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Cloak and Shield Stacking need punishing mechanics
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gnarlyvandal✭✭✭One word answer: sloads
As you said defile is used to stop infinite sustain/healing builds, but oblivion damage shouldn’t be viable as a counter to shields? HmmEdited by gnarlyvandal on July 3, 2018 9:01AM0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Once again you cannot remove shield stacking without fundamentally changing how mag sorcs work since healing ward becomes useless without stacking. I’d be happy to remove shield stacking if sorcs were given a legit heal. Again most people don’t realize that mag sorcs aren’t shield stacking most of the time, aside from the bad ones prolonging death or using some cheese overload build which is another story. Shields are incredibly expensive and you can’t really afford to continually stack them. Spamming shields is usually a last ditch effort to stay alive and is similar in resource drain to dodge rolling. Also, if you play mag sorc you realize a shield disappears easily in two hits or less and once you don’t have a shield you’re dead, so spamming isn’t something people do for fun, it’s absolutely necessary. @Daus you said you have a mag sorc yes? I know you don’t want to be carried by the class or whatever but I feel like your opinion would change a little if you spent some time playing one again for a while. Not just for a few days but through a variety of situations in open world. Duel some good players, 1vX, our numbered keep defense and so on. You’ll see that event though they are strong and their rotation a little too easy right now their survivability is not really better than that of most other classes, it’s just different. If you get into a situation where you really need to spam shields you’ll see it’s not a good thing or really very helpful.
I used to play mine pretty often, but they are so broken this update I don't even want to login mine. My buddy Red actually asked me today why I'm not logging into my sorc his reason was "they are so OP right now it's easy mode" and that is exactly why I don't want to play mine anymore. Not until they're balanced. Btw have you tried throwing lich on your back bar with a willpower destro on your front while using engine guardian as your 2 piece? It's ridiculous how invincible you are out that thing out. Not only does it eat ultimates for you, but it heals you routinely, gives you all the stam you need, and when it gives magicka you can literally infinitely shield stack.
A strategy that I used is when you see a large group streak away until your magicka is low enough to proc lich then destroy the peeps that chased you.
Yeah I run the Lich, willpower, Necro with shadow rend build. It’s really good. I do wish my stamina toons had closer to that level of synergy with their builds. But people are calling for some pretty severe nerfs right now, and had I not been trying out mag sorc for some time I’d probably be right there with you, but I know now that outside of BGs where mag sorcs are arguably one of the strongest classes, they’re only situationally better. If I had to pick only stamina or mag to play I’d still go with stamina because its more suited to a variety of a situations in general. I’m not saying mag sorcs don’t need some adjustment, they do, even I can agree that rune cage is too easy, but I don’t want ZOS to go overboard with the changes as they often do when the forums are loud enough. Shield stacking is just too controversial, because 1) it’s still required for any sort of heal and 2) other than spamming shields sorcs have no other way of getting out of a tight situation. There’s no snare removal and you can only afford to dodge roll or break free maybe once or twice.
Do me a favor, swap your shadowrend for engine guardian. You won't regret it.
I’ve tried it but I don’t really need the extra help tbh. It’s over kill and the extra damage and maim from shadow is much better in a fight imo. I’m not one of your streak for ever sorcs. I actually end up fighting in melee range most of the time the time lol. It’s hard to dodge frags if I’m up close.0 -
Sparr0w✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ever heard of Sloads? yeh@Sparr0w so I get the notification
Xbox (EU) - l Sparrow x | CP 810+DD: All Mag + StamPC (EU) - Sparrxw | CP 810+
Heal: Templar | Sorc | NB | Warden | Necro
Tank: NB | DK | Warden
Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GHDD: All Mag + Stam
Heal: Templar | Sorc
Tank: DK | NB
Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH + GS2 -
TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭/agree. Kind of. Full on punishing mechanics like roll/streak fatigue are harmful even if necessary.
Make shields defilable but buffable from mending, forces shield users to have to consider buffs into their build like others do (I.e. Block, dodge has to consider building towards other healing for abilities that go through.) rather than having a simple brainless universal defense.
This wouldn't be reasonable at all. Defile is well regarded to be one of the most overtuned PvP mechanics in the current meta—why would you want to extend its influence even further?
Shields are an above-average defensive mechanic, at best. Making them susceptible to defiles would send them straight to the trash heap.
Not to mention, the spec which is almost entirely dependent on shields for defence—Magsorc—has NO viable way to access the mending buffs whatsoever (resto heavies don't count for obvious reasons—chanelling a 3s long and highly telegraphed attack when under pressure = dead sorc). It's a humongous, class-gutting nerf with no compensatory upsides.Edited by TheYKcid on July 3, 2018 2:59PMPC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden5 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭dwemer_paleologist wrote: »if you want everything changed and you dont like the way it is here in eso then please go to a game that does have what you want instead of trying to ruin it for the rest of us.
So... when will you change to another game?I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.11 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Can we just make PvP Unreal Tournament style insta-gib already?
Health, build, stats etc. don't matter, just who's best at hitting their target.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."2 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Once again you cannot remove shield stacking without fundamentally changing how mag sorcs work since healing ward becomes useless without stacking. I’d be happy to remove shield stacking if sorcs were given a legit heal. Again most people don’t realize that mag sorcs aren’t shield stacking most of the time, aside from the bad ones prolonging death or using some cheese overload build which is another story. Shields are incredibly expensive and you can’t really afford to continually stack them. Spamming shields is usually a last ditch effort to stay alive and is similar in resource drain to dodge rolling. Also, if you play mag sorc you realize a shield disappears easily in two hits or less and once you don’t have a shield you’re dead, so spamming isn’t something people do for fun, it’s absolutely necessary. @Daus you said you have a mag sorc yes? I know you don’t want to be carried by the class or whatever but I feel like your opinion would change a little if you spent some time playing one again for a while. Not just for a few days but through a variety of situations in open world. Duel some good players, 1vX, our numbered keep defense and so on. You’ll see that event though they are strong and their rotation a little too easy right now their survivability is not really better than that of most other classes, it’s just different. If you get into a situation where you really need to spam shields you’ll see it’s not a good thing or really very helpful.
I used to play mine pretty often, but they are so broken this update I don't even want to login mine. My buddy Red actually asked me today why I'm not logging into my sorc his reason was "they are so OP right now it's easy mode" and that is exactly why I don't want to play mine anymore. Not until they're balanced. Btw have you tried throwing lich on your back bar with a willpower destro on your front while using engine guardian as your 2 piece? It's ridiculous how invincible you are out that thing out. Not only does it eat ultimates for you, but it heals you routinely, gives you all the stam you need, and when it gives magicka you can literally infinitely shield stack.
A strategy that I used is when you see a large group streak away until your magicka is low enough to proc lich then destroy the peeps that chased you.
Yeah I run the Lich, willpower, Necro with shadow rend build. It’s really good. I do wish my stamina toons had closer to that level of synergy with their builds. But people are calling for some pretty severe nerfs right now, and had I not been trying out mag sorc for some time I’d probably be right there with you, but I know now that outside of BGs where mag sorcs are arguably one of the strongest classes, they’re only situationally better. If I had to pick only stamina or mag to play I’d still go with stamina because its more suited to a variety of a situations in general. I’m not saying mag sorcs don’t need some adjustment, they do, even I can agree that rune cage is too easy, but I don’t want ZOS to go overboard with the changes as they often do when the forums are loud enough. Shield stacking is just too controversial, because 1) it’s still required for any sort of heal and 2) other than spamming shields sorcs have no other way of getting out of a tight situation. There’s no snare removal and you can only afford to dodge roll or break free maybe once or twice.
Do me a favor, swap your shadowrend for engine guardian. You won't regret it.
I’ve tried it but I don’t really need the extra help tbh. It’s over kill and the extra damage and maim from shadow is much better in a fight imo. I’m not one of your streak for ever sorcs. I actually end up fighting in melee range most of the time the time lol. It’s hard to dodge frags if I’m up close.
Shadowrend is what I would use in a 1v1. Open world however engine guardian is just OP. Not only does it give you incredible sustain but it provides constant LOS.0 -
Stibbons✭✭✭✭✭Shield stacking should just be removed or add +30% at the cost of all max magicka scaled shields.0 -
sharquez✭✭✭✭✭
✭ITT people who don't understand the trade off of getting viable shields to stack in the first place. You noisy few who refuse to understand the classes, their strengths, and weaknesses, and instead want the world to conform to your standards where you win all the time and one shot everyone. You gullible squirrel chasers who will jump at the chance to chase a sorc across the map spending all your stamina sprinting after him only to get comboed to death when you finally catch him because your are out of resources. Find your zen state and improve, instead of irrationally protesting petulantly at precariously balanced glass cannons with 2+ sets and 2 entire classes that generally counter their entire effective playstyle. I say to thee, Git gud.7 -
Dojohoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cloak is easily countered and has to be cast every 3-4 seconds.
Shields have to be cast every 6 seconds.
This sounds resource draining enough.
Fan of playing magblade since 2015. (PC NA)
Might be joking in comments.
-->(((Cyrodiil)))<--1 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭/agree. Kind of. Full on punishing mechanics like roll/streak fatigue are harmful even if necessary.
Make shields defilable but buffable from mending, forces shield users to have to consider buffs into their build like others do (I.e. Block, dodge has to consider building towards other healing for abilities that go through.) rather than having a simple brainless universal defense.
This wouldn't be reasonable at all. Defile is well regarded to be one of the most overtuned PvP mechanics in the current meta—why would you want to extend its influence even further?
Shields are an above-average defensive mechanic, at best. Making them susceptible to defiles would send them straight to the trash heap.
Not to mention, the spec which is almost entirely dependent on shields for defence—Magsorc—has NO viable way to access the mending buffs whatsoever (resto heavies don't count for obvious reasons—chanelling a 3s long and highly telegraphed attack when under pressure = dead sorc). It's a humongous, class-gutting nerf with no compensatory upsides.
Of course current defile is absolutely overtuned. No doubt. I want to extend its influence, but decrease its effectiveness. Why do you want to be immune to debuffing measures on shields? I mean, it works on healing, and the other defenses of block and dodge have been weakened considerably whilst shields remain as is. Seems like the "nerfs for thee, not for me" deal that surrounds sorc.
The only nerf they have had directly is the 20 to 6s change, which wasn't a nerf in direct combat anyway, more when running or pre shielding, and was a nerf no one wanted
Having shields as the only defense is a testament to the lacking design of the class, which IMO should be based around mobility, that, can be buffed no problem.
As you said, shields are an above average defense, it doesn't need a compensatory upside, though healing amps like resto expert, or set bonuses would work too It needs balancing, and making them susceptible to debuffs so they have to be intelligently managed is one method.Edited by ak_pvp on July 4, 2018 5:12AMMagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.1 -
schorse✭✭✭I didn't read the whole thread, but a mechanic against excessive spamming of 1 ability already exists in this game. It's used on the skill Honor of the Dead from the Templar.
"Healing anyone below 75% Health restores 60% of the ability's cost over 6 seconds."
This "magicka refund buff" will NOT stack, so if you spam it you will loose a lot of magicka.
If you drop the 75% condition and apply that refund on shields(or something else) you can make spamming real expensive without changing the normal use of them.
What do you think about this?0 -
f047ys3v3n✭✭✭✭✭
✭2 comments:
1) With regards to cloak. I usually play ranged with the ranged desto Aoe. This is good for revealing cloakers. It is amazing that, as a high regen mag toon I very often find stam gankers capable of casting more cloaks than I can cast fire rings. This is obviously CE at work as stam toons cannot legitimately cloak many times with their little pool and almost nonexistent regen. I wonder how many cloak OP issues would be solved it ZOS addressed CE use. Certainly, no ranged toon with an AOE would have much issue revealing cloakers.
2) If shields were in any way OP Stam would not utterly dominate PVP instead of vice versa. Since stam does utterly dominate PVP there seems little reason to take issue with the one pretty functional piece of magica kit. Perhaps if, at some point, the CC, root, defile, negate, burst, imbalances mag toons deal with are addressed and they become semi-functional it may be necessary to look at the the very good piece of kit that shields are. If you want to complain about shields being OP PVE should be where those complaints are as there are many mechanics that appear basically designed to require the combination of shield and block to survive.
I am currently worried for the future of ESO. Population seems like it is in free fall and the cancellation of the North America in-person gathering feels very much like pulling the plug. Kudos on fixing the in-game economy though. Clearly whatever gold shenanigans were happening the last couple years are fixed.0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭f047ys3v3n wrote: »2 comments:
If shields were in any way OP Stam would not utterly dominate PVP instead of vice versa.
Just a note, they don't. The FOTM classes as usual are Magsorc and stamNB, erring towards magsorc due to sloads.
Numbers wise. Its a Magicka meta, and I main mag. Strength wise, its about even overall, but depending on what style it is it differs.
MagDK>StamDK
Magsorc>Stamsorc
Magplar>Stamplar
StamNB>MagNB
Stamden>Magden
I don't think shields are too OP, they melt under heavy pressure rather quickly, though they are far too forgiving of a defense and awful design. 1v1, or Xv1 shields are incredibly potent as you have to either 1) Wait them out, which never works because they get refreshed commonly or 2) Bash your face against them, and unless you are very high damage built, its more often more costly for you, god help if you are mag vs a harness user...MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.2 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭2) Bash your face against them, and unless you are very high damage built, its more often more costly for you, god help if you are mag vs a harness user...
And how is this any worse than a mag sorc having to grind his/her teeth against a quasi-perma blocking guy, a perma-dodge rolling guy, a spam-healing guy or a stunlocking guy?
Sure, now there's Rune Cage, but that's a "last day" thing. Where were you the other 4 years, when sorcs didn't have that?Edited by Vahrokh on July 4, 2018 8:04AMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO2 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭2) Bash your face against them, and unless you are very high damage built, its more often more costly for you, god help if you are mag vs a harness user...
And how is this any worse than a mag sorc having to grind his/her teeth against a quasi-perma blocking guy, a perma-dodge rolling guy, a spam-healing guy or a stunlocking guy?
Because you can do something about it. For block, a petbuild to tax stam, or all the unblockable STs like rune, or the unblockable AoEs, or any dots ever. Spamheal has defile, whatever damage you are taking is to your health, stunlock has built in immunities, unless you mean the bugs, then yeah no ***, and root has streak, extended ritual, roll, or one of the immunity abilities.
All those defenses have trade offs, and are vastly more sacrificial to use. For example dodge with its fatigue and short stam block. Block with its stam stop, snare, high cost and hits to health. ALL WHILST HAVING SOFT COUNTER ABILITIES. You wouldn't like half of the nerfs that block or dodge have taken applied to shields.
If shields weren't vastly better, MagDK, a block class with block based passives and resistance, wouldn't run shields as meta, but they do.
EDIT: No point tbh, this is now a sorc circlejerkle thread as usual. Can't blame them, so many of the threads about.Edited by ak_pvp on July 4, 2018 8:35AMMagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭f047ys3v3n wrote: »1) With regards to cloak. I usually play ranged with the ranged desto Aoe. This is good for revealing cloakers. It is amazing that, as a high regen mag toon I very often find stam gankers capable of casting more cloaks than I can cast fire rings. This is obviously CE at work as stam toons cannot legitimately cloak many times with their little pool and almost nonexistent regen. I wonder how many cloak OP issues would be solved it ZOS addressed CE use. Certainly, no ranged toon with an AOE would have much issue revealing cloakers.
It's probably not CE. I think you are underestimating how far and fast a nightblade can move. I did, until I levelled one. It's pretty funny actually watching people spam aoe's where they think I ought to be, which is of course the last place I wanted to be if hiding. Once you have successfully stealthed you don't have to keep casting cloak.
You can do nearly the same with a vamp and an speed/invis pot.0 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭2) Bash your face against them, and unless you are very high damage built, its more often more costly for you, god help if you are mag vs a harness user...
And how is this any worse than a mag sorc having to grind his/her teeth against a quasi-perma blocking guy, a perma-dodge rolling guy, a spam-healing guy or a stunlocking guy?
Because you can do something about it. For block, a petbuild to tax stam, or all the unblockable STs like rune, or the unblockable AoEs, or any dots ever. Spamheal has defile, whatever damage you are taking is to your health, stunlock has built in immunities, unless you mean the bugs, then yeah no ***, and root has streak, extended ritual, roll, or one of the immunity abilities.
All those defenses have trade offs, and are vastly more sacrificial to use. For example dodge with its fatigue and short stam block. Block with its stam stop, snare, high cost and hits to health. ALL WHILST HAVING SOFT COUNTER ABILITIES. You wouldn't like half of the nerfs that block or dodge have taken applied to shields.
If shields weren't vastly better, MagDK, a block class with block based passives and resistance, wouldn't run shields as meta, but they do.
EDIT: No point tbh, this is now a sorc circlejerkle thread as usual. Can't blame them, so many of the threads about.
Shields cost a ton to cast and the sorc one has to be refreshed every 6 seconds, putting a potential, ever looming "obligatory pause" in the middle of burst combos. Shields have hard counters and are eaten like butter, plus PvP sorcs don't come with 60k magicka to make massive shields.
Last but not least, sorc circle jerks are the replay to constantly new NB "nerf <anything else>" constant circle jerks.
Which is funny, because the other classes don't complain. Whereas NBs, well established at the top of the food chain, manage to cry nerf on anybody else.Edited by Vahrokh on July 4, 2018 2:15PMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO4 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭2) Bash your face against them, and unless you are very high damage built, its more often more costly for you, god help if you are mag vs a harness user...
And how is this any worse than a mag sorc having to grind his/her teeth against a quasi-perma blocking guy, a perma-dodge rolling guy, a spam-healing guy or a stunlocking guy?
Because you can do something about it. For block, a petbuild to tax stam, or all the unblockable STs like rune, or the unblockable AoEs, or any dots ever. Spamheal has defile, whatever damage you are taking is to your health, stunlock has built in immunities, unless you mean the bugs, then yeah no ***, and root has streak, extended ritual, roll, or one of the immunity abilities.
All those defenses have trade offs, and are vastly more sacrificial to use. For example dodge with its fatigue and short stam block. Block with its stam stop, snare, high cost and hits to health. ALL WHILST HAVING SOFT COUNTER ABILITIES. You wouldn't like half of the nerfs that block or dodge have taken applied to shields.
If shields weren't vastly better, MagDK, a block class with block based passives and resistance, wouldn't run shields as meta, but they do.
EDIT: No point tbh, this is now a sorc circlejerkle thread as usual. Can't blame them, so many of the threads about.
Shields cost a ton to cast and the sorc one has to be refreshed every 6 seconds, putting a potential, ever looming "obligatory pause" in the middle of burst combos. Shields have hard counters and are eaten like butter, plus PvP sorcs don't come with 60k magicka to make massive shields.
Last but not least, sorc circle jerks are the replay to constantly new NB "nerf <anything else>" constant circle jerks.
Which is funny, because the other classes don't complain. Whereas NBs, well established at the top of the food chain, manage to cry nerf on anybody else.
It has always been so. I've always said that I think its a combination of sorcs being a fairly hard-ish counter to NB's (and yes sorcs do have their own counter-classes - and sets now), and the mentality from most other games that gankers should be the bane of cloth-casters...
Seems the average NB just can't get past the fact that sorc is their bane, and not the other way around.
Edited by Biro123 on July 4, 2018 2:53PMMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.5 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭2) Bash your face against them, and unless you are very high damage built, its more often more costly for you, god help if you are mag vs a harness user...
And how is this any worse than a mag sorc having to grind his/her teeth against a quasi-perma blocking guy, a perma-dodge rolling guy, a spam-healing guy or a stunlocking guy?
Because you can do something about it. For block, a petbuild to tax stam, or all the unblockable STs like rune, or the unblockable AoEs, or any dots ever. Spamheal has defile, whatever damage you are taking is to your health, stunlock has built in immunities, unless you mean the bugs, then yeah no ***, and root has streak, extended ritual, roll, or one of the immunity abilities.
All those defenses have trade offs, and are vastly more sacrificial to use. For example dodge with its fatigue and short stam block. Block with its stam stop, snare, high cost and hits to health. ALL WHILST HAVING SOFT COUNTER ABILITIES. You wouldn't like half of the nerfs that block or dodge have taken applied to shields.
If shields weren't vastly better, MagDK, a block class with block based passives and resistance, wouldn't run shields as meta, but they do.
EDIT: No point tbh, this is now a sorc circlejerkle thread as usual. Can't blame them, so many of the threads about.
Shields cost a ton to cast and the sorc one has to be refreshed every 6 seconds, putting a potential, ever looming "obligatory pause" in the middle of burst combos. Shields have hard counters and are eaten like butter, plus PvP sorcs don't come with 60k magicka to make massive shields.
Last but not least, sorc circle jerks are the replay to constantly new NB "nerf <anything else>" constant circle jerks.
Which is funny, because the other classes don't complain. Whereas NBs, well established at the top of the food chain, manage to cry nerf on anybody else.
It has always been so. I've always said that I think its a combination of sorcs being a fairly hard-ish counter to NB's (and yes sorcs do have their own counter-classes - and sets now), and the mentality from most other games that gankers should be the bane of cloth-casters...
Seems the average NB just can't get past the fact that sorc is their bane, and not the other way around.
Yeah!
My attitude when I get 2 shot gank-stunned by a NB: "oh crap, I have to ride 5 minutes again. If I don't get an endless loading screen, that is".
Forumblade attitude when a guy outmanouvred and outplayed him (on any class): "TO THE FORUMS, IGNITE THE WAAMBULANCEEEEEE!!!"Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO7 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Add cast times to cloak but then it also needs to purge again. Now you can interrupt them but if they cloak, it worked. Now it becomes a skill to use shadow image for LOS to disappear and less popping in and out.
Shields I think should not stack but then they should get the resistance of the user so they can build for defense or offense. Then you’d need to take healing ward and turn it into a widely available burst heal since you would not get much healing from it without casting at least one other shield over it or cloaking to limit it being damaged down to nothing0 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭2) Bash your face against them, and unless you are very high damage built, its more often more costly for you, god help if you are mag vs a harness user...
And how is this any worse than a mag sorc having to grind his/her teeth against a quasi-perma blocking guy, a perma-dodge rolling guy, a spam-healing guy or a stunlocking guy?
Because you can do something about it. For block, a petbuild to tax stam, or all the unblockable STs like rune, or the unblockable AoEs, or any dots ever. Spamheal has defile, whatever damage you are taking is to your health, stunlock has built in immunities, unless you mean the bugs, then yeah no ***, and root has streak, extended ritual, roll, or one of the immunity abilities.
All those defenses have trade offs, and are vastly more sacrificial to use. For example dodge with its fatigue and short stam block. Block with its stam stop, snare, high cost and hits to health. ALL WHILST HAVING SOFT COUNTER ABILITIES. You wouldn't like half of the nerfs that block or dodge have taken applied to shields.
If shields weren't vastly better, MagDK, a block class with block based passives and resistance, wouldn't run shields as meta, but they do.
EDIT: No point tbh, this is now a sorc circlejerkle thread as usual. Can't blame them, so many of the threads about.
Shields cost a ton to cast and the sorc one has to be refreshed every 6 seconds, putting a potential, ever looming "obligatory pause" in the middle of burst combos. Shields have hard counters and are eaten like butter, plus PvP sorcs don't come with 60k magicka to make massive shields.
Last but not least, sorc circle jerks are the replay to constantly new NB "nerf <anything else>" constant circle jerks.
Which is funny, because the other classes don't complain. Whereas NBs, well established at the top of the food chain, manage to cry nerf on anybody else.
It has always been so. I've always said that I think its a combination of sorcs being a fairly hard-ish counter to NB's (and yes sorcs do have their own counter-classes - and sets now), and the mentality from most other games that gankers should be the bane of cloth-casters...
Seems the average NB just can't get past the fact that sorc is their bane, and not the other way around.
Yeah!
My attitude when I get 2 shot gank-stunned by a NB: "oh crap, I have to ride 5 minutes again. If I don't get an endless loading screen, that is".
Forumblade attitude when a guy outmanouvred and outplayed him (on any class): "TO THE FORUMS, IGNITE THE WAAMBULANCEEEEEE!!!"
If something is over-performing I point it out. It's harder to do that with your own class, and thankfully there are people make arguments against my class that I think are valid. For instance even though I don't struggle with cloak or Incap I can see how OP it can be when you're not a Nightblade, Templar or Stamsorc so I think it would be appropriate to reevaluate cloak. As far as Incap goes the only change I support is the removal or adjustment of its CC.
My posts are typically met with over-emotional cries from sorcs (back in the day it was Templars) rather than anything with substance, but truthfully I expected nothing less.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think OP misunderstands game design. Granted this is his weekly thread on the subject.
Besides the fact that to punish shield stacking we we punish stam builds as well which OP clearly disregards, it seem many players understand how to deal with shield stacking and such. Confused why OP is so challenged.
3 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I think OP misunderstands game design. Granted this is his weekly thread on the subject.
Besides the fact that to punish shield stacking we we punish stam builds as well which OP clearly disregards, it seem many players understand how to deal with shield stacking and such. Confused why OP is so challenged.
Care to elaborate what you meant by that last part?0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think OP misunderstands game design. Granted this is his weekly thread on the subject.
Besides the fact that to punish shield stacking we we punish stam builds as well which OP clearly disregards, it seem many players understand how to deal with shield stacking and such. Confused why OP is so challenged.
Care to elaborate what you meant by that last part?
Very simple. There are players who can handle shield stacking players. Even just based on this thread it does seem you are challenged with shields where others are not.
I see these threads as I saw similar threads in another game. DPS complaining that healers were to hard to kill yet mostly dps attacking my healer failed miserably because they failed to execute some very basic tactics such as interrupt the big heals and to time stuns appropriately. Instead they just DPSed me and I laughed.4 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭2) Bash your face against them, and unless you are very high damage built, its more often more costly for you, god help if you are mag vs a harness user...
And how is this any worse than a mag sorc having to grind his/her teeth against a quasi-perma blocking guy, a perma-dodge rolling guy, a spam-healing guy or a stunlocking guy?
Because you can do something about it. For block, a petbuild to tax stam, or all the unblockable STs like rune, or the unblockable AoEs, or any dots ever. Spamheal has defile, whatever damage you are taking is to your health, stunlock has built in immunities, unless you mean the bugs, then yeah no ***, and root has streak, extended ritual, roll, or one of the immunity abilities.
All those defenses have trade offs, and are vastly more sacrificial to use. For example dodge with its fatigue and short stam block. Block with its stam stop, snare, high cost and hits to health. ALL WHILST HAVING SOFT COUNTER ABILITIES. You wouldn't like half of the nerfs that block or dodge have taken applied to shields.
If shields weren't vastly better, MagDK, a block class with block based passives and resistance, wouldn't run shields as meta, but they do.
EDIT: No point tbh, this is now a sorc circlejerkle thread as usual. Can't blame them, so many of the threads about.
Shields cost a ton to cast and the sorc one has to be refreshed every 6 seconds, putting a potential, ever looming "obligatory pause" in the middle of burst combos. Shields have hard counters and are eaten like butter, plus PvP sorcs don't come with 60k magicka to make massive shields.
Last but not least, sorc circle jerks are the replay to constantly new NB "nerf <anything else>" constant circle jerks.
Which is funny, because the other classes don't complain. Whereas NBs, well established at the top of the food chain, manage to cry nerf on anybody else.
It has always been so. I've always said that I think its a combination of sorcs being a fairly hard-ish counter to NB's (and yes sorcs do have their own counter-classes - and sets now), and the mentality from most other games that gankers should be the bane of cloth-casters...
Seems the average NB just can't get past the fact that sorc is their bane, and not the other way around.
Yeah!
My attitude when I get 2 shot gank-stunned by a NB: "oh crap, I have to ride 5 minutes again. If I don't get an endless loading screen, that is".
Forumblade attitude when a guy outmanouvred and outplayed him (on any class): "TO THE FORUMS, IGNITE THE WAAMBULANCEEEEEE!!!"
If something is over-performing I point it out. It's harder to do that with your own class, and thankfully there are people make arguments against my class that I think are valid. For instance even though I don't struggle with cloak or Incap I can see how OP it can be when you're not a Nightblade, Templar or Stamsorc so I think it would be appropriate to reevaluate cloak. As far as Incap goes the only change I support is the removal or adjustment of its CC.
My posts are typically met with over-emotional cries from sorcs (back in the day it was Templars) rather than anything with substance, but truthfully I expected nothing less.
Your "pointing out", is repeated so often and on the same points that really loses credibility.
Plus, you don't seem to take into account how many classes would be affected by those nerfs and how PvE shield tanks would immediately become a thing of the past.
I hate 3 shield stacking too. Spending my lifetime spamming the same 3 buttons every 6 seconds is not what qualifies for "top fun", believe me (in fact, this makes me PvP very very rarely). But just cross-class nerfs with ripple effects are not right. Not with the 6 months+ ZOS "reaction" times.Edited by Vahrokh on July 4, 2018 6:27PMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO2 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭2) Bash your face against them, and unless you are very high damage built, its more often more costly for you, god help if you are mag vs a harness user...
And how is this any worse than a mag sorc having to grind his/her teeth against a quasi-perma blocking guy, a perma-dodge rolling guy, a spam-healing guy or a stunlocking guy?
Because you can do something about it. For block, a petbuild to tax stam, or all the unblockable STs like rune, or the unblockable AoEs, or any dots ever. Spamheal has defile, whatever damage you are taking is to your health, stunlock has built in immunities, unless you mean the bugs, then yeah no ***, and root has streak, extended ritual, roll, or one of the immunity abilities.
All those defenses have trade offs, and are vastly more sacrificial to use. For example dodge with its fatigue and short stam block. Block with its stam stop, snare, high cost and hits to health. ALL WHILST HAVING SOFT COUNTER ABILITIES. You wouldn't like half of the nerfs that block or dodge have taken applied to shields.
If shields weren't vastly better, MagDK, a block class with block based passives and resistance, wouldn't run shields as meta, but they do.
EDIT: No point tbh, this is now a sorc circlejerkle thread as usual. Can't blame them, so many of the threads about.
Shields cost a ton to cast and the sorc one has to be refreshed every 6 seconds, putting a potential, ever looming "obligatory pause" in the middle of burst combos. Shields have hard counters and are eaten like butter, plus PvP sorcs don't come with 60k magicka to make massive shields.
Last but not least, sorc circle jerks are the replay to constantly new NB "nerf <anything else>" constant circle jerks.
Which is funny, because the other classes don't complain. Whereas NBs, well established at the top of the food chain, manage to cry nerf on anybody else.
It has always been so. I've always said that I think its a combination of sorcs being a fairly hard-ish counter to NB's (and yes sorcs do have their own counter-classes - and sets now), and the mentality from most other games that gankers should be the bane of cloth-casters...
Seems the average NB just can't get past the fact that sorc is their bane, and not the other way around.
Yeah!
My attitude when I get 2 shot gank-stunned by a NB: "oh crap, I have to ride 5 minutes again. If I don't get an endless loading screen, that is".
Forumblade attitude when a guy outmanouvred and outplayed him (on any class): "TO THE FORUMS, IGNITE THE WAAMBULANCEEEEEE!!!"
If something is over-performing I point it out. It's harder to do that with your own class, and thankfully there are people make arguments against my class that I think are valid. For instance even though I don't struggle with cloak or Incap I can see how OP it can be when you're not a Nightblade, Templar or Stamsorc so I think it would be appropriate to reevaluate cloak. As far as Incap goes the only change I support is the removal or adjustment of its CC.
My posts are typically met with over-emotional cries from sorcs (back in the day it was Templars) rather than anything with substance, but truthfully I expected nothing less.
Your "pointing out", is repeated so often and on the same points that really loses credibility.
Plus, you don't seem to take into account how many classes would be affected by those nerfs and how PvE shield tanks would immediately become a thing of the past.
I hate 3 shield stacking too. Spending my lifetime spamming the same 3 buttons every 6 seconds is not what qualifies for "top fun", believe me (in fact, this makes me PvP very very rarely). But just cross-class nerfs with ripple effects are not right. Not with the 6 months+ ZOS "reaction" times.
Sometimes you must pester the unjust judge day and night before you're heard. How many Sloads threads were made before we got a response? I made a thread I believe within 24 hours complaining about Sloads; stating it's going to be the new meta, and people scoffed.
How many threads were created in the PTS complaining about Sloads after I made my thread? How many threads were created after Summerset went live? Where are those scoffers now?0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭2) Bash your face against them, and unless you are very high damage built, its more often more costly for you, god help if you are mag vs a harness user...
And how is this any worse than a mag sorc having to grind his/her teeth against a quasi-perma blocking guy, a perma-dodge rolling guy, a spam-healing guy or a stunlocking guy?
Because you can do something about it. For block, a petbuild to tax stam, or all the unblockable STs like rune, or the unblockable AoEs, or any dots ever. Spamheal has defile, whatever damage you are taking is to your health, stunlock has built in immunities, unless you mean the bugs, then yeah no ***, and root has streak, extended ritual, roll, or one of the immunity abilities.
All those defenses have trade offs, and are vastly more sacrificial to use. For example dodge with its fatigue and short stam block. Block with its stam stop, snare, high cost and hits to health. ALL WHILST HAVING SOFT COUNTER ABILITIES. You wouldn't like half of the nerfs that block or dodge have taken applied to shields.
If shields weren't vastly better, MagDK, a block class with block based passives and resistance, wouldn't run shields as meta, but they do.
EDIT: No point tbh, this is now a sorc circlejerkle thread as usual. Can't blame them, so many of the threads about.
Shields cost a ton to cast and the sorc one has to be refreshed every 6 seconds, putting a potential, ever looming "obligatory pause" in the middle of burst combos. Shields have hard counters and are eaten like butter, plus PvP sorcs don't come with 60k magicka to make massive shields.
Last but not least, sorc circle jerks are the replay to constantly new NB "nerf <anything else>" constant circle jerks.
Which is funny, because the other classes don't complain. Whereas NBs, well established at the top of the food chain, manage to cry nerf on anybody else.
It has always been so. I've always said that I think its a combination of sorcs being a fairly hard-ish counter to NB's (and yes sorcs do have their own counter-classes - and sets now), and the mentality from most other games that gankers should be the bane of cloth-casters...
Seems the average NB just can't get past the fact that sorc is their bane, and not the other way around.
Yeah!
My attitude when I get 2 shot gank-stunned by a NB: "oh crap, I have to ride 5 minutes again. If I don't get an endless loading screen, that is".
Forumblade attitude when a guy outmanouvred and outplayed him (on any class): "TO THE FORUMS, IGNITE THE WAAMBULANCEEEEEE!!!"
If something is over-performing I point it out. It's harder to do that with your own class, and thankfully there are people make arguments against my class that I think are valid. For instance even though I don't struggle with cloak or Incap I can see how OP it can be when you're not a Nightblade, Templar or Stamsorc so I think it would be appropriate to reevaluate cloak. As far as Incap goes the only change I support is the removal or adjustment of its CC.
My posts are typically met with over-emotional cries from sorcs (back in the day it was Templars) rather than anything with substance, but truthfully I expected nothing less.
Your "pointing out", is repeated so often and on the same points that really loses credibility.
Plus, you don't seem to take into account how many classes would be affected by those nerfs and how PvE shield tanks would immediately become a thing of the past.
I hate 3 shield stacking too. Spending my lifetime spamming the same 3 buttons every 6 seconds is not what qualifies for "top fun", believe me (in fact, this makes me PvP very very rarely). But just cross-class nerfs with ripple effects are not right. Not with the 6 months+ ZOS "reaction" times.
Sometimes you must pester the unjust judge day and night before you're heard. How many Sloads threads were made before we got a response? I made a thread I believe within 24 hours complaining about Sloads; stating it's going to be the new meta, and people scoffed.
How many threads were created in the PTS complaining about Sloads after I made my thread? How many threads were created after Summerset went live? Where are those scoffers now?
And sometimes he/she who pesters that judge is the one that is unjust.
However, you are smart in understanding Zos does listen to the loudest voices even when those voices are strait up wrong. However, in the end it comes down to bite them because in this case the opposite and equal reaction will be to slam stam into the ground as well just like last time. LMAO.3 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭2) Bash your face against them, and unless you are very high damage built, its more often more costly for you, god help if you are mag vs a harness user...
And how is this any worse than a mag sorc having to grind his/her teeth against a quasi-perma blocking guy, a perma-dodge rolling guy, a spam-healing guy or a stunlocking guy?
Because you can do something about it. For block, a petbuild to tax stam, or all the unblockable STs like rune, or the unblockable AoEs, or any dots ever. Spamheal has defile, whatever damage you are taking is to your health, stunlock has built in immunities, unless you mean the bugs, then yeah no ***, and root has streak, extended ritual, roll, or one of the immunity abilities.
All those defenses have trade offs, and are vastly more sacrificial to use. For example dodge with its fatigue and short stam block. Block with its stam stop, snare, high cost and hits to health. ALL WHILST HAVING SOFT COUNTER ABILITIES. You wouldn't like half of the nerfs that block or dodge have taken applied to shields.
If shields weren't vastly better, MagDK, a block class with block based passives and resistance, wouldn't run shields as meta, but they do.
EDIT: No point tbh, this is now a sorc circlejerkle thread as usual. Can't blame them, so many of the threads about.
Shields cost a ton to cast and the sorc one has to be refreshed every 6 seconds, putting a potential, ever looming "obligatory pause" in the middle of burst combos. Shields have hard counters and are eaten like butter, plus PvP sorcs don't come with 60k magicka to make massive shields.
Last but not least, sorc circle jerks are the replay to constantly new NB "nerf <anything else>" constant circle jerks.
Which is funny, because the other classes don't complain. Whereas NBs, well established at the top of the food chain, manage to cry nerf on anybody else.
It has always been so. I've always said that I think its a combination of sorcs being a fairly hard-ish counter to NB's (and yes sorcs do have their own counter-classes - and sets now), and the mentality from most other games that gankers should be the bane of cloth-casters...
Seems the average NB just can't get past the fact that sorc is their bane, and not the other way around.
Yeah!
My attitude when I get 2 shot gank-stunned by a NB: "oh crap, I have to ride 5 minutes again. If I don't get an endless loading screen, that is".
Forumblade attitude when a guy outmanouvred and outplayed him (on any class): "TO THE FORUMS, IGNITE THE WAAMBULANCEEEEEE!!!"
If something is over-performing I point it out. It's harder to do that with your own class, and thankfully there are people make arguments against my class that I think are valid. For instance even though I don't struggle with cloak or Incap I can see how OP it can be when you're not a Nightblade, Templar or Stamsorc so I think it would be appropriate to reevaluate cloak. As far as Incap goes the only change I support is the removal or adjustment of its CC.
My posts are typically met with over-emotional cries from sorcs (back in the day it was Templars) rather than anything with substance, but truthfully I expected nothing less.
Your "pointing out", is repeated so often and on the same points that really loses credibility.
Plus, you don't seem to take into account how many classes would be affected by those nerfs and how PvE shield tanks would immediately become a thing of the past.
I hate 3 shield stacking too. Spending my lifetime spamming the same 3 buttons every 6 seconds is not what qualifies for "top fun", believe me (in fact, this makes me PvP very very rarely). But just cross-class nerfs with ripple effects are not right. Not with the 6 months+ ZOS "reaction" times.
Sometimes you must pester the unjust judge day and night before you're heard. How many Sloads threads were made before we got a response? I made a thread I believe within 24 hours complaining about Sloads; stating it's going to be the new meta, and people scoffed.
How many threads were created in the PTS complaining about Sloads after I made my thread? How many threads were created after Summerset went live? Where are those scoffers now?
And sometimes he/she who pesters that judge is the one that is unjust.
However, you are smart in understanding Zos does listen to the loudest voices even when those voices are strait up wrong. However, in the end it comes down to bite them because in this case the opposite and equal reaction will be to slam stam into the ground as well just like last time. LMAO.
Usually Stam nerfs are justified though for the most part. Dodge rolling needed a cool down, Incap and DBoS needed a cost increase, Stam proc sets needed to be nerfed something fierce. But "woe is me" if anyone dares try to tone down the strength of the magicka community.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭2) Bash your face against them, and unless you are very high damage built, its more often more costly for you, god help if you are mag vs a harness user...
And how is this any worse than a mag sorc having to grind his/her teeth against a quasi-perma blocking guy, a perma-dodge rolling guy, a spam-healing guy or a stunlocking guy?
Because you can do something about it. For block, a petbuild to tax stam, or all the unblockable STs like rune, or the unblockable AoEs, or any dots ever. Spamheal has defile, whatever damage you are taking is to your health, stunlock has built in immunities, unless you mean the bugs, then yeah no ***, and root has streak, extended ritual, roll, or one of the immunity abilities.
All those defenses have trade offs, and are vastly more sacrificial to use. For example dodge with its fatigue and short stam block. Block with its stam stop, snare, high cost and hits to health. ALL WHILST HAVING SOFT COUNTER ABILITIES. You wouldn't like half of the nerfs that block or dodge have taken applied to shields.
If shields weren't vastly better, MagDK, a block class with block based passives and resistance, wouldn't run shields as meta, but they do.
EDIT: No point tbh, this is now a sorc circlejerkle thread as usual. Can't blame them, so many of the threads about.
Shields cost a ton to cast and the sorc one has to be refreshed every 6 seconds, putting a potential, ever looming "obligatory pause" in the middle of burst combos. Shields have hard counters and are eaten like butter, plus PvP sorcs don't come with 60k magicka to make massive shields.
Last but not least, sorc circle jerks are the replay to constantly new NB "nerf <anything else>" constant circle jerks.
Which is funny, because the other classes don't complain. Whereas NBs, well established at the top of the food chain, manage to cry nerf on anybody else.
It has always been so. I've always said that I think its a combination of sorcs being a fairly hard-ish counter to NB's (and yes sorcs do have their own counter-classes - and sets now), and the mentality from most other games that gankers should be the bane of cloth-casters...
Seems the average NB just can't get past the fact that sorc is their bane, and not the other way around.
Yeah!
My attitude when I get 2 shot gank-stunned by a NB: "oh crap, I have to ride 5 minutes again. If I don't get an endless loading screen, that is".
Forumblade attitude when a guy outmanouvred and outplayed him (on any class): "TO THE FORUMS, IGNITE THE WAAMBULANCEEEEEE!!!"
If something is over-performing I point it out. It's harder to do that with your own class, and thankfully there are people make arguments against my class that I think are valid. For instance even though I don't struggle with cloak or Incap I can see how OP it can be when you're not a Nightblade, Templar or Stamsorc so I think it would be appropriate to reevaluate cloak. As far as Incap goes the only change I support is the removal or adjustment of its CC.
My posts are typically met with over-emotional cries from sorcs (back in the day it was Templars) rather than anything with substance, but truthfully I expected nothing less.
Your "pointing out", is repeated so often and on the same points that really loses credibility.
Plus, you don't seem to take into account how many classes would be affected by those nerfs and how PvE shield tanks would immediately become a thing of the past.
I hate 3 shield stacking too. Spending my lifetime spamming the same 3 buttons every 6 seconds is not what qualifies for "top fun", believe me (in fact, this makes me PvP very very rarely). But just cross-class nerfs with ripple effects are not right. Not with the 6 months+ ZOS "reaction" times.
Sometimes you must pester the unjust judge day and night before you're heard. How many Sloads threads were made before we got a response? I made a thread I believe within 24 hours complaining about Sloads; stating it's going to be the new meta, and people scoffed.
How many threads were created in the PTS complaining about Sloads after I made my thread? How many threads were created after Summerset went live? Where are those scoffers now?
And sometimes he/she who pesters that judge is the one that is unjust.
However, you are smart in understanding Zos does listen to the loudest voices even when those voices are strait up wrong. However, in the end it comes down to bite them because in this case the opposite and equal reaction will be to slam stam into the ground as well just like last time. LMAO.
Usually Stam nerfs are justified though for the most part. Dodge rolling needed a cool down, Incap and DBoS needed a cost increase, Stam proc sets needed to be nerfed something fierce. But "woe is me" if anyone dares try to tone down the strength of the magicka community.
LOL, and you ignored my previous post that directly replied, and answered, your reply to me. Speaks volumes that my reply was to true to respond to.
As a result I will leave this thread instead of keeping it on life support. Unless you reply with something worthy. If not, have a good day.0