The conversion from newb to competitve

mursie · June 2018

Ladies & Gentlemen,

I come seeking advice. This game is brutally difficult in no-cp pvp when you remove the crutches of sloads, cloak, and sub 50 bg's.

Background:
I main a stamblade that can easily kill in cyrodiil and BG's. double digit kills with less than 3 deaths is not uncommon. I also have a magblade that i play 2h/resto. Again - results are about the same.

But I grow tired of relying on cloak for defense because, even I know, it is super cheesy. I see "pros" that play this game as a melee bruiser on stam classes without cloak and they absolutely do not require this crutch to stay alive.

So i have transitioned. Not gender clowns, but class. I tried my hand at a stam warden. Instantly my results dipped to mediocrity. I understand how the class works and where the kills come from due to timed burst with DB/Sub/Reverse Slice. I truly get it. But none the less - being out in the open without cloak I just get rekted to a 50/50 KD at best.

Recently i moved to the stam-sorc. I'm wearing troll king with automaton body, seventh sword and board jewels and back bar - and master dw. Again - i think the gear is there so the only conclusion as to why im 50/50 at best is because I fundamentally do not understand how to survive in this game without cloak.

When i played the stam sorc, stam warden, and mag dk in sub 50 bg's... i would absolutely destroy people. Im talking 32-0 type scores. Now - i'm lucky to see a 5 kill 5 death score board. usually it's worse.

My game plan has been as follows: use shielded assault as a gap closer and introduce major defile via reverb as soon as possible. from there - introduce a ransack armor debuff with LA/bash weave. bar swap and apply blood craze bleed. If in execute - spin 2 win. I infuse the snb bar to prop dmg up when i swap to apply bleed. I have the dw bar nirn'd with poision and infused with shock. it's a master axe for the twin blade and blunt bleed.

yet - the reality is that in bg's my outcome is usually as follows. My damage feels subpar. i pester and annoy people with debuffs more than i actually threaten their health. and then i insta explode. A classic example last night went as follows:

mag sorc at range teeing off on people. I gap close, apply reverb and ransack. apply bleed. He's not even 1/2 health. I basically rinse and repeat the rotation while trying to keep my buffs up (surge, vigor, etc.). He patiently just face tanks me. This goes on for a good 2 full rotations. then, and i'm literally talking instantly, endless fury / haunting curse and you're dead.

I bring this example up because it illustrates my biggest issue. I feel like i get the jump on people. I usually do 2/3's of the total damage in the fight in the first 5 seconds. yet I never bring them into execute and then I am insta exploded.

I will say that i'm an alt aholic and my alts are never fully completed from a skill line perspective (never fully undaunted for more stats, usually some pieces of gear with sub opitmal traits. armor always purple but I do make sure to gold my weapons).

case in point - my stam sorc doesn't have DB yet. (i know i know... this is a huge part of the damage equation most likely) but damn - are we really saying that a stam class is only a stam class that can kill if it can use DB? I've been just using shield wall for the passive sustain while i try to do more ability damage. I don't know.

Would love to get thoughts from good melee bruisers on what allows them to function in a BG without feeling like they will just insta explode. I usually just run tri-pots for potions on all my toons. I try to use LOS as best as possible... but again - at some point you do actually have to get in the face of your opponent to melee bruise... and the reality is - when I do get in the face of an opponent, my damage is not sufficient enough to seal the deal and they just insta explode me.

Waffennacht · June 2018

The only way I've not been insta-gibbed in medium is by bringing the heat. So typically all offensive sets or like bone pirate.

tourerttrwb17_ESO · June 2018

I wanna know the answer to OP questions as well. I have been PvP ing on mDK a lot and it was going fine. When switched to stam warden - all perfectly leveled except for undaunted, i am unable to kill anyone and constantly die. So i went back to mDK...

Waffennacht · June 2018

tourerttrwb17_ESO wrote: »

I wanna know the answer to OP questions as well. I have been PvP ing on mDK a lot and it was going fine. When switched to stam warden - all perfectly leveled except for undaunted, i am unable to kill anyone and constantly die. So i went back to mDK...

I can't help but think the answer is obvious. You do really well on a class you've spent a great deal playing and poorly on one that you haven't. I think the more you practice the better.

I mean I could say: block when it's important to do so, Dodge when something can Dodge and won't leave you dry, keep vigor, rally up. For stamden crystals is important, Dodge rolling AC Stam heal. LOS while timing burst. Burst.

But it's all stuff I'm sure you've already heard

lazerlaz · June 2018

Umm try a heavy nb without cloak if you think cloak is so "cheese". You'll soon find that heavy nbs are one of the "cheesiest" with great fps and unreal defense. I'm actually really surprised that with all the cheeeeeese going around I don't see more of them.

And yes, there are very few stam sorcs, stamplars, and stam wardens I know that are good without dawnbreaker. Dks have leap which imho is way better than dawnbreaker. Dawnbreaker unfortunately is one of the only reason some stam dps classes even stand a chance in PvP.

rimmidimdim · June 2018

lazerlaz wrote: »

Umm try a heavy nb without cloak if you think cloak is so "cheese". You'll soon find that heavy nbs are one of the "cheesiest" with great fps and unreal defense. I'm actually really surprised that with all the cheeeeeese going around I don't see more of them.

And yes, there are very few stam sorcs, stamplars, and stam wardens I know that are good without dawnbreaker. Dks have leap which imho is way better than dawnbreaker. Dawnbreaker unfortunately is one of the only reason some stam dps classes even stand a chance in PvP.

Is cloak cheese or not? Explain the cheese plz, idk what your saying except you like cheese, or hate it.

To the OP, I use the heal cloak. And I like it. At first I didn't but as you play it more you will learn to use and trust more. I do play the brawler style. In heavy 5-1-1, DW/2H. Heal cloak and vigor is a good combo. Put heal cloak and vigor on same bar with swallow soul slotted and the ult soul siphon slotted and that 14% more healing also. Try too use your heal pots on this bar too. Add troll king with orc or Nord and your survival gets pretty high class. Some advice. Cheers.

Nyladreas · June 2018

rimmidimdim wrote: »

lazerlaz wrote: »

Umm try a heavy nb without cloak if you think cloak is so "cheese". You'll soon find that heavy nbs are one of the "cheesiest" with great fps and unreal defense. I'm actually really surprised that with all the cheeeeeese going around I don't see more of them.

And yes, there are very few stam sorcs, stamplars, and stam wardens I know that are good without dawnbreaker. Dks have leap which imho is way better than dawnbreaker. Dawnbreaker unfortunately is one of the only reason some stam dps classes even stand a chance in PvP.

Is cloak cheese or not? Explain the cheese plz, idk what your saying except you like cheese, or hate it.

To the OP, I use the heal cloak. And I like it. At first I didn't but as you play it more you will learn to use and trust more. I do play the brawler style. In heavy 5-1-1, DW/2H. Heal cloak and vigor is a good combo. Put heal cloak and vigor on same bar with swallow soul slotted and the ult soul siphon slotted and that 14% more healing also. Try too use your heal pots on this bar too. Add troll king with orc or Nord and your survival gets pretty high class. Some advice. Cheers.

This is what I'd love to go for as well. However have no idea what heavy sets to use at all for no-cp. Can you please help or give some tips on good sets?

@rimmidimdim

rimmidimdim · June 2018

Nyladreas wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

lazerlaz wrote: »

Umm try a heavy nb without cloak if you think cloak is so "cheese". You'll soon find that heavy nbs are one of the "cheesiest" with great fps and unreal defense. I'm actually really surprised that with all the cheeeeeese going around I don't see more of them.

And yes, there are very few stam sorcs, stamplars, and stam wardens I know that are good without dawnbreaker. Dks have leap which imho is way better than dawnbreaker. Dawnbreaker unfortunately is one of the only reason some stam dps classes even stand a chance in PvP.

Is cloak cheese or not? Explain the cheese plz, idk what your saying except you like cheese, or hate it.

To the OP, I use the heal cloak. And I like it. At first I didn't but as you play it more you will learn to use and trust more. I do play the brawler style. In heavy 5-1-1, DW/2H. Heal cloak and vigor is a good combo. Put heal cloak and vigor on same bar with swallow soul slotted and the ult soul siphon slotted and that 14% more healing also. Try too use your heal pots on this bar too. Add troll king with orc or Nord and your survival gets pretty high class. Some advice. Cheers.

This is what I'd love to go for as well. However have no idea what heavy sets to use at all for no-cp. Can you please help or give some tips on good sets?

@rimmidimdim

Sure. I'm using Seventh Legion. It has damage, crit, and health Regen as the 2-3-4 piece. Nice with troll king and Orc or Nord. With the new gold stam "drink" it's really good. Now I said "drink" cause its supposed to be a drink but is considered food at moment so can't use bone pirate untill they fix it. Seventh Legion is easy to get and the five piece is good. I use shacklbreaker breaker with this cause I'm using the heal cloak alot.

Other crafted sets to consider are Tava's favor and Willows path. Tava's has stam and mag Regen and health, good for the heal cloak and ulti Regen. Willows for really good Regen. I want to try shacklbreaker and Tava's but don't have jewelry crafting high enough yet. Willows path will make troll king even better. In non cp, willows and seventh Legion as orc/Nord with gold food you could get close to 5k health regen. I'm 4k in with seventh and shacklbreaker. I do reach 5k in CP. Hope this helps. I'm sure there are other good options these are what I'm using and thinking of using soon. Cheers.

rimmidimdim · June 2018

Sorry, don't know why it double posted.

Nyladreas · June 2018

Thank you for the response!

Jimmy_The_Fixer · June 2018

It's probably not a thoerycrafting or gameplay problem, maybe it's tactics.

Are you staying with your group and not running off by yourself?

When I play my NB I get very high K/D without having to hug my group because I nightblades can disengage from outnumbered fights. But that doesn't work with other classes, you need to clump up with your team and run around as a ball. If anything, I think that's the most likely problem if you're too used to NB.

Ender1310 · July 2018

I have the same problems. On my Sorc ith streak and shield I am fine. On my NB (Mag) with Vamp + stealth fine.

Last patch: WW Templar fury + pelinal tank. Fine. Sword and board 2 hnder troll kings. Once I wolfed out watch out or get eated. I was fine. Not op. I get surrounded I will die. Occaisionally I would pull out the 1vx and down maybe 3 or 4 noobs. In open battle with some heals it took so much to bring me down. Now with Sloads + rune cage every where he gets melted like the swiss cheese please.

I then tried stamblade, all different combos dodge builds roll to win spin to win you name it. Just to much damage coming in. Noobs would spam Jesus beam just to apply sloads + rune cage oh no stealth cuz sloads ded son.

I went bacy to my Mag toons. Sorc is range has good mobility and tanks better then a ww bezerker dripping with steel. Who da thunk it? NB has stealth so..yeah. If you can't beat them join them.

v/r
Orphan

RighteousBacon · July 2018

I’ve recently tried a snb and dual wield stam sorc build. I just didn’t feel powerful in it. I switched to the classic 2handed and snb and it works so much better imo.

I think maybe the build you tried to use is just too situational maybe?

IlCanis_LupuslI · July 2018

mursie wrote: »

Ladies & Gentlemen,

I come seeking advice. This game is brutally difficult in no-cp pvp when you remove the crutches of sloads, cloak, and sub 50 bg's.

Background:
I main a stamblade that can easily kill in cyrodiil and BG's. double digit kills with less than 3 deaths is not uncommon. I also have a magblade that i play 2h/resto. Again - results are about the same.

But I grow tired of relying on cloak for defense because, even I know, it is super cheesy. I see "pros" that play this game as a melee bruiser on stam classes without cloak and they absolutely do not require this crutch to stay alive.

So i have transitioned. Not gender clowns, but class. I tried my hand at a stam warden. Instantly my results dipped to mediocrity. I understand how the class works and where the kills come from due to timed burst with DB/Sub/Reverse Slice. I truly get it. But none the less - being out in the open without cloak I just get rekted to a 50/50 KD at best.

Recently i moved to the stam-sorc. I'm wearing troll king with automaton body, seventh sword and board jewels and back bar - and master dw. Again - i think the gear is there so the only conclusion as to why im 50/50 at best is because I fundamentally do not understand how to survive in this game without cloak.

When i played the stam sorc, stam warden, and mag dk in sub 50 bg's... i would absolutely destroy people. Im talking 32-0 type scores. Now - i'm lucky to see a 5 kill 5 death score board. usually it's worse.

My game plan has been as follows: use shielded assault as a gap closer and introduce major defile via reverb as soon as possible. from there - introduce a ransack armor debuff with LA/bash weave. bar swap and apply blood craze bleed. If in execute - spin 2 win. I infuse the snb bar to prop dmg up when i swap to apply bleed. I have the dw bar nirn'd with poision and infused with shock. it's a master axe for the twin blade and blunt bleed.

yet - the reality is that in bg's my outcome is usually as follows. My damage feels subpar. i pester and annoy people with debuffs more than i actually threaten their health. and then i insta explode. A classic example last night went as follows:

mag sorc at range teeing off on people. I gap close, apply reverb and ransack. apply bleed. He's not even 1/2 health. I basically rinse and repeat the rotation while trying to keep my buffs up (surge, vigor, etc.). He patiently just face tanks me. This goes on for a good 2 full rotations. then, and i'm literally talking instantly, endless fury / haunting curse and you're dead.

I bring this example up because it illustrates my biggest issue. I feel like i get the jump on people. I usually do 2/3's of the total damage in the fight in the first 5 seconds. yet I never bring them into execute and then I am insta exploded.

I will say that i'm an alt aholic and my alts are never fully completed from a skill line perspective (never fully undaunted for more stats, usually some pieces of gear with sub opitmal traits. armor always purple but I do make sure to gold my weapons).

case in point - my stam sorc doesn't have DB yet. (i know i know... this is a huge part of the damage equation most likely) but damn - are we really saying that a stam class is only a stam class that can kill if it can use DB? I've been just using shield wall for the passive sustain while i try to do more ability damage. I don't know.

Would love to get thoughts from good melee bruisers on what allows them to function in a BG without feeling like they will just insta explode. I usually just run tri-pots for potions on all my toons. I try to use LOS as best as possible... but again - at some point you do actually have to get in the face of your opponent to melee bruise... and the reality is - when I do get in the face of an opponent, my damage is not sufficient enough to seal the deal and they just insta explode me.

1st. Heavy armor is mandatory as a bruiser (all my chars are bruises so trust me I know what I'm talking about).
2nd all armor pieces impen so we can spend our cp in more valuable points like less direct or dot damage
3rd as a bruiser don't expect to instakill people unless they are medium wearers or light wearers without shield or cloak, but don't force the kill, and keep them under pressure but never try and force the kill
4th resource management, I usually try and outlast people who can facetank in light(sorc mainly) if their resources r gone they either streak away or try and spam heavy attacks block those then go in 4 the kill.
5th a potion for every situation : I recommend having a wide array of potions with you, and lingering health +vitality when you have to take short but heavy amounts of damage, lingering health+speed vs mag dks, tripods for general fights, and vs sorc I like anti-stun+stamina+health vs those ðarn rune cages.
@mursie 6th = don't take more damage then you hVe 2(dont stand in red)
7th I recommend looking around for werewolf build imo they make excellent bruisers with the right setup.

IlCanis_LupuslI · July 2018

With pvp buffs, continuous + fury procced

DhXE2S4X0AEo_2u?format=jpg

IlCanis_LupuslI · July 2018

Don't mind the bol on the bow bar I ment to put power of the light there lol
Tank af and good damage once fury is procced

Irylia · July 2018

Wow i am pleasantly surprised that someone is acknowledging the easy gameplay of nb and that cloak is incredibly strong.

Just practice and utilize los. Combo skills as close together as possible and I’d add 2h with dw or sb

Irylia · July 2018

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

With pvp buffs, continuous + fury procced

Is that pelinal
How do you get that high of max stats running those two sets not to mention regen

IlCanis_LupuslI · July 2018

Jep;1st) Im a woodelf(21% reg) + serpent mundus(240 reg) and
2nd) wearing infused (2x wd, 1xmagica rec) jewelry
Its basically the "Pelinals Fury(check it out on YT) " build changed a bit for Templar
Instead of dw+2h I changed to 2h+master-bow and changed to the Berserker, pulled out 40 cp from the light attack cp and put it into thraumaturge...

IlCanis_LupuslI · July 2018

Oh yes and the stats r while transformed into ww Form btw^^

Irylia · July 2018

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Oh yes and the stats r while transformed into ww Form btw^^

Doesn’t explain your Stam pool
You lost 3x robust and wood elf has no max Stam
Fury has 1x Stam and the other two sets have none

kaithuzar · July 2018

In order to play the burst/bruiser style, you must understand your kill combo "what do I need to do, in what order, at what timing, in order to kill my opponent".
Typically, this means you need dawnbreaker. If you don't have it, go get it!

I read the first few things but ultimately tldr;
Is your gear gold?
Why don't you have undaunted?

If you want to be competitive, the first rule is understanding that you MUST min/max.
If you're not doing this, you've answered your own question.

Know thy enemy.
Know what gear he's likely using, what his combo is & predict his movements.

Getting kills & staying alive is all about "opportunity costs", know when to take advantage of a player CC'd & when to bounce b/c you're almost out of resources.
Create a situation that you can win by using LOS, baiting, rely on the environment which includes the use of other players

Kel · July 2018

mursie wrote: »

Ladies & Gentlemen,

I come seeking advice. This game is brutally difficult in no-cp pvp when you remove the crutches of sloads, cloak, and sub 50 bg's.

Background:
I main a stamblade that can easily kill in cyrodiil and BG's. double digit kills with less than 3 deaths is not uncommon. I also have a magblade that i play 2h/resto. Again - results are about the same.

But I grow tired of relying on cloak for defense because, even I know, it is super cheesy. I see "pros" that play this game as a melee bruiser on stam classes without cloak and they absolutely do not require this crutch to stay alive.

So i have transitioned. Not gender clowns, but class. I tried my hand at a stam warden. Instantly my results dipped to mediocrity. I understand how the class works and where the kills come from due to timed burst with DB/Sub/Reverse Slice. I truly get it. But none the less - being out in the open without cloak I just get rekted to a 50/50 KD at best.

Recently i moved to the stam-sorc. I'm wearing troll king with automaton body, seventh sword and board jewels and back bar - and master dw. Again - i think the gear is there so the only conclusion as to why im 50/50 at best is because I fundamentally do not understand how to survive in this game without cloak.

When i played the stam sorc, stam warden, and mag dk in sub 50 bg's... i would absolutely destroy people. Im talking 32-0 type scores. Now - i'm lucky to see a 5 kill 5 death score board. usually it's worse.

My game plan has been as follows: use shielded assault as a gap closer and introduce major defile via reverb as soon as possible. from there - introduce a ransack armor debuff with LA/bash weave. bar swap and apply blood craze bleed. If in execute - spin 2 win. I infuse the snb bar to prop dmg up when i swap to apply bleed. I have the dw bar nirn'd with poision and infused with shock. it's a master axe for the twin blade and blunt bleed.

yet - the reality is that in bg's my outcome is usually as follows. My damage feels subpar. i pester and annoy people with debuffs more than i actually threaten their health. and then i insta explode. A classic example last night went as follows:

mag sorc at range teeing off on people. I gap close, apply reverb and ransack. apply bleed. He's not even 1/2 health. I basically rinse and repeat the rotation while trying to keep my buffs up (surge, vigor, etc.). He patiently just face tanks me. This goes on for a good 2 full rotations. then, and i'm literally talking instantly, endless fury / haunting curse and you're dead.

I bring this example up because it illustrates my biggest issue. I feel like i get the jump on people. I usually do 2/3's of the total damage in the fight in the first 5 seconds. yet I never bring them into execute and then I am insta exploded.

I will say that i'm an alt aholic and my alts are never fully completed from a skill line perspective (never fully undaunted for more stats, usually some pieces of gear with sub opitmal traits. armor always purple but I do make sure to gold my weapons).

case in point - my stam sorc doesn't have DB yet. (i know i know... this is a huge part of the damage equation most likely) but damn - are we really saying that a stam class is only a stam class that can kill if it can use DB? I've been just using shield wall for the passive sustain while i try to do more ability damage. I don't know.

Would love to get thoughts from good melee bruisers on what allows them to function in a BG without feeling like they will just insta explode. I usually just run tri-pots for potions on all my toons. I try to use LOS as best as possible... but again - at some point you do actually have to get in the face of your opponent to melee bruise... and the reality is - when I do get in the face of an opponent, my damage is not sufficient enough to seal the deal and they just insta explode me.

I find the opposite is true for me.
Been playing a nightblade for awhile now (a few months) because mainly I get bursted down in seconds by nightblades, and I followed the "can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality.
While I can snipe spam and cloak away easily, I don't do that. THAT is cheesy to me.
I can escape just fine with cloak too, no issues there.
The problem is when I try to burst someone down, the damage just isn't there. This is picking targets too...no 50k dk tanks or shield stacking sorcs.
I got the combo down..from cloak: bow bar-heavy attack/poison injection switch to 2h-ambush/light attack/mass hysteria/incap/suprise attack/killers blade
But...the kill isn't there.

I've just come to the conclusion that nightblade just isn't for me in PvP. I'm bad at it. And I'm fine with that. Maybe a melee class just doesn't fit your playstyle, and that's fine.

mursie · July 2018

jabrone77 wrote: »

I've just come to the conclusion that nightblade just isn't for me in PvP. I'm bad at it. And I'm fine with that. Maybe a melee class just doesn't fit your playstyle, and that's fine.

what gear are you wearing? from your comments I'd say the following:

master's bow is a huge upgrade on your performance if you are bow/2h. your opener is correct. LA/poison inject. from there you can cloak / HA / surprise attack or gap close. ambush vs. critical rush are up to you. i actually slightly prefer critical rush because it hits a bit harder and is one more chance at applying the double dmg poision. From there I like to use executioner from the 2h'er line - not killer's blade. KB requires 25% threshold to kick in - executioner works at anything below 50% and is pretty nice in that 30 to 40% range that opponents are typical at after the opener.

Sparr0w · July 2018

Cloaks reactive gameplay, you've got to anticipate damage and ensure buffs/heals are up before combat. Bit of a transition but I find the brawler gameplay a lot more rewarding.