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Bug? Biting Jabs, Selene’s, & Mechanical Acuity
Aedris43
✭
I think that either Selene’s or Biting Jabs or both are bugged.
Biting Jabs procs Selene’s implying that Biting Jabs is Direct Melee Damage.
Biting Jabs does not proc the new Mechanical Acuity set implying that Biting Jabs is not Direct Damage.
(I could stop here but my editorial on proc sets and damage types is starting now)
Biting Jabs/Puncturing Sweeps does not proc Scathing Mage implying neither is direct damage.
Puncturing Sweeps does not proc Selene’s implying Puncturing Sweeps is not Direct Melee Damage.
Jabs/Sweeps benefit from Thaumaturge and not Master-at-Arms implying they are DoT and not Direct Damage.
I haven’t fully tested all combinations of Jabs/Sweeps + PROC SET, but it seems to me that I have already listed a few discrepancies in procs and naming conventions. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE that Biting Jabs can proc Selene’s, but having inconsistencies in ability types can make it enormously frustrating to be able to predict whether or not farming a certain proc set will be worth while. For example I spent a long time getting 5 set of Scathing Mage only to find out that Sweeps doesn’t proc it. I had figured it would be a viable alternative to BSW (due to the fact its cool down and duration are the same) and I knew Biting Jabs procs Selene’s (meaning sweeps is probably Direct Damage too), so guessed that sweeps would end up proccing Scathing Mage relatively quickly after the cool down was up. Nope! I did get some Elegant Lining though...
Biting Jabs procs Selene’s implying that Biting Jabs is Direct Melee Damage.
Biting Jabs does not proc the new Mechanical Acuity set implying that Biting Jabs is not Direct Damage.
(I could stop here but my editorial on proc sets and damage types is starting now)
Biting Jabs/Puncturing Sweeps does not proc Scathing Mage implying neither is direct damage.
Puncturing Sweeps does not proc Selene’s implying Puncturing Sweeps is not Direct Melee Damage.
Jabs/Sweeps benefit from Thaumaturge and not Master-at-Arms implying they are DoT and not Direct Damage.
I haven’t fully tested all combinations of Jabs/Sweeps + PROC SET, but it seems to me that I have already listed a few discrepancies in procs and naming conventions. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE that Biting Jabs can proc Selene’s, but having inconsistencies in ability types can make it enormously frustrating to be able to predict whether or not farming a certain proc set will be worth while. For example I spent a long time getting 5 set of Scathing Mage only to find out that Sweeps doesn’t proc it. I had figured it would be a viable alternative to BSW (due to the fact its cool down and duration are the same) and I knew Biting Jabs procs Selene’s (meaning sweeps is probably Direct Damage too), so guessed that sweeps would end up proccing Scathing Mage relatively quickly after the cool down was up. Nope! I did get some Elegant Lining though...
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Vajrak✭✭✭Biting Jabs/Sweeps is a DoT/Channeled ability, not Direct Damage. Burning Light (which does benefit from Master-At-Arms) IS Direct damage, and jabs/sweeps CAN proc Burning Light, which in turn CAN proc the Direct damage sets --- but it is a % chance on top of a % chance, so it won't happen very often.
This isn't a bug in any sense, has been a known fact of the skill for quite a long time.
Blazing Spear/morphs the first hit is direct damage, the burn is DoT
Jabs/Sweeps is entirely DoT with a 25% chance to proc Burning Light (DD) --- so you end up with something less than a 2% chance to proc direct damage sets with them.
Templar DPS is best served with general damage boosts -- i.e. Physical Damage, Magic Damage, Weapon Damage --- over specific effects/elemental boosts. Thus why sets like Automaton (Stamplar) and War Maiden (Magplar) are strong for a Templar DPS, with the appropriate set by main stat paired (Hundings/Julianos).
By same token, your CP Distribution is going to gain strong benefits from Thaumaturge on either build (due to sweeps, jabs, and that we are using a lot of DoTs anyway you cover it, either shards or endless hail, caltrops/ritual of retribution (hot/dot with similar damage to caltrops)), and Master-At-Arms, for initial hit of some skills and Burning Light procs.
Same token, if Stamplar -- skip the 2h Sword --- you'll get more benefit from either a Maul (20% resistance ignored) or 2h Axe (the bleed effect, which jabs gives you 4 chances per cast to proc, along with burning light).
Magplar, other than specific builds, you are going to get the most benefit from Lightning staff, because almost everything in magplar's kit (except for sunfire and morphs, darkflare, and purifying light) is an AoE skill.
So to answer to your primary question: Neither is bugged. It's just a misunderstanding of the abilities you are using to try to proc the set. Also note, Stamplar you are generally better off just pumping more AoE procs in if you are going with a monster set -- skip selene's and grab Kra'gh --- since it's an all damage proc, everything you have will set it off pretty much on CD.
TLDR Version --- Burning Light is DD, not Jabs/Sweeps. Burning Light can proc selene's/scathing mage but it is a VERY low chance as you are doing a % proc (25% for BL) on a % proc (whichever chance on the relevant sets).
edit2/additional info: Jabs/Sweeps being AoE (other than latency issues/recent code errors) are not able to be dodged.Edited by Vajrak on June 23, 2018 6:19PM6 -
Aedris43✭Biting Jabs/Sweeps is a DoT/Channeled ability, not Direct Damage. Burning Light (which does benefit from Master-At-Arms) IS Direct damage, and jabs/sweeps CAN proc Burning Light, which in turn CAN proc the Direct damage sets --- but it is a % chance on top of a % chance, so it won't happen very often.
This isn't a bug in any sense, has been a known fact of the skill for quite a long time.
Blazing Spear/morphs the first hit is direct damage, the burn is DoT
Jabs/Sweeps is entirely DoT with a 25% chance to proc Burning Light (DD) --- so you end up with something less than a 2% chance to proc direct damage sets with them.
Templar DPS is best served with general damage boosts -- i.e. Physical Damage, Magic Damage, Weapon Damage --- over specific effects/elemental boosts. Thus why sets like Automaton (Stamplar) and War Maiden (Magplar) are strong for a Templar DPS, with the appropriate set by main stat paired (Hundings/Julianos).
By same token, your CP Distribution is going to gain strong benefits from Thaumaturge on either build (due to sweeps, jabs, and that we are using a lot of DoTs anyway you cover it, either shards or endless hail, caltrops/ritual of retribution (hot/dot with similar damage to caltrops)), and Master-At-Arms, for initial hit of some skills and Burning Light procs.
Same token, if Stamplar -- skip the 2h Sword --- you'll get more benefit from either a Maul (20% resistance ignored) or 2h Axe (the bleed effect, which jabs gives you 4 chances per cast to proc, along with burning light).
Magplar, other than specific builds, you are going to get the most benefit from Lightning staff, because almost everything in magplar's kit (except for sunfire and morphs, darkflare, and purifying light) is an AoE skill.
So to answer to your primary question: Neither is bugged. It's just a misunderstanding of the abilities you are using to try to proc the set. Also note, Stamplar you are generally better off just pumping more AoE procs in if you are going with a monster set -- skip selene's and grab Kra'gh --- since it's an all damage proc, everything you have will set it off pretty much on CD.
TLDR Version --- Burning Light is DD, not Jabs/Sweeps. Burning Light can proc selene's/scathing mage but it is a VERY low chance as you are doing a % proc (25% for BL) on a % proc (whichever chance on the relevant sets).
edit2/additional info: Jabs/Sweeps being AoE (other than latency issues/recent code errors) are not able to be dodged.
You might be correct, but Selene’s procs extremely often when just jab spamming, and Scathing never procs at all even after doing hundreds of sweeps, I don’t think that it ALL comes down to burning light. I’ll do some tests and get some numbers with parses in the next few days (I hope), and I’ll put no points into BL to test that claim.
Also, as Stamplar, Selene’s is almost unmatched in single target dps in my experience (maybe I shouldn’t be, but I’m Jabs heavy). I’ve tried Kragh’s but it’s almost a wash from what I’ve been able to tell which is part of the reason I think Selene’s is proccing off of Jabs.Edited by Aedris43 on June 23, 2018 7:55PM0 -
Aedris43✭Biting Jabs/Sweeps is a DoT/Channeled ability, not Direct Damage. Burning Light (which does benefit from Master-At-Arms) IS Direct damage, and jabs/sweeps CAN proc Burning Light, which in turn CAN proc the Direct damage sets --- but it is a % chance on top of a % chance, so it won't happen very often.
This isn't a bug in any sense, has been a known fact of the skill for quite a long time.
Blazing Spear/morphs the first hit is direct damage, the burn is DoT
Jabs/Sweeps is entirely DoT with a 25% chance to proc Burning Light (DD) --- so you end up with something less than a 2% chance to proc direct damage sets with them.
Templar DPS is best served with general damage boosts -- i.e. Physical Damage, Magic Damage, Weapon Damage --- over specific effects/elemental boosts. Thus why sets like Automaton (Stamplar) and War Maiden (Magplar) are strong for a Templar DPS, with the appropriate set by main stat paired (Hundings/Julianos).
By same token, your CP Distribution is going to gain strong benefits from Thaumaturge on either build (due to sweeps, jabs, and that we are using a lot of DoTs anyway you cover it, either shards or endless hail, caltrops/ritual of retribution (hot/dot with similar damage to caltrops)), and Master-At-Arms, for initial hit of some skills and Burning Light procs.
Same token, if Stamplar -- skip the 2h Sword --- you'll get more benefit from either a Maul (20% resistance ignored) or 2h Axe (the bleed effect, which jabs gives you 4 chances per cast to proc, along with burning light).
Magplar, other than specific builds, you are going to get the most benefit from Lightning staff, because almost everything in magplar's kit (except for sunfire and morphs, darkflare, and purifying light) is an AoE skill.
So to answer to your primary question: Neither is bugged. It's just a misunderstanding of the abilities you are using to try to proc the set. Also note, Stamplar you are generally better off just pumping more AoE procs in if you are going with a monster set -- skip selene's and grab Kra'gh --- since it's an all damage proc, everything you have will set it off pretty much on CD.
TLDR Version --- Burning Light is DD, not Jabs/Sweeps. Burning Light can proc selene's/scathing mage but it is a VERY low chance as you are doing a % proc (25% for BL) on a % proc (whichever chance on the relevant sets).
edit2/additional info: Jabs/Sweeps being AoE (other than latency issues/recent code errors) are not able to be dodged.
Test results are in!
Biting Jabs procs Selene's when my only 2 skill points chosen are for getting Biting Jabs. Not only that, it procced twice in 3 jab attempts (12 hits) which provides some (albeit only a little) evidence that it isn't a .25 * .2 = .05% proc chance from burning light like you were implying, but is actually calculated as a chance per jab damage (not even attack). This is why my experience with Selene's has been so great, it will almost always proc within 2 jab attempts making the realistic cooldown only 5-6 seconds for a massive hit (~14k).
Puncturing Strikes/Puncturing Sweeps (morph) never procced Selene's with or without burning light skilled. I collected 5 mudcrabs and did 10 strikes/sweeps (different times) and nothing procced.
At this point I'm even more positive about my claim, Biting Jabs is different than Puncturing Sweeps in some way and it DOES proc Selene's without Burning Light.3 -
Vajrak✭✭✭I'm glad you took the time to test it, and that does mean at least the stam morph does bear further investigation. Without testing, we will never fully ascertain these things, and it could be a coding error, or a part of the code as of yet unannounced as they work towards different builds and skills --- jabs having a DD component would be suggestive of allowing it to be more in line with other Stamina builds, while Sweeps lacking it makes perfect sense since Magplar already gets it's own intrinsic Caltrops via Ritual of Retribution.
Also, I don't have the information on hand, but I can level/build a new Stamplar to test Kra'gh set vs Selene, but I've always gotten best results not using any monster set unless it was Molag Kena for the power boost, which works well for me since I Heavy Weave on my 2h Stampy.
Be wary of your investigation though -- the error MAY be in Selene's, and if it is rectified the power burst you are getting from it will end up being removed.Edited by Vajrak on June 23, 2018 10:38PM0 -
Aedris43✭Be wary of your investigation though -- the error MAY be in Selene's, and if it is rectified the power burst you are getting from it will end up being removed.
I’m absolutely worried about that, but at this point I’ve been so confused about sets that I’ve tested in the past and how they don’t seem to work the way I’d expect (like this example, Scathing, Mech Acuity, Nerien’eth) that I’d rather shine a light into the dark corner of procs and how they’re related to damage types and risk getting my favorite build nerfed (ravager dual wield, vMA bow backbar, ravager jewelry, 5xVO, 2xSelene’s). As it has been like this for at least a couple years, I’m hoping ZOS won’t just nerf Selene’s into the ground for me!0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Do not use selenes when testing for direct damage vs damage over time. Use nerienth. Simple.1 -
Aedris43✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Do not use selenes when testing for direct damage vs damage over time. Use nerienth. Simple.
Part of the point of this thread is that something is broken (or has exceptions) and I don’t find there to be a lot of predictive value in testing one set and extrapolating to know if I can use others.
Obviously, biting Jabs is both a direct damage attack and not a direct damage attack. I don’t need Nerien’eth to confirm either one of those. By the way, Nerien’eth doesn’t proc on Puncturing Sweeps, but as I’ve also mentioned, that might not mean it doesn’t proc with Biting Jabs!Edited by Aedris43 on June 24, 2018 1:42PM0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭. Obviously, biting Jabs is both a direct damage attack and not a direct damage attack
Obviously not, because jabs does not proc nerienth. Selenes is "direct melee damage"., This means something different in zosland, as selenes also procs off of deadly cloak.
Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on June 24, 2018 4:53PM1 -
WatchYourSixx✭✭✭✭Last I tested on pts several months ago, biting jabs was both direct damage and Dot, benefiting from both master at arms and thaumaturge. With no points into burning light, it has always proc'd selenes since the set came out.
I would test other sets that are conditional on direct damage or damage over time, just to see if it's just selenes that acts that way or if all sets treat it as both. One thing selenes might be considering different is melee damage as a "physical" damage and therefore not proc on the other morphs.The only thing to fear is, fear itself. - FDR
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Aedris43✭WatchYourSixx wrote: »Last I tested on pts several months ago, biting jabs was both direct damage and Dot, benefiting from both master at arms and thaumaturge. With no points into burning light, it has always proc'd selenes since the set came out.
I would test other sets that are conditional on direct damage or damage over time, just to see if it's just selenes that acts that way or if all sets treat it as both. One thing selenes might be considering different is melee damage as a "physical" damage and therefore not proc on the other morphs.
I just tested, Master-At-Arms does not affect either Jabs or Sweeps. Thaumaturge affects both.
Also, Jabs procs Skoria, does not proc Mechanical Acuity, does not proc Nerien'eth, does not proc Scathing Mage. It’s definitely supposed to be a DoT and doubtfully direct damage. Although, I do remember at one point in time the two morphs were affected by both Thaumaturge and Master-At-Arms. Seems like it’s just Thaumaturge now.1 -
Khivas_Carrick✭✭✭✭✭tbh I just learned that Jabs can proc axe bleeds, which makes axes a lot more useful but I'm not sure if it's better than a Maul.
*the more you know*Bobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!0
