess that's why I rarely see it on my recap.

...am I doing it right yet, @Lexxypwns?

Aliyavana · July 2018

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Whenever I see a sload's thread now I don't even read it.
I just scroll through until I find dwemer_paleologist's reply.

Lol

MrDenimChicken · July 2018

you make a good point but sloads is a 5 pc set and masters dw is a 2 piece set, so a 5 piece set should be stronger. Comparison would be better against other 5 piece sets imo

TheYKcid · July 2018

@MrDenimChicken

Master's DW is either run as a single-bar set or in conjunction with 3pc Agility, so your itemisation options are very similar to a Sload's build.

In any case, I did include a calculator for the Viper's Sting set in the OP lol. You might've overlooked it.

SilverWF · July 2018

TheYKcid wrote: »

In any case...

... you are ignoring still a proc chance
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5281597/#Comment_5281597

TheYKcid · July 2018

I'm really not. Keep the Combat Metrics addon running for a while and you'll see that Sload's can achieve 90%+ uptime when applying just moderate pressure.

Even Viper doesn't have 100% uptime. The proc duration is very short at 4 seconds, and requires direct melee damage which isn't always accessible. When you're recasting buffs, CC'ed, stuck in a defensive window, or even on your backbar where the 5pc bonus isn't active, then the proc isn't getting refreshed.

And saying that Master's DW for instance has 100% proc chance is pretty illogical, seeing as it isn't a proc at all. It requires you to be shoehorned into a specific weapon line (dual-wield), meaning you lose the utility of S&B or Bow, which are absolutely huge opportunity costs. It also requires you to interrupt your combos in order to refresh the Twin Slashes debuff every 9 seconds, which consumes a GCD. Which may not sound like much, but having to extend the setup of your combo by even one second is a very precarious business—your opponent could CC, counterpressure, or simply go defensive and destroy your momentum.

Meanwhile, Sload's is doing literally twice the DPS, with nearly identical uptime, and doing all of this automatically with no change to your rotation. More damage, more utility, less drawbacks. Who's ignoring what here?

TheYKcid · July 2018

@Ragnarock41 I did take CP & crits into account when calculating the damage of Master DW—take a closer look at the calculator or the datasets I provided and you'll see I included all these parameters in my equations.

Examine scenario 3 in particular. This was a case where the attacker has a big CP advantage against his target, and very high crit modifiers too. Both these factors ought to give the Master's bleed a huge advantage, yet Sload's still did 47 to 74% MORE damage.

That's how absurdly overtuned it is—even when severely handicapped, it completely overshadows the alternative.

I'd also like to correct the notion that Master's DW scales with stats—it doesn't. The set adds a flat 1500 base damage to each tick of the Twin Slashes bleed, regardless of stats. While the base skill (referring to Twin Slashes here) does scale with stats, that remains constant when comparing Sload's to Master's—someone with Sload's can still use Twin Slashes on you, with the Sload DoT ticking on top of that. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

The only variable to compare here is the DPS difference between the two procs. And Sload's is on a completely different level in that regard (and not to mention all the additional utility benefits it provides!).

Kelces · July 2018

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

PlagueSD wrote: »

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

GO SLOAD OR GO CRY !

Yep, I'm also tired of all these nerf sloads threads. Sloads is a CRAFTED set, so it's available for everyone to use. If you choose to NOT use a tool to help you in combat, that's all you.

Complaining about sloads is like complaining that the person with a rifle can shoot farther and more accurately than you can with your shotgun.

PvP is all about using the best tools available to you. Your refusal to use a specific set that can help you is YOUR crutch. Quit complaining and go craft it!!!

ZoS has acknowledged it is overtuned and will be adjusted in a forthcoming patch; try again, paid Sloads lobbyist.

They said, they will look into it, anything more would pe presumptuous.

Looks like some people want to preserve their title of nobility called "master weapons". This is sad, because you refuse especially new players the benefit of a nice start into any part of this game, but especially PvP, since this is the most debated about relating to this set.

Almost like the old monopolist's saying "Competition is a sin." I get it...

The_Brosteen · July 2018

I have been very much unconvinced that sloads was op. I felt that much like many other things in the past people only complained about it because it became popular and players saw it more on their death recap. This thread, however, shows clearly otherwise. There is very good reason to nerf the damage on sloads.

Well done, they should hire you. Seriously, I think most could agree that they need someone who actually looks at these types of things objectively and logically.