There is so many laughable and totally incorrect points in OP post that I think I'll pass with responding to it.

What killed me the most is quote "I think there are also a lot of out-of-proportion complaints about sorc burst because dying from a sorc (mines, curse animation, cage falling from heaven, exploding into 0 HP) is a very visually impressive way to die..."
Pure gold. Lets all be happy and stop QQing because magsorcs offer us beatifull way to die not like all those other ugly deaths

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Sorcs are telling other classes that they need to stack health and resis

So true, it just goes to show how sorcs obviously live in the land of hypocrisy and only "rarely" come here to real world to tell us potatoes/plebs how to l2p...

Dionysus wrote: »

I hate to come out of the woodworks and post this as I main a magsorc (and magblade), but this needs airing out to avoid some out-of-nowhere nerf to one of sorcs abilities (probably would end up being something other than Rune Cage). I think there are also a lot of out-of-proportion complaints about sorc burst because dying from a sorc (mines, curse animation, cage falling from heaven, exploding into 0 HP) is a very visually impressive way to die, and dying from several other OP specs right now (bleed, stam, oblivion) just looks like getting hit with swords until your recap screen loads.

This is what others abbreviate as the "L2P" that others reference in the whine threads. You need to adapt to the current game. For instance, many sorcs now slot HoTs for Sloads. Many good players dropped vamp due to increased light attack damage. They don't want to lose the bar space or vamp perks, but changing with the game is what sets good players apart. There are less streamers now, making this tougher to do on your own.

So in the interest of us all getting better:

1. Have enough effective HP (HP x Resistance x Crit Resistance) to mitigate the current increased levels of damage output in the game. In my experience as an msorc, this is about 24k HP with about 18k spell resist or 22-23k with 25k spell resist for an unshielded player. I'm sorry Sypher told you in 2016 that you need 20k HP for Cyrodil with "all points into stam."

2. In hand with the above, take advantage of tri-stat armor glyphs and the brand-new Triune trait that net-benefits almost every spec but magsorc. These math-advantaged glyphs benefit almost everyone more (especially DKs and Argonian race); msorc is uniquely balanced (which some call an "advantage") where our primary defense (max magicka/shields) goes from good to useless if we drop our magicka, thus we have to give up essentially 4k of free HP/stam.

3. The 3 light attacks in the magsorc burst combo amount to ~9k player damage with recent light attack buffs. This is probably more harmful than Rune Cage. They are dodgeable, blockable, and reflectable, and taking 2 out of 3 of them in the face is completely voluntary. Whether you prefer HoTs, dodge rolling, cloak, or blocking, eliminating this damage and the 2-3k initial Fury hit is easy for good players. If you avoid all of these, and have any reasonable effective HP, you will not die to sorc burst without a chance to retaliate.

4. Use immovable pots (and/or the Immovable skill) nullifying the sorc burst for 10.4 seconds. Go from being an Xv1er slotting resource-drain poisons to slotting Immovable poisons.

5. If you are running an Xv1 build (Eye of the Storm, resource poisons, not enough stam to break free more than twice, low HP with all damage sets, roll dodge as your only defense), don't expect to win alone vs. a competent player of any class with a 1v1 or 1vX build.

6. If you are a DK and you are not slotting wings, you are not adapting to the game.

7. If your build uses primarily HoTs, roll dodge, or cloak for defense, and you are dying to light attacks and direct damage more than DoTs, put CP into Direct Damage AND Light/Heavy Attack mitigation stars rather than DoT or physical defense stars. This is adapting.

8. The main way to counter sorc burst, even if you completely ignore every single point above, is to time your CC as soon as you see their Curse. A sorc's burst window (Shield-Shield-swap-Curse-Fury-Cage-Frag) takes 6 seconds if executed perfectly, and that is conveniently also the CC cooldown time.

If a sorc slots immovable pots, then you use your immovable pot, then both wait 10 seconds, and a sorc gets his full 6-skill burst combo in and times it perfectly so that not a single HoT tick occurs in between procs, and your effective HP is low enough to go to execute, and you haven't CC'd him, and haven't gotten your burst combo in first, and neither did your friend, then you didn't get cheesed. You got outplayed.

Signed,
Sorcs of Tamriel

- Dionysus

Lol so you want everyone to change their whole setup to counter one skill that is clearly overpowered on a class that most would agree was already over performing?

This is how I interpreted your post btw

"I was a garbage player with no thumbs before summerset but now I'm finally relevant cause I have an unbreakable 5k damaging cc that no one can counter"

KingJ wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

^
[...] that most BAD PLAYERS would agree was already overperforming [...]
No dueling guild would actually claim sorc had a fighting chance. And if you can't even 1v1 a competent player, how are you supposed to deal with Cyrodiil? The class seemed overperforming to you because we specificially picked on the weaker players.

Ohh shutup all you do is cry.Ohh what what abour shield breake what about sload ohh we need dumb a$$ abilities on sorc because reason.Anything dumb sorc has like rune cage you defend to the death.Everyone know shields breaker dumb hard counters are dumb stop acting like sorc is crap and always been crap it never been bad.You defend it like its the worst class in the game when its still is top 2 magic classes for pvp and pve.

Yees, let the hate flow through you. Pay the price for every time you pulled that Shieldbreaket bow string.
Maybe you should have helped us sorcs in the past when we complained about uncounterable Shieldbreaker instead of laughing at us?
Well, who's laughing now?
Oh, and I wasn't for Rune Cage damage. I was for Frag damage. I actually have a clear picture of my class, it's you who's simply biased and now raging because you have to swallow your own medicine.

Dionysus wrote: »

Some great insights especially Emma's with Mist Form and Derra's suggestions above.

I think some of you are sleeping on the Immovable option. Immovable potions remove 10.4 out of 45 seconds of burst opportunity. Immovable poisons remove 4.4 seconds every 10-14 seconds of the remaining 34.6 seconds, making the sorc unsure when his combo will work during intermittent short windows of availability.

Lmfao.

The fact you think slotting Immovable Poisons (which btw again f's up your burst since you can't get Defile/Vulnerability/Poison Damage Poisons with those) with Immovable Potion tells me all I need to know about your knowledge of game mechanics.

Here's a little problem: you can't control when your poison goes off. It might go off right after you Immovable Potion ends.. or it might just overlap your Immovable Potion and do nothing.


This is a contender for worst idea 2018, right up there with "slot Purge".

Dionysus wrote: »

If you don't want to slot one poison, or learn to CC after Curse, or build any effective HP, or slot Mist form, or use Purge, or use Wings, OR learn to burst faster than the sorc burst as some of the skilled stam players above mentioned, that's on you.

You don't burst through Hardened+Harness faster than it takes for a sorc to LA+Curse->LA+Wrath+LA+Cage+LA+Frag. Especially when you're outnumbered & running/rolling/cloaking away from a zerg.

The only way to burst them fast enough is to catch them from stealth while their shields are down.

Dionysus wrote: »

To the argument that "but... if a sorc does A, B, C, D, E, then F, and I have X, Y, Z build without H, I, J, then I die": That's how the game works. One player dies once one makes the appropriate moves first. Yes, sorry your 7th/Fury/BSpawn build is used to not having to die, and perhaps ZoS even intentionally (gasp) gave magicka the additional staff set-piece so that damage distribution could now allow these builds to kill or get killed in an appropriate ratio.

...except it still doesn't kill tank builds when they stack even more defense & cancer sets like Impregnable or Brass.

The only ones it does kill are non-meta medium armor builds that already underperformed compared to their heavy armor counterparts.

Dionysus wrote: »

Some of you are also ironically underestimating what other classes do to counter your own builds, and acting like having to slot a single skill/potion/poison is a huge sacrifice, however, for yourself. Adding 2k HP is NOT "building a tank"; it's a few Tristat glyphs. Sorry you can't keep your gold glyphs from 2016, but they aren't that expensive. Again, adapting.

2k? Try 5k, because that's what Rune Cages frequently crit for in PvP.

Unless you build for potato damage as a sorc, in which case you're doing it wrong because ironically you are playing the class that is allowed to ignore all health & defensive sets and just stack maximum damage with magicka as that improves your shield defense as well.

Maybe you should refrain from telling people to stack health (and as a result swap to bleed/DoT oriented meta playstyle).

Dionysus wrote: »

Here are examples of things msorcs are doing ONLY to counter specific classes/specs:

1. Slotting a HoT specifically for Sloads even though it doesn't synergize at all with our toolkit

Oh yes... heal over times, totally useless to replenish your health pool while hiding behind 30k shield stacks. Who needs those, right? What's the worst thing that could happen if shields suddenly dropped & you were still at 10% health...

Dionysus wrote: »

2. Magelight or Pots specifically for Cloak

Wrong, you can also reveal NBs with Streak, Boundless Storm & greatly hinder their cloaking by keeping Curse up on them. Sorcerer has the best tools in the entire game to counter cloak. All classes need to deal with it somehow.

Dionysus wrote: »

3. Having to give-up all triglyphs and spell power offensive sets to get shields to 19k shield strength, because with even 1k less than this and our shields and HP will go from full shields to 0 HP with one Dizzying>Dawnbreaker>Execute combo

Oh yes, what a shame... you have the option to stack full into damage (Magicka is just as good as Spell Damage) and still survive most of the things that would kill other classes/builds. If you're getting hit by unblocked/dodged Dizzying Swing you're doing it wrong btw - it's starting to make sense why you're defending Rune Cage.

Dionysus wrote: »

4. Slotting backup Lingering Health pots for particularly strong Oblivion or bleed builds

Slotting a strong potion (for any class/build) is somehow a negative? Am I missing something?

You know what my bow build is "forced to" do? I have to run weapon damage/crit/stamina potions. I'd love to be "forced to" run Lingering in a world where Major Brutality wasn't tied to 2H/DW abilities.

Dionysus wrote: »

5. Slotting Force Pulse specifically for DK wings

Force Pulse is a strong ability on its own & I run it on my mSorc. Perfect follow up for the Cage Frag Combo in case target is still alive since it lands almost instantly. Besides, here's a list of things that still go through wings: Fury explosion, Implosion, Curse (has same tooltip damage as Snipe btw), Rune Cage.

Things my bow build has that go through wings: Bombard, PI DoT damage.

Dionysus wrote: »

6. Curing vamp specifically for increased Summerset LA damage from other destro users

So no one should be a vampire? Wow, what a good thing for build diversity - thanks Rune Cage /s

Dionysus wrote: »

Is choosing between Wings, Mist, Immovable skill, Immovable poison, Purge, being a quicker-burst player, OR two lines of HP really worse than all the above, for you to be able to counter an entire class? Sorry this is hard for you.

I'd say slotting wings as a stamblade could prove a challenge, same as sustaining/finding an otherwise completely wasted skill slot for Mist as a medium stamblade. Immovable=heavy armor=cancer & Immovable Poison is possibly the worst idea ESO forums have ever witnessed. Ok, Purge is a strong contender as well.

And dropping 5-6k stamina to gain 5k health is going to kill any chance you have of bursting people down on a build that isn't built around bleeds, sloads & defiles - especially those sorcs with 30k shield stacks (already takes Ballista->Asylum Snipe+Assassin's Will to drop sorcs through shields if they don't dodge or block.

Also I find it funny you think by countering Rune Cage you counter the entire class. That's hilarious.

How did all these actual, skilled sorcs manage before Summerset made Rune Cage overpowered?

Dionysus wrote: »

Further, any comments on sorc "bads" crutching on Rune Cage are clearly missing the overall point about adapting and will probably keep losing for patches.

Here's the thing: there's a difference between "adapting" and "changing your entire playstyle/the way you like to play the game".

If I could have the playstyle I enjoy and still survive Rune Cage combos there wouldn't be any complaining now, would there?

Time to face the reality: many people don't enjoy playing tank builds. Many people don't enjoy slotting sloads & bleeds and Master DW. You can't tell these people to start doing something they don't enjoy, because it's much easier for these people to just quit the game and go play something they can enjoy. And that's not good for ZOS or this game.

All because of one ability.


And it's not even like these non-tank builds were the meta or overperforming and deserved to be "punished" & made less popular by 10k tooltip undodgeable/unblockable CCs.

"Tank builds" have been the meta for a looong time and Rune Cage is only pushing that meta further.

Dionysus wrote: »

I don't care if Rune Cage changes (as long as we don't get a random eye-gouging nerf to yet another sorc skill, probably Frags again or something), and would be ambivalent to losing it, as I'd love the extra barspace if we had a CC on Frags again. Interestingly I was using the same exact "Cage" combo pre-Summerset, except with underused Invig Drain/blockcancel on MagSorc landing the exact same combo constantly, and with similar Meteor>Invig>Merciless on Magblade (which I've played much more of) which melts well-mitigated players in heavy that msorcs still can't burst. I might've not had thumbs, as referenced desperately above, and still beat the player mentioning that with it. Don't think we won't use Master Flame Reach, Shock Clench, Ice staff root, Invig, Swarm Mother and Fire Rune, a baseball bat, or whatever the hell we need to. We'll adapt to whatever changes without having to beg ZoS every time we don't want to learn. You can choose to learn slower if you like, but you will have a worse time.

Tired but still willing to help,
Sorcs of Tamriel

There's a pretty big difference between something like Invigorating Drain & Rune Cage.

One has 12m range, is blockable & deals half the damage, other one 36m range, unblockable & deals twice the damage.

I can understand why you like the "upgrade".

You can even compare it to Destructive Reach & you'll notice it deals more damage while simultaneously also being unblockable/dodgeable and activates Sorcerer passives.


It is not about "adapting" or "not adapting", it is about an ability (no, not the class - sorcs are fine otherwise) quite simply overperforming no matter how you look at it.