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8 Ways to Counter "Uncounterable" mSorc Burst - ZOS please read
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BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I remember people used to defend sorcs by saying their combo is very telegraphed. Glad to see its time to defend sorc by saying people dont have enough HP and resistances.
You mean back in the days when the combo was actually threatening because we had higher overall dmg + higher critdmg higher frag dmg and higher penetration?
Just to give some perspective in that regard - back in 1 tamriel my procced frags had a tooltip of 21200dmg alongside 14% higher critdmg from old shadow mundus and 2500 more penetration from sharp.
Nowadays on a build with comparable sustain to the one mentioned above my procced frags is around 18500 tooltip and the whole combo is missing 14% flat dmg on crits.
This is not meant to defend the current state of cage - because it´s asinine. But it´s to show that statements from the good old days do not hold true anymore because how much the game changed.
Apart from the the combo is still telegraphed and therefor defendable if you have the right tools - so people could make that argument still (but it would be more along the lines of cloak counters).
Well, everyone lost sharp and let's not forget about the light attack changes and rune cage damage that increased the sorc burst by a lot more than the lost damage with frags 10% damage loss and 14% less crit damage.
The current sorc burst is in no way weak or unable to kill people, just want to recall some of the fights @Murador178 had on the pts. Anything that had less than 23k health or no shields died, best fight being the 30k health magdk that got oneshotted.
And that's what i want to stress(as you did with the bolded part) , if you fight a sorc and you don't have full health or at least 20k+ when he starts the burst you're dead, no matter who you fight, if he knows what he's doing or if he just got lucky.
Either you manage to have a good counter or you're SOL and that's just bad game design, just like shieldbreaker, just like sloads, just like procs, like cloak.
There has to be something, you have to be able to do even when you aren't at full health to survive the sorcs burst rota just like there is for all other classes. Yes there should be situations where you messed up and deserve to die but 18-19k health isn't where I'd put that threshold.
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Killset✭✭✭✭
There are several ways to arrive at that but yes, spinners is the common denominator. These aren’t glass cannon one shot wonder builds either. They can duke it out.Waffennacht wrote: »
Im at 3026Waffennacht wrote: »
Then those numbers are because of penetration rather than crits. No way you're taking that much damage in your set up without them running a lot of penetration. Unless they have... What an 24k curse tooltip? Which is pretty insane....
Maybe alchemist and spinners? I dunno
What’s helped me out in duels is running Temporal Guard on my back bar and when I get Meteor’d switching to it before the Rune CC hits. The minor protection keeps the combo from being a death sentence. This is in heavy mind you. Medium armor is now out of the question against an even mediocre Sorc with a good build. The sad thing is Sorcs run Temporal Guard on their shield stacking bar too.
When I have friends who go 29-2 in BG’s within minutes of loading onto their sorc and not having played the class in 1 year, something is wrong. Man, believe me when I say I don’t like to see classes nerfed. Especially when I suspect people are calling for nerfs because their master plan is to bring everything down to their level. But if things stay the way they are, who is going to want to PvP anymore? Unless you are on a sorc of course
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Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I remember people used to defend sorcs by saying their combo is very telegraphed. Glad to see its time to defend sorc by saying people dont have enough HP and resistances.
You mean back in the days when the combo was actually threatening because we had higher overall dmg + higher critdmg higher frag dmg and higher penetration?
Just to give some perspective in that regard - back in 1 tamriel my procced frags had a tooltip of 21200dmg alongside 14% higher critdmg from old shadow mundus and 2500 more penetration from sharp.
Nowadays on a build with comparable sustain to the one mentioned above my procced frags is around 18500 tooltip and the whole combo is missing 14% flat dmg on crits.
This is not meant to defend the current state of cage - because it´s asinine. But it´s to show that statements from the good old days do not hold true anymore because how much the game changed.
Apart from the the combo is still telegraphed and therefor defendable if you have the right tools - so people could make that argument still (but it would be more along the lines of cloak counters).
Well, everyone lost sharp and let's not forget about the light attack changes and rune cage damage that increased the sorc burst by a lot more than the lost damage with frags 10% damage loss and 14% less crit damage.
The current sorc burst is in no way weak or unable to kill people, just want to recall some of the fights @Murador178 had on the pts. Anything that had less than 23k health or no shields died, best fight being the 30k health magdk that got oneshotted.
And that's what i want to stress(as you did with the bolded part) , if you fight a sorc and you don't have full health or at least 20k+ when he starts the burst you're dead, no matter who you fight, if he knows what he's doing or if he just got lucky.
Either you manage to have a good counter or you're SOL and that's just bad game design, just like shieldbreaker, just like sloads, just like procs, like cloak.
There has to be something, you have to be able to do even when you aren't at full health to survive the sorcs burst rota just like there is for all other classes. Yes there should be situations where you messed up and deserve to die but 18-19k health isn't where I'd put that threshold.
Main problem on his build imo isn't Rune Cage but Ele Drain. That skill is so strong that even Incap feels undertuned compared to it.
Also staffs with infused trait and the magicka restore glyph are insane now. That + Ele Drain allows to build for super high damage which wouldn't be sustainable otherwise.
Edit: And don't get my started talking about Shadowrend...Edited by Ragnaroek93 on June 25, 2018 3:04PMI used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »I remember people used to defend sorcs by saying their combo is very telegraphed. Glad to see its time to defend sorc by saying people dont have enough HP and resistances.
You mean back in the days when the combo was actually threatening because we had higher overall dmg + higher critdmg higher frag dmg and higher penetration?
Just to give some perspective in that regard - back in 1 tamriel my procced frags had a tooltip of 21200dmg alongside 14% higher critdmg from old shadow mundus and 2500 more penetration from sharp.
Nowadays on a build with comparable sustain to the one mentioned above my procced frags is around 18500 tooltip and the whole combo is missing 14% flat dmg on crits.
This is not meant to defend the current state of cage - because it´s asinine. But it´s to show that statements from the good old days do not hold true anymore because how much the game changed.
Apart from the the combo is still telegraphed and therefor defendable if you have the right tools - so people could make that argument still (but it would be more along the lines of cloak counters).
Well, everyone lost sharp and let's not forget about the light attack changes and rune cage damage that increased the sorc burst by a lot more than the lost damage with frags 10% damage loss and 14% less crit damage.
The current sorc burst is in no way weak or unable to kill people, just want to recall some of the fights @Murador178 had on the pts. Anything that had less than 23k health or no shields died, best fight being the 30k health magdk that got oneshotted.
And that's what i want to stress(as you did with the bolded part) , if you fight a sorc and you don't have full health or at least 20k+ when he starts the burst you're dead, no matter who you fight, if he knows what he's doing or if he just got lucky.
Either you manage to have a good counter or you're SOL and that's just bad game design, just like shieldbreaker, just like sloads, just like procs, like cloak.
There has to be something, you have to be able to do even when you aren't at full health to survive the sorcs burst rota just like there is for all other classes. Yes there should be situations where you messed up and deserve to die but 18-19k health isn't where I'd put that threshold.
Main problem on his build imo isn't Rune Cage but Ele Drain. That skill is so strong that even Incap feels undertuned compared to it.
Also staffs with infused trait and the magicka restore glyph are insane now. That + Ele Drain allows to build for super high damage which wouldn't be sustainable otherwise.
Edit: And don't get my started talking about Shadowrend...
Without rune cage he wouldn't be able however to remove any counterplay
I know he was running a pretty strong/broken duel build but what any sorc can do with rune cage atm is just too easy and too muchEdited by BohnT on June 25, 2018 3:07PM1 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭That is why possible, though single target closet unblockable (And by current AoE, already undodgable) stun on streak seems plausible. Instead of it being a truly offensive ability, it would be on the offensive escape morph, allowing you to stun the targets, and make your escape more guaranteed or time it with a meteor at the cost of being melee. It reinforces the movement is a sorc's forte from early game, and unlike pure CC rune, it wouldn't be a wasted slot or cast for just a CC.
The problem with that approach would be having your cc on a stacking cost increase ability that can also miss.
Then also streak stun is only 0.5s longer than cc break animation in the first place.
Imo it would have to be accompanied by atleast adding a "no cost increase on stunning a target" with streak?
Yeah that is fair. I mean, frags stun can also be a thing so that a sorc doesn't have get melee for any chance at a stun, but only for a more guaranteed one with risks. It won't be OP because lord knows the NBs have enough stuns in their toolkit@Derra
Let‘s face it. Most people just don’t really want Sorcs to have any longer offensive potential at all. I mean, there were nerf Sorc posts even before Summerset.
Top cry. No, no one wants that, why would people just want random nerfs to one class just because? Oh yeah they won't and you are oversimplifying to defend crutches. People just don't want rarted OP mechanics in the game.
I am perfectly fine with buffing sorc in places it should be. As mentioned, mobility, burst in smart ways. But how is it that sorcs end up consistently stronger post nerfs. Curse ended up buffed, CC and bursting potential ended up buffed, OL builds ended up buffed. Sorc and NB overall is in a much better spot than pre morrowind, where the others are worse (well, warden from morrow-now) pretty much by crying the loudest about every nerf.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.5 -
Killset✭✭✭✭
Just retested the numbers with Lifelongmovie and they are completely attainable and duplicatable on an open world build. Send me an in game message sometime if you don’t believe me.Waffennacht wrote: »
Im at 3026Waffennacht wrote: »
Then those numbers are because of penetration rather than crits. No way you're taking that much damage in your set up without them running a lot of penetration. Unless they have... What an 24k curse tooltip? Which is pretty insane....
Maybe alchemist and spinners? I dunno
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Neoauspex✭✭✭✭✭
✭I love the Fox News style spin of "sorcs don't get to take advantage of tristat glyphs" hahahaha. That's some rock solid propaganda right there.3 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I remember people used to defend sorcs by saying their combo is very telegraphed. Glad to see its time to defend sorc by saying people dont have enough HP and resistances.
You mean back in the days when the combo was actually threatening because we had higher overall dmg + higher critdmg higher frag dmg and higher penetration?
Just to give some perspective in that regard - back in 1 tamriel my procced frags had a tooltip of 21200dmg alongside 14% higher critdmg from old shadow mundus and 2500 more penetration from sharp.
Nowadays on a build with comparable sustain to the one mentioned above my procced frags is around 18500 tooltip and the whole combo is missing 14% flat dmg on crits.
This is not meant to defend the current state of cage - because it´s asinine. But it´s to show that statements from the good old days do not hold true anymore because how much the game changed.
Apart from the the combo is still telegraphed and therefor defendable if you have the right tools - so people could make that argument still (but it would be more along the lines of cloak counters).
I know that statement doesnt hold that much because the burst potential of sorcs got somewhat lower, but sorcs are based on that. They were balanced around that. All the issues around them (both for users and people fighting them) dont really make up for the fact their combo is supposed to be telegraphed to give opportunity to counter and then this one skill came along and poof.
Not that I want to complain too much. Its just the design of skills does not belong to this class at all in my opinion. No matter what is the general opinion about strength of the class as whole.
(tho playing something else than warden with shimmering, I would complain probably more)Edited by SodanTok on June 25, 2018 5:38PM0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Just retested the numbers with Lifelongmovie and they are completely attainable and duplicatable on an open world build. Send me an in game message sometime if you don’t believe me.Waffennacht wrote: »
Im at 3026Waffennacht wrote: »
Then those numbers are because of penetration rather than crits. No way you're taking that much damage in your set up without them running a lot of penetration. Unless they have... What an 24k curse tooltip? Which is pretty insane....
Maybe alchemist and spinners? I dunno
Oh I believe you, it was more of wondering what he was using. Because with over 3k impen you have approximately remove all crit damage (well anything above 50% crit mod ... So like +20% ish max?) So numbers shouldn't be that high via crit.
But they can get that high via penetration, and if you specced for crit resistance rather than penetration, you're gonna get hit that hard.
The thing I wondered was, what sets they would be pairing together to get such numbers? I have always stayed away from certain popular sets like Spinners back in the day. So I kinda assume those sets.
I never doubted your word for a sec 0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I remember people used to defend sorcs by saying their combo is very telegraphed. Glad to see its time to defend sorc by saying people dont have enough HP and resistances.
You mean back in the days when the combo was actually threatening because we had higher overall dmg + higher critdmg higher frag dmg and higher penetration?
Just to give some perspective in that regard - back in 1 tamriel my procced frags had a tooltip of 21200dmg alongside 14% higher critdmg from old shadow mundus and 2500 more penetration from sharp.
Nowadays on a build with comparable sustain to the one mentioned above my procced frags is around 18500 tooltip and the whole combo is missing 14% flat dmg on crits.
This is not meant to defend the current state of cage - because it´s asinine. But it´s to show that statements from the good old days do not hold true anymore because how much the game changed.
Apart from the the combo is still telegraphed and therefor defendable if you have the right tools - so people could make that argument still (but it would be more along the lines of cloak counters).
I know that statement doesnt hold that much because the burst potential of sorcs got somewhat lower, but sorcs are based on that. They were balanced around that.
That´s 100% the issue of the sorc class and why personally say they´re a broken class on a conceptional level.
I´d say they were never "balanced" around that because they were never balanced. They were either too strong (homestead/ summerset) or too weak (the patches in between).
Sorc is telegraphed delayed burst - runecage didn´t really change that - it just reduced the vaible counters to said burst drastically. It is however still counterable much in the same way that sorc burst always was counterable.
The problem with a pure delayed burst concept is that it´s always either OP or too weak if the class does not allow for pressure outside of this burst.
You either die or you don´t.Edited by Derra on June 25, 2018 5:57PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭New advice - just breakfree and block instantly. Runecage dmg is blockable :P<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501